'The Mountains Win Again': Popular Rogue Archetype

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So this deck used to basically be RW and then it morphed into a RWb or RWbu Hide // Seek Fish deck brought about by Chapin. I've finally decided that RB is the best way to go with this deck such that you can really hose decks with the power of a single threat: Magus Of The Moon. This is my Magus of the Moon version of 'The Mountains Win Again.' I'd like to know what you all think about its ability to combat the current contenders in the field. Every rogue strategy like this is going to be inherently underpowered, but these sorts of strategies thrive against decks running a great deal of 'POWER' go figure. Think of this deck kinda like Stax. It dumps its hand and then tries to keep the opponent off threats while beating for the win. The difference is that this deck runs direct Discard which in every way just seems >>>>> Sphere effects right now. The threats are smaller than those of Stax, but there is more consistency and synergy within the deck IMO. Here's my current list of TMWA.

'The Mountains Win Again'

IMAGE(http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/FUT/en-us/Card136152.jpg)IMAGE(http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/TOR/en-us/Card36111.jpg)IMAGE(http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/RAV/en-us/Card83771.jpg)
IMAGE(http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/1E/en-us/Card217.jpg)IMAGE(http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/DIS/en-us/Card97086.jpg)IMAGE(http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/LE/en-us/Card1431.jpg)

Land (17):
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Badlands
4 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

Artifacts (7):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

Creatures (17):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Magus Of The Moon
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Jagged Poppet
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Enchantments (3):
3 Chains Of Mephistopheles

Instants (5):
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries (11):
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor

SB
2 Rack And Ruin
4 Extirpate
4 Leyline Of The Void
1 Jagged Poppet
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Pyroblast

I personally think that the mox monkey deserves space in the main, and the numbers for duress and therapy should be switched.

Also, Dan thought that there should be 6 moon effects after board and that it was unneeded to run mountains, also that strips and wastes didn't fit too well. (Note too that TMWA is a highly flexible deck where the only requirements are for it to be "non-blue fish")

I still bring out a B/R TMWA deck for casual games. My list is suited to a more shop heavy environment. I try to go for an extremely fast disruptive start and let the amazingness of magus and chains/poppet finish up the game.
Show
// Lands
6 Swamp
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jagged Poppet
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Putrid Imp
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Viashino Heretic
// Enchantments
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Planar Void
// Spells
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
4 Unmask
// Artifacts
1 Lotus Petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Viashino Heretic
Vintage Deckbuilding-Your First Vintage Tournament
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I personally think that the mox monkey deserves space in the main, and the numbers for duress and therapy should be switched.

Also, Dan thought that there should be 6 moon effects after board and that it was unneeded to run mountains, also that strips and wastes didn't fit too well. (Note too that TMWA is a highly flexible deck where the only requirements are for it to be "non-blue fish")

I still bring out a B/R TMWA deck for casual games. My list is suited to a more shop heavy environment. I try to go for an extremely fast disruptive start and let the amazingness of magus and chains/poppet finish up the game.
Show
// Lands
6 Swamp
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jagged Poppet
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Putrid Imp
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Viashino Heretic
// Enchantments
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Planar Void
// Spells
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
4 Unmask
// Artifacts
1 Lotus Petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Viashino Heretic

I think you highly overrate Gorilla Shaman. Most decks don't run full power right now and Shaman is really only good at eating moxen. I dunno. mebbie he's better than I'm giving him credit for, but, in the current Flash/Tyrant/Storm heavy meta I'd rather have other disruption and Grim Lavamancer to try and finish the job once I've stabalized. Also, consider that, with mox monkey out, they'll just hold off on moxen until they can use them to win that turn. I think the power of the monkey has faded as the format has become more quick. Just my opinion though.

Therapy is the glue of this deck. I would never go to 3. Being able to discard a specific card from their hand even after THEY'VE duressed you on turn 1 by simply casting a guy is invaluable to me. In general, having 2 discard spells in 1 card is just plain CA that can't be denied. Mind explaining your reasoning?

Also, I realize this is a highly flexible archetype with many different color schemes (I've tried em all. RW, RWB, RWBg, RWBu-for ancestral and time walk so the blue doesn't really count-, RGw), but I've now found that RB seems to have the best options for the current meta IMO. I'd like to know what Dan thinks of my list too. Can I PM him on TMD?

As for your list. Cards I question are:

Putrid Imp
Shaman/Heretic (lack of good Stax out there)
Planar Void (too slow to have an effect against Flash if they are on the play and can be countered by FoW. Leyline seems better)
Unmask (I actually don't hate this choice, but I'd like a little more explanation on it from you)
First here is the link to the "current" TMWA thread (mostly discussing RB build)
www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=343...

I say cut one therapy for one duress because your creatures are all supposed to be important lock down elements.

As to shaman and heretic, my list was geared towards shop decks but heretic stops tinker colossus from being a viable out for your opponent (heretic hits faster) and the monkey goes along with being as disruptive as possible in the first 1-2 turns (a must for every current viable deck in vintage), though his slot isn't set in stone by any means.

The putrid imp is there for two reasons, 1 to ensure an active poppet whenever I want, even with bob on the table, and to have a flying jitte (both can be very important).

Unmask is there, once again, to increase the speed in which this deck interacts.

Void over Leyline is simply because I didn't have 4 slots for it, Leyline is better, but if you don't run 4 it's pointless, Void gives you an out against ichorid and shuts off will plans (the deck was made before flash got popular, so it certainly needs some tweaking).
Vintage Deckbuilding-Your First Vintage Tournament
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First here is the link to the "current" TMWA thread (mostly discussing RB build)
www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=343...

I say cut one therapy for one duress because your creatures are all supposed to be important lock down elements.

As to shaman and heretic, my list was geared towards shop decks but heretic stops tinker colossus from being a viable out for your opponent (heretic hits faster) and the monkey goes along with being as disruptive as possible in the first 1-2 turns (a must for every current viable deck in vintage), though his slot isn't set in stone by any means.

The putrid imp is there for two reasons, 1 to ensure an active poppet whenever I want, even with bob on the table, and to have a flying jitte (both can be very important).

Unmask is there, once again, to increase the speed in which this deck interacts.

Void over Leyline is simply because I didn't have 4 slots for it, Leyline is better, but if you don't run 4 it's pointless, Void gives you an out against ichorid and shuts off will plans (the deck was made before flash got popular, so it certainly needs some tweaking).

I think putrid Imp is a poor synergy with the rest of your deck and a bad way to acheive hellbent. I'd rather just play all my dudes. Here's a poppet list that I'm working on.

Howl Of Seven Moons

Land (18):
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
3 Badlands
4 Swamp
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland

Artifacts (5):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring

Creatures (13):
4 Jagged Poppet
4 Magus Of The Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Phyrexian Negator

Enchantments (6):
3 Chains Of Mephistopheles
3 Blood Moon

Instants (9):
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Snuff Out
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries (9):
4 Duress
4 Unmask
1 Demonic Tutor

SB
3 Extirpate
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Viashino Heretic
1 Phyrexian Negator
4 Chalice Of The Void

I'm too tired to discuss right now, but I'll get to the card choices a bit later. Cheers!
After some suggestions from Dan at TMD here is my updated BR TMWA:

BR ‘The Mountains Win Again’

Land (18):
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
3 Badlands
6 Swamp
2 Mishra’s Factory
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (6):
1 Black Lotus (0)
1 Lotus Petal (0)
1 Mox Ruby (0)
1 Mox Jet (0)
2 Umezawa’s Jitte (2)

Creatures (15):
3 Gorilla Shamanm (R)
4 Dark Confidant (1B)
4 Magus Of The Moon (2R)
4 Simian Spirit Guide (2R)

Enchantments (3):
2 Chains Of Mephistopheles (1B)
1 Blood Moon (2R)

Instants (7):
3 Red Elemental Blast (R)
1 Vampiric Tutor (B)
3 Extirpate (B)

Sorceries (11):
4 Cabal Therapy (B)
3 Duress (B)
3 Thoughtseize (B)
1 Demonic Tutor (1B)

SB
2 Rack And Ruin (2R)
2 Viashino Heretic (2R)
1 Blood Moon (2R)
1 Chains Of Mephistopheles (1B)
4 Leyline Of The Void (2BB)
2 Goblin Bombardment (1R)
1 Umezawa’s Jitte (2)
1 Pyroclasm (1R)
1 Red Elemental Blast (R)
tell me if theres something i dont know, but.
-1 swamp
+1 badlands
what, if i may ask, is so good about jagged poppet? he seems a little weird to me.
what, if i may ask, is so good about jagged poppet? he seems a little weird to me.

He makes your opponent discard his/her hand. It's just that he's crap with Confidant.
would mogg fanatics work? I havent seen any builds using it.
would mogg fanatics work? I havent seen any builds using it.

It should run Fanatic in my opinion: it's cheap, reliable, and hates on Ichorid and Flash (by killing Carrion Feeder, I think, although this may not work).
It should run Fanatic in my opinion: it's cheap, reliable, and hates on Ichorid and Flash (by killing Carrion Feeder, I think, although this may not work).

I think that works, response to saccing the original Body Double you sac the Fanatic, opponent fetches Lark and Fanatic but has no way of killing Lark. You just have to find a way to win before you get beaten to death while not killing Reveillark in the process.
I think that works, response to saccing the original Body Double you sac the Fanatic, opponent fetches Lark and Fanatic but has no way of killing Lark. You just have to find a way to win before you get beaten to death while not killing Reveillark in the process.

Which is what Stingscourger and your general other beats should be for.
I would think just sitting and waiting on a Jitte would be the easiest play since they probably won't be able to race.
could someone explain "chains of mephistopheles" or just a general example of a situation where it's used..

im terrible at multiple replacement effects on one card

other than that i love the deck :D and was going to throw it together on
Show
MWS
untill i saw the chains and i really dont know how to explain the card effectively to someone who's never seen it before
Basically how Chains of Mephistopheles works is like this: Player A controls Chains. Player B casts Ancestral Recall with 3 cards left in hand. Each draw is replaced individually. Player B discards a card, draws 1, discards 1, draws 1, discards 1, and draws the 3rd. He ends up with 3 cards in hand instead of the 6 he would normally end up with after that Recall.
This is the closest archetype I can label the following deck as. It's just kind of home-brewed. I took the 8-Duress idea that worked so well for GAT and translated it over to Force of Will-less land. This is also for Post-Restriction.


3 x Magus of the Moon
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Fulminator Mage

4 x Duress
4 x Thoughtseize
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Vampiric Tutor

From here I got lost. Assuming I dedicate around 22 slots to mana, I have 15 slots available.

The artifact hate that I'm considering for the inevitable rise of shop has been:
Artifact Mutation, Ancient Grudge, Gorilla Shaman, Viashino Heretic, or Rack and Ruin.

There's also Eternal Witness, Grim Lavamancer, Lightning Bolt, Terminate, and Extirpate/Leyline of the Void/Fairy Macabre. Maybe Snuff Out or Unmask or Jagged Poppet.

Any help here?
So I see that you have set yourself into , artifact mutation and shaman/goblin vandal are your best weapons for handling artifacts.

Creature kill should probably be snuff outs main with some number of diabolics side. You should also think about running Pyrokinesis, though it gets hairy with bob.

Don't discount planar void when thinking of grave hate, especially if you run bob.

Ankh of mishra should be your best friend, and maybe zo-zu, the punisher too. Also take a look at pyrostatic pillar.
Vintage Deckbuilding-Your First Vintage Tournament
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This is the closest archetype I can label the following deck as. It's just kind of home-brewed. I took the 8-Duress idea that worked so well for GAT and translated it over to Force of Will-less land. This is also for Post-Restriction.


3 x Magus of the Moon
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Fulminator Mage

4 x Duress
4 x Thoughtseize
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Vampiric Tutor

From here I got lost. Assuming I dedicate around 22 slots to mana, I have 15 slots available.

The artifact hate that I'm considering for the inevitable rise of shop has been:
Artifact Mutation, Ancient Grudge, Gorilla Shaman, Viashino Heretic, or Rack and Ruin.

There's also Eternal Witness, Grim Lavamancer, Lightning Bolt, Terminate, and Extirpate/Leyline of the Void/Fairy Macabre. Maybe Snuff Out or Unmask or Jagged Poppet.

Any help here?

Well, if you're in R/B/g, then Fulminator Mage is always blech. He's a bear that more often than not you'll just sack, and as such is way too weak for a format like Vintage. As for what you should run, some of your creature suggestions seem weak as the soon-to-be Vintage will probably not be creature-based, but more Ichorid/Shop-based. So, lots of arty hate like Gorilla Shaman 1-2 Viashino Heretic, Goblin Welder, Oxidize, Ancient Grudge, Goblin Vandal etc. for Shop as suggestions, things for Ichorid including MD Tormod's Crypt and Mogg Fanatic along with Leyline of the Void, and in terms of other green spells aside from utility cards like Goyf and Oxidize, then no other cards immediately jump out (though an Eternal Witness or two would be good, too bad it's :g.

Anyways, I hope that that was helpful,
-Teh Comrade
I've been looking to build a chains deck for a while, or more precicely, a deck with chains in it. anyway, this is pretty much how mine was shaping up to look, except i was thinking of switchingout the bloodmoon/magus effect and fitting in crucible of worldls/wasteland/strip mine. also, what does everyone think about using [C]Shocker[/C]? or is that too limited and weak? Personally, i think you need room for dark rituals, as well as running 4 negators. a 5/5 stompy first turn is worth pretty much any possible annoyance!

Oh, and I know he probably won't make it into the final deck, but [C]Demigod of Revenge[/C] seems like he wants to go in the deck, but that huge casting costs scares me. although, two dark rituals takes care of that a few turns into the game.
A rough concept I made two days ago.



// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [A] Scrubland
2 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [A] Plateau
1 [A] Badlands
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [4E] Strip Mine

// Creatures
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [SOK] Kataki, War's Wage
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon

// Spells
1 [A] Mox Ruby
1 [A] Mox Pearl
1 [A] Mox Jet
1 [A] Black Lotus
1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [P3] Imperial Seal
1 [VI] Vampiric Tutor
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [US] Duress
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [A] Demonic Tutor
1 [A] Balance

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [DIS] Hide/Seek
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

How does it look? Bear me some mercy, I've been absent from T1 for a long time.
Hmm... I was wonder a budget version of this deck for casual would be good. And by budget I mean no power nine and 50 dollar cards. lol. $20 or less is good. I like the deck a lot but I don't plan on playing vintage (or at least non-proxy) until I get rich.

Any advice on what to replace? This is kind of a vintage metadeck, so I don't know what's changeable really. I don't wanna lose to standard kithkin or anything...
A tmwa deck that is less than 20 dollars will not be playable nor good. And if you dont plan on playing vintage until you "get rich" why are you posting here?
NO LOTUS MUTHA ****IN' SHOPS BURN'T DOWN THE MUTHA ****IN' GENCON
A rough concept I made two days ago.



// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [A] Scrubland
2 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [A] Plateau
1 [A] Badlands
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [4E] Strip Mine

// Creatures
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [SOK] Kataki, War's Wage
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon

// Spells
1 [A] Mox Ruby
1 [A] Mox Pearl
1 [A] Mox Jet
1 [A] Black Lotus
1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [P3] Imperial Seal
1 [VI] Vampiric Tutor
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [US] Duress
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [A] Demonic Tutor
1 [A] Balance

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [DIS] Hide/Seek
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

How does it look? Bear me some mercy, I've been absent from T1 for a long time.

Actually, this list is fairly standard. Maybe not 4 Goblin Welder or Yixlid Jailers, though.

Something I have absolutely no idea about and haven't tried is Tidehollow Sculler. I've seen Mesmeric Fiend before, so it seems OK. Also, MD Jitte is just fine, as well.
I don't think you need 4 jailers but they are certainly good for you g1 match-up against ichorid. Also, its not a bad card anyways.
NO LOTUS MUTHA ****IN' SHOPS BURN'T DOWN THE MUTHA ****IN' GENCON
It neuters powerful card drawing engines and spells, like Ancestral Recall and such, that this deck can't counterspell or redirect in the same way others can.
A tmwa deck that is less than 20 dollars will not be playable nor good. And if you dont plan on playing vintage until you "get rich" why are you posting here?

I think its pretty obvious I meant $20 a card.
Actually, this list is fairly standard. Maybe not 4 Goblin Welder or Yixlid Jailers, though.

Something I have absolutely no idea about and haven't tried is Tidehollow Sculler. I've seen Mesmeric Fiend before, so it seems OK. Also, MD Jitte is just fine, as well.

if your using 4colors why not just go for a 4color control? actually i think i even saw a psychatog deck that looked alot like this. i like the [C]tidehollow sculler[/C],i was thinking of a build along side [C]mesmeric fiend[/C]. the way i see it is this deck repeats what 3color fish,black sui,or even zoo try to do already!..
How much are grindstones right now? You could try Robert Vroman's RB Painter build without the power. Something akin to this, but with a little searching you might be able to find a better list already posted:
1 Balance
4 Pyroblast
3 Hide/Seek
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Grindstone
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Painter's Servant
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mox Jet
4 Badlands
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Thoughtseize
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Confidant
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Mogg Fanatic
SB: 3 Viashino Heretic
SB: 3 Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Magus of the Moon

Vintage Deckbuilding-Your First Vintage Tournament
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so, I hate to be the noob who asks, but I'm so confused. No matter how many times I read it and try to make sense of it, I can't. I read the rulings too, but I don't understand the process of Chains of Mephistopheles.

So, if I have chains out and my opponents ancestral recalls how does that work?

Draw 1 replaced by discard 1 x3
followed by Draw 3 more, but does that then repeat itself considering it would trigger the first effect?

Please help?
Drawing Multiple Cards

Drawing a card is a fairly easy thing to understand. You take the top card from your library and add it to you hand. This happens all the time, at least once every turn and often more than that. Simple huh? Fine, let’s make it a bit more complex.


There are plenty of spells and abilities in Magic that cause a player to draw more than one card, such as Ancestral Recall or the ability of Cephalid Broker. Any time you are instructed to draw more than a single card you are really being told to ‘Draw a card’ that many times. For example ‘Draw three cards,’ is really ‘Draw a card, then draw a card then draw a card.’ The reason for this is that the definition of drawing a card is, as pointed out above, to take the top card of your library and put it into your hand. There can only be one top card of your library at any given time, so you can only really draw that card. This is why when drawing multiple cards with Future Sight in play you reveal the new top card in-between each individual draw. Future Sight’s static ability is applied at all times, even in-between each of these individual draws.
Ok, so even that is not too difficult to understand. Let’s throw in what we learned about how Chains of Mephistopheles’ ability works. If ‘Draw three cards’ becomes ‘Draw a card, then draw a card then draw a card,’ then with a Chains in play that will become ‘Discard a card; if you do discard then draw, if you didn’t discard then ‘mill,’ then discard a card; if you do discard then draw, if you didn’t discard then ‘mil,’ then discard a card; if you do discard then draw, if you didn’t discard then ‘mill.’ This is because each time you draw a card is an event that the Chains’ replacement effect can change.

And it’s important to follow those instructions in the order given. In the example above where a player is instructed to draw three cards, if that player had at least one card in hand the end result is similar to that of a player drawing three cards, and then discarding three cards in that this player will end up just one card in hand. But if you have only one card in your hand and are instructed to draw three cards with Chains in play, then you will always end up having the third card from the top of your library as the sole remaining card in your hand.
NO LOTUS MUTHA ****IN' SHOPS BURN'T DOWN THE MUTHA ****IN' GENCON
Chains doesn't trigger. Ever. Because its not a trigger. Its a replacement.

419.6a A replacement effect doesn’t invoke itself repeatedly and gets only one opportunity for each event.

If you opponent has some number of cards in his hand, and Ancestral resolves targeting him here is what happens:

He discards a card
Then draws a card
Then discards a card
Then draws a card
Then discards a card
Then draws a card

Brainstorm is similar, but ends in him putting two cards back on top.

If he has no cards in hand, he mills 3 cards.
Level 2 Magic Judge Lite a man a fire, warm him for a day. Light a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
edited: thank you Leftconsin
wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?...

The article that Lylac is quoting.
Vintage Deckbuilding-Your First Vintage Tournament
Yes, that IS a picture of me that I am using for my avatar.
wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?...

The article that Lylac is quoting.

Yep, I could have sworn I pasted that link though...
NO LOTUS MUTHA ****IN' SHOPS BURN'T DOWN THE MUTHA ****IN' GENCON
What would happen if you only had two cards in your had when your opponent targeted you with the Ancestral Recall? For the first draw event you can discard two cards and then get to draw a card. However when you come up to the second draw you can not discard two cards, but you still have to discard the one left in your hand. Because you did not discard twice in this instance, you will not draw at all but will end up milling a card. Finally you deal with the third draw, you can’t even discard one card, but you will still only mill one. (This is because you don’t apply the effect from the second Chains to this third draw. You only apply the effect from an additional Chains if you do discard a card during the application of the first replacement ability and are then allowed to draw.) This situation was a lot worse than the previous one, your hand is now empty and you’ve milled two cards.
NO LOTUS MUTHA ****IN' SHOPS BURN'T DOWN THE MUTHA ****IN' GENCON
EDIT: I'm wrong for the momonet, will look into it further

Until then, here is part of the rulings section for chains:

10/4/2004 The effect is cumulative. If there are two of these in play, each of them will modify each draw (after the first one if during the draw step), and will cause the player to discard or to "mill" a card from their library. As they resolve in order, the player must discard if possible. Once the player fails to discard and instead "mills" a card, all further effects of additional Chains of Mephistopheles will not do anything. This is because the "mill" also replaces the draw effect and the player is no longer drawing a card. You handle them in order. Each one makes you discard first and then continue or else mill a card and lose the draw.
Vintage Deckbuilding-Your First Vintage Tournament
Yes, that IS a picture of me that I am using for my avatar.
To clarify, as soon as you run out of cards to discard and have to mill one, you don't mill again, even if therer are multiple chains out, because there is no longer a draw to replace.

Wiley explained it, but it is a kinda confusing card.

So. Is anyone still fiddling with tmwa?

www.nogoblinsallowed.com

 

A creative hub for art and all things Magical, Dungeony, and Dragony!

 

Feel free to copy this into your sig, adding one to the generation number.

 

Generation=0

I finished 10th out of 35 people in a $500 vintage tournament using the deck from the first post without ever playing the deck or ever playing vintage for that matter! It was an unlimited proxy tourny and I just ripped the decklist from this thread right before the tourny.

Nice deck I was one top decked lightning bolt away from top 8