No warlock, sorcerer, warlord or Gish CLASS in Next.

From the mikemearls twitter thread:
@redcometcasval With the bard coming next packet, are we getting any other classes? We are getting five new races(maybe kender are a subrace). @mikemearls That'll be it for classes

Now, it's possible this just means we won't see any more base classes in the playtest but they might make the final release. But when we look at the likely candidates in this thread title, they specifically said the Gish ("Eldritch knight") class got cut during alpha testing, and they've strongly hinted that the sorcerer will be a Mage subclass and the warlord a fighter subclass. No warlock, though... Man, that one bites. That was our last real chance for a core spellcaster that didn't rely on traditional spells. (That is, a spellcaster I can play to zap things without wading through the fifty page Spells chapter at the end of the PHB.) I'm guessing it's too late in the process to change their minds on this one, but I for one am extremely disappointed.

EDIT: Thanks to mellored for mentioning it, I just saw Mearls' tweet that we should get a preview of the warlock before launch. That still could mean as a subclass, but hey, fingers crossed... 
Pretty sure Mearls was talking about the Packet.  Not the game.
I think Fitz is right.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
Subclasses (different builds for the same class) will be the next shizz. 

Cause people asked for classes.  
What fizz said.

He was talking about the next packet.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The next packet is the final public packet, and as I mentioned in the OP, the warlock is the only class I mentioned that HASN'T either explicitly been ditched or floated as a subclass.

Now, yes, they could certainly release a warlock class without publicly playtesting it in over a year, which I'd be fine with. But it doesn't seem likely to me. If they feel like it's worth playtesting five iterations  of a relatively straightforward class like the monk, why would a
a class with totally unique spellcasting mechanics be okay to toss in right before press? 
As the original tweeter, I am only taking this to mean in the next packet, not the game in and of itself.  They have already mentioned we will see the Warlock in previews later, though it was a little implied it might be a Mage tradition, which I am fine with.  The Sorcerer SHOULD be a Mage tradition, and is likely the reason behind the renaming of the Wizard to the Mage in the first place.  The Warlord has been stated to be a Fighter subclass, and more recently an inspiration Bard class.  I did ask if the Inspiring Bard will be magical or non-magical, no word back on that.  Honestly, I would love to see different bard subclasses that are non-magical or differently magical.  For example, the Ardent psionic class could be easily done as a Psionic bard.  You could have a Divine bard that is some sort of Zealot.  The Inspiring Bard could easily be a non-magical/Martial variant, especially given that this type of bard actually existed in the real world (I like to think of Chaucer from A Knight's Tale as being an Inspiring Bard).  The assassin bard from Dark Sun could also be this sort of thing.
CORE MORE, NOT CORE BORE!
They have already mentioned we will see the Warlock in previews later, though it was a little implied it might be a Mage tradition, which I am fine with.

Dear gods, I hope not.   I will be so completely and utterly pissed if that's true.

From the packet (emphasis mine):

The arcane tradition of wizardry is ancient, stretching back to the earliest mortal discoveries of magic. It is firmly established in the worlds of D&D, with academic institutions dedicated to its study. Although other traditions exist—including sorcery and witchcraft—most mages study wizardry.


So, yeah, good chance the warlock has been folded over into Wizard as well.

Can't say I'm a fan of this - Sorcerer and Warlock feel sufficently different to be distinct classes, but I'd rather they'd be in the game in some form than not at all. 
They have already mentioned we will see the Warlock in previews later, though it was a little implied it might be a Mage tradition, which I am fine with.

Dear gods, I hope not.   I will be so completely and utterly pissed if that's true.




While the Warlock definitely has more identity than the Sorcerer(I would be flabberghasted if it was NOT a tradition for the Mage), I could see the Tradition mechanic being used to make the Warlock. Honestly, I could see them going either way on that.  Because the Warlock has multiple different themes, such as the Infernal Warlock or the Fey Warlock, I am leaning toward it being a class, and the subclasses being the way to do the Infernal or Fey themes. 
CORE MORE, NOT CORE BORE!
I think Fitz is right.


I hope fitz is right.
IMHO the warlock would not work at all as a mage subclass. The warlock has always had a completely separate magic mechanic from wizards; having it share the same spell list would pretty much ruin the whole point.

I guess I'll ask Mike specifically on twitter if the warlock is still planned as a class for the release, but with the volume of tweets he gets and limits on what he can disclose I'm not going to be offended if I don't get a quick answer.
Merls mentioned that L&L would preview the warlock.

Sorcerer is mentioned as a mage type.

Merls said gish didn't pass the test. So that's the only one that people should worry about.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Do you have a source for the warlock l&l bit, mello? I listened to that r@d podcast but don't remember that detail.
IMHO the warlock would not work at all as a mage subclass. The warlock has always had a completely separate magic mechanic from wizards; having it share the same spell list would pretty much ruin the whole point.



My theory's that "Mage" is shorthand for the "Magic-User" class you saw in earlier editions, i.e. they design one class' mechanics to handle arcane spells, and then fluff derivations of the "arcane caster" type as subclasses. 

I'd doubt the sub-Sorc and sub-Lock would use the same spell list and total casting mechanics of the sub-Wizard - there'd obviously be some overlap, because why else subclass it - but I'm betting you'll see sub-Locks ending up with mostly ritual casting and Evocations, and sub-Sorcs with limited spells and intense spell-source-based magical class features, all set up against the basic framework the Mage class would provide.

That said, I think it's a terrible and pretty flavor-less way to present it, but it's a way that theoretically could not be terrible, at least.
From the mikemearls twitter thread:

@redcometcasval With the bard coming next packet, are we getting any other classes? We are getting five new races(maybe kender are a subrace).
@mikemearls That'll be it for classes

Now, it's possible this just means we won't see any more base classes in the playtest but they might make the final release. But when we look at the likely candidates in this thread title, they specifically said the Gish ("Eldritch knight") class got cut during alpha testing, and they've strongly hinted that the sorcerer will be a Mage subclass and the warlord a fighter subclass.

No warlock, though... Man, that one bites. That was our last real chance for a core spellcaster that didn't rely on traditional spells. (That is, a spellcaster I can play to zap things without wading through the fifty page Spells chapter at the end of the PHB.)

I'm guessing it's too late in the process to change their minds on this one, but I for one am extremely disappointed.

That's a compelling reason to make a mage subclass like that, even if Vancian magic is used for the mage and any other subclasses.  I hope it works out.
IMHO the warlock would not work at all as a mage subclass. The warlock has always had a completely separate magic mechanic from wizards; having it share the same spell list would pretty much ruin the whole point.



My theory's that "Mage" is shorthand for the "Magic-User" class you saw in earlier editions, i.e. they design one class' mechanics to handle arcane spells, and then fluff derivations of the "arcane caster" type as subclasses. 

I'd doubt the sub-Sorc and sub-Lock would use the same spell list and total casting mechanics of the sub-Wizard - there'd obviously be some overlap, because why else subclass it - but I'm betting you'll see sub-Locks ending up with mostly ritual casting and Evocations, and sub-Sorcs with limited spells and intense spell-source-based magical class features, all set up against the basic framework the Mage class would provide.

That said, I think it's a terrible and pretty flavor-less way to present it, but it's a way that theoretically could not be terrible, at least.

The problem with doing things this way is that warlocks aren't just "arcane casters."   They exist in an odd state that floats between divine and "arcane" magic; assuming that arcane isn't being used as a catch-all term for magic users that aren't explicitly cleric-based or druid-based.    

Warlocks get their magic from monsters in some way.  They channel the powers of devils, demons, elementals, living sorcerer-kings.   Maybe they made a pact.  Maybe its inherited.  Maybe they kill a dragon and eat its heart.     In Final Fantasy games, we'd call this the Blue Mage.   They have a very specific style of magic that is vastly different from bards/dancers, white mage (cleric), black mage (wizard), or elementalist (druid).   You are taking part of a monster inside yourself, using its powers, and becoming more like it.   

Wizards study their magic somehow.   Even sorcerers went to school to learn magic words of kinds.   Pact magic is something vastly and wildly different from the traditional wizard and sorcerer.   Its an innate wellspring of magic from monsters that you have access to within your body and soul.   There's no need of training and learning spellforms.   Its something you are given.  Or you take by force.   
@redcometcasval With the bard coming next packet, are we getting any other classes? We are getting five new races(maybe kender are a subrace).
@mikemearls That'll be it for classes
@Gweemaranl Do you mean it for the playtest classes or it for classes in general in the final 5e release?
@mikemearls classes for the game - really want to limit them, focus on subclasses to expand.
If they make warlock a subclass of mage instead of its own class, I'm not touching Next with a 10 ft. pole.
So the only Gish class is the Cleric????? 

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I say good luck to them getting sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks AND multiple casting systems AND school specialization all in one class.

You pretty much have to make the mage class an empty shell and put ALL the class features in subclass.

It would be basically rewriting the class anyway. Unless you want it broken.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Yeah, it seems like the Warlock and Sorcerer features would be a lot harder to fit into subclass elements of Mage than they would be as separate classes with their own subclasses – Pacts for Warlocks, Bloodlines/Origins for Sorcerers.  Frankly, I'd be fine with a class that represents BOTH Warlocks and Sorcerers (as pacts and bloodlines/origins have some significant overlap).  But they really don't fit as Mage Traditions.  A Wild Mage, sure, but not a Cosmic Sorcerer, or a Dragon Sorcerer, or a Vampiric Sorcerer, or a Fey Pact Warlock, or a Hexblade, or a Shadow Binder… these all are far too separate from the pure caster elements of the Mage to really work as subclasses.  Besides, the Mage Schools are their own subclasses.

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Barbarians are basically just fighters with rage, and yet they get to be their own class. There is a far greater distinction, mechanically and thematically, between a wizard and warlock than there is between a fighter and a barbarian. Yet, they're going to force every possible type of arcane caster into the mage box? That is just asinine.
I say good luck to them getting sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks AND multiple casting systems AND school specialization all in one class. You pretty much have to make the mage class an empty shell and put ALL the class features in subclass. It would be basically rewriting the class anyway. Unless you want it broken.



the 3.5 scorcerer was basicly only a alternative casting style.
So instead of the Mage/wizardry combo we have now you could see the Mage/scorcery combo.

The 4th editionscorcerer had more focus on his bloodline but why should having a bloodline only have effect on casters ?
So this part might be moved to a feat so all classes have access to it.

the base casting of the warlock might be put in Mage/witchcraft
And having a Pact like the 4th edition warlock did gets opend up to all classes trough feats.
the 3.5 scorcerer was basicly only a alternative casting style.



So what? The class has come a long way since then, and Pathfinder did a great job of showing how interesting the class can be with bloodlines. Just because the sorcerer was initially made to be a non-vancian wizard 13 years ago doesn't mean that's all it should be now.
Yeah, it seems like the Warlock and Sorcerer features would be a lot harder to fit into subclass elements of Mage than they would be as separate classes with their own subclasses


Yep.  And I plan to put that in the survey.  If pretty much everything is different from level 1, why try to shoehorn in the class into an umbrella class name?  it's like taking the current Fighter and Rogue and putting them under an umbrella "Non-magical Melee Fighter" class.  If they're so different, just make a separate class for it.

What if I want to make what in 3E would have been a Wizard/Sorcerer?  Can I make a Mage/Mage in Next?  That seems ... stupid ... to multiclass into the class you're already a member of.

I really do understand that some people love to reduce the number of top-level items in a list, but it doesn't always work too well.
the 3.5 scorcerer was basicly only a alternative casting style.



So what? The class has come a long way since then, and Pathfinder did a great job of showing how interesting the class can be with bloodlines. Just because the sorcerer was initially made to be a non-vancian wizard 13 years ago doesn't mean that's all it should be now.



just saying that people who want the 3.X scorcerer could be pleased by just having a alternative casting style
I don't know why mearls sets himself up with statements that are absolute like the one for classes. It is insane. Just when I started to drink the cool aid in reference to one of their main development criteria was to determine the fit and feel of a class then develop mechanics for it.
So the only Gish class is the Cleric?????

Yup. Epic fail, WotC.  It makes NO sense to keep the cleric, then state that an arcane equivalant didn't pass the muster. I've lost most of my respect of the design team at this point. I personally HATE the need for multi-classing, so having it be an intrinsic game mechanic (not just yet another optional module) is just one more turn-off for me.


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just saying that people who want the 3.X scorcerer could be pleased by just having a alternative casting style


The current Mage/Wizard/Whatever pretty much *is* the 3E Sorcerer.  Only instead of only knowing a certain number of spells, he prepares a certain number from his spellbook.  Like the 3E Sorcerer, the Next Wizard freely chooses from that list of spells to cast when he needs them, rather than devoting certain slots to certain spells.  And, like the 3E Sorcerer, He can increase the effects of spells by casting at a higher spell level, almost like the 3E Sorcerer used metamagic feats.

If anyone should be upset in this whole situation, it's not the 3E Sorcerer fans.  It's the 3E Wizard fans.

In other words, the Sorcerer *has* to focus on the sorcerous origin aspect of the class' theme.  The 3E Sorcerer is already represented in Next.  The 4E Sorcerer is not.  They should have refined the idea of the Sorcerer, rather than completely ditching it from the playtest.
I still think making the Warlock a subclass of "Mage" is TERRIBLE. It's a fundamentally totally different class. It needs to be on its own. Besides, Wizard is complicated enough already. Similarly, I really don't like making the Warlord part of the Fighter.

There's just no good reason to do this. It doesn't actually simplify the game. If anything, it makes thing more complicated. Do they think they're fooling us? "Look, fewer classes!" Uh, no. Not really. Not when it actually comes down to it. I realize some people want few classes for some reason I don't really understand, but this isn't going to appease them. Frankly I think wanting to limit everyone's options is selfish and shortsighted anyway. Besides, new classes sell books, because players want them. Eventually, WotC is going to add new classes, and a lot of them, like it or not.

Ulimately, if the DM wants to ban classes, what's stopping him? Regardless of how those classes are presented.

I'm willing to bet that they're going to make some big mistakes simply because they made designing these classes MUCH harder on themselves than it really needed to be. 
I say good luck to them getting sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks AND multiple casting systems AND school specialization all in one class. You pretty much have to make the mage class an empty shell and put ALL the class features in subclass. It would be basically rewriting the class anyway. Unless you want it broken.



the 3.5 scorcerer was basicly only a alternative casting style.
So instead of the Mage/wizardry combo we have now you could see the Mage/scorcery combo.

The 4th editionscorcerer had more focus on his bloodline but why should having a bloodline only have effect on casters ?
So this part might be moved to a feat so all classes have access to it.

the base casting of the warlock might be put in Mage/witchcraft
And having a Pact like the 4th edition warlock did gets opend up to all classes trough feats.



The 3.5 sorcerer has many parts of it that would make it harder to just port with any respect. The 3.5 sorc had more spells per day and fewer spells known. The DDN equivalent is more spells per day, fewer prepared spells, one level behind on when they recieved a spell level, inabilty to research spells, and no free magic feats.
 It would be a headache to work with multiclassing and harder to balance as the sorcerer has more spells.

A 4e sorcerer would be easy but it would be a reflavored wizard.

A warlock would be impossible unless the mage has no references of spells outside of subclass. They don't cast spells. Scribe scroll would not work. Arcance recovery would not work. Spell Mastery would not work. 

It is the same issue as 3rd edition. Unless you purposely write a class and every variant at the same time, the variant would need a new class or pages of conversion material.

Will the PHB be written with 30 mage subclasses? 
I doubt it. 

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

There's just no good reason to do this. It doesn't actually simplify the game. 



+1.


Will the PHB be written with 30 mage subclasses? 
I doubt it. 



well if they have 3 casting styles.
and a tradition for each school of magic and a gener al one would be 9

so that would be 3X9 = 27 combinations. 


Will the PHB be written with 30 mage subclasses? 
I doubt it. 



well if they have 3 casting styles.
and a tradition for each school of magic and a gener al one would be 9

so that would be 3X9 = 27 combinations. 



Plus 3 casting styles of sorcerers. 
And X amounts of warlocks 

Between exclusive spells, invocations, and subclasses, the mage will be over 50 pages.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!



Will the PHB be written with 30 mage subclasses? 
I doubt it. 



well if they have 3 casting styles.
and a tradition for each school of magic and a gener al one would be 9

so that would be 3X9 = 27 combinations. 



Plus 3 casting styles of sorcerers. 
And X amounts of warlocks 

Between exclusive spells, invocations, and subclasses, the mage will be over 50 pages.



you only need one casting style to re create the 3.X scorcerer.
@GloriousSpring Any chance of us seeing a Warlock in the final playtest packet? #warlockobsessed
@mikemearls I don't think so, but you can expect to see it previewed before release

@EzekielRaiden
 Fair, I suppose. Still bummed that my fav classes either got cut (Sorcerer) or get few interesting choices (Paladin).
@mikemearls paladin is definitely a known issue, sorcerer will be in final game

@redcometcasval
 sounds good. The bard is my favorite class. Excited for it and its warlord subclass. Is the subclass magic based or non-magical
@mikemearls bard uses magic, the fighter warlord does not use magic 



So yea...  the gish is the only one they said that didn't pan out.
Though we have bard and paladin, both can be rather gish-like.

And it seems like sub-classes are going to be even bigger.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

So bard will be the chassis for all arcane gish (sub)classes? Feels a bit off, since bard IMO is too heavily linked to performance, and not all arcane gish concepts will be dancing dervishes, etc. It could work if there was a way to trade in the "bardic performance" aspect for something else.

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@EzekielRaiden
 Fair, I suppose. Still bummed that my fav classes either got cut (Sorcerer) or get few interesting choices (Paladin).
@mikemearls paladin is definitely a known issue, sorcerer will be in final game


But will the Sorcerer be as class or as Mage subclass?

@GloriousSpring Any chance of us seeing a Warlock in the final playtest packet? #warlockobsessed
@mikemearls I don't think so, but you can expect to see it previewed before release



Glad it will be, even if only will see it in final game.
spell slot sorcerer
spell point sorcerer
recharge sorcerer
general spell slot wizard
general spell point wizard
general recharge wizard
9 schools of spell slot wizards
9 schools of spell point wizards
9 schools of recharge wizard
Non pact warlock
2-4 pact warlocks

Lot of subclasses

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

So bard will be the chassis for all arcane gish (sub)classes? Feels a bit off, since bard IMO is too heavily linked to performance, and not all arcane gish concepts will be dancing dervishes, etc. It could work if there was a way to trade in the "bardic performance" aspect for something else.



I think they are moving the gish options to multi class.
So there would be special subclasses for combinations for example spellblade could be a fignter subclass.
this would allouw for more combinations.

fighter/spellblade multi classes with a Mage/wizardry/Evoker.
fighter /spellblade dual classes with a Mage/scorcery/illusionist 

or the swordmage could be a mage subclass.
fighter/gladiator multi classed with a Mage/witchcraft/swordmage.

or get realy funky
a fighter/spellblade multi classes with a Mage/Wizardry/swordmage