Did humans systematically conquer goblins of Khorvaire, or intermittantly dispossess?

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I'm wondering about the human conquest of Khorvaire. There are two ways I could see it happening.

One posssibility is that the humans had a collective cultural norm, perhaps going back to Sarlona, that all of the lands of Khorvaire were theirs by right, and that goblins were fit only to be slaves. Whenever humans came across goblins, they systematically subjugated them as a matter of policy. The idea of recognizing a sovereign goblin state would probably be socially discouraged within human society.

The other is that humans gradually settled in Khorvaire. The got into conflicts with the goblins already there sometimes. The humans also got into conflicts with each other, and the goblins had conflicts with each other too of course. Sometimes human settlers would sign treaties with the goblins. Sometimes one side or the other would break the treaties. Sometimes humans would intervene in intra-goblin wars, sometimes goblins would intervene in intra-human wars, and sometimes wars would have both goblins and humans on both sides. Overall, though, goblins were, over the course of centuries, being dispossessed (although over a decade to decade basis, it might look like the goblins were making a comeback in some years, and some goblin tribes were doing well, allying with powerful human groups and using them to crush their long-standing goblin adverseries).

Which do you think is the more accurate picture? (there are some instances where it's clear. Karrn, for instance, wanted to systematically conquer all goblins. Then again, he wanted to conquer all humans too. He just succeeded with the former and failed at the latter. I'm talking about human settlement and subjugation as a whole, though, from Lhazaar's arrival to the present day.)

Or is neither one right, and is there some third possibility that I didn't mention that is a more accurate description?
Based on the established evidence and as laid out in the Grand History of Eberron, the answer is your second choice.
I'm thinking of a third option: Dhakaan and what constitutes as any kind of real goblinoid society on Khorvaire fell as a result of the daelkyr invasion into Eberron. Much like giant society fell to draconic forces from Argonessen following the invasion from Dal Quor, Dhakaan society was destroyed by the hordes of madness, and what remained of the goblinoids was later subjugated by Lhazaar's successors, most notably Karrn and Galifar.
I'd imagine it was a mix of human expansion, human colonization and focused wars meant to break the backs of the largest goblin tribes.
I'm thinking of a third option: Dhakaan and what constitutes as any kind of real goblinoid society on Khorvaire fell as a result of the daelkyr invasion into Eberron. Much like giant society fell to draconic forces from Argonessen following the invasion from Dal Quor, Dhakaan society was destroyed by the hordes of madness, and what remained of the goblinoids was later subjugated by Lhazaar's successors, most notably Karrn and Galifar.

Well, right. The Dhakaani Empire fell long before Lhazaar was born, but I'm asking about the human conquest. Yes, ultimately, the fall of the Roman Empire in the West was responsible for the Islamic conquest of Al-Andalus, but in a more proximal sense, we'd generally talk about the interactions between the Visigothic kingdoms that were actually ruling Hispania at the time and the Umayyads, and among the different Visigothic kingdoms.

UPDATE: Heck, given the 2000 year gap between the fall of Dhakaan and Lhazaar (~7 times as long as the period between the end of Roman rule in Spain and the Islamic conquest), it might be like attributing the poor performance of China in the face of Japanese invasion in the 1930-40s to the fall of the Qin dynasty. Then again, fantasy worlds tend to toss thousands of years of history around rather casually -- the Daelkyr invaded in -9000, and Dhakaan fell in -5000 allegedly due to the lingering effects of the Daelkyr invasion, which is somewhat like the contemporary Egyptians suffering from the lingering effects of the war between Herakleopolitans and Thebeans around 2000 BC.
I've always imagined the human conquest to involve at least one blanket with smallpox.
Well, right. The Dhakaani Empire fell long before Lhazaar was born, but I'm asking about the human conquest. Yes, ultimately, the fall of the Roman Empire in the West was responsible for the Islamic conquest of Al-Andalus, but in a more proximal sense, we'd generally talk about the interactions between the Visigothic kingdoms that were actually ruling Hispania at the time and the Umayyads, and among the different Visigothic kingdoms.

I'm under the impression that it was more akin to the arrival and spread of Europeans over the Americas at the expense of the natives.
by the time humans arrived the goblin empire was sick and wounded. the humans began came sections of Khorvaire using the same methods used against the Native Americans by European colonists. i also see that some races that the humans seen as less hostile allied themselves with the outlanders and in some cases aided them. The Zil aways find away to make themselves too useful to get rid of and the elves that became House Phiarlan would be no small amount of help. i could be wrong in this though....
The goblin empire -- or at least the Dhakaani Empire -- wasn't sick and wounded. The goblin empire was gone. It had been for approximately 2000 years. That's like saying "by the time Nazi Germany invaded Gaul, the Roman Empire was sick and wounded." :P Or at least that's my understanding.

As for the European conquest of the Americas, in that case both the "systematic conquest" and "intermittant dispossession" approaches can be seen. The Spanish conquest was basically more like the first approach -- they didn't recognize the sovereignty of native governments, and subjugated the areas they claimed through force in the name of the Spanish crown. On the other hand, the English took something more like the latter approach, generally establishing themselves in the New World, sometimes conquering, sometimes establishing treaties, but generally tending to become more established and taking more and more of what hand once been others' possessions.

(I'm not trying to repeat Black Legend type stuff here; I'm just saying that legally, the Spanish monarchy considered the Quechua to be Spanish subjects, and there were a lot of abuses involved (probably worse than, but not of a different order of magnitude than, the way the Spanish monarchy treated Castillian peasants.), while the English considered the Wampanoags to be foreigners, sometimes at peace with them and sometimes at war, with a lot of abuses involved (probably worse than, but not of a different order of magnitutde than, the way the English forces treated the French in Anglo-French wars).)
In general, when humans moved into an area, the goblins moved out as fast as they could.

Sometimes, the goblins attacked human settlements, fanatically and without apparent provocation of any kind. When that happened, the human settlers usually counter-attacked and killed or drove off the goblins.

It wasn't the diseases the humans brought with them. It wasn't some inherent superiority of the human way of life.

It was the stories. It was the stories told by goblin and hobgoblin bards through the centuries, through the millenia of the days of the fall of the Empire. Of what had once been the pride of goblin-kind, of how the Empire fell, and by whose hand.

Oral tradition, even among human societies, is very strong. We don't read much of Attic Greek anymore, but we know their stories. We still tell them. We still give our sons names like "Hector," and our daughters names like "Helen," and call our weaknesses "Achilles' heel," and the name of wily Odysseus—clever Odysseus!—still echoes in tales of travelers and voyagers to this day.

The tradition of oral history among the goblins of Khorvaire is even stronger: bards learn their songs and their stories word and melody and instrument together, and are beaten, sometimes savagely, if they do not play the proper note, do not sing the proper word as their master did, and his master before him, and her master before her.

So the dirge singers… they remember. They remember, and they warn the others. They know, in their brains that these… creatures… who come to Khorvaire cannot all be of that terrible kind, but… these humans have the coarse hair on top of their heads, the rounded ears, the smooth skin, the square-jawed faces, and the stubby teeth, exactly as the legends recall! And their hearts fail at the sight of these things.

If you, gentle reader, do not already understand, let me be clear: humans look exactly like daelkyr.

The illustration in the Eberron Campaign Setting is somewhat misleading, since it portrays a fully-equipped daelkyr, with various grafts, body armor, and a convenient tentacle-whip. But out of the armor, the visual resemblance is apparently quite striking.

Far from perceiving humanity as weak and disorganized, the majority of goblins saw humanity as young daelkyr, potentially creatures of madness incarnate, scions of those who had bought the Empire to ruin. An age of war, and millenia of dirge singer's tales, had taught generations of goblins what to do when the daelkyr come again.

Overcoming… not the intellectual awareness of humans as daelkyr, but the prejudice, the instinct to RUN! or, somewhat less often, KILL! when humans appeared—particularly those humans that we would call strong and handsome… required centuries on the part of the scattered goblin tribes.

By the time the instinctive awareness was overcome, goblins had become—in many cases literally—second-class citizens of their own lands.

Humans settled Khorvaire, driving all before them. But they were able to do so because the daelkyr had been there first. :D

—Siran Dunmorgan
Very impressive. Good to see a new post of yours Siran.
Resident Prophet of the Reformed OTTers We offer free desserts and second helpings.
*blinks*

*points to Siran's post*

That is just brilliant.
Based on the limited info in the books, I always imagined it as something like the Christian conquest of Al-Andalus, just on a much longer time scale. You've got a once-great culture now reduced to a collection of small, warring states. The humans show up, start forming alliances, conquering cities here and there, conducting raids, demanding tribute, etc. Nobody notices at first, but over the centuries a pattern develops: goblinoids are being pushed to the fringes or becoming second-class citizens within the nascent human states. After a while, human culture really starts to get going and humans become less and less accommodating towards goblinoids, eventually coming to see them as 'others' that have no real place in 'human' lands.
i believe that you are mischaracterizing the reconquista.

The Christians did not displace the Moors and Jews so much as assimilate them in their drive south... the laws were favorable (although not equal) to religious minorities, and Moslems and Jews continued to live in Christian territories until 1492.

It was not until after the final victory that the Moors and Jews were forced to convert or leave (in stark contradiction to the treaty that led to Granada's capitulation, which specifically guaranteed their continued ability to live in Christian-ruled Spain). So, if the situation were similar, Humans would have lived side-by-side with goblinoids until the 5 Kingdoms were established, at which point, they would have turned on the goblinoids and forced them into the desolation that is much of Khorvaire.

I don't think this was the case. It seems a lot softer than pre-Galifaran Khorvaire should be, and it implies that there was a need to keep goblinoids around--although they'd lost the skills of the Dhaakani millennia before.

I believe that the goblinoids were persecuted from the start, harassed, murdered, and burned out in the face of continued human invasions. It was much more like the Anglo-American settlement of the Americas--a genocide carried out for territory. In the end, the goblinoids were forced to the far corners of the realm, places where humans did not care to live (yet).
i believe that you are mischaracterizing the reconquista.

I think, rather, that you're assuming I make a lot of assumptions that I don't actually make. ;) That's probably because I was too brief in my post.

I'm in the midst of exams now, but this is a really interesting topic for me (I'm a medieval history nut and I love the Dhakaani of Eberron), so after I finish next week, I'll show you a break down of how the Christian conquest of Al-Andalus works (backed up with genuine academic sources--no wikipedia/'my high-school history teacher said...' :D ) and how this can provide an interesting model for the human conquest of Goblinoid Khorvaire. I definitely wouldn't say that my Spain-like scenario is THE correct interpretation of how the humans conquered the Goblinoids (that's really up to individual GMs and players), but I hope I can show you that it's an interesting one.
GENIUS BRILLIANCE

—Siran Dunmorgan

Dude, seriously, if you are ever anywhere near where I am or vice versa, you have to DM a one-shot Eberron game. PLEASE. PLEASE.
Yours, Dave the Brave