Monsters...what are they good for?

Cause really I am looking at the Balor with his three mighty +8 attacks, the Pit Fiend with his two +10s and a +8 and the Red Dragon with his +7 and two +6s and wondering how these even made it into the play test when their very best attack only has a 50% chance of hitting a Fighter wearing a normal non-magical Plate Mail and Shield.

Now if he uses the Defensive ability and has a +1 magical armour and shield then all of a sudden the Dragon needs a 16 or better to hit with his bite.

My suggestion: At the very least monsters need to be adding a proficiency bonus to their attacks.

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And dont even get me started on their AC's as well: Balor AC 16, Pit Fiend AC 17 and Red Dragon AC 15.

So Red Dragon scale is not even as good as Chainmail?  Really? 

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I think you're looking at it wrong. The bonus Chainmail provides assumes that an enemy will miss not only because of the Chainmail, but also just the enemy missing, be it through an ineffective hit, or missing the target, or even some limited mobility (yes, I mean even in absense of a Dex bonus). With Dragon Scale, it might be tougher than even plate, but dragons are big targets, and not particularly able to dodge the same way even the limited amount chainmail does. When you miss a dragon, it's rarely because you miss them entirely, it's more often just that you clang against their scales. Where with Chainmail, it might be 70% time that it's the chainmail, and 30% that the arrow just whizzes past the fighter, or that he can roll with the sword blow a bit.

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Yes, we've never gotten reasonable monsters.  Even before the multi-classing rules "hard" fights were steam-rolled by us, there was really no point in "play testing", because it wasn't testing anything, it was just hitting a punching bag.  Now it's just stupid.  Now we don't even bother buffing, we're already god-mode.

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Avric_Tholomyes wrote:

I think you're looking at it wrong. The bonus Chainmail provides assumes that an enemy will miss not only because of the Chainmail, but also just the enemy missing, be it through an ineffective hit, or missing the target, or even some limited mobility (yes, I mean even in absense of a Dex bonus). With Dragon Scale, it might be tougher than even plate, but dragons are big targets, and not particularly able to dodge the same way even the limited amount chainmail does. When you miss a dragon, it's rarely because you miss them entirely, it's more often just that you clang against their scales. Where with Chainmail, it might be 70% time that it's the chainmail, and 30% that the arrow just whizzes past the fighter, or that he can roll with the sword blow a bit.

Yes I could accept that if there was actually a Size penalty factored in, but if you look at the Equipment section, Dragon Scale gives the same AC for PC's plus their Dex bonus as well.

So any Dragon (or any creature really) would be better to equip themselves with some kind of forged armour and shield which is really rediculous when you imagine it.

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FFSAA wrote:

Yes, we've never gotten reasonable monsters.  Even before the multi-classing rules "hard" fights were steam-rolled by us, there was really no point in "play testing", because it wasn't testing anything, it was just hitting a punching bag.  Now it's just stupid.  Now we don't even bother buffing, we're already god-mode.

At the moment the most effective monsters to throw up against the party are another NPC party of Fighter/Cleric/Mage etc.

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They haven't really modified any of the monster numbers in ages. There are simply too many monsters to modify all of them every packet to keep even with PC abilities. Once they start actually playtesting they'll hammer out the expected numbers and tweak all the monsters then.

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Shasarak wrote:

 

Avric_Tholomyes wrote:

I think you're looking at it wrong. The bonus Chainmail provides assumes that an enemy will miss not only because of the Chainmail, but also just the enemy missing, be it through an ineffective hit, or missing the target, or even some limited mobility (yes, I mean even in absense of a Dex bonus). With Dragon Scale, it might be tougher than even plate, but dragons are big targets, and not particularly able to dodge the same way even the limited amount chainmail does. When you miss a dragon, it's rarely because you miss them entirely, it's more often just that you clang against their scales. Where with Chainmail, it might be 70% time that it's the chainmail, and 30% that the arrow just whizzes past the fighter, or that he can roll with the sword blow a bit.

 

Yes I could accept that if there was actually a Size penalty factored in, but if you look at the Equipment section, Dragon Scale gives the same AC for PC's plus their Dex bonus as well.

So any Dragon (or any creature really) would be better to equip themselves with some kind of forged armour and shield which is really rediculous when you imagine it.

Just because the packet doesn't specifically say whether there's size factored in or not, doesn't mean it's not there. As for the equipment, I don't think it specifically means much. After all, I wouldn't expect to suddenly gain a dragon's toughness simply by wearing its scales as a suit of armor. I imagine there's more to it than that, considering that dragon hide consists of more than just the scales, let alone only the scales suitably sized and shaped for armor. Maybe a bit of a stretch, I'll admit, but personally it makes sense that dragons are more durable than most humanoids in armor, but not substantially harder to hit in game terms, due to their size and such.

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Avric_Tholomyes wrote:

 

Shasarak wrote:

 

Avric_Tholomyes wrote:

I think you're looking at it wrong. The bonus Chainmail provides assumes that an enemy will miss not only because of the Chainmail, but also just the enemy missing, be it through an ineffective hit, or missing the target, or even some limited mobility (yes, I mean even in absense of a Dex bonus). With Dragon Scale, it might be tougher than even plate, but dragons are big targets, and not particularly able to dodge the same way even the limited amount chainmail does. When you miss a dragon, it's rarely because you miss them entirely, it's more often just that you clang against their scales. Where with Chainmail, it might be 70% time that it's the chainmail, and 30% that the arrow just whizzes past the fighter, or that he can roll with the sword blow a bit.

 

Yes I could accept that if there was actually a Size penalty factored in, but if you look at the Equipment section, Dragon Scale gives the same AC for PC's plus their Dex bonus as well.

So any Dragon (or any creature really) would be better to equip themselves with some kind of forged armour and shield which is really rediculous when you imagine it.

 

Just because the packet doesn't specifically say whether there's size factored in or not, doesn't mean it's not there. As for the equipment, I don't think it specifically means much. After all, I wouldn't expect to suddenly gain a dragon's toughness simply by wearing its scales as a suit of armor. I imagine there's more to it than that, considering that dragon hide consists of more than just the scales, let alone only the scales suitably sized and shaped for armor. Maybe a bit of a stretch, I'll admit, but personally it makes sense that dragons are more durable than most humanoids in armor, but not substantially harder to hit in game terms, due to their size and such.

There could be a size penalty to Dexterity which in turn would affect the Monsters AC but there seems to be no size factor on the actual material itself.

If we look at the Bestiary we can see the Red (and Black and White) Dragon has an AC of 15 with a Dex bonus of +0 (as compared to the Blue and Green Dragons that have an AC of 16 with a Dex bonus of +1).

If we look at the Equipment list we can see that Dragon Scale (which is made from a Dragons scales) gives an AC of 15 + Dex.

Therefore we can assume that no matter who is 'wearing them' Dragon Scale gives an AC of 15. 

And it sounds like you are happy for Dragon scale to be less protective then chainmail but it is not a perspective that I share.

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I don't think it's quite a flavorfully identical situation, in terms of dragons simply being as though they were humans wearing dragon scale, even if mechanically they're equal, but then again, I'm fine with varying what makes a hit a hit or a miss a miss depending on the fluff of the creature. As such, an Human Soldier, with 16 AC might not have tougher armor than a dragon's Hide, but because of his skill as a fighter, he can avoid attacks more easily, be it through parries or dodges, or what have you.

It's basically the case of Hitting a broad-side of a very difficult to penetrate barn, vs hitting something human sized, that's more squishy.

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Well let us look at Giants for comparison:

Storm and Fire Giants wear Plate mail and have an AC of 18 which is the same as a medium sized human wearing Plate mail.

Cloud Giants wear Banded and have an AC of 17 which is the same as a medium sized human wearing Banded mail.

Frost Giants wear Dragon Scale and have an AC of 16 (including Dex bonus of +1) which is the same as a medium sized human wearing Dragon scale with a Dex bonus of +1 as well as a Blue or Green Dragon.

Hill Giants wear Hide and have an AC of 11 (including Dex bonus of -1) which is the same as a medium sized human wearing Hide with a Dex bonus of -1.

So, to me, it looks like hitting the broad side of a platemail wearing barn is going to be exactly the same in game terms of AC as hitting a person wearing platemail.

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Shasarak wrote:

So, to me, it looks like hitting the broad side of a platemail wearing barn is going to be exactly the same in game terms of AC as hitting a person wearing platemail.

I don't really see a problem with that.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

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Shasarak wrote:

So, to me, it looks like hitting the broad side of a platemail wearing barn is going to be exactly the same in game terms of AC as hitting a person wearing platemail.

But wouldn't platemail made for a giant be thicker than a set made for a humanoid? It's simply the same case; The size makes the giant easier to hit, but the platemail is more able to deflect or absorb hits, by virtue of it's greater toughness. In mechanical terms they cancel out, so there's no point in even worrying about it, but in fluff terms, I'm going to describe a miss on a giant or a dragon as it clanging off armor or scales, more often than I would do so with a humanoid, which would sometimes clang off armor, and other times be either sidestepped or otherwise avoided, of if the roll was really bad, flying off wildly.

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MechaPilot wrote:

 

Shasarak wrote:

So, to me, it looks like hitting the broad side of a platemail wearing barn is going to be exactly the same in game terms of AC as hitting a person wearing platemail.

 

I don't really see a problem with that.

From what I understand Avrics argument to be, the AC of a platemail covered Barn should theoretically be less then that of a person wearing platemail because it is as easy to hit as the side of a Barn.

But that does not seem to be the case at the moment.

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Avric_Tholomyes wrote:

 

Shasarak wrote:

So, to me, it looks like hitting the broad side of a platemail wearing barn is going to be exactly the same in game terms of AC as hitting a person wearing platemail.

 

But wouldn't platemail made for a giant be thicker than a set made for a humanoid? It's simply the same case; The size makes the giant easier to hit, but the platemail is more able to deflect or absorb hits, by virtue of it's greater toughness. In mechanical terms they cancel out, so there's no point in even worrying about it, but in fluff terms, I'm going to describe a miss on a giant or a dragon as it clanging off armor or scales, more often than I would do so with a humanoid, which would sometimes clang off armor, and other times be either sidestepped or otherwise avoided, of if the roll was really bad, flying off wildly.

Yes but from your own argument, the Giant should be easier to hit because they are a Giant target.

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Shasarak wrote:

 

MechaPilot wrote:

 

Shasarak wrote:

So, to me, it looks like hitting the broad side of a platemail wearing barn is going to be exactly the same in game terms of AC as hitting a person wearing platemail.

 

I don't really see a problem with that.

 

From what I understand Avrics argument to be, the AC of a platemail covered Barn should theoretically be less then that of a person wearing platemail because it is as easy to hit as the side of a Barn.

But that does not seem to be the case at the moment.

Depends on what you mean by "hit."

If you mean the English definition, then it is easier to hit.  But, the English definition doesn't require damage to be part of hitting something.

If you mean the D&D definition (a result that leads to a loss of HPs), then it isn't easier to hit.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

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How are dragons terrorizing villages? Any hafling village would kill a dragon without hassle. But they wouldnt bother skinning it, since their blacksmith can make better armor.

Shasarak wrote:

 

Avric_Tholomyes wrote:

 

Shasarak wrote:

So, to me, it looks like hitting the broad side of a platemail wearing barn is going to be exactly the same in game terms of AC as hitting a person wearing platemail.

 

But wouldn't platemail made for a giant be thicker than a set made for a humanoid? It's simply the same case; The size makes the giant easier to hit, but the platemail is more able to deflect or absorb hits, by virtue of it's greater toughness. In mechanical terms they cancel out, so there's no point in even worrying about it, but in fluff terms, I'm going to describe a miss on a giant or a dragon as it clanging off armor or scales, more often than I would do so with a humanoid, which would sometimes clang off armor, and other times be either sidestepped or otherwise avoided, of if the roll was really bad, flying off wildly.

Yes but from your own argument, the Giant should be easier to hit because they are a Giant target.

That's what my point was; they are easier to hit. The Platemail is thicker, and thus tougher. It averages out, so there's no reason to worry about what the offset is due to size. Just narrate it as clanging off armor rather than a miss.

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kalil wrote:

How are dragons terrorizing villages? Any hafling village would kill a dragon without hassle. But they wouldnt bother skinning it, since their blacksmith can make better armor.

What Villiage can deal 172 Hp of damage to a dragon, before it burns the villiage to the ground? And that's the villiagers who manage to get past the Frightening presence effect. Remembers, Dragons Fly. Their only defense isn't just AC. They can breathe fire down upon your villiage, and be out of reach of any melee attack, so you've got only as many attacks as the town has bows and crossbows.

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Avric_Tholomyes wrote:

 

kalil wrote:

How are dragons terrorizing villages? Any hafling village would kill a dragon without hassle. But they wouldnt bother skinning it, since their blacksmith can make better armor.

 

What Villiage can deal 172 Hp of damage to a dragon, before it burns the villiage to the ground? And that's the villiagers who manage to get past the Frightening presence effect. Remembers, Dragons Fly. Their only defense isn't just AC. They can breathe fire down upon your villiage, and be out of reach of any melee attack, so you've got only as many attacks as the town has bows and crossbows.

Well Halflings get advantage on fear saves and are also probably using Slings so most of the village would be armed.

My suggestion would be to sit in their platearmoured barn shooting it while it fails around ineffectively.  

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Shasarak wrote:

 

Avric_Tholomyes wrote:

 

kalil wrote:

How are dragons terrorizing villages? Any hafling village would kill a dragon without hassle. But they wouldnt bother skinning it, since their blacksmith can make better armor.

 

What Villiage can deal 172 Hp of damage to a dragon, before it burns the villiage to the ground? And that's the villiagers who manage to get past the Frightening presence effect. Remembers, Dragons Fly. Their only defense isn't just AC. They can breathe fire down upon your villiage, and be out of reach of any melee attack, so you've got only as many attacks as the town has bows and crossbows.

Well Halflings get advantage on fear saves and are also probably using Slings so most of the village would be armed.

My suggestion would be to sit in their platearmoured barn shooting it while it fails around ineffectively.  

A sling has a normal range of 30 feet. The dragon has a range of 60 ft with its breath. It will still burn down a majority of the town before it's even bothered by the NPC Halflings with no class-levels.

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Avric_Tholomyes wrote:

 

Shasarak wrote:

 

Avric_Tholomyes wrote:

 

kalil wrote:

How are dragons terrorizing villages? Any hafling village would kill a dragon without hassle. But they wouldnt bother skinning it, since their blacksmith can make better armor.

 

What Villiage can deal 172 Hp of damage to a dragon, before it burns the villiage to the ground? And that's the villiagers who manage to get past the Frightening presence effect. Remembers, Dragons Fly. Their only defense isn't just AC. They can breathe fire down upon your villiage, and be out of reach of any melee attack, so you've got only as many attacks as the town has bows and crossbows.

Well Halflings get advantage on fear saves and are also probably using Slings so most of the village would be armed.

My suggestion would be to sit in their platearmoured barn shooting it while it fails around ineffectively.  

 

A sling has a normal range of 30 feet. The dragon has a range of 60 ft with its breath. It will still burn down a majority of the town before it's even bothered by the NPC Halflings with no class-levels.

I'll see your 60 foot breath weapon and raise you a maximum range of 120 feet with the sling.

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Shasarak wrote:

 

Avric_Tholomyes wrote:

 

Shasarak wrote:

 

Avric_Tholomyes wrote:

 

kalil wrote:

How are dragons terrorizing villages? Any hafling village would kill a dragon without hassle. But they wouldnt bother skinning it, since their blacksmith can make better armor.

 

What Villiage can deal 172 Hp of damage to a dragon, before it burns the villiage to the ground? And that's the villiagers who manage to get past the Frightening presence effect. Remembers, Dragons Fly. Their only defense isn't just AC. They can breathe fire down upon your villiage, and be out of reach of any melee attack, so you've got only as many attacks as the town has bows and crossbows.

Well Halflings get advantage on fear saves and are also probably using Slings so most of the village would be armed.

My suggestion would be to sit in their platearmoured barn shooting it while it fails around ineffectively.  

 

A sling has a normal range of 30 feet. The dragon has a range of 60 ft with its breath. It will still burn down a majority of the town before it's even bothered by the NPC Halflings with no class-levels.

I'll see your 60 foot breath weapon and raise you a maximum range of 120 feet with the sling.

Max range, sure, but that's with disadvantage, and it's the dragon who controls how high up he flies.

But getting in this deep a discussion about a monster whose stats are in development, for whom we've seen more current ideas of what they will look like (It was a black dragon, but I assume most things will carry over) when they finish up with Legendary creature rules, is probably moot. The point is, the mobility of a dragon in open sky is one of its' greatest advantages defensively. As such, it's unlikely any halfling villiage would be able to stand up to a dragon strike.

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I think there is abit much focus on one area of the creatures stat block. Look at the bigger pictures.

Intelligence : In the real world Wolves and Killer Whales will use hit and run on packs of prey to make a weak one seperate. Then they chase their prey for hours, until the prey is exhausted. Then they attack. By D&D standards these critters have 2 Int.

Red Dragon has Int 11. So average human intelligence, far above most animals. At the very least it will circle its prey and attack while the prey is weak. In the case of the village, attack at night, or do hit and run against the outlying farms or patrols to weak and confuse it. Also Dragons would have Kobold minions, to attack from another direction, grab the loot and slaves, maybe even take some of the heat off the dragon from the militia archers.

Abherrants like Mind Flayers and Fiends like Balor... aside from being Highly intelligent, also when you live for decades if not centuries in areas where all your peers and minions see you not only as competition but a possible meal, No Way are you going to use simple tactics. You use your minions. You use traps. You have escape routes. You use treachery to get allies and enemies to weaken your targets for you. By the time your target attempt to engage you they are hindered, wounded and have depleted resources.

Attitude : Some creatures will go berserk when wounded and fight to the death. However most will reconsider the situation as soon as they are wounded, trying to attack from anothe direction, gather allies, use the terrain or just flee. They do not go ah it's only 10% of my Hit Points, i'll stay and fight. DM's need to play creature and people realistically.

Key things for D&D - Where is the character from and why do they do what they do? / Recurring NPCs - allies and enemies / Plot, World and Personal Events.

An army of a thousand level one fighters will bring down Asmodeus with minimal casualties. Asmodeus is basically a god. He should not be brought down by anything less than something of like power. I find it hard to believe he is in power given that Pit Fiends are innumerable, and are almost as powerful as he is.

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He also shouldnt be attempting straight fight with an army, he should be using deception and trickery to win.

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Adding the proficiency bonus to AC, attacks, and saves for the non-humanoid (non-equipment users) will be an optional fix for me.  They have levels (HD) so it will be as workable as my current re-do of the 4e monster math.

I may give humanoids (Armor users) to proficiency bonus to atttacks and some saves like characters.

But at a certain point I'll just use 4e monsters against the Next party and adjust the math if I need to do it anyway.

AC 11/13/15+(Prof HD), attack +3+(Prof HD), Damage 3+HD average (x2 for elite, x4 for solo), HP Standard (min for minions, max for elites, double max for solos) etc.

Sometimes I think people play two totally differnt games.  It seems one side treats battles like just a bucket of stats (monsters) thrown against another bucket of stats (the players) and sees which average value comes out on top, while the other side treats monsters like intelligent beings where combat takes place in an interactive world.

 

And never the two shall meet.  The posts by each side are shot like canon fire over the bow of each, never truly hitting.

Thisishowitends wrote:

An army of a thousand level one fighters will bring down Asmodeus with minimal casualties.

 

How do you figure?  Let's just ignore the fact that ASmodeus will not be alone, and will probably have his own army of devils or at the very least devils he's summoned (like a pit fiend).  The vast majority of any army is going to fail their save just by looking at him, meaning that he isn't going to be taking any real damage, especially with his resistences. What army is going to be armed with silver weapons?

So while this army is cowering in fear, he's taken control of the commander, and is laughing as havoc runs rampant through the ranks of the army, topped off by area of affect spells that are literally blasting the soldiers to bits.  It's not like all 1000 fighters can all get an attack on each round.  And for some reason if things aren't looking good?  Wish.

Shasarak wrote:

Cause really I am looking at the Balor with his three mighty +8 attacks, the Pit Fiend with his two +10s and a +8 and the Red Dragon with his +7 and two +6s and wondering how these even made it into the play test when their very best attack only has a 50% chance of hitting a Fighter wearing a normal non-magical Plate Mail and Shield.

Now if he uses the Defensive ability and has a +1 magical armour and shield then all of a sudden the Dragon needs a 16 or better to hit with his bite.

My suggestion: At the very least monsters need to be adding a proficiency bonus to their attacks.

Wait, you think hitting a guy in the best non-magical armour in the game "only" half the time is bad?

If anything, I'd like to see armour represented as being more effective, not less. I want to be made to feel as though it's actually worth the effort to save up for, purchase, and run around in heavy armour for once.

If anything, monsters' attack bonuses are too high.

If you have to resort to making offensive comments instead of making logical arguments, you deserve to be ignored.

Avric_Tholomyes wrote:

Max range, sure, but that's with disadvantage, and it's the dragon who controls how high up he flies.

But getting in this deep a discussion about a monster whose stats are in development, for whom we've seen more current ideas of what they will look like (It was a black dragon, but I assume most things will carry over) when they finish up with Legendary creature rules, is probably moot. The point is, the mobility of a dragon in open sky is one of its' greatest advantages defensively. As such, it's unlikely any halfling villiage would be able to stand up to a dragon strike.

Any dragon that needs to carefully stay a good distance from a halfling village for fear of its life is not a real dragon in my book. Dragons are smart, sure. Dragons use tactics, sure. But a fully grown dragon that needs to hit and run against a few dozen oompa-loompas is a joke. Having a bit of mobility is not an impressive example of draconic might. A proper dragon should be able to land in the middle of town on market day, let the townsfolk pepper it with pebbles for a while, and then thank them for scratching its itchy back before flying off.

 

 

 

WhiteHarness wrote:

 

Shasarak wrote:

Cause really I am looking at the Balor with his three mighty +8 attacks, the Pit Fiend with his two +10s and a +8 and the Red Dragon with his +7 and two +6s and wondering how these even made it into the play test when their very best attack only has a 50% chance of hitting a Fighter wearing a normal non-magical Plate Mail and Shield.

Now if he uses the Defensive ability and has a +1 magical armour and shield then all of a sudden the Dragon needs a 16 or better to hit with his bite.

My suggestion: At the very least monsters need to be adding a proficiency bonus to their attacks.

 

Wait, you think hitting a guy in the best non-magical armour in the game "only" half the time is bad?

If anything, I'd like to see armour represented as being more effective, not less. I want to be made to feel as though it's actually worth the effort to save up for, purchase, and run around in heavy armour for once.

If anything, monsters' attack bonuses are too high.

The three toughest monsters in the game can not hit someone in normal non magical platemail half the time.

That is a travesty - they either need at least another +5 to hit added on top of that, maybe more - or armour needs to be massively nerfed.

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Shasarak wrote:

 

WhiteHarness wrote:

 

Shasarak wrote:

Cause really I am looking at the Balor with his three mighty +8 attacks, the Pit Fiend with his two +10s and a +8 and the Red Dragon with his +7 and two +6s and wondering how these even made it into the play test when their very best attack only has a 50% chance of hitting a Fighter wearing a normal non-magical Plate Mail and Shield.

Now if he uses the Defensive ability and has a +1 magical armour and shield then all of a sudden the Dragon needs a 16 or better to hit with his bite.

My suggestion: At the very least monsters need to be adding a proficiency bonus to their attacks.

 

Wait, you think hitting a guy in the best non-magical armour in the game "only" half the time is bad?

If anything, I'd like to see armour represented as being more effective, not less. I want to be made to feel as though it's actually worth the effort to save up for, purchase, and run around in heavy armour for once.

If anything, monsters' attack bonuses are too high.

 

The three toughest monsters in the game can not hit someone in normal non magical platemail half the time.

That is a travesty - they either need at least another +5 to hit added on top of that, maybe more - or armour needs to be massively nerfed.

I agree with you. Monsters still have the original bounded-accuracy approach, while PC moved to a wider (even if still limited) range of AC/Hit. Unfortunately the main focus of the playtest so far has been on the PC side and monster were never in the spotlight, so their math is off-place at the moment. I guess it will be worked on and I´m not that worried about this issue. As long as monsters will not share rules with PCs they could be worked on separately (this is what happened to 4e with the MM3 and Monster vault, that were a clear improvement compared to previous monsters).

 

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/23.jpg)

Yeah, I'm sort of having a problem with how he's statted too. Even if it's just an aspect, Asmodeus shouldn't worry about what a level 1 fighter does with a longsword. The unfortunate part is that this can all be solved with a damage reduction rule. Ie, a DR of 15 would pretty much patch this whole thing up. Asmodeus wouldn't have anything to worry about from some watchman with a sword, no matter how hard the bloke wacked him with it. It would also make him entirely immune to an army unless there were some heroes in there.

Although, it isn't nearly as bad as you say.

First, anyone who sees Asmodeus is going to immediately make a save against Authority of Nessus. A failed save means they will do minimal damage on strength based attacks. I'm guessing that's assuming they roll a 1 on damage die (can't find the rules for that...), so most fighters will probably at most be doing 1-6 points of damage depending on their strength. In addition to that, they'll be doing only half damage, so really the damage is going to be between 1-3. That's IF they hit, since they'll had disadvantage on all attack rolls against Asmodeus. On an average roll, most of these fighters simply won't hit. On an average roll of 10, your fighter is just not going to hit. They'd have a BA of 1+1-5, for a maximum of +6. His AC is 17. And that's a generous strength bonus. It should be closer to +3 or +4 at the most. And then you're talking about a fairly extroadinary human in terms of strength. Remember, mortal max for humanoids is 20.

So on an average roll per fighter, you're not going to get a roll above 14 or 15. And this is a Fighter--a very lucky and very competent fighter. The actual average human warrior--let alone the typical commoner cannon fodder that typically makes up an army, has an attack bonus of +2 and a strength of 12 (+1). A commoner has a total of +1 to hit and no stat bonuses. So in this regard, their attacks on average won't go above 11 or 12.

Of course, that doesn't get into the whole probability of rolling criticals or just high rolls, but at the same time, once you hit more than a dozen or so guys, you should really not be rolling for individual guys, since all you're doing is gaming the system and D&D is abstract, in its defense. And really, that's not how wars were fought. Archers didn't target specific people when they were fighting someone. They'd really just point at the area and they'd all sort of fire. It's more like an area affect than it is an actual attack of say, 50 people against one dude. I don't know exactly what you'd make the DC for that, personally I'd make it a moderte DC of 14 or 15 Reflex for half damage. Which, with a bonus of +5 from his Dex, he'll on average make. And since only a few arrows will cover his area, the actual damage is reasonable at 4d6. That on average, will be 14 points of damage. Since Asmodeus will probably make his save, that's 7 points of damage and since he's got damage resistance, it'll be only 3 points of damage.

In actual melee, Asmodeus can at most, be attacked by 8 people. I would suspect that flanking grants advantage, so even if they all flank him, it's just cancelling out the disadvantage his very presence imposes upon them. I'll ignore criticals for the sake of the headache, but out of those eight, only two of them are likely to hit Asmodeus. Let's say they have a strength of 18, to be nice. Well, if they're affected by Asmodeus's aura, they're going to deal a maximum of 4 damage with their weapons. And since he has damage resistance, that'd be only 2 points of damage. If they don't, well, assuming a longsword, they'd on average do 8 points of damage, or for 4 for Asmodeus. And he'll kill two guys every six seconds. More possibly if I'm reading his multi-attack correctly, it says he gets two attacks and he can use superior cone of cold, superior flame strike, infernal domination, or summon devil.

And this is, by my guess, an aspect of Asmodeus, not the actual devil, who'd be a Greater Deity. 

Or Asmodeus can just summon a Pit Fiend, who can use its symbol of pain ability to paralyze everyone within visual range (the entire army) and sip his wine as your entire army stands helpless and takes 7 points of damage every round for 1 minute. Of course, since they're all first level fighters, you can expect that they'll all be unconscious in 2 rounds and dead in 3. Assuming probabilities, the 250 that do make their save aren't going to do enough damage to the Pit Fiend or to Asmodeus before the Pit Fiend's ability recharges and it does it again. Or until Asmodeus's devil summoning ability recharges and he summons another Pit Fiend. And in the meantime, the Pit Fiend can rain down fireballs while Asmodeus uses walls of fire, flame strike, and cone of cold to wipe out dozens of men a second. Or just dominate the commanders and sow confusion through their ranks as he forces the commanders to give poor orders or sound a retreat and then a charge or a charge and a retreat.

I will break you.

WhiteHarness wrote:

I want to be made to feel as though it's actually worth the effort to save up for, purchase, and run around in heavy armour for once.

Unless you have to make an "ale and whores" save after every adventure I'm not sure where the effort is.

"Sorry Ugnar, you blew all that gold you were saving.  You wake up  in an alley.  Looks like it remains loincloth and sandals for you."

You either spend it or you don't.

no, it means that an armored hero is actually capable of being heroic.

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

I am just assuming that monsters is going to b one of the things that get the "private playtest" treatment where they "do the save action over and over again to make th enumbers work out right." I'm expcting the monsters to have a decnt amount of altered numbers in the final vs the playtest.

Dale McCoy

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LordVonDerp wrote:
no, it means that an armored hero is actually capable of being heroic.

It is currently impossible for a PC to be heroic.  A hero is only as strong as his enemy and at the moment that is severly lacking.

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It is?  Weird.  I suppose I should tell my players that.

When the Vampire in service to Androphenis attacked them on the road to Balic, and the fighter, monk, and ranger found themselves only able to do nickle and dime damage as the vampire's allies attacked them, it wasn't heroic when the paladin stood as the only line of assault as the monk, then ranger, then fighter dropped.

And it wasn't heroic when the lich king teleported into their midst, dropped cloudkill, and nearly TPK'd the party if it weren't for the gladiator using his action surge and rolling like a boss for a round that did nearly 70 points of damage. 

The monsters need work, but not as much as people are making out. What is with the need to put everything in the most hyperbolic terms possible?  It's not, "hey, I don't like this mechanic", it's "DOOOOOOOM!!!!!".  It's not "this game went in a direction I didn't like", it's "spitting in the face of all true fans".  I don't know if your rhetoric teacher ever told you guys, but the endless hyperbole doesn't make you sound edgy or compelling, just sort of sweaty and desperate.  

Didn't Mearls say that in theory, you could just throw in old monsters into the game and run with those? I wonder which edition's math would be best. Perhaps that's something to playtest as well, to compare. Or maybe just adjust values up or down to taste, like they did in the podcast where they had an armored beholder. (awesome). It's easier to beef up AC with armor than take it away if your group is too weak.

 
I'm fine with a young dragon having a 15 AC, they should be dangerous but not impossible to kill with mundane / normal means. It really shocks me to think any of you would be stalwarth in real life enough to try and fire sling stones against a dragon swooping down on you and burning down your village. Ludicrous, even. Halflings in any fantasy I've read are not the most...martial of races. Try standing to fight a dragon while your family's lives are at stake, instead of running for cover. So many bad meta-gamey comments, it's hard to know where to start.

-Master List of problems with GWF (currently 25)

 

-Enworld poll of GWF "believability" : 268 polled : 45% not believable, 39% believable, rest don't care.

 

A prima facie self-admission of  trolling on Wotc forums, yet there is no banishment for trolls, ever, they are apparently welcome here :

 

"And as I've said - I'm on these forums to remind myself regularly why I don't play D&D anymore." -Blacksheepcannibal

 

 

JonWake wrote:

It is?  Weird.  I suppose I should tell my players that.

When the Vampire in service to Androphenis attacked them on the road to Balic, and the fighter, monk, and ranger found themselves only able to do nickle and dime damage as the vampire's allies attacked them, it wasn't heroic when the paladin stood as the only line of assault as the monk, then ranger, then fighter dropped.

And it wasn't heroic when the lich king teleported into their midst, dropped cloudkill, and nearly TPK'd the party if it weren't for the gladiator using his action surge and rolling like a boss for a round that did nearly 70 points of damage. 

The monsters need work, but not as much as people are making out. What is with the need to put everything in the most hyperbolic terms possible?  It's not, "hey, I don't like this mechanic", it's "DOOOOOOOM!!!!!".  It's not "this game went in a direction I didn't like", it's "spitting in the face of all true fans".  I don't know if your rhetoric teacher ever told you guys, but the endless hyperbole doesn't make you sound edgy or compelling, just sort of sweaty and desperate.  

And imagine how heroic they would have been if they had real DOOOOOOOM monsters to fight.  

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