Psionics != Dark Sun

Actually I'm on board with this one.

 

Then again if both came out very early to launch all-the-better (even if Psionics is not in the PHB).

 

I wouldn't hold my breath for either though.

 

I just said something and you just read it. Sorry about that.

My only real experience with Psionics is with 1e & 2e, and in both cases I think the problem was the same: the psionics system felt tacked on, and didn't mesh well with the game's framework. So I guess I'd say that my one request for Psionics is that they know they're going to add it eventually, and that they provide space for it in the core rules.

With 1e I certainly agree it felt tacked on (Gygax even has said so himself) but it was quit powerful, though a touch complicated. As for 2e it seemed, to me at least, as free-flowing with the ruleset as spells were. Then again, I'm a Dark Sun fanatic so go figure.

 

I just said something and you just read it. Sorry about that.

In 4th edition Psionics were adressed in the second PHB. Would that be early enough for you? Though I do want you to have what you want I don't think its reasonable to expect psionics any sooner than that, I'm afraid. 

Wrongturn wrote:

In 4th edition Psionics were adressed in the second PHB. Would that be early enough for you? Though I do want you to have what you want I don't think its reasonable to expect psionics any sooner than that, I'm afraid. 

 

It was actually the third PHB, just for a slight correction in timeline, but was still fairly early and, to me at least, didn't feel very tacked on compared to the psionics from 2e (didn't have enough experience with 3e Psionics to say how that feels)

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The psionics powers ought to be in the first player handbook and Monster Manual, and the true psionic classes could wait until the first "demicore" book.

 

I love the idea of psionic ardents with a love-hate relation with clerics, there is a great potential to create stories..

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

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I find it unlikely that publication will follow a 4e style. In 4e the PHB 2 and 3 were supposed to be more "PHB, part 2" or "PHB Annual, volume 2." 3e PHB 2 was a peripheral supplement nobody (exaggeration) used. There probably won't even *be* a PHB 2 in 5e--and good riddance I say. Put out additional materials where they belong, in specific thematic supplements. One of those early supplements should (and probably will) be a Psionics Handbook of some sort.

Scottevil912 wrote:

 

Wrongturn wrote:

In 4th edition Psionics were adressed in the second PHB. Would that be early enough for you? Though I do want you to have what you want I don't think its reasonable to expect psionics any sooner than that, I'm afraid. 

 

 

It was actually the third PHB, just for a slight correction in timeline, but was still fairly early and, to me at least, didn't feel very tacked on compared to the psionics from 2e (didn't have enough experience with 3e Psionics to say how that feels)

 

Thank you for correcting me.

 

In addition you've emphasized what I've tried to point out in my post: psionics were printed relatively early in 4th edition's run. What supplement it actually was printed in was irrelevant. I also don't think the 'style' of publication warrants a discussion for this topic (though it is an interesting topic).

 

I would like to know what would satisfy you, Spykes. When should psionics see print? Do you feel it should be part of the core rules or are you ok with a supplement coming out somewhat later? When do you anticipate the Dark Sun Campaign Setting to be sold? How long could you wait before you decide to say "To hell with this, I'll go spend my money on something else!"? I think it would help your plea a bit more to have this information.

5e looks promising, with Psionic classes using the normal mechanics of other classes. Sooner is much better than later.

 

4e did good by making psionic merely an other power source.

 

However, for me as a 4e fan, the third Players Handbook was way too late to introduce the psionic power source. Because it arrived so late, it felt redundant and nonbelonging. Moreover its fringe mechanics continued the tradition of tacked-on brokenness. Many of the most stupid builds in the Character Optimization exploited the irregularity of the psionic mechanics. Flavorwise, the non-innate flavor turned me off. It suggested the Far Realms was the cause and ultimate source of all psionic phenomena, not ones own mind. Mechanically, the Telepath with a crappy telepathy ability and the Telekinetic without an impressive atwill telekinesis that scaled verged on offensive toward psionic fans. All in all, 4e failed its promise to normalize psionic within normal D&D.

 

The power of the mind is central in reallife medieval animistic and mystical traditions. The modern pseudo-scientific jargon is unnecessary.

 

For me, the power of ones own mind is an important trope.  I hope D&D 5e makes this trope work well.

 

 

I have a love/hate relationship with psionics.  I love the idea of them, but never seem to be impressed by the rules.  I would like to see them sooner than later only so certain enemies/monsters can make use of them in a fashion that is integrated with player abilities.  I want to see a standardized system of psionics and a class with a similar structure to the other classes. 

I want Psionics to be a core power sourse, like in 4e. But, they should be adressed in the PHB right away. That way, people like me could run a convincing Dark Sun 5e campaign w/o any 5e Dark Sun setting books.

 

I keep saying this, but, the 5* power sources of 4e (I don't include Shadow. THAT seemed tacked on.) Should be in the first, and hopefully only, 5e PHB. 4e showed how psionics can feel not tacked on, or not over powered. Also, it allowed for you to just pick psionic, unlike older editions where everyone had a small d% roll chance of being psionic.

 

I just hope they don't make 5e all about Forgotten Realms for a year or more. I want to play in non-Tolkien rip-off/clone fantasy worlds.

 

 

 

 

 

*Martial, Primal, Divine, Psionic, Arcane.

I don't want to be an edition warrior. I think there was something good and something bad in all the editions I played. I do, however, believe that the game has gotten better over the years (and decades). I hope this holds true into the future.

Peace.

 

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Aren't they rolling psionics into a mage subclass? That was the last I heard on that. If something's changed and they aren't, then, well, they pulled their heads out and I'll celebrate.

Oh all the money that e'er I spent,I spent it in good company And all the harm that e'er I've done, Alas, it was to none but me, And all I've done for want of wit, To memory now I can't recall, So fill to me the parting glass. Good night and joy be with you all

Haldrik wrote:

5e looks promising, with Psionic classes using the normal mechanics of other classes. Sooner is much better than later.

 

4e did good by making psionic merely an other power source.

 

However, for me as a 4e fan, the third Players Handbook was way too late to introduce the psionic power source. Because it arrived so late, it felt redundant and nonbelonging. Moreover its fringe mechanics continued the tradition of tacked-on brokenness. Many of the most stupid builds in the Character Optimization exploited the irregularity of the psionic mechanics. Flavorwise, the non-innate flavor turned me off. It suggested the Far Realms was the cause and ultimate source of all psionic phenomena, not ones own mind. Mechanically, the Telepath with a crappy telepathy ability and the Telekinetic without an impressive atwill telekinesis that scaled verged on offensive toward psionic fans. All in all, 4e failed its promise to normalize psionic within normal D&D.

 

The power of the mind is central in reallife medieval animistic and mystical traditions. The modern pseudo-scientific jargon is unnecessary.

 

For me, the power of ones own mind is an important trope.  I hope D&D 5e makes this trope work well.

 

I don't like either flavor personally, except in particular cases. I reflavor psionics as divine or arcane, as I believe appropriate, using a mana system instead of a slot system. This isn't meant as a critique on those who do like the flavor. Its meant to showcase the ease of reflavoring the class without affecting the mechanics.
I hope the mechanics turn out a little better this time both in terms of balance as well as granting the abilities fitting with specific archetypes.

 

Seti wrote:
I want Psionics to be a core power sourse, like in 4e. But, they should be adressed in the PHB right away. That way, people like me could run a convincing Dark Sun 5e campaign w/o any 5e Dark Sun setting books.

 

I keep saying this, but, the 5* power sources of 4e (I don't include Shadow. THAT seemed tacked on.) Should be in the first, and hopefully only, 5e PHB. 4e showed how psionics can feel not tacked on, or not over powered. Also, it allowed for you to just pick psionic, unlike older editions where everyone had a small d% roll chance of being psionic.

 

I just hope they don't make 5e all about Forgotten Realms for a year or more. I want to play in non-Tolkien rip-off/clone fantasy worlds.

 

 

 

 

 

*Martial, Primal, Divine, Psionic, Arcane.

 

I've been wondering whether putting psionics in the first PHB would be a good move. The more I think about it I think it should be. I think a lot of the negativity about psionics can be attributed to its late introduction, therefor not feeling as if it is part of the world, like Haldrik said. I don't see it happening, to be honest, but I would like to be pleasantly surprised.

 

I think it would be awesome to get a book that would showcase a number of different settings, allowing people to try out settings they haven't done before and allowing players to start playing their preferred setting sooner rather than later. More specific setting-related books could come later, allowing for far more detail. That said, this has no bearing on this topic. I might create a thread about this later tonight.

 

Thisishowitends wrote:

Aren't they rolling psionics into a mage subclass? That was the last I heard on that. If something's changed and they aren't, then, well, they pulled their heads out and I'll celebrate.

 

The Sorceror and the Warlock are no longer considered to be a Mage subclass. Though the psion hasn't been explicitly stated as becoming a separate class in its own right as well, I think its safe to assume that it will be. So... go celebrate!

It should come out very early hopefully.

 

Eberron has a core psionic race, a large group of bad guys with them, and a whole continent based on psionics instead of magic.

 

Forgotten Realms, I never played but doesn't Elminster have psionics as well as arcane and divine magic.  I think there are a few other major NPC's that have some form of psionics aswell.

 

Darksun, nuff said lots and lots of psionics.

 

They are not the most common form of supernatural power in D&D worlds but I think almost all of them have psionics in some form.

 

 

Remember this is a public forum where people express their opinions assume there is a “In my humble opinion” in front of every post especially mine.  

 

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Psion should be a class, and mentalist a mage subclass.

 

Could we use the term "esper" for psionic channeller? Esper is from "extransensory perception" but it is similar to Latin word "sperantia" what means "hope".

 

Psychic warrior could be a figther subclass. Lurk (complete psionic) a rogue subclas,but ardent (divine mind) is a too interesting concept to be only a subclass.

 

Wilder ought to be a psionic class but it need a special gameplay, and the idea of "betting" pps isn´t interesing for me.

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Sad thing was, in 4th Darksun was the pinnacle of 4ths system. It brought in themes and was the best written campaign book. After that it was all down hill(essentials).

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

     Psionics is a] SF nonsense that only marginally gets in the game because we pretty much let anything into the game, whether it fits or not, and b] has been so routinely broken that it can not be allowed into the game without a close look, which our presumed deadline does not allow.  Come back for PH2 or 3 or...

Psionic can be used in oriental adventures, like Kara-tur or al-Qadim, and psionic monsters can be interesting.

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Wrongturn wrote:
I would like to know what would satisfy you, Spykes. When should psionics see print? Do you feel it should be part of the core rules or are you ok with a supplement coming out somewhat later? When do you anticipate the Dark Sun Campaign Setting to be sold? How long could you wait before you decide to say "To hell with this, I'll go spend my money on something else!"? I think it would help your plea a bit more to have this information.

I'm glad you asked. I personally don't think that ALL of the Psionic classes need to be defined with the initial core rules, however, I do think that the mechanics of the psionic rules themselves should be defined, which probably mean defining the Psion class at least. It also includes taking a look at the spells that are already in the game and making decisions regarding them based on the inevitability of the Psion class entering the game. By that I mean, making sure that the powers that the Psion brings to the table are unique and iconic for psionic powers. This mean telekenisis, ESP, projection, time manipulation, teleportation psychic attacks. All of these things are "mental" in nature and should be defined as such up front, or at least have some foresight applied that insures that the Psion is the undisputed master of these areas. I know there are arcane equivilents, but the Psion should do this type of thing better than anyone, since that's what they hope to bring to the table. This is important to think about now so that when they finally get around to addressing the Psion, he is not just a watered down Mage that duplicates arcane spells that shouldn't have been arcane spells in the first place.

@Wrongturn: YES!!!! YES YES YES!!!!!

Oh all the money that e'er I spent,I spent it in good company And all the harm that e'er I've done, Alas, it was to none but me, And all I've done for want of wit, To memory now I can't recall, So fill to me the parting glass. Good night and joy be with you all

Wrongturn wrote:
The Sorceror and the Warlock are no longer considered to be a Mage subclass. Though the psion hasn't been explicitly stated as becoming a separate class in its own right as well, I think its safe to assume that it will be. So... go celebrate!

I very much hope you are right. However, they have left the Artificer in the Mage class, so I'm not so sure quite yet.

It will always be the tacked on, son-on-of-a-b*tch product that no one gives a crap about, unless it is in included in the initial product.

Brock_Landers wrote:

It will always be the tacked on, son-on-of-a-b*tch product that no one gives a crap about, unless it is in included in the initial product.

Ageed!

The sad thing is that by refusing to look at it now, they allow iconic Psion powers to remain in the game now as arcane spells, dooming the Psion class before it is even thought about.

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