Spell "Heat Metal"

Is it purpose that this spell does not give a saving throw on the effect (it only gives one for not dropping the object). Cast against someone wearing a heavy armor (which he "cannot drop" as he is wearing it), and he gets automatic 3d8 damage (or more on higher levels) and gets disadvantage on his ability and attack rolls for a round - this sounds WAYS too strong for a 2nd level spell.

 

Is it possible that by mistake a Saving throw "on success, nothing happens at all" is missing? Another alternative would be that the spell would not work on items worn by people (the heat metal spell in another, non-D&D RPG-System worked like this).

 

H E A T  space M E T A L

 

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

mellored wrote:

H E A T  space M E T A L

 

 

Now use it in a sentence. =)

 

I just said something and you just read it. Sorry about that.

Compared to other second level spells like Soundburst (3d8 area, deafens) or Scorching Ray (up to 6d6, or 2d6 against 3 target, twice the range of HM) it's in line. It's single target, so it can be allowed to have a better effect.

No mistake. Pretty sweet spell. Doesn't replace others though so it's all good.

In the past, Heat Metal didn't work at all on elven chain and magical armor received an item save.   Of course it also lasted for 7 rounds with the middle rounds doing the most damage. 

 

The last round was the best.

 

"* On the final round of searing, the afflicted creature must roll a successful saving throw vs. spell or suffer one of the following disabilities: hand or foot--becomes unusable for 2d4 days; body--becomes disabled for 1d4 days; head--fall unconscious for 1d4 turns. This effect can be completely removed by the 6th-level priest spell heal spell or by normal rest.


Wow. In those days the hot metal must have really demoralized and tired out the targets limb/body/head.

DemoMonkey wrote:

Wow. In those days the hot metal must have really demoralized and tired out the targets limb/body/head.

 

lol.

 

Note the following.... 

 

" ...the caster is able to make ferrous metal (iron, iron alloys, steel) extremely hot.... During the second and sixth (next to the last) rounds, heat causes blisters and damage; in the third, fourth, and fifth rounds, the metal becomes searing hot, causing damage to exposed flesh,...Note also that materials such as wood, leather, or flammable cloth smolder and burn if exposed to searing hot metal. Such materials cause searing damage to exposed flesh on the next round...."

 

Yes, even when the spell makes it very clear that it burns flesh it's not real damage it's just demoralizing and exhausting.  

 


Single target no save compared to sound burst AoE with a save seems fair.  It's not like magic missile needs a save or hit roll either and it has twice the range, versatility in number of targets, and a lower level; used in the same 2nd level slot magic missile is the superior spell.  Moonbeam, flaming sphere, melf's acid arrow, scorching ray, or lower level spells like thunderwave or burning hands can be a better choice.  Since it's not an attack it doesn't gain benefits that a lot of other spells do.

 

I would have a hard time to call it over powered; no save/hit roll is one of the situational redeeming qualities. 

dmgorgon wrote:

 

Note the following.... 

 

" ...the caster is able to make ferrous metal (iron, iron alloys, steel) extremely hot....

 

Apparently non-ferrous metals don't conduct heat in D&D-land.

dmgorgon wrote:

 

DemoMonkey wrote:

Wow. In those days the hot metal must have really demoralized and tired out the targets limb/body/head.

 

 

lol.

 

Note the following.... 

 

" ...the caster is able to make ferrous metal (iron, iron alloys, steel) extremely hot.... During the second and sixth (next to the last) rounds, heat causes blisters and damage; in the third, fourth, and fifth rounds, the metal becomes searing hot, causing damage to exposed flesh,...Note also that materials such as wood, leather, or flammable cloth smolder and burn if exposed to searing hot metal. Such materials cause searing damage to exposed flesh on the next round...."

 

Yes, even when the spell makes it very clear that it burns flesh it's not real damage it's just demoralizing and exhausting.  

 

Are we really doing the meat vs non-meat argument again? This is clearly not the place for it.

Dark_Stryke wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:

 

DemoMonkey wrote:

Wow. In those days the hot metal must have really demoralized and tired out the targets limb/body/head.

 

 

lol.

 

Note the following.... 

 

" ...the caster is able to make ferrous metal (iron, iron alloys, steel) extremely hot.... During the second and sixth (next to the last) rounds, heat causes blisters and damage; in the third, fourth, and fifth rounds, the metal becomes searing hot, causing damage to exposed flesh,...Note also that materials such as wood, leather, or flammable cloth smolder and burn if exposed to searing hot metal. Such materials cause searing damage to exposed flesh on the next round...."

 

Yes, even when the spell makes it very clear that it burns flesh it's not real damage it's just demoralizing and exhausting.  

 

 

Are we really doing the meat vs non-meat argument again? This is clearly not the place for it.

 

No, but once and a while it's fun to kick the dead horse.


Ashrym wrote:

Single target no save compared to sound burst AoE with a save seems fair.  It's not like magic missile needs a save or hit roll either and it has twice the range, versatility in number of targets, and a lower level; used in the same 2nd level slot magic missile is the superior spell.  Moonbeam, flaming sphere, melf's acid arrow, scorching ray, or lower level spells like thunderwave or burning hands can be a better choice.  Since it's not an attack it doesn't gain benefits that a lot of other spells do.

 

I would have a hard time to call it over powered; no save/hit roll is one of the situational redeeming qualities. 

 

The point is not the damage. The point is the disadvantage on attack rolls. So what do you think on this situation. DM brings an enemy caster who just does 5 rounds in a row Heat Metal on one of the metal armor wearing player characters (always the same player character) and that player gets disadvantage on ALL attack rolls for the whole encounter. And does not get any way to avoid it, hurray Not that this happened to anyone in my group yet, but it WOULD be optimal combat strategy. IF the spell is too weak with a save I think its damage would need to get upped (maybe some more dmg in followup rounds?), NOT making the disadvantage effect automatic.

 

Had the "automatic" discussion with our DM about magic missile already. Currently we use a 2-ray scorching ray stat for Magic Missiles instead of the auto-hit (our main GM basically said "spells dont autohit when I DM" and we all saw his point. But for Heat Metal it is actually WORSE than with Magic Missile (where it is just a little dmg... though even that was pretty bad when people focussed out "main bad guys" with several wands of magic missile - and giving every main bad guy the Shield spell is NOT a stylish solution).

 

MagicSN

dmgorgon wrote:
No, but once and a while it's fun to kick the dead horse.
Dead horses are 100% meat.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

mellored wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:
No, but once and a while it's fun to kick the dead horse.

Dead horses are 100% meat.

 

lol.    I prefer horse meat that's cooked well. 

 

Perhaps Heat Metal is really a spell for cooking your horse when you run out of rations. 


What makes very little sense about heat metal is that a cummoner with their 2-4 HP cannot possibly ever survive against a heat metal spell. Wouldn't this imply that the heat produced by this spell is in the 100s of degrees range? How does anyone survive a full duration of this spell if it can kill a regular human in a matter of seconds.

 

Once again, this would imply that HP are plot armor. Only logical explanation.

Imsolost wrote:

What makes very little sense about heat metal is that a cummoner with their 2-4 HP cannot possibly ever survive against a heat metal spell. Wouldn't this imply that the heat produced by this spell is in the 100s of degrees range? How does anyone survive a full duration of this spell if it can kill a regular human in a matter of seconds.

 

Once again, this would imply that HP are plot armor. Only logical explanation.

No. No no no. We are not having this debate. I don't care what side of it you are on. This was a relatively simple balance/rules question. Let's keep it that way.

Automatic anything is bad, because it's an objective world where the bad guys get the same toys as the heroes. Fortunately, another reading of the spell turns out an alternative:

 

If a creature is holding or wearing the object and takes damage from it, the creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or drop the object. If it is not able to drop the object, the creature has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks until the spell ends.

 

This can be read that you only suffer disadvantage if you cannot drop the object when you would be forced to drop it - i.e. when you fail your save. If you make the save, you don't have to drop the object, so you don't suffer the penalty for failing to do so.

 

It's probably not the literal, grammatically-correct reading, because it's not a dependent clause, but I think you could make the case that this was how the rule was intended to be used.

The metagame is not the game.

Imsolost wrote:

What makes very little sense about heat metal is that a cummoner with their 2-4 HP cannot possibly ever survive against a heat metal spell. Wouldn't this imply that the heat produced by this spell is in the 100s of degrees range? How does anyone survive a full duration of this spell if it can kill a regular human in a matter of seconds.

 

Once again, this would imply that HP are plot armor. Only logical explanation.

Same as fireball, or burning hands really.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

mellored wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:
No, but once and a while it's fun to kick the dead horse.

Dead horses are 100% meat.

 

Mold and mildew are not meat.

 

Maggots, however, meat.

Gunthar wrote:

 

mellored wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:
No, but once and a while it's fun to kick the dead horse.

Dead horses are 100% meat.

 

Mold and mildew are not meat.

 

Maggots, however, meat.

 

Rot grubs?

 

You know those small creatures that will viciously burrow into any living flesh that touches them and then kill when they reach the heart.


mellored wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:
No, but once and a while it's fun to kick the dead horse.

Dead horses are 100% meat.

 

No, dead horses have a percentage of bone and fat, as well as foreign substances.

     Wearing metal armor directly over your skin results in lots of pinching and chaffing.

 

   Pretty much any helmet or suit of armor containing lots of metal comes with some kind of padding in the form of an arming cap, gambeson, leggings, or something else.  That, or it has a layer of soft material built into it to prevent direct contact with the skin.

 

   Now as for ladies in chainmail bikinis...

Padding is flammable.  Very flammable given the majority of materials that are both durable and comfortable enough to wear.  

 

Another argument is, even oven mits are meant to be used quickly to remove and set the hot item down.  They provide enough protection for a very limited amount of time.

 

Blacksmith's glove are meant to be tough and flame-resistant, but you wouldn't see them gripping the heated piece of metal directly.  They use tongs or the far end of the piece being heated, because the heat still transfers through.  

 

So I'd rule any gambeson or other armor padding isn't going to provide anything more than a temporary reprieve from the heat, and might even cause further problems if it catches fire.  I think I'd make the probability of it catching fire a random roll though, in the spirit of DM mercy.  :P

MagicSN wrote:

 

Ashrym wrote:

Single target no save compared to sound burst AoE with a save seems fair.  It's not like magic missile needs a save or hit roll either and it has twice the range, versatility in number of targets, and a lower level; used in the same 2nd level slot magic missile is the superior spell.  Moonbeam, flaming sphere, melf's acid arrow, scorching ray, or lower level spells like thunderwave or burning hands can be a better choice.  Since it's not an attack it doesn't gain benefits that a lot of other spells do.

 

I would have a hard time to call it over powered; no save/hit roll is one of the situational redeeming qualities. 

 

 

The point is not the damage. The point is the disadvantage on attack rolls. So what do you think on this situation. DM brings an enemy caster who just does 5 rounds in a row Heat Metal on one of the metal armor wearing player characters (always the same player character) and that player gets disadvantage on ALL attack rolls for the whole encounter. And does not get any way to avoid it, hurray Not that this happened to anyone in my group yet, but it WOULD be optimal combat strategy. IF the spell is too weak with a save I think its damage would need to get upped (maybe some more dmg in followup rounds?), NOT making the disadvantage effect automatic.

 

Had the "automatic" discussion with our DM about magic missile already. Currently we use a 2-ray scorching ray stat for Magic Missiles instead of the auto-hit (our main GM basically said "spells dont autohit when I DM" and we all saw his point. But for Heat Metal it is actually WORSE than with Magic Missile (where it is just a little dmg... though even that was pretty bad when people focussed out "main bad guys" with several wands of magic missile - and giving every main bad guy the Shield spell is NOT a stylish solution).

 

MagicSN

 

 

I think granting the player in your example advantage neutralizes the disadvantage but the enemy caster doing so will only impact one member of the party at best with a situational ability and will stop soon enough by the death status if it really does appear to be an issue.  As far as damage goes, there's no real difference between automatic damage and higher damage with a percentage to hit, and often the higher damage with a percentage is better.

 

If I could cast heat metal 5 rounds in a row I would just cast call lighting once instead, so that I could target 1-4 creatures in the area and do 22 average damage, 11 on a save, for more than 13.5 automatic once per round to one target situationally for most of my spell slots instead of one spells slot.  That would be true of enemy spell casters too.

The problem is most weapons and armor may have metal, but the underlying layers or even grips are made of leather or other material to make the metal wearable.

dmgorgon wrote:

 

Dark_Stryke wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:

 

DemoMonkey wrote:

Wow. In those days the hot metal must have really demoralized and tired out the targets limb/body/head.

 

 

lol.

 

Note the following....

 

" ...the caster is able to make ferrous metal (iron, iron alloys, steel) extremely hot.... During the second and sixth (next to the last) rounds, heat causes blisters and damage; in the third, fourth, and fifth rounds, the metal becomes searing hot, causing damage to exposed flesh,...Note also that materials such as wood, leather, or flammable cloth smolder and burn if exposed to searing hot metal. Such materials cause searing damage to exposed flesh on the next round...."

 

Yes, even when the spell makes it very clear that it burns flesh it's not real damage it's just demoralizing and exhausting.

 

 

Are we really doing the meat vs non-meat argument again? This is clearly not the place for it.

 

No, but once and a while it's fun to kick the dead horse.

 

Is this the horse that died of being overly tired of being repeatedly missed by someone with a great axe?... or the horse which got hit 5 times by a longsword and only had a physical wound on the last stroke?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein

LupusRegalis wrote:

Padding is flammable.  Very flammable given the majority of materials that are both durable and comfortable enough to wear.

 

Another argument is, even oven mits are meant to be used quickly to remove and set the hot item down.  They provide enough protection for a very limited amount of time.

 

Blacksmith's glove are meant to be tough and flame-resistant, but you wouldn't see them gripping the heated piece of metal directly.  They use tongs or the far end of the piece being heated, because the heat still transfers through.

 

So I'd rule any gambeson or other armor padding isn't going to provide anything more than a temporary reprieve from the heat, and might even cause further problems if it catches fire.  I think I'd make the probability of it catching fire a random roll though, in the spirit of DM mercy.  :P

 

Medieval armour padding was made of wool.

 

Wool was used in airforce uniforms in times past in many countries because it is very resistant to burning.

 

So padding would not actually have been easily flammable.

 

But this is simulationist - Heat Metal is balanced well enough game-wise.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein

Caliburn101. wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:

 

Dark_Stryke wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:

 

DemoMonkey wrote:

Wow. In those days the hot metal must have really demoralized and tired out the targets limb/body/head.

 

 

lol.

 

Note the following....

 

" ...the caster is able to make ferrous metal (iron, iron alloys, steel) extremely hot.... During the second and sixth (next to the last) rounds, heat causes blisters and damage; in the third, fourth, and fifth rounds, the metal becomes searing hot, causing damage to exposed flesh,...Note also that materials such as wood, leather, or flammable cloth smolder and burn if exposed to searing hot metal. Such materials cause searing damage to exposed flesh on the next round...."

 

Yes, even when the spell makes it very clear that it burns flesh it's not real damage it's just demoralizing and exhausting.

 

 

Are we really doing the meat vs non-meat argument again? This is clearly not the place for it.

 

No, but once and a while it's fun to kick the dead horse.

 

 

Is this the horse that died of being overly tired of being repeatedly missed by someone with a great axe?... or the horse which got hit 5 times by a longsword and only had a physical wound on the last stroke?

 

No its the one that died from sheer boredom at listening to doam arguments. We call him the "sane horse".

Caliburn101. wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:

 

Dark_Stryke wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:

 

DemoMonkey wrote:

Wow. In those days the hot metal must have really demoralized and tired out the targets limb/body/head.

 

 

lol.

 

Note the following....

 

" ...the caster is able to make ferrous metal (iron, iron alloys, steel) extremely hot.... During the second and sixth (next to the last) rounds, heat causes blisters and damage; in the third, fourth, and fifth rounds, the metal becomes searing hot, causing damage to exposed flesh,...Note also that materials such as wood, leather, or flammable cloth smolder and burn if exposed to searing hot metal. Such materials cause searing damage to exposed flesh on the next round...."

 

Yes, even when the spell makes it very clear that it burns flesh it's not real damage it's just demoralizing and exhausting.

 

 

Are we really doing the meat vs non-meat argument again? This is clearly not the place for it.

 

No, but once and a while it's fun to kick the dead horse.

 

 

Is this the horse that died of being overly tired of being repeatedly missed by someone with a great axe?... or the horse which got hit 5 times by a longsword and only had a physical wound on the last stroke?

 

No, this is that horse that forces PCs to share their actions with it, but doesn't do the same for the NPCs    

 

 


Azzy1974 wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:

 

Note the following.... 

 

" ...the caster is able to make ferrous metal (iron, iron alloys, steel) extremely hot....

 

Apparently non-ferrous metals don't conduct heat in D&D-land.

 

It has nothing to do with not conducting heat... it is called induction. An oscilating electromagnetic field can only heat up ferrous metal, because of its ferromagnetic properties. (Like the induction stove, which can heat the ferrous metal pot without getting hot itself.)

 

So yes, D&D physics is totally realistic in that regard.

UngeheuerLich wrote:

 

Azzy1974 wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:

 

Note the following.... 

 

" ...the caster is able to make ferrous metal (iron, iron alloys, steel) extremely hot....

 

Apparently non-ferrous metals don't conduct heat in D&D-land.

 

 

It has nothing to do with not conducting heat... it is called induction. An oscilating electromagnetic field can only heat up ferrous metal, because of its ferromagnetic properties. (Like the induction stove, which can heat the ferrous metal pot without getting hot itself.)

 

So yes, D&D physics is totally realistic in that regard.

 

Unless the descriptions says so, you're making an assumption that the spell works by induction heating the armor.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

MechaPilot wrote:

 

UngeheuerLich wrote:

 

Azzy1974 wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:

 

Note the following.... 

 

" ...the caster is able to make ferrous metal (iron, iron alloys, steel) extremely hot....

 

Apparently non-ferrous metals don't conduct heat in D&D-land.

 

 

It has nothing to do with not conducting heat... it is called induction. An oscilating electromagnetic field can only heat up ferrous metal, because of its ferromagnetic properties. (Like the induction stove, which can heat the ferrous metal pot without getting hot itself.)

 

So yes, D&D physics is totally realistic in that regard.

 

 

Unless the descriptions says so, you're making an assumption that the spell works by induction heating the armor.

 

I understood that in a previous edition, only ferrous metals can be affected by heat metal. And Azzy though it is funny that only ferrous metals conduct heat. just wanted to show that it is not illogical at all that only ferrous metal can be heated, as it does not necessarily has something to do with conduction. Induction heating is a possible explanation based on real world physics. Does that spell make use of electromagnetic waves? Possibly not. But it is not unrealistic.

UngeheuerLich wrote:

 

Azzy1974 wrote:

 

dmgorgon wrote:

 

Note the following.... 

 

" ...the caster is able to make ferrous metal (iron, iron alloys, steel) extremely hot....

 

Apparently non-ferrous metals don't conduct heat in D&D-land.

 

 

It has nothing to do with not conducting heat... it is called induction. An oscilating electromagnetic field can only heat up ferrous metal, because of its ferromagnetic properties. (Like the induction stove, which can heat the ferrous metal pot without getting hot itself.)

 

So yes, D&D physics is totally realistic in that regard.

 

That's an interesting interpretation of the spell, really the only interpretation that makes sense given the spell description. Good show, UL!

Induction heating only works on ferrous metals?  Odd.

 

http://www.uchino-tec.co.jp/english/products/products_a/nf_series.html

Chakravant wrote:

Induction heating only works on ferrous metals?  Odd.

 

http://www.uchino-tec.co.jp/english/products/products_a/nf_series.html

Clearly that's a more advanced spell.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

mellored wrote:

 

Chakravant wrote:

Induction heating only works on ferrous metals?  Odd.

 

http://www.uchino-tec.co.jp/english/products/products_a/nf_series.html

 

Clearly that's a more advanced spell.

The point lies more in the Physics than in the TTRPG analogy.

I always thought it only worked on iron/steel because of how much fae hate iron (in myth and sometimes in D&D mechanics). Since druids are connected to fae, their magic turns iron against its users. Or whatever.

I don't understand what the problem is with the magic of the spell requiring ferrous metals.   It's not about physics or anything like that, its just how the magic of the spell functions.  


Caliburn101. wrote:

 

Medieval armour padding was made of wool.

 

Wool was used in airforce uniforms in times past in many countries because it is very resistant to burning.

 

So padding would not actually have been easily flammable.

 

But this is simulationist - Heat Metal is balanced well enough game-wise.

 

Even if the padding itself does not catch on fire, that dosen't stop the heat from broiling the person inside. Firefighters wear fireproof clothing, but they can still die from hyperthermia (opposite of hypothermia) just from being in a hot room too long.

 

 

 

 

also: observe an artificier using a stored "heat metal" spell:

"Ha! Rock beats scissors!" "Darn it! Rock is overpowered! I'm not playing this again until the next edition is released!" "C'mon, just one more." "Oh, all right..." "Wait, what is that?" "Its 'Dynamite' from the expanded rules." "Just because you can afford to buy every supplement that comes out..." "Hey, it's completely balanced! You're just a bad DM for not accommodating it."

Show
RPGs are getting more popular, and whenever something gets more popular, it inevitably changes, usually becoming more palatable to the masses. Nintendo is the perfect example. In the old days their games coined the term "Nintendo hard" to extend play time, but they knew their fans were dedicated enough to play anyway. Now they mostly make stuff a five year old can master. That's not necessarily bad, though. Most of those old Nintendo games were infuriating. Likewise, a lot of old RPGs were too complex and irritating for the average person to really get into. Rules light systems are going to get more popular as more people enter the hobby, simply because the new people aren't bound by nostalgia, and would rather play something easy and fun than something that takes a huge amount of effort to learn.

dmgorgon wrote:

I don't understand what the problem is with the magic of the spell requiring ferrous metals.   It's not about physics or anything like that, its just how the magic of the spell functions.  

 

So you never questioned why a spell entitled "heat metal" only applied to one type of metal when there's no additional explanation given? Never thought it was the least bit quirky?

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