[DtW] - Team America

57 posts / 0 new
Last post

IMAGE(<a href="http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGFUT/tarmogoyf.jpg" title="http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGFUT/tarmogoyf.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGFUT...</a>)IMAGE(<a href="http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGFUT/tombstalker.jpg" title="http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGFUT/tombstalker.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGFUT...</a>)IMAGE(<a href="http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGALL/force_of_will.jpg" title="http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGALL/force_of_will.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGALL...</a>)
IMAGE(<a href="http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGLOR/thoughtseize.jpg" title="http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGLOR/thoughtseize.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGLOR...</a>)IMAGE(<a href="http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGBET/sinkhole.jpg" title="http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGBET/sinkhole.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGBET...</a>)IMAGE(<a href="http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGICE/brainstorm.jpg" title="http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGICE/brainstorm.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGICE...</a>)

Team America

IMAGE(<a href="http://www.celluloid-dreams.de/content/images/kritiken-filmbilder/team-america-world-police/team-america-world-police-1.jpg" title="http://www.celluloid-dreams.de/content/images/kritiken-filmbilder/team-america-world-police/team-america-world-police-1.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.celluloid-dreams.de/content/images/k...</a>)

IMAGE(<a href="http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee215/Hodoku/UB.gif" title="http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee215/Hodoku/UB.gif" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee215/Hodoku...</a>)



What is Team America - Team America was originally developed as a joke on The Source, called "Europe" because it was full of cards popular in European Legacy but rarely seen in American legacy. Once serious testing began, Dark Confidant was removed, green was added in for Goyf, and the deck started to perform well. In that the 2008 The Source Anniversary Tournament, two people played it. Dan Signorini/nitewolf9 managed to Top 4 with the deck, bringing it to the front of the community's attention. As the largest Legacy community on the Internet, what's hot on The Source gets hot elsewhere quickly. Its legitimacy as a deck was confirmed when it made Top 2 in the hands of Justing Cheung at the World Team Championships.

What makes this deck - Team America is an attempt to hybridize the most successful elements of Threshold and Suicide Black/Eva Green decks. It takes the free counterspells and draw-fixers from Threshold and combines them with the amazing Tombstalker, Snuff Out, LD, and discard. For good measure, it also plays Stifle and the best creature ever, Goyf. This deck generates massive tempo with its 12 free spells, its finishers are cheap and extremely efficient, and it brings everything together in a simple but elegant package.

Decklists



4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wasteland" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Wasteland">Wasteland</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Polluted+Delta" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Polluted+Delta">Polluted Delta</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flooded+Strand" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Flooded+Strand">Flooded Strand</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Underground+Sea" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Underground+Sea">Underground Sea</a>
2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tropical+Island" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tropical+Island">Tropical Island</a>
1 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bayou" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Bayou">Bayou</a>
1 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bloodstained+Mire" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Bloodstained+Mire">Bloodstained Mire</a>

4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tombstalker" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tombstalker">Tombstalker</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tarmogoyf" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tarmogoyf">Tarmogoyf</a>

4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brainstorm" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Brainstorm">Brainstorm</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ponder" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Ponder">Ponder</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stifle" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Stifle">Stifle</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Force+of+Will" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Force+of+Will">Force of Will</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Daze" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Daze">Daze</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thoughtseize" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Thoughtseize">Thoughtseize</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Snuff+Out" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Snuff+Out">Snuff Out</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sinkhole" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Sinkhole">Sinkhole</a>

4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tormod%27s+Crypt" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tormod%27s+Crypt">Tormod's Crypt</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blue+Elemental+Blast" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Blue+Elemental+Blast">Blue Elemental Blast</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krosan+Grip" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Krosan+Grip">Krosan Grip</a>
3 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Diabolic+Edict" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Diabolic+Edict">Diabolic Edict</a>



[deck=Dan Signorini, 1st place Dream Wizards Legacy]
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
4 Stifle

3 Diabolic Edict
3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Reanimate
4 Tormod's Crypt
[/deck]

I remember playing against Daniel in the Swiss (Dream Wizards is my local store, I live about 15 minutes away). I was running Affinity (a far less tuned and optimized version than the one I have now). Team America is generally a good matchup for Affinity, but I got color-screwed, unable to drop Master both games, and got my face beat in by Goyfs.

[deck=Justin Cheung, Top 2 2008 World Team Championships]
1 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Snuff Out
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize

1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
1 Duress
1 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Tormod's Crypt
[/deck]

As you see in the decklists, the MD card choices really speak for themselves. The deck is 4-ofs down the line in the MD and a manabase that varies only by fetchland numbers. The only real consideration is Hymn to Tourach vs. Sinkhole - in a meta with more blue-based aggro-control, Hymn is the better card; with more multicolor decks such as Survival and Rock, Sinkhole is the stronger choice. However, Sinkhole is still strong against the land-light Threshold, and can be crippling in tandem with Wasteland.


Sideboard

Tormod's Crypt - Absolutely necessary to fight Dredge. Also good against some random decks like 43land.dec and anything that relies heavily on the graveyard. Always pack four.

Diabolic Edict - Excellent creature removal. Running 3 is highly recommended.

Hydroblast - For goblins, burn, and other heavily red decks.

Krosan Grip - Uncounterable answer to Top/Balance and Dreadnought. Artifacts and enchantmens are very relevant in this format in general.

What's so special about this deck? There aren't variables. It's a set list. "Let's take MUC and add in Rock finishers!" Amazing?

EDIT: U/B control + goyf
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
It's a simple yet elegant deck that combines the best elements from Eva Green and Threshold.

I would add matchups, but I need to get some actual rest, got some big tests tomorrow.
What's so special about this deck? There aren't variables. It's a set list. "Let's take MUC and add in Rock finishers!" Amazing?

Hmm? This is much closer to Eva Green crossed with Tempo Thresh than MUC with The Rock. Regardless, just because it's not particularly creative doesn't mean it isn't good.

EDIT: Sarnath'd by seven minutes. That post took a long time to write.

These are what I consider the main points of the deck:
-Cantrips. These are pretty self-explanatory; basically the core of Gro and Thresh decks for years now.
-Cheap but efficient beaters. Again, self-explanatory. Who doesn't want a 5 power creature for two mana?
-Free spells in Snuff Out, Daze, and Force of Will. You really do gain massive amounts of tempo with this deck, and your curve is very low.

These three have formed the basis for every Threshold deck in Legacy and it has been proven to be a very potent shell for some time now. However, Team America adds some new elements:

-Mana denial. Between Sinkhole, Stifle, and Wasteland, you can completely cripple an opponent's manabase. It also makes Daze even better than it already is.
-Thoughtseize. It's great against any control, aggro-control, or combo deck out there. This has been played very successfully in UGb Threshold for a while.

You can also replace Sinkhole with Hymn to Tourach, weakening your mana disruption package for even more hand disruption. This is essentially a metagame call; there's no right or wrong choice. Other than that, I really don't think you should mess with the maindeck. It's very solid as-is. The manabase could be better against Moon effects, but I'm not sure how.
Yeah, it's a hybrid goodstuff deck; it plays the best and most efficient cards. It features

The best creature ever (Tarmogoyf), alongside the evasive and underplayed Tombstalker
The best mana denial ever (Wasteland), alongside the powerful Sinkhole and Stifle
The best discard spell ever (Thoughtseize)
The best counterspell ever (Force of Will), with Daze to boot
The best card draw ever (Brainstorm), with Ponder for extra consistency

It falls under the category of "Blue Aggro-Control," but is very different than its cousins and more proactive

I would put a swamp in there somewhere, probably in place of a fetch. I just like to have basics to fetch.
Yeah, it's a hybrid goodstuff deck; it plays the best and most efficient cards. It features

The best creature ever (Tarmogoyf), alongside the evasive and underplayed Tombstalker
The best mana denial ever (Wasteland), alongside the powerful Sinkhole and Stifle
The best discard spell ever (Thoughtseize)
The best counterspell ever (Force of Will), with Daze to boot
The best card draw ever (Brainstorm), with Ponder for extra consistency

It falls under the category of "Blue Aggro-Control," but is very different than its cousins and more proactive

I would put a swamp in there somewhere, probably in place of a fetch. I just like to have basics to fetch.

I would liike to argue that Brainstorm is not the best draw spell ever, speaking only of legacy. Yes, brainstorm does allow you to look at 3 new cards but it doesn't actually give you card advantage. It gives you card quality but lacks the ability to give you card advantage. I've played team america a few times, and my only issue with the deck is a lack of card advantage. I wanted to test the deck with different draw spells but never had the motivation. Alongside the lack of draw spells in the deck, I felt on occation, it was difficult to find creatures. I remember losing one match to Affinity because I didn't see a creature until at least turn 8, maybe later.
The version of this deck I'm testing right now has 4 Quirion Dryad, which would serve as extra creatures, and get MASSIVE in this deck, given 12 free spells and even more cheap spells.

Lack of CA is what tends to hurt this deck and Threshold. Predict could potentially solve this problem, but I don't know what to cut. Stifle or Sinkhole perhaps, but those cards are SO good.
The version of this deck I'm testing right now has 4 Quirion Dryad, which would serve as extra creatures, and get MASSIVE in this deck, given 12 free spells and even more cheap spells.

Lack of CA is what tends to hurt this deck and Threshold. Predict could potentially solve this problem, but I don't know what to cut. Stifle or Sinkhole perhaps, but those cards are SO good.

I've seen a list that cut 2 Ponder, 1 Tombstalker and 1 Snuff Out for 4 Standstill. I didn't care for the standstills in there without man-lands, but replacing them with Predict would make some sense. In that case though, I think Ponder must stay as a 4 of.
Cutting Ponder is terrible. Ponder gives this deck consistency and more ways to find threats.
Cutting Ponder is terrible. Ponder gives this deck consistency and more ways to find threats.

I agree. I'm just saying what I saw, not condoning it.
This deck is silly. It is an ungodly, god-like deck.
I love this deck, but the merfolk matchup is terrible, far worse than even mono-red goblins. How can we work on this? I'm thinking either deed or engineered explosives in sideboard instead of hydroblast/beb. Possibly both, and take out the edicts as well. I realize that both ee set to 2 (most common against merfolk) and deed will both eat tarmogoyf, but merfolk are just so bad for this deck.

I also recognize that these two cards do not have the great tempo consistent with the majority of the deck, however, you don't really gain tempo on merfolk since they have no fetchlands to stifle, few nonbasics to wasteland (just mutavault), and can vial around your counters. Because the mana denial sucks, daze is much weaker and so is sinkhole. Combine that with enemy islandwalk, and I think it's worth patching the sideboard up with some sweepers. You really have to switch the strategy entirely from short-term mana denial and tempo to setting up bombs to prevent them from dropping too many men. Both of them also stop standstill if you drop them before your opponent drops standstill, and both are capable of dealing with a resolved aether vial.

Thoughts?
Black threshold decks is poor against aggro and so is team America. Don't run this deck in a meta with lots of aggro.

Engineered Plague is a decent solution, but not very effective considering they have 8 lords.

You need to keep in a couple Wastelands to hit Mutavaults and maybe Riptide Laboratories.

Daze is actually still good without mana denial, note how countertop plays 3-4 of them.

I dislike blue blasts in general, I would definitely go with sweepers. Smother over Snuff out could also be helpful.
If you weren't posting in response, I apologize. It seems like you're posting in response to the merfolk problem I just posted.

Black threshold decks is poor against aggro and so is team America. Don't run this deck in a meta with lots of aggro.

I consistently beat zoo with the standard decklist/sideboard. It's not that aggro is a bad matchup, it's that turning four cards into dead cards (stifle) and significantly weakening the effectiveness of 12 more (sinkhole, wasteland, daze) is bad. This is why mono-red goblins and merfolk are worse matchups than R/x golbins and sligh which are worse matchups than zoo (which in my testing is favourable). It's decks with a significant basic land manabase that are bad.

Engineered Plague is a decent solution, but not very effective considering they have 8 lords.

Engineered plague is a terrible solution for merfolk. I suggested Engineered Explosives and/or Pernicious Deed, which both kill based on CMC, not toughness.

You need to keep in a couple Wastelands to hit Mutavaults and maybe Riptide Laboratories.

I didn't suggest removing them, just that they are less useful against a deck with so many basic lands.

Daze is actually still good without mana denial, note how countertop plays 3-4 of them.

Daze is still good early, yes, but it is not nearly as good later on without the mana denial package. Keeping your opponent on 1-2 lands makes daze far more relevant.

I dislike blue blasts in general, I would definitely go with sweepers. Smother over Snuff out could also be helpful.

The blue blasts are underwhelming, for sure. Although snuff out lends itself to a more aggressive strategy and is certainly superior against control, Edict or Smother may be better options against aggro. However, if you're going to give up precious tempo against aggro, why not gain some card advantage?

Again, the problem is that the merfolk matchup is nigh-unwinnable because we are disadvantaged pre-board with dead or nearly dead cards (stifle, sinkhole should both be sided out against merfolk, and daze and wasteland are both less-good than usual), but we have nothing really great to side in. Even if we put in grip for vial and edict for more removal, they still have an advantage without any sideboarding on their part. I can't think of a decent merfolk hand that loses to anything but godhand from team america.
At some point certain archetypes are fundamentally at a disadvantage to other archetypes.

Team America is forced to play the role of control in this matchup, because it's early game land disruption is ineffective against a deck without fetchlands, and contains both Aether Vial and many basics. This and the fact that Team America has fewer creatures forces it to play the role of control. The problem is that Team America is not designed to play the role of control - it has little to no removal and card advantage. Furthermore, Merfolk can sneak its men past Team America's giant monsters via Lord of Atlantis, and Team America is vulnerable to Merfolk's mana disruption as it has no basic lands and relies on fetchlands to set up its manabase.
At some point certain archetypes are fundamentally at a disadvantage to other archetypes.

Team America is forced to play the role of control in this matchup, because it's early game land disruption is ineffective against a deck without fetchlands, and contains both Aether Vial and many basics. This and the fact that Team America has fewer creatures forces it to play the role of control. The problem is that Team America is not designed to play the role of control - it has little to no removal and card advantage. Furthermore, Merfolk can sneak its men past Team America's giant monsters via Lord of Atlantis, and Team America is vulnerable to Merfolk's mana disruption as it has no basic lands and relies on fetchlands to set up its manabase.

I'm not disagreeing with any of this. In fact, it's very much the same as what I've said. What I'm trying to say is rather than just accept the match as unwinnable, why don't we try getting rid of less-useful sideboard cards for cards that might help us better control the little blue men? The only decks that BEB are useful against are also hosed by ee/deed. The only advantage is that BEB is cheaper, but ee/deed are still better.

That is what sideboards are used for right? Fixing weaknesses?

Basically, I'm saying "We should work on the sideboard to improve our worst matchup" and your counter is "No, just accept that our worst matchup is extremely bad."

Even if the matchup is still bad post ee and deed, it's at least going from like 10% to maybe 30-40%. Post boarding in deed and ee, game win ratio could even be positive. Merfork can't really deal with deed, and ee certainly doesn't hurt. Plus, ee in particular helps with the ichorid matchup, which can be tough with only 4 crypts.

I'm not trying to say that if we put ee and deed in the board we'll always beat merfolk. I'm saying that it's worth the slots given the amount they can help in that and other similar matches.
At any rate, yes I like the idea of EE, it seems like the best option alongside Deeds.
Actually, I just took a jaunt over to the source and was surprised to see my new tech isn't quite as new as I thought. Most current sideboards being proposed are along the lines of:

Disclaimer: As someone else said earlier in the thread, I'm jsut speaking of what I saw, not necessarily condoning it.

Show
Typically 3 of 3 of these and 2 of the last:
Chill
Divert
Deed
Krosan grip

2 tormod's crypt

And 2 each of one card from this list:
Engineered Explosives
Perish
Diabolic Edict
Pithing Needle

2 More Tormod's Crypt.
A couple of people are swearing by leyline of the void over tormods.

The disclaimer is particularly true for this part:
The other interesting discussion is Spell Snare vs thoughtseize maindeck. Basically the discussion is revolving around the fact that spell snare is better the longer the game drags on, and they generally will counter the same cards. Proponents of thoughtseize point out you can play thoughtseize turn 1 to gain more info on your opponents as well as having 2 mana available turn 2 (on the play) rather than holding one open for spell snare.


My thoughts on the above: Running 5-6 burn hosers (chill, divert) is probably too many. Both have benefits, but I think chill is the better, and 3-4 of is plenty. Krosan grip could possibly be cut down to 3, what with the filtering we have with brainstorm/ponder in addition to thoughtseize (which I would pick over spell snare). I'd definitely run no less than 4 ichorid haters, probably going with either 4 crypt or 3 crypt/2 ee. 2 deeds, and then fill the last couple with specific meta choices. And, in my opinion, tormod's crypt > leyline, because while leyline is better, it's far less reliable (particularly considering we run so much filtering).

The sideboard I'm going to test:
3 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
3 tormod's crypt
3 krosan grip
4 chill

With particular possibility of swapping out a chill for another deed, ee, or crypt. Apparently burn is a terrible matchup, so I'll need to test the original sideboard and this one against that (burn and demigod stompy are the reasons chill is so prevalent), and divert is recommended against sligh and burn, although I feel divert is safe to ignore running 4 chill, 3 deed, and 2 ee.

Edit: the argument for chill over BEB, if anyone wants to know, is that BEB only trades with a single card while chill slows down every card and wrecks a lot of strategies more effectively. Demigod stompy? Check. Sligh? Check. Zoo? With the mana denial package, also a check.

would lorescale coatl or trygon predator make this better?

not at all. they're inefficient and slow.


would lorescale coatl or trygon predator make this better?




Lorescale needs moar draw, and Predator just isn't needed.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO


not at all. they're inefficient and slow.




well cant a coatl+brainstorm = big creature for 3? plus every turn u draw a card...and why not trygon?

If Team America were to add a copies off a third creature (which certainly isn't a bad idea), it would have to be something very big and efficient, just like Tombstalker and Goyf.  Not slow (Coatl) or small (Predator).



not at all. they're inefficient and slow.




well cant a coatl+brainstorm = big creature for 3? plus every turn u draw a card...and why not trygon?




Yes, that is cool, but that's the only really cool thing that can happen with it. And even then, it's just a 6/6 with no evasion for 3cc (sounds kinda' strange to say). Otherwise it's a Grey Ogre that gets +1/+1 each turn. One of those has a much larger chance of happening. And even if you do have Coatl and Brainstorm in hand, Daze taking away land drops makes it nearly impossible.

As for Trygon, why have it?


That said, the deck just doesn't need any more creatures. It would be fun to have another, but only if it's up to the same standards as Goyf and Tombstalker.

lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO

ok ill just stick to 8 creatures (4 goyf, 4 Tstalker)


 


and to get some closure...would Counterbalance be bad for this deck?


and to get some closure...would Counterbalance be bad for this deck?




Yes.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO

why?

it doesn't fit the Tempo-Thresh style of play this deck embraces. Counterbalance is fairly mediocre without Top and playing both requires at least 6 slots. This deck can't afford to devote that kind of space without significantly altering its strategy. And at that point there's no reason not to play Dark Confidant, etc...and eventually the deck just looks like Tim Hunt's CounterTop list...


When discussing well-established decks, you need to provide rationale for playing a new/different card for that archetype. You do not however need to give rationale for playing established cards in an archetype, though you do have to give rationale for cutting them.


For example, my choice to play Threads of Disloyalty in CounterTop - it's a Shackles that takes effect immediately, and that extra turn counts for so much against decks like Zoo and Eva Green. I cut Sower because as a result of the rise of aggro, removal became more commonplace, and thus Sower became less effective.

well i was kinda going for a Ctop/Team america mix because the ctop combo seems to work really well and it seems like team america needs a permanent control combo. 


 


and what do u think about tops instead of ponders?

I personally prefer top to ponder because you only need 3 of them in a deck (the last thing you want to see when you've got a top is another top, after all), so you save one slot for an actual threat, and you can ponder whenever you want instead of having to wait to draw it. However, I've never used this deck, and the consensus seems to be that cutting ponder would be practically suicidal.

(content removed)


I personally prefer top to ponder because you only need 3 of them in a deck (the last thing you want to see when you've got a top is another top, after all), so you save one slot for an actual threat, and you can ponder whenever you want instead of having to wait to draw it. However, I've never used this deck, and the consensus seems to be that cutting ponder would be practically suicidal.




Ponder=Stalker foods

Top=Stalker neglect and CA loss.

lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO

Plus Ponder is less mana intensive, which is key for a tempo-oriented deck like this one.

so how many lands should i run? im currently running 20 but with 4 wasteland it seems to not be as good as i would like.


and will only 8 creatures be enough?


so how many lands should i run? im currently running 20 but with 4 wasteland it seems to not be as good as i would like.


and will only 8 creatures be enough?




It might help if you just posted your deck...
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO

ok here is my current version.


 



Mana:


4 wasteland


3 Tropical Island


3 Underground Sea


4 Polluted delta


4 Misty Rainforest


2 Island


 


Creatures:


4 Tarmogoyf


4 Tombstalker


 


Spells:


4 Stifle


4 Ponder


4 Daze


4 Force of Will


4 Brainstorm


4 Snuff Out


4 Sinkhole


4 Thoughtsieze



 

Highly suggest a manabase of 4 Seas, 2 Trops, 1 Bayou, 1 Island or fetch. Optimizes black access as you have Sinkholes.

why the bayou?

the deck is heavy on black

yea thats true, but why only 1?


yea thats true, but why only 1?




You can fetch it if you need Green and/or Black instead of Blue.

and so i would only have 1 basic? that doesnt seem like enough...