[DtB]Ichorid

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Ichorid



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What is Ichorid?
Ichorid is a deck based around the Dredge mechanic from Ravnica and utilizing the graveyard as an endless source of card advantage and beaters. It wins either with Ichorid beatdown or by sacrificing creatures to Dread Return, netting a bunch of 2/2 Zombie tokens from Bridge from Below in the process, and bringing back Flame-Kin Zealot to give them haste and attacking for the win.

How do I play Ichorid?
The basic plan is fairly simple and straightforward. The first thing that you have to do is get a card with Dredge (Golgari Grave-Troll, Stinkweed Imp, or Golgari Thug) into the graveyard and use it to fill up your graveyard. This is done with card drawing like [c]Breakthrough, Deep Analysis, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, and, of course, your draw step. This will allow you to get Ichorid, Narcomoeba, and Zombie tokens into play for beatdown. Dread Return and Flame-Kin Zealot let you go for the combo win.

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Card Choices
Lands

City of Brass- You have several different colors of cards in your deck and a low amount of lands, so 5-color lands are necessary.
Gemstone Mine- See above. You don’t cast too many spells, so its drawback will usually be irrelevant.
Cephalid Coliseum- This is a great card for this deck because it allows you to dredge a lot of cards for only one mana, and it is uncounterable.

Dredgers

Golgari Grave-Troll- One of the key cards to the deck, its high Dredge count allows you to get many cards into your graveyard. You can also bring it back with Dread Return to get a huge beater.
Stinkweed Imp- Not quite as good as Golgari Grave-Troll, but it is the next best dredger. It even has some uses when hardcasted, though this is rare.
Golgari Thug- Inferior to Imp and Grave-Troll, but you need more dredgers than just those two, and Thug is the next best.
Darkblast- Gets rid of problem creatures such as Yixlid Jailer and Dark Confidant, and it dredges a few cards. Good utility, but it isn’t usually played..

Discard Outlets and Draw

Lion&#8217;s Eye Diamond- Can get multiple dredgers into the graveyard at one time, and provides needed mana for Deep Analysis and Cephalid Coliseum.
Putrid Imp- A permanent, repeatable discard outlet. Swinging for two each turn doesn’t hurt, either.
Breakthrough- A very good card, it allows you to dredge with creatures already in the graveyard, then discard them to get ready to do it again. This card leads to very fast wins.
Careful Study- Triggers dredge and acts as a discard outlet.
Deep Analysis- Allows you to dredge twice for only two mana and three life. Very powerful with Lion&#8217;s Eye Diamond.

Other Utility and Disruption

Cabal Therapy- Acts as a discard outlet, gets rid of disruption, slows down your opponent, and can get tokens from Bridge From Below.
Unmask- Free disruption, it can strip your opponent’s hand of disruption, but the alternative cost is sometimes difficult to pay, and you may not have any black cards to spare. This is usually found either in the maindeck or in the sideboard.

Winning

Ichorid- Provides creatures for Dread Return and keeps you in the game if something disrupts your Dread Return and Bridge from Below plan.
Narcomoeba- Free creatures that are used to fuel Dread Return and Cabal Therapy.
Dread Return- The sacrificed creatures generate Zombies with Bridge from Below, and it animates Flame-Kin Zealot for the win or Cephalid Sage to get the last few cards you need into your graveyard.
Bridge from Below- A primary win condition, the Zombie tokens produced by this can provide an instant win with Flame-Kin Zealot.
Flame-Kin Zealot- Combined with Zombie tokens, this is one of your options for Dread Return. Leads to most of your fast combo wins.
Cephalid Sage- The other Dread Return target, it can usually dredge all the cards that you still need into your graveyard.
Eternal Witness- Competes with Cephalid Sage for a 1-of DR target. Brings back Breakthrough to go for the win, or any other card that you may need.
River Kelpie- A possible alternative to Cephalid Sage.

Sideboard

Chain of Vapor- The best answer to Leyline of the Void, the biggest threat to this deck, and it deals with any other problem permanent, at least temporarily.
Ray of Revelation- Good enchantment hate.
Wispmare- Better at destroying Leyline of the Void than Ray of Revelation and gets you tokens with Bridge From Below
Leyline of the Void- Hate for the mirror and stops sacrificing creatures from removing your Bridge from Belows.
Pithing Needle- Probably the best answer to Tormod&#8217;s Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Engineered Explosives, and many other problem cards.
Contagion- Destroys Yixlid Jailer and other annoying creatures.
Chalice of the Void- Playing it for zero stops your opponent from playing Tormod&#8217;s Crypt, and it is great utility in general.
Firestorm- Excellent answer to Yixlid Jailer, Magus of the Moon, and creature swarms. Can also act as burn to the face to end the game.
Ancestor&#8217;s Chosen- Good as a 1-of Dread Return target to end the game against aggro decks, especially ones that can remove your Bridge From Belows easily like Goblins.

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Decklists

Skeleton

11-12 Lands
4 City of Brass
3-4 Gemstone Mine
3-4 Cephalid Coliseum

24-26 Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2-3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Cephalid Sage/Eternal Witness/River Kelpie
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
0-1 Additional Dread Return Targets

~25 Other Spells
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
2-3 Dread Return
2-3 Deep Analysis
0-4 Careful Study
0-4 Unmask

Parcher from The Source

11 Land
4 Gemstone Minne
3 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise

25 Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Eternal Witness

24 Other Spells
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask
2 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis
4 Bridge from Below
1 Firestorm
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

15 Sideboard
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Unmask
1 Ancestor's Chosen
Parcher’s card choice explanations can be found here.

mntwinsfan

12 Land
4 Gemstone Minne
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

25 Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Eternal Witness

23 Other Spells
4 Bridge From Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask
2 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis

15 Sideboard
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
4 Firestorm
1 Wispmare
1 Ancestor’s Chosen
1 Unmask


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Credits
Hoduko, for the awesome dividers.
Richie Proffit, for being an amazing influence on the entire community of Magic.
Parcher, from The Source, for writing an excellent primer that was the main inspiration and basis for this update. I strongly suggest that you read this, especially for the matchup and sideboarding discussion.
Vial Goblins
Game 1 really depends on whether the Goblin player draws Mogg Fanatic or not. After all, not only can Fanatic sacrifice itself to remove your Bridge from Belows, but it can also ping away Narcomoeba, Ichorid, and Putrid Imp. Fortunately, you can overrun the Goblin player with several Ichorids even if your Bridges are removed. Goblins can also win by using Goblin Lackey to bring out a Siege-Gang Commander and then disrupting your manabase with Wasteland and Rishidan Port. This plan, however, is less worrisome for you than Mogg Fanatic. Overall, Game 1 is favorable, though not by as big of a margin as Thresh or Landstill.

I find Vial Goblins to be extremely beatable with ichorid. I find a lot of people who play with ichorid depend too much on the bridge from below. I run akroma, angel of wrath mainboard for a dread return target.


My build of ichorid also dropped the cephalid sage for River Kelpie. I find this card to be far superior. This however is just my view.

What I would like to know is how to beat leyline of the void backed with counterspells. I played a tournament recently and faced someone playing a b/u deck with daze and forces. I attempted to remove his leyline but he just dazed it. How do I get rid of the voids?
Vial Goblins is pretty easy to beat Game 1, I was just listing the things that they will do to disrupt you.

Cephalid Sage is great, but I have not tested River Kelpie. Perhaps it will end up being better.

Leyline of the Void is difficult to deal with when backed up by a counter wall, I will agree with you there. The best answer is Chain of Vapor at end of turn. Echoing Truth can also work. It has better utility than Chain of Vapor, but it costs more, making it worse against stuff like Daze.
Kelpie is better when going with Ichorids I suppose, but if you're resolving Dread Returns (to get back sage or kelpie) then you want the cards immediately. The point of sage is to continue dredging to find the combo kill when you are still missing a piece. Sage stays, imo.
Kelpie is better when going with Ichorids I suppose, but if you're resolving Dread Returns (to get back sage or kelpie) then you want the cards immediately. The point of sage is to continue dredging to find the combo kill when you are still missing a piece. Sage stays, imo.

I definitely prefer Sage. Still, Kelpie is worth testing.

EDIT: Added some more matchups to the OP.
I'm curious as to what everyone thinks about adding

4 Demigod of Revenge

as a potential target for Dread Return, potentially reanimating 3 (possible total of 4 in play) non-token (to feed the Bridges) creatures as a new and probably unexpected wincon.

Also, I recommend one copy of Wonder to combat opponent blockage, which can ruin a win-immediately plan against certain decks. It may be that this would be best as a SB answer rather than MD.
I'm curious as to what everyone thinks about adding

4 Demigod of Revenge

as a potential target for Dread Return, potentially reanimating 3 (possible total of 4 in play) non-token (to feed the Bridges) creatures as a new and probably unexpected wincon.

If you reanimate a Demigon with Dread Return, you won't get the other ones in the graveyard. You aren't actually playing it. If you want a big flyer with haste, just use Akroma.

Also, I recommend one copy of Wonder to combat opponent blockage, which can ruin a win-immediately plan against certain decks. It may be that this would be best as a SB answer rather than MD.

Wonder is very suboptimal, as we don't run any islands and it is not a good idea to do so.
LOL I totally missed that wording on Demigod. D'oh.

As for Wonder, I run one U/B dual off of fetches. It is entirely possible that my build is suboptimal tho.

I run Akroma SB alongside a pair of Kokushos and Keiga just for kicks.

LOL I totally missed that wording on Demigod. D'oh.

As for Wonder, I run one U/B dual off of fetches. It is entirely possible that my build is suboptimal tho.

I run Akroma SB alongside a pair of Kokushos and Keiga just for kicks.


I wouldn't reccomend using duals and fetches. Ray of Revelation is a good sideboard card, but it requires green and/or white mana to play, pretty much making 5-color lands necessary.

As for Akroma and the Dragons, all you really need for creatures is Sage, FKZ, and maybe an Akroma, but it probably isn't necessary.
Some questions...
I didn't see lotus petal in the decklist posted above. Is this card unuseful?
River kelpie is not, in my opinion, a good sustitute for Cephalid sage.
Creepling fatigue?? What do you think about thid card in the SB?
Some questions...
I didn't see lotus petal in the decklist posted above. Is this card unuseful?

Not very good in this deck. You only need 1 land to function, the accel doesn't do anything for you, and, in the situations where Lotus Petal is helpful, LED is better anyways.
River kelpie is not, in my opinion, a good sustitute for Cephalid sage.

I find Sage to be much better, but some people like Kelpie.
Creepling fatigue?? What do you think about thid card in the SB?

The only creature you need to kill is Yixlid Jailer, and you already have better ways to deal with that in Cabal Therapy, Contagion, Chain of Vapor, and Darkblast.
Not very good in this deck. You only need 1 land to function, the accel doesn't do anything for you, and, in the situations where Lotus Petal is helpful, LED is better anyways.

That's right, LED >>>>>Lotus petal. But i would consider it and LED together. I don't want it for accel but for playing deep analysis. T1: land + petal, althought i have 1 copy of dakmor salvage.
Check out my deck list:

Lands ( 9 )

4 City of brass
4 Cephalid coliseum
1 Dakmor salvage

Creatures (22)

4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari grave troll
3 Putrid imp
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame kin zealot
1 Golgari Thug
2 Cephalid sage
3 Ichorid

Otros hechizos (29)

4 Bridge from below
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 Deep analysis
3 Careful study
3 Dread return
3 Lotus petal
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal therapy

SB

4 Pithing needle
4 Leyline of the void
3 Chain of vapor
1 Ray of revelation
2 Darkblast
1 Simic sky swallower

As you already know, the idea is put into play 1545454 Zombie tokens 3/3 with haste reaminating the zealot in a few turns.
This is my first version where my key play is: LED + Deep analysis + Coliseum in turn 1, obviously.
Darkblast is included in the main for wish deck to Yixlid.
Would you cut off lotus petal??? Why?? What would you include then??
Suggestions are welcomed!
I would cut Lotus Petal, 1 Sage, and 1-2 Deep Analysis. Deep Analysis, while good, should not be a 4-of, and including Lotus Petal just to enable its consistent casting is not a good idea.
Add a few more lands, bring Golgari Thug up to a 2 or 3-of, add the fourth Ichorid, and add the fourth Cabal Therapy.

Dakmor Salvage is not good in this deck, and it should be Gemstone Mine. You need all of your lands to be able to make blue mana.
I would cut Lotus Petal, 1 Sage, and 1-2 Deep Analysis. Deep Analysis, while good, should not be a 4-of, and including Lotus Petal just to enable its consistent casting is not a good idea.
Add a few more lands, bring Golgari Thug up to a 2 or 3-of, add the fourth Ichorid, and add the fourth Cabal Therapy.

Dakmor Salvage is not good in this deck, and it should be Gemstone Mine. You need all of your lands to be able to make blue mana.

So deep analysis will be casted only with LED??
Isn't more probable to make the combo in T1 with 4 analysis and 4 LED??
You didn`t mention a discard card but ichorid or golgari thug make effects from graveyard!
Deep Analysis will usually be cast with LED, but sometimes you do end up getting 2 lands. Deep Analysis isn't necessary for the deck to function, which is why it isn't a 4-of.
I'm not sure what you mean in the last sentence, but you get Ichorid and Golgari Thug (and most of your other cards for that matter) into the grave by dredging or with a discard outlet (LED, Breakthrough, Putrid Imp, Careful Study).
Mmm...ok. What i meant is that you named some cards that one make use of them when they are in the grave, right? But if you don't add discard engine, how will they get into the yard?? Maybe the answer is LED.
Coming back to lotus petal + deep analysis. Let's talk about luck. What happen if LED is not in your opening hand?? You play land and something for discarding. If you dredge the following turns, you will not pick up a LED, so deep analysis is a dead card.
On the other hand, if you have some copies of lotus petal you have another chance for playing deep analysis if LED is not in the opening hand. ;)


How do you sideboard this deck?? I mean, i know the SB composition but i don't have a "rule" for sideboarding...can you help me??
The thing is, Deep Analysis won't be a dead card, because it will just be dredged to the graveyard. That isn't card disadvantage. Its nice when you are able to flashback it with LED mana, but it isn't a key part of the deck.

For sideboarding, it really depends on what you suspect your opponent will board in against you. Chain of Vapor answers Leyline of the Void (and, to a lesser extent, Yixlid Jailer). Pithing Needle and/or Chalice of the Void answer Tormod's Crypt, and Pithing Needle is just an all around useful sideboard card. Contagion and Darkblast can remove Yixlid Jailer. Extirpate doesn't really have an answer, but you usually have two ways of winning: Zombie Tokens or Ichorid beatdown. If they extirpate both, you are in trouble, but you can still easily win if only one of them is removed.

Overall, you have to get to know the decks in your local metagame. Find out what Ichorid hate they are packing in their sideboards. Then, side in the cards you have that answer their hate. Also, research different decks and what sideboard cards they will usually have against you.
OK!! I got it! Thx.
One more question. Is really dangerous a Chalice of the void for 0 to annul our lotus petal?? I mean...is a common sideboarding COTV againste dredge to crack petal and LED?
OK!! I got it! Thx.
One more question. Is really dangerous a Chalice of the void for 0 to annul our lotus petal?? I mean...is a common sideboarding COTV againste dredge to crack petal and LED?

Chalice of the Void on 0 isn't that big of a deal. Chalice on 1 is actually more of a threat, as it shuts down Cabal Therapy, Breakthrough, Careful Study, and Putrid Imp. It is fairly easy to play around though. You can often get in a Putrid Imp before the Chalice so you still have a discard outlet. LED also lets you discard around the Chalice. Chain of Vapor can temporarily get rid of it.
Yeah...i think chalice is not so dangerous...tell me if this plays without considering LED are factible:

T1: Land + petal + putrid imp + careful study
T2: GG

or

T1: Land + petalo + putrid/ careful study, discard deep analysis and dragers
T2: Flashback, dredge, drege and dredge and GG...well maybe in T3.
Yeah...i think chalice is not so dangerous...tell me if this plays without considering LED are factible:

T1: Land + petal + putrid imp + careful study
T2: GG

or

T1: Land + petalo + putrid/ careful study, discard deep analysis and dragers
T2: Flashback, dredge, drege and dredge and GG...well maybe in T3.

Each of those situations could easily lead to a quick win, depending on what you dredge. Lotus Petal can increase your speed, but it will also decrease your consistency, as it takes the place of other useful cards.
Is the typical "double edge".
Did i told you that i recently incorpored the 4th cabal and ichorid and the 2nd golgari thug??
Check it out!

Lands ( 9 )

4 City of brass
4 Cephalid coliseum
1 Dakmor salvage

Creatures (24)

4 Diablillo hierbaapestosa
4 Golgari grave troll
3 Putrid imp
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame kin zealot
2 Golgari thug
2 Cephalid sage
4 Ichorid

Others (27)

4 Bridge from below
4 Lion's eye diamond
2 Deep analysis
3 Careful study
3 Dread return
3 Lotus petal
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy

SB

4 Pithing needle
4 Leyline of the void
3 Chain of vapor
1 Ray of revelacion
2 Darkblast
1 Simic sky swallower / Ancestor's Chosen

What do you think now? :D :D
GoldenCid: I would say you definatly need at least 3 copies of gemstone mine. 9 lands, and only 4 that produce any color isn't optimal. My deck runs 4 colliseum, 4 brass, and 4 mine's.
GoldenCid: I would say you definatly need at least 3 copies of gemstone mine. 9 lands, and only 4 that produce any color isn't optimal. My deck runs 4 colliseum, 4 brass, and 4 mine's.

Lotus petal does not cover this point??
First off, telling new ichorid players that Dakmor Salvage isn't good in this deck makes me think you are an idiot. It is definitely playable, especially in the matches where you need to go ichorid beats and go for our "long" game. It gets you your second land while still dredging. This may not seem necessary, but it can keep Daze at bay while going off a bit slower against decks where counter spells are a problem when you DR. Turn 3 win isn't goldfishing, but a slower protected kill is definitely better than losing. I know you think that Cabal Therapy is enough, but I play against landstill and thresh on a very consistant basis. I run 4x Therapy, 2x Unmask (plus a 3rd in the SB) and a singleton Salvage. It helps, but losing is STILL an option, and it sometimes happens.

Also, Wispmare seems to be a better choice for your enchantment hate than Ray of Revelation does. It doesn't require 2x lands, and it's evoke gets you zombie tokens later in the game for non-GY hate cards such as Deed for a single mana. You can even use your first DR to bring it back to sac off in your second DR getting the effect again if need be.

The problem I'm seeing is 2x Sage. This is nonsense. 1 Sage wins you the game, 2 is a wasted slot. And 9 lands that don't include Coliseum is crazy-talk. 11 is the least my list can handle.

Ancestor's Chosen >>>>>>>>>>>>> Simic Sky Swallower

The life can get you through a longer game where Ichorid beats is much more appropriate than the combo route. This seems largely to be up to the pilot. Some people use that BW angel that has Vindicate tacked on it as a DR target, while others choose Sundering Titan or Akroma (either version, the red one is much more common, at least from what I've seen; game two they side in bounce, most likely Echoing Truth, which can't hit Akroma, and neither can StP).

Parcher's list (Parcher is a fellow from mtgthesource) from GenCon ran an Eternal Witness as a DR target. I suggested this before GenCon over there @ the source, but I'm not sure how good it actually is; more playtesting is absolutely required. It could take the place of Dakmor Salvage, as it allows you to grab back a land if need be.

Lotus Petal is wasted slots also. I think if you run them, drop down to 7 or 8 lands. Don't cut spells. Often times in my experience, while goldfishing a 1-time mana source would cut it. However, if you want your list to be more versatile, I'd stick with 11 lands minimum, 12 lands maximum.

To reference, here's the fully tested list that I run:

Creatures:
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Putrid Imp
3x Street Wraith
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Golgari Thug
1x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

Spells:
4x LED
4x Bridge
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Unmask
2x Careful Study
2x Deep Analasis
2x Breakthrough
2x Dread Return

Lands:
4x Cephalid Coliseum
3x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine
1x Dakmor Salvage

First, you will notice the street wraiths. They don't slow you down enough to matter, 1/2 a turn at the MOST. They are extra food for Ichorid, and they are instant speed dredge. This allows you to EOT dredge, toss it to PImp whenever and then dredge again during your turn, not to mention it's uncounterable (Stifleable, but that's much less of a worry than FoW/Daze), you can still pop LED in response, and even has good synergy with Unmask. DR him in a pinch, and he has possible evasion. What are the cons? I've yet to really run into any. Bear in mind that I still have half of my set of Breakthroughs in here, which actually ups the dredge enablers by 1x.

In regards to the land, when playing in a more aggro meta, drop a city and add a mine, as it's less pain. However, in a meta where ichorid beats is used more, drop a Mine and add a city. I'm wanting to figure out how I could consistantly get an Island into play for a Wonder in my GY. I'm wanting this because I'm looking to find a way to make Forbidden Orchard a playable land, however this gives them blockers, and that's not exactly ideal for the deck's overall goal. I'm wanting this because I'm trying to find a way to inflict less damage to ourselves while not giving them blockers. I'm trying 2x City/2x Mine/2x Orchard atm. It's not much different, but more testing is still needed here as well.

10x Dredgers is enough. I almost ALWAYS use the 3rd Thug (when I used to run it) for Ichorid food, so replacing it with a Street Wraith was a clear-cut go for me.

I'm out.
First off, telling new ichorid players that Dakmor Salvage isn't good in this deck makes me think you are an idiot. It is definitely playable, especially in the matches where you need to go ichorid beats and go for our "long" game. It gets you your second land while still dredging. This may not seem necessary, but it can keep Daze at bay while going off a bit slower against decks where counter spells are a problem when you DR. Turn 3 win isn't goldfishing, but a slower protected kill is definitely better than losing. I know you think that Cabal Therapy is enough, but I play against landstill and thresh on a very consistant basis. I run 4x Therapy, 2x Unmask (plus a 3rd in the SB) and a singleton Salvage. It helps, but losing is STILL an option, and it sometimes happens.

The reason I suggested that he not use Dakmor Salvage is because it hasn't been used in any decks that have placed in tournaments. I tried it a little, but didn't find it necessary. Not being able to make blue mana didn't usually hurt me, but once in a while it did and I ended up cutting it. It seems that I need to test it some more.
Also, Wispmare seems to be a better choice for your enchantment hate than Ray of Revelation does. It doesn't require 2x lands, and it's evoke gets you zombie tokens later in the game for non-GY hate cards such as Deed for a single mana. You can even use your first DR to bring it back to sac off in your second DR getting the effect again if need be.

I prefer Ray because you can flashback it after you've dredged it into your grave. Wispmare is better against Leyline of the Void, but Ray is usually better in other situations. Wispmare is certainly playable, but it seems that Chain of Vapor is better against LotV and Ray is better against enchantments in general.

The problem I'm seeing is 2x Sage. This is nonsense. 1 Sage wins you the game, 2 is a wasted slot. And 9 lands that don't include Coliseum is crazy-talk. 11 is the least my list can handle.

Are you referring to GoldenCid's list? Regardless, you are right on both points.

Ancestor's Chosen >>>>>>>>>>>>> Simic Sky Swallower

The life can get you through a longer game where Ichorid beats is much more appropriate than the combo route. This seems largely to be up to the pilot. Some people use that BW angel that has Vindicate tacked on it as a DR target, while others choose Sundering Titan or Akroma (either version, the red one is much more common, at least from what I've seen; game two they side in bounce, most likely Echoing Truth, which can't hit Akroma, and neither can StP).

I'd rather have Akroma or Sundering Titan than Ancestor's Chosen, but that's just my opinion. I agree with you that Chosen is better than SSS, though.

Parcher's list (Parcher is a fellow from mtgthesource) from GenCon ran an Eternal Witness as a DR target. I suggested this before GenCon over there @ the source, but I'm not sure how good it actually is; more playtesting is absolutely required. It could take the place of Dakmor Salvage, as it allows you to grab back a land if need be.

Do you have his list? I would be interested in seeing it. I'm not sure if E. Witness is the best DR target, though it is worth testing.

Creatures:
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Putrid Imp
3x Street Wraith
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Golgari Thug
1x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

Spells:
4x LED
4x Bridge
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Unmask
2x Careful Study
2x Deep Analasis
2x Breakthrough
2x Dread Return

Lands:
4x Cephalid Coliseum
3x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine
1x Dakmor Salvage

Has not having the full set of Breakthrough hurt you? I've always found them to be excellent.

First, you will notice the street wraiths. They don't slow you down enough to matter, 1/2 a turn at the MOST. They are extra food for Ichorid, and they are instant speed dredge. This allows you to EOT dredge, toss it to PImp whenever and then dredge again during your turn, not to mention it's uncounterable (Stifleable, but that's much less of a worry than FoW/Daze), you can still pop LED in response, and even has good synergy with Unmask. DR him in a pinch, and he has possible evasion. What are the cons? I've yet to really run into any. Bear in mind that I still have half of my set of Breakthroughs in here, which actually ups the dredge enablers by 1x.

I've considered Street Wraiths, but never had a chance to test them. Do they work well?

In regards to the land, when playing in a more aggro meta, drop a city and add a mine, as it's less pain. However, in a meta where ichorid beats is used more, drop a Mine and add a city. I'm wanting to figure out how I could consistantly get an Island into play for a Wonder in my GY. I'm wanting this because I'm looking to find a way to make Forbidden Orchard a playable land, however this gives them blockers, and that's not exactly ideal for the deck's overall goal. I'm wanting this because I'm trying to find a way to inflict less damage to ourselves while not giving them blockers. I'm trying 2x City/2x Mine/2x Orchard atm. It's not much different, but more testing is still needed here as well.

Orchard is an interesting thought. It would be better than the lands we have now, but getting an Island into play seems rather difficult.

10x Dredgers is enough. I almost ALWAYS use the 3rd Thug (when I used to run it) for Ichorid food, so replacing it with a Street Wraith was a clear-cut go for me.

I'm out.

I prefer 11 dredgers, but 10 seems to work well enough. It depends on the person, I guess.
Some points:

1- I think that Breakthrought should be run in 3-4 copies and not less. It is pro dredge and allows us to get more dredgers in yard.

2- I'm agree mntwinsfan consernig ray of revelation.

3- I give up, i will run 3 gemstone mine instead petal.

4- Street Wraiths is indeed interesting. I always wondered why it wasn't in decklist. I'll try it if i can.

5- Respect to ancestor's chosen, you prefer him because his CIM ability??
5- Respect to ancestor's chosen, you prefer him because his CIM ability??

Yes. The lifegain allows you to go aggro with Ichorid much more reliably if your Bridge plan gets disrupted.
Yes. The lifegain allows you to go aggro with Ichorid much more reliably if your Bridge plan gets disrupted.

But what about bouncers deck?? Is Ancestor's the election?? or Just playing rightly the deck is only way out agaist STP or bounce??

Let me show you my actual decklist:

Lands ( 11 )

4 City of brass
4 Cephalid coliseum
3 Gemstone mine


Creatures (26)

4 Stinkweed imp
4 Golgari grave troll
3 Putrid imp
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame kin zealot
2 Golgari thug
2 Cephalid sage
4 Ichorid
2 Street Wraith

Others (23)

4 Bridge from below
4 Lion's eye diamond
2 Deep analysis
2 Careful study
3 Dread return
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy

SB

4 Pithing needle
4 Leyline of the void
3 Chain of vapor
1 Ray of revelation
2 Darkblast
1 Ancestor's chosen
The list above is not by any means optimal.

Eternal Witness can grab you back a draw spell (read: Careful Study/Breakthrough/Street Wraith) instead of or in addition to Sage. It can grab a Chain of Vapor or a Needle post-board. Even an LED in a pinch. It's basically Dredge's version of a Tutor.

First, I play against Thresh (UGR mostly)/Landstill (4-c mostly)/counters.dec (a crappy wizard-permission list with Countertop) all the time, and I promise that 6x Discard spells are MUCH better than a 3rd DR. Dread Return requires 3x creatures in play, and you need at least 2 of them to be non-token most of the time. It's my opinion that the 3rd DR is a wasted slot. And why is no one listening to me about the damn Sage? If you can tell me one situation where a second sage would serve a purpose, I'll digress. But you can't, because it doesn't, so I won't ever have to. Look, the only purpose for sage is to continue dredging so you hit another bridge/Narc/DR/FKZ. You will not need to use 2. EVER. That creature slot is MUCH BETTER as PImp #4. The DR slot would work better as SW or the first of 2x Unmask.

You can play 2x SW if you want, but it seems less than optimal. I'd go 3/3 split with Breakthrough/SW if that's how you want it. The biggest thing with SW is that it's UNCOUNTERABLE.

In your SB, I would drop a Darkblast in favor of the 4th Chain of Vapor. This is because Chain of Vapor takes care of everything that Darkblast does and then some. You can Chain back their Yixlid and then DR. You can even make them toss it if you are having a bad game or something with one of your 4 or 6 discard spells.

Also, with the Wispmare vs. Ray of Revelation, you need 2 mana to hard-cast Ray. Obviously I'm referring to against leylines. This seems to present a problem. There are only really 3x other enchantments that present a problem to us other than Leyline--those are: Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, Moat and Humility; Humility can be slowly played around, but the rest really suck (Moat is what I was thinking about when I suggested Wonder). There's Deed, but it's needle-able as long as you do it the turn you go off. You can normally go off against any non-landstill list at goldfish speed that runs Deed, though.

I'm glad to see at least that no one here is trying to put in white for Tireless Tribe or some ****, unlike other sites.

I'll find parcher's list in a little bit.

I'm out.
The list above is not by any means optimal.

Eternal Witness can grab you back a draw spell (read: Careful Study/Breakthrough/Street Wraith) instead of or in addition to Sage. It can grab a Chain of Vapor or a Needle post-board. Even an LED in a pinch. It's basically Dredge's version of a Tutor.

I thought that...and i like. Have you tested it enough??

First, I play against Thresh (UGR mostly)/Landstill (4-c mostly)/counters.dec (a crappy wizard-permission list with Countertop) all the time, and I promise that 6x Discard spells are MUCH better than a 3rd DR. Dread Return requires 3x creatures in play, and you need at least 2 of them to be non-token most of the time. It's my opinion that the 3rd DR is a wasted slot. And why is no one listening to me about the damn Sage? If you can tell me one situation where a second sage would serve a purpose, I'll digress. But you can't, because it doesn't, so I won't ever have to. Look, the only purpose for sage is to continue dredging so you hit another bridge/Narc/DR/FKZ. You will not need to use 2. EVER. That creature slot is MUCH BETTER as PImp #4. The DR slot would work better as SW or the first of 2x Unmask.

I began to think about how many times we use dread return in a match and in an avegare i got 2 times: one for a pro combo creature (read: sage) and the second one for flame kjn zealot to win the game. So 2 DR could be enough.
I think that everything is a matter of chance. It is fact that with need 1-2 DR to win, but what is not a fact is that we can make use of them, because we need' em in yard. In part, that's why lots decide to run sage (x2) and DR x 3, because we need then in the graveyard to make use of them. May be i could look silly but i think that is a reasonable reason.
I find that replace 1 sage for 1 eternal make the diference against extirpate of course if we don't have BFB or DR in grave...I really like this change.

In your SB, I would drop a Darkblast in favor of the 4th Chain of Vapor. This is because Chain of Vapor takes care of everything that Darkblast does and then some. You can Chain back their Yixlid and then DR. You can even make them toss it if you are having a bad game or something with one of your 4 or 6 discard spells.

I agree, just 1 darkblast in SB?

Also, with the Wispmare vs. Ray of Revelation, you need 2 mana to hard-cast Ray. Obviously I'm referring to against leylines. This seems to present a problem. There are only really 3x other enchantments that present a problem to us other than Leyline--those are: Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, Moat and Humility; Humility can be slowly played around, but the rest really suck (Moat is what I was thinking about when I suggested Wonder). There's Deed, but it's needle-able as long as you do it the turn you go off.

What i like about wispmare is the potencial tokens that it can put into play, what i don't like is the non-flashback.
In this point, i found that wispmare is better than ray of revelation if our oponent starts the game with LOTV into play because in this case, 1 mana cast cost >>> flashback, for other cases i prefer the ray or ancient grudge.

I'm glad to see at least that no one here is trying to put in white for Tireless Tribe or some ****, unlike other sites.

jajaja!!! No chance for tribe here...
I agree, just 1 darkblast in SB?

Yes, unless you encounter Yixlid Jailer a lot.
No, even if you encounter Yixlid Jailer a lot, you still want only 1x D-Blast and 4x Chain of Vapor. This is because Chain of Vapor is just as capable of removing Jailer--you want 4x of them because they remove everything. I understand the Dredging thing on D-Blast, but I think Leylines are MUCH more popular, as they can screw up way more decks are are often considered better GY hate by most players running black GY hate.

If you think that 2x Darkblast is necessary (read: see tons of Yixlids) then I'd drop a Needle for it instead of a chain.

Yixlid meta SB:
3x Needle
4x LotV
4x Chain of Vapor
2x D-Blast
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Ray of Revelation

Some people often opt not to use an alternate DR target. If this is you, then add in your 4th Needle or an Ancient Grudge in A.C.'s place. It's my personal opinion based on experience that CoV should NEVER be included any less than a 4-of.

I'm out.
Yixlid meta SB:
3x Needle
4x LotV
4x Chain of Vapor
2x D-Blast
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Ray of Revelation

I would take the risk running the non yixlix meta sb:

4x Needle
4x LotV
4x Chain of Vapor
1x D-Blast
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Ray of Revelation

Tormod's crypt is commer tahn 2 yixlid!
Indeed, needles >>> D-Blast. I was just saying that for those who can't seem to understand the versatility of Chain of Vapor, they could try an additional Blast in tandem with the set of Vapors; that's all I meant.

I'm out.
Indeed, needles >>> D-Blast. I was just saying that for those who can't seem to understand the versatility of Chain of Vapor, they could try an additional Blast in tandem with the set of Vapors; that's all I meant.

I'm out.

Why is this not in the DtB section?? One of the best decks by far. Even more ridiculous then when it ran around in Ext. LED makes turn 1 kills so much easier.
Why is this not in the DtB section?? One of the best decks by far. Even more ridiculous then when it ran around in Ext. LED makes turn 1 kills so much easier.

It isn't in there because our Forum Leads, for whatever reasons, have not been putting any DtB threads in the subforum, even though we have a few that should be in there.
Oh well, who cares? I'll win with it whether or not it's in the DTB section. Of course, I say that about every deck I play, so...(note: that is not to say that every deck I play should be in the DTB section, I'm just not the humble type).

I'm out.
Going back on the Jesus' version...what did you cut to run unmask?
Breaktrouhg??
Yep. And I cut a Land, a Thug and a...hrm...either Careful Study or DA for the 3-of SW. I'm not sure, it was quite a while ago, but that looks right. I started as everyone did with the set of Breakthroughs, 12 lands and etc., but as time went on and testing happened @ the Source (these are by no means just my ideas, but they are relatively new to the list), we found out that SW doesn't slow the goldfish down by any relevent amount, and actually helps in both Ichorid Beatz mode AND in digging for the Chain of Vapor that will save your butt.

I'm starting to think that the 3rd Wraith might aught to be a Breakthrough. Still testing...jesus. I'm getting bored with all these turn 2 wins...lol.

I'm out.
Yep. And I cut a Land, a Thug and a...hrm...either Careful Study or DA for the 3-of SW. I'm not sure, it was quite a while ago, but that looks right. I started as everyone did with the set of Breakthroughs, 12 lands and etc., but as time went on and testing happened @ the Source (these are by no means just my ideas, but they are relatively new to the list), we found out that SW doesn't slow the goldfish down by any relevent amount, and actually helps in both Ichorid Beatz mode AND in digging for the Chain of Vapor that will save your butt.

I'm starting to think that the 3rd Wraith might aught to be a Breakthrough. Still testing...jesus. I'm getting bored with all these turn 2 wins...lol.

I'm out.

Okokok!! But the idea of run unmask is good or is simply an idea of yours because you were bored?? I mean is unmask necesary in the main deck? What's you experiencie?