Warforged nerfed

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While i wasnt hoping/expecting warforged to be uber in 4E, i wasnt really expecting theyd be so bland. I mean really, now they are vulnerable to poison, just like the fleshies? And they dont have to breathe but they can now be effected by things that effect breathing creatures?

They apparently wear armor now as well. Im wondering if there will still be an Adamantine Body feat coming up in the june Dragon. What does a nake warforged look like now?
I was just as surprised as you are. Now, I know that if I want to play either a warforged or a ToB class I won't use 4th Ed.
I want to say I'm surprised, I really do, but I just can't.
They apparently wear armor now as well. Im wondering if there will still be an Adamantine Body feat coming up in the june Dragon. What does a nake warforged look like now?

From what I understood, they don't "wear" the armor, not like a human, just they can attach new things. Therefore improving their armor later, or if an enemy is killed, the human fighter can take it and use it like full plate.
From what I understood, they don't "wear" the armor, not like a human, just they can attach new things. Therefore improving their armor later, or if an enemy is killed, the human fighter can take it and use it like full plate.

No, their composite plating is gone entirely. They get nothing, and use armor as equipment like everybody else.
Er, um...did I miss a clear post or screen shot of the warforged? Can anyone direct me? All I've seen so far is that overly blurry one from the MM no one can make out.

∴ "Virtus junxit, mors non separabit." 

Er, um...did I miss a clear post or screen shot of the warforged? Can anyone direct me? All I've seen so far is that overly blurry one from the MM no one can make out.


Amazon.com and Buy.com broke the street date and shipped.
Er, um...did I miss a clear post or screen shot of the warforged? Can anyone direct me? All I've seen so far is that overly blurry one from the MM no one can make out.


There is also the Warforged captain talked about in this thread.
Amazon.com and Buy.com broke the street date and shipped.

Again? Didn't Wizards add a week delay to them because they did this before?
Again? Didn't Wizards add a week delay to them because they did this before?

Dunno, doesn't really matter though.
Warforged are officially nerfed.

They don't need to eat, breathe, sleep, etc, but they don't get immunity to any effects that depend on these. Which basically means its a non-ability. They don't have composite plating, they wear normal armor just like everybody else.

Basically, they simply are nothing like the 3e Warforged. To the point if you just saw the racial entry information without the name, you would not recognize them.

Shifters didn't fare much better.
I have a few good ideas for a forged PC so I would play one still. I played one in 3E bcause I thought the concept was fun, not because they were OP.
The shifters are not too bad IMO, actually. Free regeneration that can bring you back from the brink is pretty sweet. Its kind of funny though, i see lots of the races in teh back of the MM that would make better rogues than any of the PHB races (bugbears, im looking at you) and shifter look like theyd make pretty good strikers.

But back on topic, im really hoping warforged are getting some serious racial feats (i hear they are supposed to get a write up in the june Dragon) that give them back some of their uniqueness. As it stands, they dont really have much that ties them to their old incarnations.

I mean seriously, i dont have to breathe but im not immune to effects that involve breathing? So i dont have to breathe but i can still drown? What? Im made of fibers and metal but im not immune to poison?
I mean seriously, i dont have to breathe but im not immune to effects that involve breathing? So i dont have to breathe but i can still drown?

Apparently.
And Warforged have to trance like an elf now too.

4e Warforged are literally complete different beings. Pretty much everything that made them what they are, mechanically, has been removed. Its like whoever wrote the entry not only had no clue as to what the Warforged were supposed to be, but didn't even have access to an ECS to see what they were.

I mean, there is pretty much nothing here that is even remotely close.
Edymnion, you missed a lot of things they kept while search of what went missing.

  • They still go Inert.
  • They are still incredibly tough.
  • They are still living constructs.


It seems that they decided to focus on the living construct portion of the warforged.

Basically, they simply are nothing like the 3e Warforged. To the point if you just saw the racial entry information without the name, you would not recognize them.

You could say pretty much the same thing for almost all of the races.
I have (surprise) strong feelings about the warforged, but I'm going to wait until the books are officially out before I present my thoughts on the matter. I do encourage everyone to share their thoughts on this issue, now or later, because there's a key point here: these are not Eberron's warforged. These are warforged in the 4E Monster Manual. Warforged will certainly be dealt with in more detail in the 4E Eberron books, which means that if people are upset with the direction that's been taken with them, it's always possible they will be changed.

With that said, the lack of racial feats is critical... not to mention the possibility of racial paragon paths, component items, and on and on. The equivalent would be seeing the 3.5 warforged without knowing about the existence of Adamantine Body, the Warforged Juggernaut PrC, docents, or any of that. This is not to say that all issues will be resolved by any means - simply that it's certainly possible that things that we think of as core warforged features will instead be addressed by racial feats or other mechanics. The upcoming DDI article will surely address some of these - and the 4E Eberron books may do more.

But I'd certainly like to hear what people have to say on this issue, and I'm sure that other designers will be listening.
I can't wait for that article, thanks Keith. I have always loved the Warforged as they are in Eberron. What I would really like to see is more on the "Woeforged", and maybe some more templates that can be applied to the living contruct subtype, or whatever the 4e equivalent is. Always felt they were shafted a bit because of the type limitations.
Edymnion, you missed a lot of things they kept while search of what went missing.

* They still go Inert.
* They are still incredibly tough.
* They are still living constructs.


It seems that they decided to focus on the living construct portion of the warforged.

The inert below 0 factor is cool, but its really the only thing that ties them to the 3E version. Now it seems that dwarves are apparently better at resisting poison! lol

I do encourage everyone to share their thoughts on this issue, now or later, because there's a key point here: these are not Eberron's warforged. These are warforged in the 4E Monster Manual. Warforged will certainly be dealt with in more detail in the 4E Eberron books, which means that if people are upset with the direction that's been taken with them, it's always possible they will be changed.

Well, i suppose that is a possibility. I kinda figured the basic racial write up would be the same and thus it would be somewhat safe to base the eberron racial write-up on the core one. Im sure the living construct type details wont be something that will get redone for eberron though.

The whole "you dont need to eat, sleep or breathe but that doesnt render you immune to any effect" clause needs some re-wording IMO, and its part of the living construct subtype, not warforged in particular. They dont need to eat but isnt sarvation an "effect"? Drowning an "effect" of needing to breathe? Are they vulnerable to sleep spells now even though they dont sleep? They are going to need major re-fluffing.

With that said, the lack of racial feats is critical... not to mention the possibility of racial paragon paths, component items, and on and on.

I still do have a measure of hope that warforged will look a little more recognizable mechanics-wise once the article comes out in June. There are some things though, such as the 4-hour extended rest, that i dont see changing simply because the 4E system necessitates them, unfortunately.

I can't wait for that article, thanks Keith. I have always loved the Warforged as they are in Eberron. What I would really like to see is more on the "Woeforged", and maybe some more templates that can be applied to the living contruct subtype, or whatever the 4e equivalent is. Always felt they were shafted a bit because of the type limitations.

Oh yes! I need to remember to look up templates tomarrow in the DMG. Now warforged are natural humanoids, just like humans, so im sure there will be some wacky combos there. Vampire perhaps?
I can't wait for that article, thanks Keith.

Bear in mind that it's not my article; I'm just saying that it will surely offer more options.

I have always loved the Warforged as they are in Eberron.

Which is the key issue here. If you love the warforged as they are and end up disliking the new interpretation, it would be extremely valuable if you would take a moment to explain exactly what troubles you. If you feel that some important aspect has been lost, the more clearly you clarify exactly what that missing piece is, the greater the chance it will be restored in the 4E ECS.

And conversely, if you LIKE the changes - or like some things and dislike others - I'd like to hear from you as well. At least some of the changes that have been made are a response to complaints I've seen about the warforged in the past.

Again, I'll say more on the matter when everything is out in the open, but I do want to hear from as many Eberron players (or fans of the novels) as possible.
They still have some nifty abilities, like never rolling below 10 on certain saves, and gaining temp hp when they become bloodied.

Definitely rolling one up...if/when I do get around to buying 4e in the future...
I understand 4E is powered down from what 3.X was, but if they are warforged in name, and humanoid in nature I will be very disappointed. They can give them poison immunity, or at least a bonus to resistance, along with other benefits. The trade off could be that they don't get healing surges since they won't get hurt as often with improved defenses(whatever that might be), and less beneficial racial abilities.
Warforged as presented in ECS were well above the power level of all other standard PC races. I have no problem with them being nerfed down to match the other races.

I did not have the oppurtunity to GM warforged characters until a month ago when I started a new Eberron campaign. Their power was driven home in my eyes when they bascially two manned an enhanced mummy after laughing off the poison traps by just running into them to trigger it so the "fleshies" didn't die. Oh, and they're immune to the sickened condition on top of that. Awesome. If I play 3.X again, the warforged would be a +1 level adjusted race.

It's not surprising the were nerfed, and frankly, it's well deserved.
I did not have the oppurtunity to GM warforged characters until a month ago when I started a new Eberron campaign. Their power was driven home in my eyes when they bascially two manned an enhanced mummy after laughing off the poison traps by just running into them to trigger it so the "fleshies" didn't die. Oh, and they're immune to the sickened condition on top of that. Awesome. If I play 3.X again, the warforged would be a +1 level adjusted race.

Wait, so you basically did one encounter which heavily featured the exact things they were immune to, and you were surprised that the WF walked all over it? Have you tried playtesting elves by running them through an adventure filled with sleep spells yet?
I understand 4E is powered down from what 3.X was

Powered down? Oh uh uh, as a whole everybody has been powered up. The Eladerin have teleport as a racial ability for crying out loud.
Iknow this is slightly off topic (put still somehow connected) I've just looked at the 4th Ed MM list on these forums and saw Shifters and Warforged but no Changelings, when will we know about them or do we have to wait till next year? Keith can you help with this?
Iknow this is slightly off topic (put still somehow connected) I've just looked at the 4th Ed MM list on these forums and saw Shifters and Warforged but no Changelings, when will we know about them or do we have to wait till next year? Keith can you help with this?

Changelings = Doppelgangers

Seems like warforged are pretty simple, and while they've been powered down in some ways (no immunities any more), in others they are better (auto-stabilise is much more powerful now that it's so difficult to die by damage alone). Their racial power (warforged resolve, grants temp HP) is pretty good, but I get the feeling a more thematic power could have been chosen. I'm not sure what, though.

My impression of the warforged is that they need racial feats. Without them, they just feel like bare bones that just resemble the race. With a bit more crunch behind them, I think they'll turn out fine.
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Warforged as presented in ECS were well above the power level of all other standard PC races. I have no problem with them being nerfed down to match the other races.

I did not have the oppurtunity to GM warforged characters until a month ago when I started a new Eberron campaign. Their power was driven home in my eyes when they bascially two manned an enhanced mummy after laughing off the poison traps by just running into them to trigger it so the "fleshies" didn't die. Oh, and they're immune to the sickened condition on top of that. Awesome. If I play 3.X again, the warforged would be a +1 level adjusted race.

It's not surprising the were nerfed, and frankly, it's well deserved.

They are not any more powerful than dwarves are, and I guess you overlooked the fact that they can only be healed for half of what everyone else gets, and they are affected by many spells that also affect constructs.
?Powered down? Oh uh uh, as a whole everybody has been powered up. The Eladerin have teleport as a racial ability for crying out loud.

It depends on what level they get it, and many spells that are normally early spells are not gotten until later. The rituals replacing common spells is also a powerdown. Healing surges seems to bring power up but I dont know exactly how that works yet.
I have (surprise) strong feelings about the warforged, but I'm going to wait until the books are officially out before I present my thoughts on the matter. I do encourage everyone to share their thoughts on this issue, now or later, because there's a key point here: these are not Eberron's warforged. These are warforged in the 4E Monster Manual. Warforged will certainly be dealt with in more detail in the 4E Eberron books, which means that if people are upset with the direction that's been taken with them, it's always possible they will be changed.

With that said, the lack of racial feats is critical... not to mention the possibility of racial paragon paths, component items, and on and on. The equivalent would be seeing the 3.5 warforged without knowing about the existence of Adamantine Body, the Warforged Juggernaut PrC, docents, or any of that. This is not to say that all issues will be resolved by any means - simply that it's certainly possible that things that we think of as core warforged features will instead be addressed by racial feats or other mechanics. The upcoming DDI article will surely address some of these - and the 4E Eberron books may do more.

But I'd certainly like to hear what people have to say on this issue, and I'm sure that other designers will be listening.

This is about all I needed to hear, thanks Keith.

I do see now why the Changeling was not included in the MM, as the Doppelganger now really looks like changeling from Eberron.

∴ "Virtus junxit, mors non separabit." 

For me the critical issue with the new version of warforged will be this:
there must be aspects of warforged that warrant their creation by House Cannith for the Last War. If they're so nerfed that they're no better, or even worse, than other humaniods, then there's no point in their existence.

Especially keep in mind the concept of minions. With only 1 hp, what makes them better soldiers than a 1 hp human conscript minion, who can wield standard martial weapons at no penalty in 4ed? That's the critical question. If it doesn't have a sufficient answer via the standard 4ed version of warforged, it needs to be addressed for Eberron, because of their vital role in the setting. If they do have an advantage, then they're good to go with just some tweaking for a distinct Eberron feel. Time will tell.
For me the critical issue with the new version of warforged will be this: there must be aspects of warforged that warrant their creation by House Cannith for the Last War. If they're so nerfed that they're no better, or even worse, than other humaniods, then there's no point in their existence.

Especially keep in mind the concept of minions.

The fact that they have warforged resilience already makes them better than minions, which is what I presume most peasant levies and conscripts would be. It nicely reflects the 3.5 idea that all warforged were created with PC class levels, putting them above NPC warriors.

From a non-game-mechanical perspective, one could argue that there's all sorts of advantages (financial and otherwise) to creating a being with no family/history/biological relation to you and sending it off to war.
The fact that they have warforged resilience already makes them better than minions, which is what I presume most peasant levies and conscripts would be. It nicely reflects the 3.5 idea that all warforged were created with PC class levels, putting them above NPC warriors.

From a non-game-mechanical perspective, one could argue that there's all sorts of advantages (financial and otherwise) to creating a being with no family/history/biological relation to you and sending it off to war.

A minion is a minion, and soldiers are the minions of an army. All minions have only 1 hp, no matter what kind of creature they are. They get hit, they die. The trick is hitting them with something that does damage. It's now a lot easier to damage a warforged, so no more warforged units calmly walking through cloud kill while the fleshies keel over dead, or crossing that deep stream simply by walking on the bottom.

While some may argue that not having someone at home to fight for might give them less to fight for, the greatest advantage (which may offset any other limitation!) is that of time. It takes almost twenty years to "grow" a human soldier, after all!

Edit: another issue then is the difference between warforged and undead units. Now undead units are significantly better than warforged, when before it was almost a toss-up.
Especially keep in mind the concept of minions. With only 1 hp, what makes them better soldiers than a 1 hp human conscript minion, who can wield standard martial weapons at no penalty in 4ed? That's the critical question. If it doesn't have a sufficient answer via the standard 4ed version of warforged, it needs to be addressed for Eberron, because of their vital role in the setting. If they do have an advantage, then they're good to go with just some tweaking for a distinct Eberron feel. Time will tell.

The concept of warforged-all-have-PC-classes translates to 4E by saying there should be no 1st level minion warforged.
Your basic warforged might 3rd level soldiers, or 9th level minions, for example. In this case, either they are tougher than your average grunt (for the 3rd level soldier) or much, much more skilled and less likely to be hit (the 9th level minion).
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In my world, they still walk through water without issue. Poison has no effect, nor does lack of food or general temperature. They are affected by physical damage, and things that effect the lifeforce or mind, do cause issues... after all they are living and sentient.

But, beyond that, they are still constructs. They will also continue to be built with the option of full metal plating, partial metal plating or no plating, as deemed by their job in life. It was a houserule I admit, but I always invisioned that the construct underneither was more of a skeletal frame of magic and parts, the armor was attached via clamps and it was replaceable as a result.

∴ "Virtus junxit, mors non separabit." 

The concept of warforged-all-have-PC-classes translates to 4E by saying there should be no 1st level minion warforged.
Your basic warforged might 3rd level soldiers, or 9th level minions, for example. In this case, either they are tougher than your average grunt (for the 3rd level soldier) or much, much more skilled and less likely to be hit (the 9th level minion).

That's certainly a way to do it, but loading an army of a particular kind of creature up with 9 PC class levels just to make them more powerful doesn't seem very Eberronish to me (but maybe it's a 4ed Eberronish thing to do; I don't know.)

Besides, are there even NPC classes in 4ed? I haven't heard, except for Keith to say that the way that wizards are set up there's no longer any need for the magewright NPC class.
A minion is a minion, and soldiers are the minions of an army. All minions have only 1 hp, no matter what kind of creature they are. They get hit, they die.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. A DM can choose to portray warforged with minion-type stats, sure, but the DM can also decide that warforged units are supposed to be a serious threat, and therefore use the beefier monster rules. Either way, the temporary hit points from warforged resilience seem like they would be an advantage over human soldiers.
That's certainly a way to do it, but loading an army of a particular kind of creature up with 9 PC class levels just to make them more powerful doesn't seem very Eberronish to me (but maybe it's a 4ed Eberronish thing to do; I don't know.)

Yeah, it sounds like you're approaching this from a 3E perspective. Divorce yourself from the concept of monsters/NPCs and PCs following the same rules. A 9th level minion isn't the same as a 9th level PC. He hasn't had to level up that far, and he certainly isn't equivalent to a 9th level PC. You use 4 minions per PC after all. A 9th level minion is roughly equivalent to a standard 1st level monster (both worth 100XP).

Besides, are there even NPC classes in 4ed? I haven't heard, except for Keith to say that the way that wizards are set up there's no longer any need for the magewright NPC class.

No, there aren't any NPC classes from what I've read.
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Especially keep in mind the concept of minions. With only 1 hp, what makes them better soldiers than a 1 hp human conscript minion, who can wield standard martial weapons at no penalty in 4ed?

I'm not sure I understand your point here, Euangelion. I think you're asking if a warforged minion is better than a human minion. The point is that the typical warforged wouldn't be a minion, any more than he'd be a commoner in 3E. In 3E, the typical warforged is a level 2 fighter and the typical conscript is a level 1 commoner. In 4E, the typical conscript is a level 1-2 minion (I'd probably use the level two human minion provided in the MM, but you could always make a level one variation), while the typical warforged is a level 4 "soldier" with AC 20, 56 hit points (plus warforged resolve), and substantially better stats, defenses, and chance to hit than the human minions. I just ran a pair of these warforged against an endless horde of the 2nd level human minions in the MM; in an open space where the mob could maximize flanking, the warforged took down 13 of them; in a "300"-style holding-the-ten-by-ten-hallway scenario (in which the minions focused on the warforged one at a time, allowing them to bring one down and eventually flank the other) the two warforged defeated 34 minions.

Beyond that, I'm not sure I understand the statement that minion can wield martial weapons at no penalty; that's a DM call (the standard human "rabble" uses a club), and as a DM I'd give a peasant conscript leather armor, a spear, and no martial proficiency, just like a commoner levy in 3E. And as a minion, he doesn't even have the chance to do full damage with his spear.

So whatever one thinks about the 4E warforged, the simple existence of minions actually makes the warforged a stronger investment for an army - because the typical peasant level is a minion, and the typical warforged is not, any more than he was a commoner in 3E.
I'm not really sure what you're getting at. A DM can choose to portray warforged with minion-type stats, sure, but the DM can also decide that warforged units are supposed to be a serious threat, and therefore use the beefier monster rules. Either way, the temporary hit points from warforged resilience seem like they would be an advantage over human soldiers.

Well, I'm probably getting a little too worked up about stuff that won't really matter that much (like when a few years ago I got worked up about how the magewright NPC class is mangled mechanically in the ECS; nobody cares, and that's the way it should be.) I'd just like to see warforged work on all levels in 4ed as well as they did in 3.5, if not better (without a lot of gyrations, band-aids, or houserules).
The concept of warforged-all-have-PC-classes translates to 4E by saying there should be no 1st level minion warforged.

Right. The default warforged given in the book is a 4th level soldier. No minion version of warforged are given, though you could create one for use against high level PCs if you wanted. Again, making a warforged a soldier is the equivalent of what we've always said: that the warforged off the line was a trained fighter, not a commoner or warrior. That 4th level soldier DOESN'T have all the tricks a PC fighter has; if anything, he's sort of jumping into what used to be the warrior slot, superior to the commoner minion, but weaker than a true fighter of equal level.

But from a running-the-kingdom perspective, what you're dealing with is the ability to easily recruit minions from your peasant levies - or to purchase warforged soldiers. And given that my two warforged just killed 30 peasants, do you really want to sacrifice your subjects to that sort of meat grinder if you have an alternative? Mind you, you undoubtedly also have human soliders, such as those Trolls has developed or the "human guard"; but the point is that these are exceptional, not soldiers you can recruit in droves. Meanwhile, you can buy the warforged - just as it's always been, it's the chance to buy a soldier that is substantially better than your peasant minion.

And don't forget, the fact that warforged auto-stabilize means that they remain easier to recover from the battlefield - while those peasant minions go down hard.
I'd just like to see warforged work on all levels in 4ed as well as they did in 3.5, if not better (without a lot of gyrations, band-aids, or houserules).

The main thing is that the minion soldier is not unlike the first level commoner. The warforged soldier was never intended to be a first level commoner; if you make him that way, he's not necessarily a great investment in 3E. The fact that the typical warforged was a 2nd level fighter was always something that was part of their value - and the MM simply establishes that as part of their flavor.
The main thing is that the minion soldier is not unlike the first level commoner. The warforged soldier was never intended to be a first level commoner; if you make him that way, he's not necessarily a great investment in 3E. The fact that the typical warforged was a 2nd level fighter was always something that was part of their value - and the MM simply establishes that as part of their flavor.

I've always appreciated that even the most basic warforged coming off the assembly line was in game mechanics a fighter 2 and clearly superior to a standard soldier, much less a peasant conscript. Very cool stuff.

My main handicap at the moment is not having the new books in front of me, but I am very excited about the future of Eberron in 4E. I just need to get a better grasp of the whole minion/brute/elite/etc. thing, I guess.
Outside of KotS, I'm still waiting to get my hands on the 4E ruleset, so I haven't been able to compare/contrast 3.x warforged vs 4e warforged yet.

What I really liked about 3.x warforged fluff is specifically what Keith is saying: they come out of the creation forge as highly specialized elite soldiers and are worth more than your average peasant conscript. They are bred to be soldiers (300 being a perfect analogy). If Eberron sticks to this then I'm sure the mechanics will work themselves out. After a SoCal con this last weekend, a very skeptical player in my group is now sold on 4e--if he's okay with the new mechanics as a heavy RPer, then I'm sure I will be too (as a 50/50 role/roll-player).

Mechanically speaking, I like the 3.x living construct template. The immunities and vulnerabilities drawing from both the generic humanoid and the construct templates worked (for me). It is these immunities that make them [warforged] so valuable as a commodity in war, i.e. troops who don't tire, don't crack under pressure, don't get hungry, sleepy, or sick, and who are immune to a lot of the debilitating AoE magic that I imagine was used in the Last War to great effect versus peasant levies.

I also thought Composite Plating was an excellent handicap to overcome typical warforged resilience--unless they specifically took various racial (or other) feats to improve their AC, they couldn't gain additional AC benefits by anything that gives a +N armor bonus. While it put a handicap on certain class choices because of the arcane spell failure chance (along with the painful -2 CHA mod), that made sense--warforged were created to be the heavy-hitting fighters during the Last War. Non-fighter warforged are the exception (proving again how unique and special PCs are supposed to be in Eberron), so they just have to deal with the appropriate penalties.

For 4e I will very likely keep many of the mechanics from 3.x, but there will have to be certain concessions made to fit with the new rules. If warforged can't naturally heal, do/should they get healing surges? How important is it for warforged to now be vulnerable to things they were immune to before? If the old 3.x immunities render too many new 4e mechanics useless, then that would definitely necessitate some changes. But if it's just to take care of a perceived balance issue, I can certainly disregard whatever I want in my games.

One thing we have to keep in mind is that the people who are (or will be) working on 4e Eberron are just as much fans of the setting as the rest of us. I think we should probably wait & see what happens before foretelling the doom of our beloved warforged.

In the end, it is a game designed to be fun. If there are certain things that are not fun for people, they are certainly within their rights to change what they want. The rules are not sacrosanct. That being said, I would still love to see the 4e ruleset for Eberron remain as true as possible to the source material--it would save me a lot of trouble converting things myself.
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