If you really loved 4e, why do you at least like 5e (Only positive here please)

Short rest/Long rest split.

Quick non-magical healing is an option.

I can see playing a 4e character with just some numbers changed to the BA paradigm.

The monsters are very close to the 4e versions with the numbers changed to the BA paradigm.   
Only things related to 4e that resonate for me reside on the DM side of things. 

The creature stat block is similar so it takes no time to get comfortable with the new format. Its a shame trained skills line missed the cut though.

The skill check tiers (ie. easy, moderate, hard). DCs are things I liked about 4e skills checks because it made it easy to indicate the difficulty of a task.

I also like that they took the line from pg 42, "If a character tries an action that might fail, use a check to resolve it" and expanded it and highlighted it in its own block text. I feel like that is the most important line written on the page so seeing it expanded to its own Ignoring the Dice section is a good thing.

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke

  • Short/Long rest As well as the action to regain.  Gives a variety of recharges (AED) and allowing for stratigic play.

  • Less need for magical healing.

  • Hit dice make an resonable replacement for surges. (except for potions...)

  • Somewhat easy to houserule to tactical combat (double HP, and all short/long rest abilities).

  • Monster stat blocks are clean and easy to run.

  • Lengendary monsters take the best part of solo's.  And the terrain effects can really spice up combat.

  • BA let's you do mass minion battles without needed to minion-ize creatures.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

+1 to all above.

And we're *getting* to a place where round-to-round decision-making is becoming interesting.
1) Short rests.
2) Self healing.  While I would prefer surges, HDs at least create an opening in the design space that a surge module can be easily plugged into.
3) Subclass customization.  I wish it was more robust, but I can build off of what's there.
4) Bigger feats.
5) Legendary Monsters.
6) Most of the main classes will be available upon release.  I'm hoping the warlock and sorcerer make it in to the release, and I'm still hoping for a warlord (even if it's a well-done subclass of fighter).
7) Most of the main races (3e PHB + the other 3 from the 4e PHB) will be available upon release.  I'm hoping the Tiefling and Dragonborn will make it into the PHB.  Together, that's only about 4-6 pages.
8) There is supposed to be choice given to us (i.e. traditional vs non), especially when it comes to healing, skill lists, caster resource systems, etc.
9) The downtime system sounds great.  I'm hoping that maneuvers and training in them can be added to this, just like spell research.

I'm sure there's more, but that's just off the top of my head.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

In no particular order:

1. Short and Long Rests
2. Hit Dice healing mechanic (fills the same role as healing surges for me)
3. At-will spells
4. Monster stat blocks that are simple yet at the same time evoke the feel of the monster
5. DMing is very easy
6. Legendary Monsters: seems like they took everything that was awesome about solos, removed the parts that didn't work, and added extra stuff to kick it up a notch.
7. Minions.  Though they no longer have that name, bounded accuracy means that low level monsters become effective minions.  And because I don't have to remake a new monster for each level, it is even easier to DM!
8. Skills separated from class.  This wasn't in 4E until the very end (it was an optional rule presented in Heroes of the Feywild), but it instantly resonated with me.

and the big one: the rules stay out of the way.  In all of my playtest sessions, I have never had to reference the rules.  The game has played very naturally, and the players were never "taken out of the action".

  • downtime system.  (presumably).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Also in 4e:
- Concept of Short and Long rest
- Concept of At-will and Encounter powers
- Concept of self-healing
- Codified condition effects
- Not overly unbalanced 

Not in 4e:
- Advantage/Disadvantage
- Concept of Experitise Dice for Fighter (Gladiator)
- Not highly dependant on magic items 
- Areas of knowledge
- Feats being optional (not keen of stats scaling in their place, but that's another matter)
- Inspiration mechanics (if it makes it in)

Gonna have to think on this...

Hmmm not limiting myself to the most recent packet as far as I can tell we may see elements from previous ones back - I assume each packet was testing different elements.


  • Attunement is better than body part slots..

  • divinities listing real world mythos

  • paladin = oath bound hero.

  • rangers favored enemies

  • how the dynamic of the sorceror class worked

  • how the simple fighter is a crit fisher build

  • how subclasses are being used 

  • I liked how skills were disconnected to specific attributes.

  • I liked expertise dice used as a resource.

  • I am starting to think action based recovery is intriguing.

  • I liked the fighters parry ability

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

 

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

 


Illuminatingly succinct.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

This is why we can't have nice things.
MMM it feels like a simplified 3x/PF/4e to me. I think they are trying to give simple and more complex options. The codified conditions feel very 4e to me. The encounter building etc feels very 4e. The spells feel somewhere between classic editions and more strict 4e powers. But I also like the fact that it isnt as complex; 4e ends up with its own design space, its own 'shtick' if you will. I wouldnt want another AD&D or another 4e, I want each edition going forward to have its own feel. In the end I dont like it as much as classic D&D or 4e, but I think it will be a fun game. One thing that is kind of weird is that I usually prefer to DM both 4e and classic editions, but with 5e I prefer to just be a player. I dont know if that is a good or bad thing, but it is different.
4e feats on their own weren't very complex. But each one referred to some game mechanic keyword, that was modifyable by a class feature here, a magic item there, another feat, a paragon path feature, an ED feature. And pretty soon the combinatorial complexity allowed all sorts of uber options that for an optimizer is great, but if you're a DM just trying to tell a story? Not so much. And especially since 1-2 people at each table bring PCs from the char op board, and the rest don't even understand the implications of this vs that class feature, that means there can be a huge disparity of power at the game table, despite all the measures taken to prevent that type of gaming the system. There is no system that tries to emulate a larger one (a fantasy world) that completely encapsulates that world. There are always things that exist (The Incompleteness Theorem), that cannot be explained within the rules of that system, yet exist nonetheless. 

I loved 4e for a brief period, optimizing my toons, and want some ability to optimize in any RPG, but no uber powered options that break the game, and others that sound nice but are weak-sauce that casual gamers will find exciting and thus take despite being trap options. I.e. EVERY subclass, feat, and class feature must be hammered out by char op people, and either extreme of OP-ness of UP-ness must be purged before publication.  
I actually like most of what I've seen of Next. I like ability checks instead of skills, it gives me more room as a DM to improvise. I like the most recent Fighter--with that one feat that lets you mark, I think it's finally possible for a 3.X fighter and a 4E fighter to sit down to play Next together with a minimum of fuss. I think the Mage offers a nice compromise between the AEDU caster and full-on Vancian casting. Also, I think there's room for tactical grid-based combat even without the related module. Also, in my experience, Next has been much easier for new people to pick up than 4E or 3.X.
MMM it feels like a simplified 3x/PF/4e to me. I think they are trying to give simple and more complex options. The codified conditions feel very 4e to me. The encounter building etc feels very 4e. The spells feel somewhere between classic editions and more strict 4e powers. But I also like the fact that it isnt as complex; 4e ends up with its own design space, its own 'shtick' if you will. I wouldnt want another AD&D or another 4e, I want each edition going forward to have its own feel. In the end I dont like it as much as classic D&D or 4e, but I think it will be a fun game. One thing that is kind of weird is that I usually prefer to DM both 4e and classic editions, but with 5e I prefer to just be a player. I dont know if that is a good or bad thing, but it is different.


That's really interesting, because I loved playing 4E and hated DMing it. But I love DMing Next. And I haven't actually had a chance to play it since like that third packet, or whichever one it was where they tried giving "martial damage dice" to all of the martial classes, so I can't really say much about that.
Okay how to articulate...

It's very easy to build encounters/adventures.
I think bounded accuracy coupled with advantage/disadvantage is a good idea.
       I look forward to seeing it's polished form.
Priest Domains!
I like many of the concepts in the sub-classes, but then again I loved kits in 2nd Ed.
Saves/Defenses related to every Attribute.
Ability check generalization (reminds me of my favourite page out of the 4E DMG).
The concept of modularity has great merit.
      I look forward to seeing it's implementation. 
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
Easy to DM
New Material
Transparent and easy to manipulate Math
Easy to disect the rules and "Build your own" without concern of messing up the rest of the game.
Pretty artwork and nice font in the books and pdfs. 
 



This
Some of the concept art was good...


Thanks guys for the comments.

Frothsof, I find it interesting that people prefer different games depending on whether they play or DM.  I guess I DM 98% of the time so I have primarily a DM's view.  
-Advantage was kind of fun, if not very inovative since 4th Ed had it in certain areas since the PHB2.  The idea of spreading it out to a more encompasing mechanic was nice. 

-Keeping the Alignment system nearly dead is not ideal, but it will have to do.  I'm guessing we'll have to go through one more generation of gamers before we can pull its plug and let it go gentley into the night.

And so far that's what I have to like about DDN.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

I can say after DMing 4th, I will never switch back too DM a older edition(got burnt out from all the prep), in that area next looks like its trying to stay similiar to 4th.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

 



This


+1

I just wanted a moment to say thanks to frothsof, and Verdigris, and all of the other 4 fans who made a constructive comment in this thread.  When the OP asks for opinions and makes a clear effort to keep comments positive, and some folks can't resist the need to crap all over it, it's very easy for someone who doesn't play 4e to come away with a certain impression of 4e fans.  I mean, there are identical threads on this topic for each edition, and you don't see fans of those editions doing the same behavior.

So I wanted to personally thank each one of you that responded constructively, because it's not fair to fans of 4e for people to have these impressions.  For one, it's not nearly accurate for the vast majority of 4e fans.  But you know what they say about impressions and bad apples.  I'm 100% sincere in this; no snark.  Thanks guys.
I just wanted a moment to say thanks to frothsof, and Verdigris, and all of the other 4 fans who made a constructive comment in this thread.  When the OP asks for opinions and makes a clear effort to keep comments positive, and some folks can't resist the need to crap all over it, it's very easy for someone who doesn't play 4e to come away with a certain impression of 4e fans.  I mean, there are identical threads on this topic for each edition, and you don't see fans of those editions doing the same behavior.

So I wanted to personally thank each one of you that responded constructively, because it's not fair to fans of 4e for people to have these impressions.  For one, it's not nearly accurate for the vast majority of 4e fans.  But you know what they say about impressions and bad apples.  I'm 100% sincere in this; no snark.  Thanks guys.



+1
I have enjoyed the rules light feel with it being easy to play when the dice hit the table (to quote myself). 

The fact is, I think this is truly the first rules light version of D&D we've ever seen (if they stick to the base mechanic that has been running through out the play test) and while I'm currently in love with 13th Age, there is some chance DDN can drag me back. 
I just wanted a moment to say thanks to frothsof, and Verdigris, and all of the other 4 fans who made a constructive comment in this thread.  When the OP asks for opinions and makes a clear effort to keep comments positive, and some folks can't resist the need to crap all over it, it's very easy for someone who doesn't play 4e to come away with a certain impression of 4e fans.  I mean, there are identical threads on this topic for each edition, and you don't see fans of those editions doing the same behavior.

So I wanted to personally thank each one of you that responded constructively, because it's not fair to fans of 4e for people to have these impressions.  For one, it's not nearly accurate for the vast majority of 4e fans.  But you know what they say about impressions and bad apples.  I'm 100% sincere in this; no snark.  Thanks guys.

It's more because they are loosing their edition.

When 3e came out, you had the same thing from 1/2e'ers.
When 4e came out, you had the same thing from 3e'ers.
And now that 5e is comming out, it's 4e'ers time to go though the greiving process.

Not to say they are being helpful (they arn't)...  but it's not something about 4e fans.  It's just humans in general.

Even if the new dog does nothing wrong.  Some people will be upset because it is not their old dog.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Needless to say I'm a pretty strong 4E fan and occasional 4venger when it comes to countering (IMO) ridiculous complaints against the system. Regardless, I'd be lying if I didn't say that there are quite a few qualities I'm currently seeing with Next. It might not be my preferred edition to do strong-emphasized campagins with at this point (could change in the future?) but I see the merits. Here's my list.

• Advantage/Disadvantage - It's powerful and swingy and I think those are some of it's best features. I don't think it should be applied as often as it is, but that can be easily changed by the DM. It's also very simple and multiple stackings don't exist (which would make it a bear of a horrid mechanic).

• Lower math - One thing that I have started to shy away from is BIG NUMBERS. I understand their purpose at times (really a town guard should NOT be able to touch Balor with his sword) but when the numbers were hitting 40's and 50's in the defenses and hundreds in the damage....I just started to lose interest. And it was the same with 3E. I had to scrap my 20th level Barbarian/Fighter/Frenzied Berserker because he just did TOO much damage. 2d6 + 149 x2 per attack (of which he got 4 on a charge) was just ridiculous. A character should not be able to 1-shot the Tarrasque. Period. So I'm happy in a way with Bounded Accuracy.

• More organic play - While I never had a problem improvizing in 4E and though using out-of-the-box thinking only ENHANCED the game with codified powers I can understand that people felt hampered and boxed in by them. I don't really know why (since Improv has been in the game forever) but I guss the layout sorta "shut down" that processing center in people's brains that made them go "Oh, I don't have a power for that so I can/t do it". I dunno but the rules now seem to help facilitate more organic play and not relying 100% on what's written down on your sheet. Perhaps it's because a player receives LESS on their sheet, but that's for another story.

• Alignment is there but not forces down our thoats. I like that I can still play a Chaotic Paladin of freedom or a Neutral Good paladin of Amaunator/Lathander.

• At-will cantrips - a 3E innovation (at least from my experience) that carried onto 4E full-time and now into Next is a great way for me to play a spellcasters but still feel magical when all my BIG BANGS are used. I never ever want to be forced into being a crossbow wielding wizard again. Now their scaling could be turned down a tad but not over much. I still want them to scale but maybe d6 or d8 until 11th level and then 2d6 or 2d8 til 20th. I think that's resonable. Also, I'd like to see more diversity in them.

• Feats - While I don't like that they don't start until 4th level (which means i'll be starting nearly 99% of my campaigns at 3rd level) I like that they're larget packages and no longer a list of feat chains. I'd also like to see more than 4 for most classes. A simple solution is to give everyone 1 feat at 1st level and just be done with it. Oh well, it's a campaign decision that will probably suffice.

• Skills (when they're implemented) - Hopefully we'll see a more robust skill list than the LORE once we recently received. I like the LORE ones but think they (meaning general skills) need to be expanded for more diversity. Right now everyone with a good Dex is equally good at Riding or Balance even if they've NEVER touched a horse or walked a high-ledge. But what I like is the idea of skills being divorced from classes. That, to me, is the ticket.


Oh well, that's all I can think of right now off the top of my head.
Things I like about 4e that I like about 5th:

Class balance seems to be a design goal.

Fighters get more complex and powerful options than "I swing my weapon at the thing we're fighting" that don't rely on feat tree shenanigans.

Spellcasters get spells they can cast at will.

Healing isn't limited to divine magical sources.

Finesse fighters are, if not optimal, at least viable. 

At-will, encounter and daily resources for just about anyone who wants them.  

Point budget encounter building!    


Things I like about  5th that aren't in 4e:

Quickly resolved combat!    

Combat can be resolved without a grid, or any complex positional tracking for that matter.

Magic items are interesting narrative bonuses, rather than a standard equipment, character building resource.

party roles can be chosen independant of character class.

Bounded Accuracy as a design goal.
"When Friday comes, we'll all call rats fish." D&D Outsider
Things I like about 4e that I like about 5th:

Class balance seems to be a design goal.

Fighters get more complex and powerful options than "I swing my weapon at the thing we're fighting" that don't rely on feat tree shenanigans.

Spellcasters get spells they can cast at will.

Healing isn't limited to divine magical sources.

Finesse fighters are, if not optimal, at least viable. 

At-will, encounter and daily resources for just about anyone who wants them.  

Point budget encounter building!    


Things I like about  5th that aren't in 4e:

Quickly resolved combat!    

Combat can be resolved without a grid, or any complex positional tracking for that matter.

Magic items are interesting narrative bonuses, rather than a standard equipment, character building resource.

party roles can be chosen independant of character class.

Bounded Accuracy as a design goal.



This is an excellent post

I just wanted a moment to say thanks to frothsof, and Verdigris, and all of the other 4 fans who made a constructive comment in this thread.  When the OP asks for opinions and makes a clear effort to keep comments positive, and some folks can't resist the need to crap all over it, it's very easy for someone who doesn't play 4e to come away with a certain impression of 4e fans.  I mean, there are identical threads on this topic for each edition, and you don't see fans of those editions doing the same behavior.

So I wanted to personally thank each one of you that responded constructively, because it's not fair to fans of 4e for people to have these impressions.  For one, it's not nearly accurate for the vast majority of 4e fans.  But you know what they say about impressions and bad apples.  I'm 100% sincere in this; no snark.  Thanks guys.


Lighten up, Francis.(hopefully you saw Stripes)


I like that Next currently has a healing surge for the fighter and I hope to see this mechanic expanded to other classes.

I also like, at least according to the latest video playtest, that they are going to have the promised rules for tactical/grid combat.

I also like that they are going to have Dragonborn and Tieflings again.
  
I like that Next currently has a healing surge for the fighter and I hope to see this mechanic expanded to other classes.

I also like, at least according to the latest video playtest, that they are going to have the promised rules for tactical/grid combat.

I also like that they are going to have Dragonborn and Tieflings again.
  



1) No please, god no. Surges are wrong for the fighter, they're wrong for D&D, and they're wrong for America. Keep our kids surge-free.

2) Yay for grid combat, but so long as it's not required every fight. That would ruin D&D Next just as much as 1)

3)  I love drabonborn, so long as there's a feat to grow wings.
I like that Next currently has a healing surge for the fighter and I hope to see this mechanic expanded to other classes.

I also like, at least according to the latest video playtest, that they are going to have the promised rules for tactical/grid combat.

I also like that they are going to have Dragonborn and Tieflings again.
  



1) No please, god no. Surges are wrong for the fighter, they're wrong for D&D, and they're wrong for America. Keep our kids surge-free.

2) Yay for grid combat, but so long as it's not required every fight. That would ruin D&D Next just as much as 1)

3)  I love drabonborn, so long as there's a feat to grow wings.


Its not surges, its just a daily that Im fairly sure will be optional in the final product. Do you have to be overdramatic about everything.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.



  • downtime system.  (presumably).




Where is the downtime system in the playtest, specifically.

AD&D 1st Edition Character (Simplified)

BIOGRAPHY
Name: Brother Michael
Adventuring Class: Cleric
Adventuring Experience: 1446 out of 1501
Bonus Experience: 10%
Languages Known: Common, Orc, Elven.
Alignment: Lawful/Neutral Good
ABILITY SCORES
Strength: 10
Dexterity: 10
Intelligence: 11
Charisma: 11
Constitution: 14
Wisdom: 16
WEAPONS: HIT; MEDIUM; LARGE
Footman’s Flail: 1d20; 1d6+1; 1d4
Hammer (Thrown): 1d20; 1d4+1; 1d4
Sling: 1d20-3; 1d4+1; 1d6+1
MAGIC
Today’s Prepared Spells: Cure Light Wounds x2, Command x1
Spells Spent: Cure Light Wounds x1
Other Cleric Abilities: Turn Undead
Spell Failure: 0%
Magical Attack Adjustment: +2
DEFENSES
Armor: 5 (-4 Armor, -1 Shield)
Maximum Health: 10
Current Health: 9
CONSUMABLE ITEMS
Water Skin
7 Days of Trail Rations
7 Pints (Flasks) of Oil
1 Ounce (Vial) of Holy Water
4 Parchments
12 Sling Bullets
6 Pieces of Silver
8 Pieces of Twine



  • downtime system.  (presumably).




Where is the downtime system in the playtest, specifically.

It doesn't exsits.

But from the L&L, i presumably will like it.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I like that Next currently has a healing surge for the fighter and I hope to see this mechanic expanded to other classes.

I also like, at least according to the latest video playtest, that they are going to have the promised rules for tactical/grid combat.

I also like that they are going to have Dragonborn and Tieflings again.
  



1) No please, god no. Surges are wrong for the fighter, they're wrong for D&D, and they're wrong for America. Keep our kids surge-free.



Eh, a bit melodramatic for my tastes. I give it a 3. Anyways, I don't think they were wrong at all. I enjoyed the fact that no matter HOW much healing you received (because...ya know....magic ) your body FINALLY needed some rest to recover. Further, I like that the healing system was some what de-coupled as it's own system. Now we can agree that perhaps the amount of healing surges received was a bit much. Does my 9th level Warlord really need 8 surges/day? I'd be more or less happy with about half that. Also, it should've been great as a suggestion to town them down to help provide a more grittier aspect to the system in the 4E DMG (unless I missed that part?).

As for Next, I'd enjoy an option in say....the DMG for alternate healing systems (heck, we got some in 3E). I don't think it's TOO much to ask them to give it a shot with some alternative ideas. Heck I don't even use the system they have in place. I currently use the Wound/Vitality system which separates inspirational and meat and makes Criticals actually worth a damn.


2) Yay for grid combat, but so long as it's not required every fight. That would ruin D&D Next just as much as 1)



Well they've said as much and almost ALL the rules support TotM (for whatever good that is) but again, I think most of us jsut want options and I think they can deliver them.


3)  I love drabonborn, so long as there's a feat to grow wings.



I think it's a safe bet that we're just not going to see this in the PHB. Nothing MM as stated even comes close to suggest Racial feats so if we do see them (who knows?) it'll be farther down the road in probably some different supplement.

@JessicaT
Please do not contaminate this thread with anti-4e rhetoric.  This thread is for positive comments from people who liked 4e about 5e.  I don't believe that includes you.   So please desist.
4E had some good ideas that have reappeared appeared in various DDN packets.  It would be nice if Mearls didn't have a compulsion to disguise them, though.
Needless to say I'm a pretty strong 4E fan and occasional 4venger when it comes to countering (IMO) ridiculous complaints against the system. Regardless, I'd be lying if I didn't say that there are quite a few qualities I'm currently seeing with Next. It might not be my preferred edition to do strong-emphasized campagins with at this point (could change in the future?) but I see the merits. Here's my list.

• Advantage/Disadvantage - It's powerful and swingy and I think those are some of it's best features. I don't think it should be applied as often as it is, but that can be easily changed by the DM. It's also very simple and multiple stackings don't exist (which would make it a bear of a horrid mechanic).

• Lower math - One thing that I have started to shy away from is BIG NUMBERS. I understand their purpose at times (really a town guard should NOT be able to touch Balor with his sword) but when the numbers were hitting 40's and 50's in the defenses and hundreds in the damage....I just started to lose interest. And it was the same with 3E. I had to scrap my 20th level Barbarian/Fighter/Frenzied Berserker because he just did TOO much damage. 2d6 + 149 x2 per attack (of which he got 4 on a charge) was just ridiculous. A character should not be able to 1-shot the Tarrasque. Period. So I'm happy in a way with Bounded Accuracy.

• More organic play - While I never had a problem improvizing in 4E and though using out-of-the-box thinking only ENHANCED the game with codified powers I can understand that people felt hampered and boxed in by them. I don't really know why (since Improv has been in the game forever) but I guss the layout sorta "shut down" that processing center in people's brains that made them go "Oh, I don't have a power for that so I can/t do it". I dunno but the rules now seem to help facilitate more organic play and not relying 100% on what's written down on your sheet. Perhaps it's because a player receives LESS on their sheet, but that's for another story.

• Alignment is there but not forces down our thoats. I like that I can still play a Chaotic Paladin of freedom or a Neutral Good paladin of Amaunator/Lathander.

• At-will cantrips - a 3E innovation (at least from my experience) that carried onto 4E full-time and now into Next is a great way for me to play a spellcasters but still feel magical when all my BIG BANGS are used. I never ever want to be forced into being a crossbow wielding wizard again. Now their scaling could be turned down a tad but not over much. I still want them to scale but maybe d6 or d8 until 11th level and then 2d6 or 2d8 til 20th. I think that's resonable. Also, I'd like to see more diversity in them.

• Feats - While I don't like that they don't start until 4th level (which means i'll be starting nearly 99% of my campaigns at 3rd level) I like that they're larget packages and no longer a list of feat chains. I'd also like to see more than 4 for most classes. A simple solution is to give everyone 1 feat at 1st level and just be done with it. Oh well, it's a campaign decision that will probably suffice.

• Skills (when they're implemented) - Hopefully we'll see a more robust skill list than the LORE once we recently received. I like the LORE ones but think they (meaning general skills) need to be expanded for more diversity. Right now everyone with a good Dex is equally good at Riding or Balance even if they've NEVER touched a horse or walked a high-ledge. But what I like is the idea of skills being divorced from classes. That, to me, is the ticket.


Oh well, that's all I can think of right now off the top of my head.



I agree with most of these minus bounded accuracy, advantage/disadvantage, and lore skills...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.