Humans; set it and forget it.

I love the back to basics feel of 5e, and I started with 4. I love how clean and simple the rules are, and how each decision in character creation seems simpler but more meaningful. 

I hate 5e humans. I do t see the benefit to using them really. At its worst when a party of humans is created the plus ones are a complete wash making no one feel special. A static plus to all scores is so passive that you forget it's there, so when the elf says they are going to use that cool trick of the elves, and the dwarf is dwarfing all the parties bags and the lucky halfling is rolling advantage all day, the human just is. 

A static bonus happens once at character creation and that's it. Set it and forget it. It's boring. 

Can someone please provide a second opinion?

In the Nentir Vale, all injured creatures are required to wear a name tag!

I concur. 

It's all in the campaign.  Humans as the majority,  or minority,  can make for interesting events.

Take Dragonlance for instance,  a Human wandering into elven lands is asking to become a porcupine in some eras.  They'll often receive little to no aid in the lands of elves or dwarves,  and be treated prejudicially.  OTOH,  you'll never see anything but a Human Knight of Solamnia.  There literally are no other races in the organization.

Bonuses aren't all there is to D&D,  it's the campaign that really matters.  The elves and dwarves may have "Cool tricks" on paper,  but if the DM doesn't present the opportunity for their use,  those tricks are even more useless than the static bonuses.

Having the DM balance things never works, it is the job of the game developers to publish a solid and well balanced game including all the races.

Humans should have something that makes them special and the same type of ability scores modifiers as the other races, ie +1 to two different stats.  Since not all tables will use the optional feat rules, it should be something like once between short rests they get advantage on any one roll they want.

On the topic of how the other races deal with humans, the same can be said about any race in certain settings a dwarf walking into some elven woods would be treated far worse than any human.  FYI those worlds would mostly change now, it use to be that only humans could be paladins and certain races cavaliers, now anyone can be anything.  Kender wizards or high sorcorery, dwarven knights of solomnia, ets..

Remember this is a public forum where people express their opinions assume there is a “In my humble opinion” in front of every post especially mine.  

 

Things you should check out because they are cool, like bow-ties and fezzes.

https://app.roll20.net/home  Roll20 great free virtual table top so you can play with old friends who are far away.

http://donjon.bin.sh/  Donjon has random treasure, maps, pick pocket results, etc.. for every edition of D&D.

I prefer boring humans. Less to think about, and establishes other races as being in contrast to a human.

First of I don't think that Attribut Bonuses are the way to make Races distinquised. They make your charakter a little bit more effective, but other players will never see the actual difference.

That said, I'm happy that the Human is so simple. Humans are the perfect Race for new Players or Players who don't want to care about the Race. They are effective, independend of Class or Concept and you don't have to remember powers or choose additional feats/skills which confuse new players or players who simply don't care about that stuff.

Daganev wrote:
I prefer boring humans. Less to think about, and establishes other races as being in contrast to a human.
Agreed, on both counts. I kind of wish they had a different way of going about it, rather than saying that every human is as tough as a dwarf and nimble as an elf, but it's good that they are simple and passive.
The metagame is not the game.

Someone in this thread said. "a human just is." I like this. Not every species needs to be "special." Sometimes not having a gimmick at all is just as awesome, or more awesome, than having a gimmick.

Oh all the money that e'er I spent,I spent it in good company And all the harm that e'er I've done, Alas, it was to none but me, And all I've done for want of wit, To memory now I can't recall, So fill to me the parting glass. Good night and joy be with you all

It's been pointed out before that having humans on a distinctly different format from the rest presents us with issues when we start to add more advanced options like bloodlines or halfbreeds. The subrace format gives us a useful way to integrate those kinds of mixes without a lot of fuss, and the humans (supposedly) make the most common mixer, yet the format doesn't allow it to mix very well.

I really just think they should bite the bullet and make human subraces same as everyone else, or at the very least give the humans options in the same way and format it the same as the other races.

All of the races are terrible.

They cannot seem to figure out how to make them interesting and balanced with abilities. I would just turn them into pure fluff and do away with racial abilities at this point. 

If I were to make a character from a min/max perspective I would always go Human. Three 16s and three 10s make them the best starting stats character for any class. 

Human's being boring is lazy design.

I've come to dislike stat boosts myself.   The fluff is the important part for me and it will always vary some world to world.  To me the pleasure of roleplaying one of the races should be it's culture and world view and not because it can teleport.   When people choose a race because of some mechanical benefit, you are separating from the world right from the beginning.

Humans really are awful... possibly my least favorite thing about Next. It's the one thing my group can agree on with this version of D&D.

 

I would give them a feat/ability bonus, and a +1 to alkl saves or soemthing to better fit with the past 2 editions (you know, where humans didn't suck).

I love D&D more than I could ever love a human child.

I like the idea of including regional/ethnic variations to represent human variation and treat them like any other race. Give them +1 to any stat, fairly broad racial trait(s), and then each subrace can have a +1 to a predefined stat and additional, more flavorful racial trait. Yeah, OK, make one human subrace fairly generic to support players/campaigns that prefer that style. 

Where there is life there is hope... But for the truly faithful there is always hope, and it is not determined by either death or life." -- Tleilaxu Master Scytale.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/21.jpg)

You need at least one race to be boring, for boring people.  Humans are a prime canidate for that.
Human Fighter (warrior), has basicly nothing mechanicily to think about, and can just roll dice.

And balance wise, they are rather middle of the road.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I would give humans their class features one level sooner while still conserving their normal levels to reflect the human ability to learn and adapt faster.

So a second level human fighter would access his martial path, but every class features would still be based on a 2nd level fighter.

Note that this wouldn't impact spellcasting of caster classes as it's the class level that determines how many spell you can cast..

 

I think that humans would be otherwise better served with specific 1st-level racial feats, but feats being optional…

mellored wrote:

You need at least one race to be boring, for boring people.  Humans are a prime canidate for that.
Human Fighter (warrior), has basicly nothing mechanicily to think about, and can just roll dice.

And balance wise, they are rather middle of the road.

Couldn't possibly disagree with anything more than everything you said here.

AH_schulerta wrote:

 

mellored wrote:

You need at least one race to be boring, for boring people.  Humans are a prime canidate for that.
Human Fighter (warrior), has basicly nothing mechanicily to think about, and can just roll dice.

And balance wise, they are rather middle of the road.

 

Couldn't possibly disagree with anything more than everything you said here.

Which part?

That boring people shouldn't have a boring race (and class)?

Or that humans are not balanced?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Osgood wrote:

Humans really are awful... possibly my least favorite thing about Next. It's the one thing my group can agree on with this version of D&D.

 

I would give them a feat/ability bonus, and a +1 to alkl saves or soemthing to better fit with the past 2 editions (you know, where humans didn't suck).

AH_schulerta wrote:

All of the races are terrible.

They cannot seem to figure out how to make them interesting and balanced with abilities. I would just turn them into pure fluff and do away with racial abilities at this point. 

If I were to make a character from a min/max perspective I would always go Human. Three 16s and three 10s make them the best starting stats character for any class. 

Human's being boring is lazy design.



I love it. Humans are overpowered, and suck.  Seems they struck the right balance :D
(I never played a human before 4e)

Just FYI.  Other races can start with 16,16,16,8,8,8
vs 16,16,16,10,10,10

So humans get +2 to their dump stats.

Though going 14,14,14,14,14,14 is actually a prime human array.  And where they get the most boost.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

mellored wrote:

You need at least one race to be boring, for boring people.  Humans are a prime canidate for that.
Human Fighter (warrior), has basicly nothing mechanicily to think about, and can just roll dice.

And balance wise, they are rather middle of the road.

 

Man, someone wanting to play a particular archetype for role-playing purposes is just completely alien to you, isn't it?  In your mind, there is no way someone would do such a thing unless they are somehow broken people (boring)?

 

People who think an RPG is all about char op and mechanical choices should stick to computer games where they don't have to worry about the pesky "actually role-playing the character" bit getting in the way.

rajzwaibel wrote:
Man, someone wanting to play a particular archetype for role-playing purposes is just completely alien to you, isn't it?  In your mind, there is no way someone would do such a thing unless they are somehow broken people (boring)?

 

People who think an RPG is all about char op and mechanical choices should stick to computer games where they don't have to worry about the pesky "actually role-playing the character" bit getting in the way.

Huh?

If you want to play a human for RP purposes, then go ahead....  nothing is stopping you.

Or do you expect humans to have be immune to sleep, breath fire, or something?
Do you need a mechanical reason ro RP a human?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

mellored wrote:

Just FYI.  Other races can start with 16,16,16,8,8,8
vs 16,16,16,10,10,10

So humans get +2 to their dump stats.

Though going 14,14,14,14,14,14 is actually a prime human array.  And where they get the most boost.

Well, this is something to look out. Amazing array (the first one, specially). Can you imagine a Wizard with Int 16, Dex 16 and Con 16? Or a paladin with Str/Cha/Con 16? It's a way to make it good on 2 points of the class, plus survivability.

Plus, the +1 on all is a simple and funcional way to say: this race can be any class. It's perfect redesign from 2nd edition.

I only die if I roll 1 -- lasts words of a 15th level fighter on a 3.5 table that I DMed.

baumi wrote:

First of I don't think that Attribut Bonuses are the way to make Races distinquised. They make your charakter a little bit more effective, but other players will never see the actual difference.

That said, I'm happy that the Human is so simple. Humans are the perfect Race for new Players or Players who don't want to care about the Race. They are effective, independend of Class or Concept and you don't have to remember powers or choose additional feats/skills which confuse new players or players who simply don't care about that stuff.

 

Concur with the simplicity part, and your observation about humans as a simple place for newbies to start.  I think what distinguishes the Race, though, is the campaign flavor, and the creativeness of the player. Also think players like stat bonuses, especially 6 of them at CharGen.

baumi wrote:

First of I don't think that Attribut Bonuses are the way to make Races distinquised. They make your charakter a little bit more effective, but other players will never see the actual difference.

That said, I'm happy that the Human is so simple. Humans are the perfect Race for new Players or Players who don't want to care about the Race. They are effective, independend of Class or Concept and you don't have to remember powers or choose additional feats/skills which confuse new players or players who simply don't care about that stuff.

 

Concur with the simplicity part, and your observation about humans as a simple place for newbies to start.  I think what distinguishes the Race, though, is the campaign flavor, and the creativeness of the player. Also think players like stat bonuses, especially 6 of them at CharGen.

This has been discussed numerous time.  Enough people dislike humans that they should be changed.

Max 20 eliminates the benefit of bonuses to ability  scores so in the end, humans are actually the worst race with no benefit.

My idea:

Humans:

Increased max of 22 in one ability score (chosen at character creation)

1 bonus feat

1 bonus language

 

1/2 human: pick one from above plus one from other parent race.

Other 1/2 races gain 1 set of abilities from their parent. (Races would need to group abilities for this)

 

 

kezzek wrote:
Max 20 eliminates the benefit of bonuses to ability  scores so in the end, humans are actually the worst race with no benefit.

,,,

1 bonus feat

You realise that's the same thing right?

Stat boost = feat.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

mellored wrote:
Human Fighter (warrior), has basically nothing mechanically to think about, and can just roll dice.
I don't know where this idea came from that basic attacks mean nothing to think about. You still have to decide where to move and what to attack, with which weapon, so even that simplified game is already more complicated than chess.
The metagame is not the game.

I prefer race abilities and bonuses to be passive, myself. I feel like active abilities belong in Classes/Subclasses/Specialties. I think it makes more sense that way, to me.

 

I do think Humans can be more interesting, however.

Role Play Craft : Crafting Ideas, Modules, and Options for your Role Playing Game.

Its not just Humans that are the problem. Aside from Fleet of Foot, Lucky, Gnome Cunning and Darkvision, the rest of the racial abilities are iffy at best.

Weapon Proficiencies in a game where getting All Martial Weapon Proficiencies isn't hard, are a waste of a racial ability.

Trance and Free Spirit are situational at best. The High Elf is underpowered, period.

Half-Elf almost has the Human trumped when it comes to boring, and is severely underpowered.

 

That's actually a perfect reason to keep it this way. If you think long-term, the human is the best, if you want the flavor + other things, then other things are good too.

 
I like that they removed continual light, it keeps dwarf darkvision relevant. I love darkvision, and always thought it was sad that a game based on dungeoneering had so seldom use for giving dwarves a benefit to that. 
 
My preferred solution is to give humans a single stat bump / feat at level 1. Or maybe that they can't swap for a feat, because then seriously everyone would just play a human. Or not. Can you imagine PCs agonizing between an 18 strength or a killer feat? I love it...hahaha. But that kind of removes the "simplicity factor", for games that allow feats, it gives humans a good choice. Then again, you can chose to roll your stats, THEN decide if you want the boost or the feat. That, to me, is the perfect solution.
 
14s all across is IMO too good for the average human. I don't think, looking around, that I'd qualify the average person as being above average in every single way. Kind of beggars the mind to even contemplate the contradiction. But that's more a problem with the highly contrived point buy system that leads you to trap options like 14s being boosted to two 20s, a 16, and 3 14s by level 20 being possible. Perhaps they should really think about alternate dice rolling systems like 2d6 + 4, and say ability bumps past 1st level are not allowed at all. That's easy enough to house rule though, once you get tired of seeing everyone with a 20 main stat at level 4 or 8. It's just not necessary thanks to BA

Saelorn wrote:

 

mellored wrote:
Human Fighter (warrior), has basically nothing mechanically to think about, and can just roll dice.

I don't know where this idea came from that basic attacks mean nothing to think about. You still have to decide where to move and what to attack, with which weapon, so even that simplified game is already more complicated than chess.

 

I agree.  This implication that gamers back during the AD&D or B/X days were simpletons because their fighters never had to think or strategize because they didn't have a bunch of special maneuvers is bullocks at best.

Paraxis wrote:

Humans should have something that makes them special and the same type of ability scores modifiers as the other races, ie +1 to two different stats.  Since not all tables will use the optional feat rules, it should be something like once between short rests they get advantage on any one roll they want.

I like these as a good start for Humans:

Bonus Stats: Gain +1 bonus to any 2 stats or +2 to any one stat.

Bonus Feat: You gain one bonus feat at 1st level.

Heroic Effort: Between short rests, you get advantage on any one roll.

rajzwaibel wrote:

 

Saelorn wrote:

 

mellored wrote:
Human Fighter (warrior), has basically nothing mechanically to think about, and can just roll dice.

I don't know where this idea came from that basic attacks mean nothing to think about. You still have to decide where to move and what to attack, with which weapon, so even that simplified game is already more complicated than chess.

 

I agree.  This implication that gamers back during the AD&D or B/X days were simpletons because their fighters never had to think or strategize because they didn't have a bunch of special maneuvers is bullocks at best.

I said "mechanically".

They can think about whatever else they want in-game.  But their character sheet is a note card.

Some people like that.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Did you seriously just try to argue that the decision to move to the closest enemy and attack is more complicated then chess? And yes I have played at tables where that was the preferred method of playing for some players. That same player refused to play more complicated modern games.

mellored wrote:
I said "mechanically".

They can think about whatever else they want in-game.  But their character sheet is a note card.

I guess it depends what you mean by "mechanics"; Human Warrior has no unique mechanics, but still has all of the basic gameplay mechanics to deal with - attack, movement, reaction - not to mention feats.

The way I see it, the basic gameplay mechanics are complex enough that you don't really need to add anything on top of it. I find that extra mechanics just get in the way of playing the character.

The metagame is not the game.

Saelorn wrote:

 

mellored wrote:
I said "mechanically".

They can think about whatever else they want in-game.  But their character sheet is a note card.

I guess it depends what you mean by "mechanics"; Human Warrior has no unique mechanics, but still has all of the basic gameplay mechanics to deal with - attack, movement, reaction - not to mention feats.

The way I see it, the basic gameplay mechanics are complex enough that you don't really need to add anything on top of it. I find that extra mechanics just get in the way of playing the character.

Right..

Which is why it's good to have a mechanicly forgetable race.  For those who simply want to focus on playing the character.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

If you really want to know how to distinguish a race, make the focus about building the cultures of their relative kingdoms within your setting.

Mechanically, the races are fine, and I don't think anyone here really believes that a few mechanical differences are sufficient for distinguishing a whole species from a different one.

Oh all the money that e'er I spent,I spent it in good company And all the harm that e'er I've done, Alas, it was to none but me, And all I've done for want of wit, To memory now I can't recall, So fill to me the parting glass. Good night and joy be with you all

 

racial trait that really fits us. - See more at: http://community.wizards.com/content/blog/810536#sthash.5TArHQuW.dpuf

 

Racial attribute bonuses, while nice, are easily forgotten racial traits.  They quickly blend into the background, and I find them decidedly unsatisfying.  For most races, who get more than just racial bonuses to define them, this is less intrusive.  However, humans get the shaft on being interesting while simultaneously getting OP attribute bonuses.

To eliminate the over-powered nature of human racial attribute bonuses, and to simultaneously solve the blandness problem, I propose that humans' racial ability score adjustments be altered to simply +2 to one attrinute, and they get the following racial trait to compensate for the lost attribute bonuses.

Empty Inside (Human Racial Trait)
Humans, as a race, are empty inside, as if their souls are incomplete.  Every human seeks something to fill the inescapable void within them.  For some, this is family and friends, for others it's power, wealth, prestige, religion, or a littany of vices a mile long.  This emptiness drives humanity, focuses them, and turns their empty souls into fortresses of resolve.  Once per encounter, Humans have the ability to cancel a disadvantage they face, or the advantage of an opponent attacking them.

Now that's a human racial trait that really fits us. - See more at: http://community.wizards.com/content/blog/810536#sthash.5TArHQuW.dpuf

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I also hate the way the DDN human race is statted up.  But, I do think that we can have our cake and eat it too on this.  It would be very simple for them to give us an option to replace four of the six +1 stat bumps with two to four abilities from a list that is meant to show off the flexibility of humans (which is basically the "thing" that they've opted to give humans).

I proposed the following ability in my blog, and I think it would make a fine addition to that list we should get:

MechaPilot wrote:

Empty Inside (Human Racial Trait)

Humans, as a race, are empty inside, as if their souls are incomplete.  Every human seeks something to fill the inescapable void within them.  For some, this is family and friends, for others it's power, wealth, prestige, religion, or a littany of vices a mile long.  This emptiness drives humanity, focuses them, and turns their empty souls into fortresses of resolve.  Once per encounter, Humans have the ability to cancel a disadvantage they face, or the advantage of an opponent attacking them.

Now that's a human racial trait that really fits us.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Grr.  Stupid new forums.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I dislike the uniform +1 to all stats for humans simply because I see no good reason why the average human should be more charismatic than the average elf, or more cunning than the average dwarf or halfling. In short, a +1 to all stats is similar to a -1 to all other stats for other races, except for their preferred ones, to get them to be on-par with humans.

I don't think +1 to all stats is weak at all, I think in a game where you're supposed to use every stat and have skill checks, ability checks, and all sorts of things depend on the DM asking you for checks left and right, will reward having 3 16s and 3 10s more than 6 14s. If a human can get +2 to all abilities, that PC could probably find ways to boost lots of their stats to crazy high levels. Like a human fighter, for example, with 20 str, 20 dex, 16 con, and 14 14 14, would make quite a formidable for. Or even 20 str, 16 16 16, 14 14. Or all 16s. Very powerful for extreme multiclassing, I bet you there will be builds out there that will be like fighter 6 / barb/rng/rogue 4 / cleric 5 / wizard 5 than could be a one person party.

Open your minds a bit, +1 is SUPER good for multiclassing, and humans, rather than having empty souls, have adaptible ones. It's the defining trait of our species, we either adapt, or we wither away and die.

 

That said, I do prefer +2 or 2 +1s or a feat, like everybody else gets at level 4. It's only a 3 level head start for a feat if you happen to roll really good stats and have a trick build you can to try out at level 1.