[DtB] - CounterTop Aggro-Control

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CounterTop



What is CounterTop: CounterTop is a general name for Threshold evolutions featuring the Counterbalance/Top soft lock. This archetype originated after the end of the Flash era, as Threshold decks split into TempoThresh (which runs heavy land destruction elements; a derivant of this is the more black-based Team America) and Counterbalance Thresh (which runs CounterTop; a further derivant of this archetype is Dreadstill).

Furthermore, "Legacy Blue/Threshold" is defined as base-blue decks featuring Brainstorm, Force of Will, [usually] Daze, Brainstorm (often with other cantrips), and splashes for Tarmogoyf and [almost always] Krosan Grip. It almost always splashes a third color, and often a fourth.

Card Choices



Creatures

These slots are limited, as there are a number of auto 4-of spells that are run, and this archetype has great control over the cards it draws.

Tarmogoyf - The best creature in Legacy, if not the whole game. Consistently a 4/5 or bigger for 2 mana. The reason this deck always plays green. 4-of, no questions.

Sower of Temptation - While quite vulnerable, it's one of the biggest blowouts in Legacy. Steal Goyf + 2/2 flier. At 4 mana, it almost always gets around an opposing Counterbalance. Usually a 2-of.

Dark Confidant - Powerful creature that acts as a Phyrexian Arena on legs, draws you 2 cards a turn for a small amount of life, probably the second-best creature in Legacy. Run 4 if you run it.

Trinket Mage - Usually present only in builds with Explosives in addition to a "toolbox" of cheap artifacts, as getting Top isn't reason enough to run a 2/2 for 3. Good anti-Counterbalance card with Explosives. Run 2-3 in such decks.

Trygon Predator - Mainly included for the mirror, also wrecks certain decks (cough Stax). Slow but excellent at its job, especially as it's good at getting by Counterbalance. Optional 2-of, potential sideboard material.

Vendilion Clique - Highly efficient flier with a disruptive CIP ability that's seeing more and more play. Optional 1-3 of.

Nimble Mongoose - Occasionally crops up in CounterTop lists. Shroud is very relevant when your threats are limited. He's great at stalling aggro, too. Optional 3-4 of.

Rhox War Monk - Excellent tool for fighting aggro, though has a restrictive cost, which is very relevant if the opponent's Wasted you. Effective at racing Goyf as well. Optional 1-3 of, potential sideboard material.

Werebear - With the printing of Tarmogoyf, he's rarely seen in lists now, as he's simply smaller and worse at Goyf's job, while vulnerable to the same type of removal. Don't run him.



Spell choices


Brainstorm - Arguably the best spell in Legacy. Lets you see 3 fresh cards for 1 mana, and shuffle the junk away with a fetchland. 4-of, no questions.

Ponder - The best true cantrip in Legacy, better at searching than Brainstorm, though don't run it over Brainstorm. Good at filling empty deck space. Optional.

Force of Will - While card disadvantage, it counters anything for a card and a life. Keeps combo in check, keeps major threats/answers at bay; don't waste it on less relevant plays.

Daze - Classic for its ability to just blow out opponents in the early turns. Though often played around, it's devastating when it does its job properly, and having the opponent waste time playing around it is great in a tempo-oriented format like Legacy. As most spells are cheap, picking up a land isn't much of a cost. 3-4 of unless you have good reasons.

Spell Snare - Many of the best spells in Legacy are 2-mana spells, such as Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, and Counterbalance. Narrow, but does its job extremely well. Optional.

Engineered Explosives - The best board wipe in Legacy, cheap and devastating, and tutorable by Trinket Mage, which it's usually found in decklists with. Can be easily forced through a Counterbalance by paying extra mana. Optional 1-3 of.

Swords to Plowshares - The best spot removal a non-aggro deck could ask for. Cheap and almost unrivaled at doing its job. 4-of if you play white.

Fire//Ice - Versatile card good at winning Goyf wars, stopping aggro decks, or denying mana. Optional.

Thoughtseize - Preemptively answers any nonland card for and 2 life. Optional.

Sensei's Divining Top - Mana-hungry, but fixes draws like no other card once up and running, forms part of a soft lock with Counterbalance. 3-4 of.

Counterbalance - Forms a soft lock with Top (as almost everything's cheap), decent on its own (as everything is low mana, it's a decent chance at countering by blind flipping on a 1 or 2 mana spell). 3-4 of if you run Top.

Vedalken Shackles - A more recent innovation made popular by Nassif and Probasco. Late-game recursive Control Magics. Optional 1-2 of.

More to be added.


Sideboard

Krosan Grip - Most common sideboard card in Legacy, uncounterable Disenchant (except by triggered abilities). 3-4 of in all sideboards.

Tormod's Crypt - Fast, cheap graveyard hate.

Relic of Progenitus - Hurts your own Goyf, but the enemy's as well, and does Crypt's job at the same time.

Firespout - Pyroclasm able to be aimed specifically at the air or gound, also can wipe a Merfolk player's board even if he has 2 lords.

Pyroclasm - A popular sideboard option against creature decks, cheap and effective.

Pithing Needle - General answer to many popular cards, usually found in decks with Trinket Mage.

Engineered Plague - Excellent answer to Merfolk, Goblins, Survival Elves, and Aluren.

More to be added.


Lands

Polluted Delta - Fixes your mana and shuffles your library. 3-4 of.

Flooded Strand - See Polluted Delta. 3-4 of.

Volcanic Island, Tropical Island, Underground Sea, Tundra - Add based on your colors, 3-4 of each appropriate one.

Island - Basics protect you from Wasteland and the likes, help you establish a solid manabase. 1-2 of.

Academy Ruins - Optional 1-2 of in builds with Engineered Explosives.




Decklists




4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flooded+Strand" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Flooded+Strand">Flooded Strand</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Polluted+Delta" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Polluted+Delta">Polluted Delta</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Underground+Sea" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Underground+Sea">Underground Sea</a>
3 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tropical+Island" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tropical+Island">Tropical Island</a>
3 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tundra" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tundra">Tundra</a>
2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Island" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Island">Island</a>

4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark+Confidant" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Dark+Confidant">Dark Confidant</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tarmogoyf" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tarmogoyf">Tarmogoyf</a>
2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sower+of+Temptation" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Sower+of+Temptation">Sower of Temptation</a>
2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trygon+Predator" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Trygon+Predator">Trygon Predator</a>

4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sensei%26%238217%3Bs+Divining+Top" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Sensei%26%238217%3Bs+Divining+Top">Sensei&#8217;s Divining Top</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brainstorm" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Brainstorm">Brainstorm</a>
2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ponder" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Ponder">Ponder</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Counterbalance" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Counterbalance">Counterbalance</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Force+of+Will" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Force+of+Will">Force of Will</a>
3 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Daze" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Daze">Daze</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Swords+to+Plowshares" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Swords+to+Plowshares">Swords to Plowshares</a>
2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vedalken+Shackles" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Vedalken+Shackles">Vedalken Shackles</a>
1 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krosan+Grip" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Krosan+Grip">Krosan Grip</a>




[deck=Andy Probasco, 2nd place GP Chicago]
4 Flooded Strand[/c]
4 Polluted Delta[/c]
3 Tropical Island[/c]
2 Volcanic Island[/c]
1 Underground Sea[/c]
6 Island[/c]
2 Academy Ruins[/c]

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage
3 Sower of Temptation

4 Sensei&#8217;s Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
3 Duress
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Hydroblast
2 Tormod&#8217;s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
[/deck]

[deck=Darwinism by gamegeek2]
Syke! I'm playing in the MWS tournament!!! (will be added later)
[/deck]

More to be added.


Matchups

To be added.
I would also include a decklist for Natural Order Threshold.
Can you change the banner so it doesn't break the website?

Just because Nassif's SB sucked doesn't mean you should omit it.

Can you explain why to play this over Landstill? The two seem similar, at least on paper. Both run countertop, goyf, and a decent control engine.

"There are some who call me...Tim?" Go Duke! I apologize for my lack of grammar, spelling, and coherence in my posts. Former Member: Team ABS

http://www.nogoblinsallowed.com/

;19100263']Can you change the banner so it doesn't break the website?

This has to different resolutions and non-wide screen computers, something a lot of people don't consider when making a banner (including myself at times). Most people just look at it on there screen and if it works they think its good. You could get around this by setting your own computer at its lowest resolution and checking it by eye, or use a width of 750 pixels wich is slighter less than the wizards banner at the top of the forums. 800 is also the width of low resolution computers, which makes 750-775 fairly safe, although I often take it right below 800. Doing either of these should make other viewers of your banner happy.

Changed the banner.
Might as well include Megaman as a variant here... since its MD can be up to a 54 card mirror of nasif countertop... Its really the same archtype.
;19100263']Can you change the banner so it doesn't break the website?

Just because Nassif's SB sucked doesn't mean you should omit it.

Can you explain why to play this over Landstill? The two seem similar, at least on paper. Both run countertop, goyf, and a decent control engine.

Landstill doesn't usually play CounterTop or Goyf, actually. CounterTop is better against combo and slightly better against aggro, but Landstill is better against CounterTop and (I believe) other Threshold variants.
Landstill doesn't usually play CounterTop or Goyf, actually. CounterTop is better against combo and slightly better against aggro, but Landstill is better against CounterTop and (I believe) other Threshold variants.

Ah, I see the difference now. For some reason I was under the impression that this was a evolution of the Landstill engine.

Ever since Nassif and Brassman ran this deck's numbers have been rising. There has to be a better name for it though...

"There are some who call me...Tim?" Go Duke! I apologize for my lack of grammar, spelling, and coherence in my posts. Former Member: Team ABS

http://www.nogoblinsallowed.com/

;19120547']Ah, I see the difference now. For some reason I was under the impression that this was a evolution of the Landstill engine.

Ever since Nassif and Brassman ran this deck's numbers have been rising. There has to be a better name for it though...

I usually just refer to it as Next Level Blue, as it is a port of the Extended deck of the same name.
;19120547']Ah, I see the difference now. For some reason I was under the impression that this was a evolution of the Landstill engine.

Ever since Nassif and Brassman ran this deck's numbers have been rising. There has to be a better name for it though...

Names include:
Next level blue (NLU)
Countertop/goyf
Chase rare control
Previous level blue
Some level blue
(insert random name here) level blue

Although it does run some familiar cards to many blue decks: Force of will, Daze, brainstorm...

The deck should not be confused with: Landstill, dreadstill, merfolk, or threshold... each of which is a unique teir 1-1.5 archetype with a very different game plan:

Landstill is a true control deck: counter everything, runs only a couple of win conditions, you stabilize = you win. The deck runs the heaviest control/permission suite in legacy, standstill to "lock" the board and supply you with card advantage when you need it, and will often run tutoring and a toolbox board. The deck almost always shuns creatures except for eternal dragon who functions more as a land fetcher and deck thinner than a threat. It relies instead on its mishra's factories and a couple of decree of justices as its game winners as they dont break standstill (cycle decree of justice as instant at end of opponents turn for a bunch of 1/1s, they dont actually CAST it for the 4/4 flyers).

Merfolk is an aggro control deck with a more linear game plan focusing on the aggro portion heavily... it runs a limited counter suit and seeks to abuse ather vial to put creatures into play while resolving a standstill, running jite and 8 lords it can and does beat its opponent down fast.

Countersliver is similar to merfolk but has a touch more control to it, but still seeks to acheive controll via its creatures rather than spells...

Dreadstill is a combo/aggro/control deck (yes its really kinda all 3) whos game plan actually changes depending on the opponent its playing: they run a heavy land denial suite, a moderately heavy counter suite, can run the top/counterballence combo, run goyf and factory for beats, and dreadnought for end game winning or beat down if they want to try and win by turn 4.

Tempo Threshold (AKA Canadian Threshold) is an aggro deck with light control: it seeks to resolve a threat or two early then defend that threat while beating you down with it and throwing burn cards at you... they do NOT win the game via their control however and do NOT run standstill nor countertop.

NLU is an aggro/control deck that seeks to soft lock the board then resolve a threat and beat their opponent down while defending the threat ... it is not as fast at doing this as threshold, however when its lock is in place it takes the opponent longer to stabilize against it... unlike decks that run standstill it does not seek to lock the board down permanently.
Threshold is an aggro deck with light control: it seeks to resolve a threat or two early then defend that threat while beating you down with it and throwing burn cards at you... they do NOT win the game via their control however and do NOT run standstill nor countertop.

Well, Tempo Thresh doesn't. NLU hasn't completely replaced CounterTop Thresh, though.
err, id argue that countertop thresh and NLU fall under the same archtype and that archtype is different from the tempo thresh (ie canadian thresh)
err, id argue that countertop thresh and NLU fall under the same archtype and that archtype is different from the tempo thresh (ie canadian thresh)

I agree with this. I was just pointing out that you should have said Tempo Threshold rather than just Threshold in your previous post, as there are still Threshold decks that play CounterTop.

EDIT: Unless, of course, we don't consider builds like mine Threshold anymore, which is fair, considering they don't actually play any creatures with Threshold.

Anyways, here's my current list:

18 Land
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains

13 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendillion Clique

29 Other Spells
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Sideboard
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Chill
3 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
3 Path to Exile
Fixed

Id call that decklist to be NLU, specifically the "Bant" variant. I am currently running the "MegaMan" variant aka painters/grindstone variant: (very close to gearheart's)

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage
2 Painter’s Servant

Artifacts:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grindstone
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

Spells:
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Mana:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island


Sideboard:
2 Spell Snare
3 Krosan Grip
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Grindstone
2 Painter’s Servant
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Pithing Needle

The decks 0 basic lands is its primary weakness.

Basis of the deck is obviously Nassif countertop which is a 54 card mirror MD.
Is Dark Confidant worth the manabase issues? I'd lean towards yes in a typical metagame (ie, not lots of Sui and other decks with lots of mana denial).
Matchups: the problem with these is they are EXTREEMLY dependant on what version of the deck your running, in general however this is what id say:

Control:

Mirror: Bant archtypes are probably the strongest here.

Landstill: Unfavorable unless your running Bant subtype then it becomes neutral to favorable.

Dreadstill: Favorable unless your running megaman, then their land denial hurts badly. Very favorable for bant, pridemage wrecks them.

Combo:

Belcher: very favorable, of course this is generally the case for any deck running FoW and Daze.

Ichorid: sucks.

ANT: favorable because of countering


Aggro:

*Merfolk: Unfavorable unless your running the Megaman subtype, then it becomes neutral.

Rock: Favorable for all subtypes (everything in their deck costs 1, 2, or 3 to play which is what countertop hits, their game plan involves resolving 1-2 creature threats generally, fortunately youve got a nice fat wall called goyf to hold them off)

*Goblins: unfavorable unless your running Megaman subtype, then it becomes favorable.

Affinity: Favorable in most versions, the fact that most versions run some combo of krosan grip, spell snare, pridemage, FoW, Daze, goyf to block with, and some form of removal, means that the ravager/atog should have a tough time actually getting on the table and getting in for damage.

Zoo: Neutral unless your playing Bant, then favorable.



* = assuming your not running somthing crazy like tabernacle in the board... this one REALLY helps in these matchups...
Affinity is not favorable. Affinity wrecks this archetype. Krosan Grip is good, but I've played through 3 Krosan Grips from Dreadstill and won through multiple Goyfs in that same game - against David Gerheart.a

Versions with Pridemage are neutral, but most Nassif or Brassman builds are favorable.
Storm combo is favorable, because you have countermagic, a decent clock, and CounterTop.

Ichorid is very difficult because you can't really do anything unless you get lucky and counter their only discard outlet or they have a slow draw and you win with Goyf.

Zoo is slightly favorable to unfavorable, depending on your build.
Affinity is not favorable. Affinity wrecks this archetype. Krosan Grip is good, but I've played through 3 Krosan Grips from Dreadstill and won through multiple Goyfs in that same game - against David Gerheart.a

Versions with Pridemage are neutral, but most Nassif or Brassman builds are favorable.

Game 1 flat sucks for me though... ill admit that...

Affinity has to hit their curve and hard and NLU packs alot of answers...

On the other hand perhaps the reason i have so little trouble with them is because of the version I run (affinity is fast, but even they have trouble killing in 3 turns which is what they gotta do if they wanna race... either that or prevent the combo from going off by resolving a pithing needle or sharpnel blasting the painter (the latter of which is a HUGE tempo advantage for me, they are 2 mana, 1 artifact, and 5 damage down)) being both the beatdown and the controll in the matchup helps i guess.
Thoughts on cutting Mystic Enforcer for Vendillion Clique in my build? I've been considering it lately, and Clique has tested well.
I like clique alot better than enforcer in your deck...

www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17801...

This guy agrees too.
I've been playing with Vendillion Clique over Enforcer and it's been working well. I'm still looking for something better in that slot, though.
I assume you have four pridemage if you ever had Enforcer?
I assume you have four pridemage if you ever had Enforcer?

Yeah, I have 4 Qasali Pridemage. My current list is in post #13.
Read the PM I sent you. Before I leave, I wanted to get that in.
Read the PM I sent you. Before I leave, I wanted to get that in.

Done and responded to. It wasn't very in-depth, though, so I might do some testing and come back with a longer PM.

Land
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island

Creatures                           
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendillion Clique

Other Spells                      
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Krosan Grip

Sideboard
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Krosan Grip


Thoughts on this?  It's been doing really well, but I'm not sure what to put in the spot currently occupied by Krosan Grip.  That may be the best card for the job, but even so, I haven't been very impressed with it.  If I did end up cutting the Grip for something, I'd add a third Grip to the sideboard.

Looks solid. I still like red more as it gives you excellent sideboard options.

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Trinket Mage

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Snare
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Vedalken Shackles

--- Sideboard ---
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroblast
3 Firespout
2 Spell Snare
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Threads of Disloyalty


Threads of Disloyalty is...amusing against the Ugbw version.


Looks solid. I still like red more as it gives you excellent sideboard options.




Have you seen that Japanese list with maindeck Firespout and Rhox War Monk?  I got manhandled by it playing Zoo.  It's a real aggro-killer.

I dislike the monk, it's great against Zoo but awful against Merfolk, they have Stifle and Wasteland and you don't want a 3 color card against LD.

20 Land
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island

11 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vendilion Clique

29 Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Ponder


15 Sideboard
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Mind Harness

I've got to ask..... Why Clique over RWM? RWM just seems so much better. With lifelink, 3 casting cost, and a 3/4 body, it can normally hold it's own in Goyf Wars and just beatface unanswered.

I play Legacy only, and a little EDH. 2009 UGr Dreadstill 1st place KC Legacy Nationals UGR Tempo Thresh ***th place GP Chicago BUG Vial Affinity Petal Powered Ichorid EDH MonoU Arcum'sLattice I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green
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Vendilion Clique is easier to cast against LD and is better against Landstill, combo, and (from what I've seen) the mirror. 

RWM was made popular while played in a format with almost no land destruction (Japan Legacy Champs). Don't count on getting 3 colors quickly against Merfolk and Goblins. Against Zoo, it should be easy to get through, and there it can make a big splash.


Vendilion clique is far superior in the mirror, as it's instant speed, gives you valuable information and hand disruption, and flies, which is very important as it breaks Goyf stalls. It can also lead to a Savage Beating against Sower of Temptation, which is usually protected with CounterTop - and Clique costs 3. Not to mention how funny it is to cast Vendilion Clique in response to Standstill.

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Vedalken Shackles


--- Sideboard ---
4 Pyroblast
3 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt


2 Spell Snare


1 Threads of Disloyalty


Playing this tomorrow at a local 10-proxy tournament. Very confident in the list, and comfortable playing the deck.

This is my first go round with ProBant and was wanting some feedback about my decklist. I was thinking about taking it to SCG 5k in December but I'm not sure if it's right for the meta. My list:

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Rhox War Monk
2x Trygon Predator
2x Sower of Temptation

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Ponder
4x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Vedalken Shackles

4x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
1x Scalding Tarn
4x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains

SB:
3x Firespout
2x REB
1x Pyroblast
3x BEB
2x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus

I know for starters I need more Tundra's (working on that) but I'm having trouble deciding between 4 creature control slots and whether or not Sower is good anymore. Sometimes Sower sticks and goes all the way but most of the time it eats a Bolt or Edict and another creature gets to keep on beating (whether it's mine or theirs). Is 2 Shackles good enough or are the Sowers needed as well? I want to fit 2 Jitte in here, depending on the Sowers or Shackles, 2 Jitte might be making their way in. Thoughts?

I play Legacy only, and a little EDH. 2009 UGr Dreadstill 1st place KC Legacy Nationals UGR Tempo Thresh ***th place GP Chicago BUG Vial Affinity Petal Powered Ichorid EDH MonoU Arcum'sLattice I am Blue/Green
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I don't really like Sower right now; if anything, play Threads of Disloyalty if you really want the creature steal.  Otherwise, maybe max out on Top and Daze. 

I posted my tourney report on this forum and on the Source.


I don't really like Sower right now; if anything, play Threads of Disloyalty if you really want the creature steal.  Otherwise, maybe max out on Top and Daze. 





I was thinking about maxing the Top and Daze, especially with 4 Hierarch, 4 Daze seems good. What are your guys thoughts on the Hierarch? I mean, it can run out some pretty nice turn 2 plays and on turn 3 can cast and equip a Jitte to swing with a 4/5 RWM. My only concerns with it right now is that it seems like a horrible top deck, but the Exalted could make up for that. I really want creature steal, game 1 a resolved Knight of the Reliquary can be brutal to deal with, and StP is a major pain there when they gain like 8-10 life from one. Path is an option but giving them land is unacceptable.

Thoughts on creature stealing in this deck, is it worth it, or should I just replace it?
I play Legacy only, and a little EDH. 2009 UGr Dreadstill 1st place KC Legacy Nationals UGR Tempo Thresh ***th place GP Chicago BUG Vial Affinity Petal Powered Ichorid EDH MonoU Arcum'sLattice I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

Hierarch is a pretty good card in general.  Having Natural Order pushes it up to an auto-include, but otherwise I wouldn't bother.  It's capable of producing some pretty busted plays.  You're right about it being a bad topdeck, but even then it has some uses.  Giving your Goyf exalted so it can beat your opponent's, for example.


I like having 4 creature steal between the maindeck and sideboard, with no less than 2 MD.  How exactly you configure it is really a metagame call, IMO.