+2 Bonus, Odd Stats, and the Default Array

Anyone else feel like the +2 bonus makes taking an odd stat even more of a penalty, now that its a +2 bonus, then it was before?

Either you have to take 2 odd stats, and down 2 +1 mods until level 4, where you'll have to skip a feat, or you take 1 odd stat, and any future attribute point increases you take will only be at half effectiveness.

If you have one odd stat, and you take a +1/+1 split, you'll bump up that stat...and now have another odd stat. That second attribute point got you nothing. If you take +2, then you still have an odd stat, and the second attribute point gets you nothing.

The array only having one odd numbered stat causes all sorts of problems, based on the + to attributes of each race. If you put one of your +1s in the 13, than the other +1 has to go into an even stat, pushing you to an odd again, and wasting that +1. If you put neither point into the 13, then you'll end up with 3 odd numbered stats. In regards to human, with the standard array, only one of those +1 to all stats gives you any sort of mechanical benefit.

If choosing a feat is balanced against getting a +2 to an attribute/2 +1s to an attribute, then balance goes completely out of whack with odd numbers, since they cause you, in many cases, to only get +1 attribute out of the +2 bump. 
Yes, that is a problem.

I liked the Idea of half-feats proposed somewhere else:

Some rare feats, that give a bonus of +1 to a certain stat and a little benefit. Would fit into the game.
Another reason for lesser feats.

+1 to 1 stat, and a smaller bonus. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

or make default stats:

10 average, +0 mod

...
  7, -3
  8, -2
  9, -1
10, +0
11, +1
12, +2
13, +3
14, +4
15, +5(max for humanoids without magic aid)

then a feat would give sipmle +1 to stat(and mod) boost.

or make default stats:

10 average, +0 mod

...
  7, -3
  8, -2
  9, -1
10, +0
11, +1
12, +2
13, +3
14, +4
15, +5(max for humanoids without magic aid)

then a feat would give sipmle +1 to stat(and mod) boost.




I don't think an idea similar to that is bad, I just don't know how to wrap my brain around the math behind it. 

Also, +1 to 2 stats for race is now equivilent to +2 to 2 stats, point buy becomes more tricky, and if they still allow a +3 at chargen, adding the racial bonus puts you only 1 point off of the cap.

You do realize that if you have two 15's that you can raise them both 1 instead of a single score by 2.

thus two 15's go to two 16's and now you have an additional +1 on two scores. 

My Blog which includes my Hobby Award Winning articles.

Yeah, actually he does. The problem is, if you have an odd number of odd stats, you are always lacking a single +1 bump. (Usually not critical, but it feels as if you have a wasted stat bump.)
You do realize that if you have two 15's that you can raise them both 1 instead of a single score by 2.

thus two 15's go to two 16's and now you have an additional +1 on two scores. 



Yes, which requires 2 things:

1- You start with two odd stats, which means for the first 3 levels, at minimum, you are down 2 +1 modifiers. Thats kind of a big deal, and theres no mechanical benefit to it
2- If you go that route, your first feat choice almost HAS to be a +1/+1 stat bump to those 2 stats. Most classes wont get another choice until level 8

But thats all kind of my point. If you take 1 odd stat, you will ALWAYS have 1 odd stat, and future attribute increases will most likely only come at half strength, which throws off balance. If you take 2 odd stats, you're basically significantly reducing the power of your character until your next attribute bump choice, in which your "choice" most certainly has to be taking a +1/+1 split to those stats

Also, the standard array forces you to have either 1 or 3 odd stats, which means you will always have odd numbered stats. It should be more like 16-13-13-12-10-10

Heres the thing: odd stats are not fun. You get nothing out of them mechanically, and they don't really help you roleplay at all. Like it or not, roleplay needs some underlying mechanics to support it. If you want your character to be more charismatic, so you give him a 15 instead of a 14, you can say you're more charismatic, and act more charismatic, but anything you try to actually DO will have you exactly as charismatic if you had a 14. Its not a matter of taking a sub par choice to allow you to mechanically play a cool, unoptomized character option. Its a flat out trap, that doesn't provide any mechanical means to convey your envisioned character idea. 
tl;dr - the system pigeon holes you. If you have one odd stat, its a 100% trap to not have a second odd stat, unless your odd stat is basically a dump stat. 
I've never understood this obsession with stats anyway.  In every edition of D&D I've ever seen (and that includes 4e), the difference between a 16 and an 18 is negligable.   Worth having? Yes.  Worth obsessing over?  No.

My Blog which includes my Hobby Award Winning articles.

I've never understood this obsession with stats anyway.  In every edition of D&D I've ever seen (and that includes 4e), the difference between a 16 and an 18 is negligable.   Worth having? Yes.  Worth obsessing over?  No.



1: in bounded accuracy, that +1 is way more important. With lower target numbers, +1 is a larger percentage increase to hit

2. While you believe that the difference between a 16 and an 18 is negligible(i would disagree), the difference between a 16 and a 17 is nonexistant. Thats indisputable. And, in my opinion, forcing you to take  an "upgrade" that is literally not at all an upgrade, or a sidegrade, or any sort of grade, is poor game design.
I've never understood this obsession with stats anyway.  In every edition of D&D I've ever seen (and that includes 4e), the difference between a 16 and an 18 is negligable.   Worth having? Yes.  Worth obsessing over?  No.



1: in bounded accuracy, that +1 is way more important. With lower target numbers, +1 is a larger percentage increase to hit


I think everything is a lot easier to hit in 5e.  I just don't obsess about someone getting ahead of me.  I have to think though the way you are thinking that you are a point buy person.  If you roll the group is bound to have someone at least 2 higher than someone else at level one.  That wouldn't bother me at all but if you really care like you do I'd have to think you'd go the point buy route.  Given that fact, can't you just plan your character to optimize your choices?


2. While you believe that the difference between a 16 and an 18 is negligible(i would disagree), the difference between a 16 and a 17 is nonexistant. Thats indisputable. And, in my opinion, forcing you to take  an "upgrade" that is literally not at all an upgrade, or a sidegrade, or any sort of grade, is poor game design.



That is why you have the option at add two +1's or one +2.  

Even given the rare odd situation, I don't think it's at all out of character in D&D to have choices that don't mature until later.   Many feat chains in 3e had an initial feat that was pretty worthless.

 

My Blog which includes my Hobby Award Winning articles.

1: in bounded accuracy, that +1 is way more important. With lower target numbers, +1 is a larger percentage increase to hit

Not really.

Doesn't matter if it's +30 ->+31, or +2->+3.  It's a flat 5% better chance.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I've never understood this obsession with stats anyway.  In every edition of D&D I've ever seen (and that includes 4e), the difference between a 16 and an 18 is negligable.   Worth having? Yes.  Worth obsessing over?  No.



1: in bounded accuracy, that +1 is way more important. With lower target numbers, +1 is a larger percentage increase to hit


I think everything is a lot easier to hit in 5e.  I just don't obsess about someone getting ahead of me.  I have to think though the way you are thinking that you are a point buy person.  If you roll the group is bound to have someone at least 2 higher than someone else at level one.  That wouldn't bother me at all but if you really care like you do I'd have to think you'd go the point buy route.  Given that fact, can't you just plan your character to optimize your choices?


2. While you believe that the difference between a 16 and an 18 is negligible(i would disagree), the difference between a 16 and a 17 is nonexistant. Thats indisputable. And, in my opinion, forcing you to take  an "upgrade" that is literally not at all an upgrade, or a sidegrade, or any sort of grade, is poor game design.



That is why you have the option at add two +1's or one +2.  

Even given the rare odd situation, I don't think it's at all out of character in D&D to have choices that don't mature until later.   Many feat chains in 3e had an initial feat that was pretty worthless.

 



1. I've already said that this only affects point buy and standard array takers. Honestly, I haven't played a game where we rolled for stats(in any gaming group ive been in) in probably a decade

2. "That is why you have the option at add two +1's or one +2.  

Even given the rare odd situation, I don't think it's at all out of character in D&D to have choices that don't mature until later."

My point is that the situation will never mature if you have one or 3 odd stats. The situation only matures later if you have exactly two odd stats. Because of this, mechanically, you're pigeon holed into 0 or 2 odd stats only. You can argue that thats only if you want to min-max, but theres no actual RP benefit(at least in the mechanics of the game) to have a 15 strength over a 14. If you want to say your character is really strong, thats fine, but unless your DM likes to houserule everything, saying your stronger than a strength 14 character will never actually manifest itself within the mechanics of the game.

"Many feat chains in 3e had an initial feat that was pretty worthless" - Pretty worthless != 100%, totaly worthless. There was no feat in the game with a description of " ". (yes. those are empty quotes. implying a feat that you took that provided literally nothing)

Odd stats need to do something, or we need the option of choosing a +1. While people may infer from my posts that im a min-maxing munchkin, i almost always play unbroken, average(but still optimized) average characters. I believe that achieving system mastery can help you make better characters that are also more accurate to the initial theme you envisioned when creating them. I don't mind choices that allow you to take a less powerful option for thematic reasons. There is no thematic reason to take a 15 str over a 14 str. It is simply a trap option that makes you worse off in the long run. 



1: in bounded accuracy, that +1 is way more important. With lower target numbers, +1 is a larger percentage increase to hit

Not really.

Doesn't matter if it's +30 ->+31, or +2->+3.  It's a flat 5% better chance.




No, going from a 2 to a 3 is a 33% increase in your accuracy. Going from 30 to 31 is ~4% increase in accuracy. 

You also need to take into account hitting your target numbers. 15 to hit against a 20 is 75%. 15 to hit against a 30 is 50%. 16 to hit against a 20 is 80%, and 16 to hit against a 30 is 53%. So against higher targets, the extra 1 to hit is providing less increase then it is against lower targets.
@Kattahn
Well I suppose if you are point buying, then just don't buy that single odd stat or that third one.  I don't get it.   If you have 3 then probably one of those three isn't that important.

If you don't have anyplace to put the points except to make a stat a 15 instead of a 14 then if it makes you feel better just throw those points away.

Here I'll make up a Feat to help you out.

Feat Name           Effect
Focus                   Add +1 to one ability score and +1 to one skill that uses that ability score.


 

My Blog which includes my Hobby Award Winning articles.

@Kattahn
Well I suppose if you are point buying, then just don't buy that single odd stat or that third one.  I don't get it.   If you have 3 then probably one of those three isn't that important.

If you don't have anyplace to put the points except to make a stat a 15 instead of a 14 then if it makes you feel better just throw those points away.

Here I'll make up a Feat to help you out.

Feat Name           Effect
Focus                   Add +1 to one ability score and +1 to one skill that uses that ability score.


 



Feats like that don't solve the problem. Feats are optional. In games without feats, that is not an option. The way the point buy works out, for non humans, ending up with 1 odd stat is pretty common. And thats an odd stat you'll have forever.

"If you don't have anyplace to put the points except to make a stat a 15 instead of a 14 then if it makes you feel better just throw those points away."

How is this a solution? This is the entire reason im having this discussion! The game needs to be somewhat balanced. How would you feel if you sat down for a game and the DM said "all of you use a 30 point buy in. Except you, Emrikol. You get a 29 point buy in". Or, since you seem to feel that point buy/arrays are some sort of evil, "Everyone, Roll 3D6 6 times. Emrikol,  roll 3D6 5 times, and 3D4 1 time."

Again, if a character wants to make themselves weaker to express some sort of theme or play out an envisioned character concept, thats fine. But having in game options that make a character weaker while providing no upside, and leave that character weaker for the rest of the game, is just bad game design. 
Also, WoTC provides a standard point array. Weather you like point buys/arrays or not, they're an option, and a heavily used option, provided officially by WoTC. 

The array they provide is broken in this regard. Your character will always have 1 odd stat, and thus is operating at one ability mod lower than it should.

And for humans, it makes no sense. You end up with 5 odd stats, meaning humans, who get no other racial features, get only an effective +1 to a stat, making them by far the worst race if your DM wants you to use the standard array(again, another common thing done by DMs)

The ultimate solution is to find a way to make odd stats meaningful. Options that provide no benefit, mechanically or thematically, to your character, are bad options and shouldn't be on the table. 
1: in bounded accuracy, that +1 is way more important. With lower target numbers, +1 is a larger percentage increase to hit

Not really.

Doesn't matter if it's +30 ->+31, or +2->+3.  It's a flat 5% better chance.




No, going from a 2 to a 3 is a 33% increase in your accuracy. Going from 30 to 31 is ~4% increase in accuracy.

Definatly not.

2->3 is a 50% increase in damage.  But only a 5% increase on the d20.

You also need to take into account hitting your target numbers. 15 to hit against a 20 is 75%. 15 to hit against a 30 is 50%. 16 to hit against a 20 is 80%, and 16 to hit against a 30 is 53%. So against higher targets, the extra 1 to hit is providing less increase then it is against lower targets.

Yes.

+2 vs 13 = 50% of the time.  Add +1, and your at 55% of the time.
30 vs 41 = 50% of the time.  Add +1, and your at 55% of the time.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

+1 to one stat and a proficiency of your choice.

Using point buy I never had a hard time figuring out ways to only have an odd stat in a dump stat, given bonuses. Heck, if I play a human I could have three 16s, one ten, and one 11 and three 9s (assuming I consider those dump stats, which is probably not sure but who cares?). 

Besides, ability checks still benefit from each +1.

My dwarf cleric has 16 10 14 10 16 8 post racials, so, 16 16 14 10 10 8, see what I did there? Voila, a perfectly good character. This pattern can be applied to pretty much any character. All you need to do is use point buy for 16 in your main stat and take the hit there, then put a 15 and a 13 in your two racial bonus slots, assuming one is more valuable than the other. That way, your ability bumps are always 16 -> 18

This is not even a bug, it actually works perfectly with point buy.

Let's see with dice rolling, you're concerned with your main stat first, right? Well you have roughly 40% chance of getting a natural 18 or a 17+1. If you roll a 16 as your top, but don't have a 15, you put that in your main stat, even if your race gives you that +1 that doesn't amount to an even score. Why? Because then you still have a good chance of finding another odd stat to bump it. Think about it, your odds are 50-50 to having an even or odd number, having none be even for all other stats is 0.5 ^ 5 = 0.03. So a 3% chance that you will not have another odd stat.

If you agonize about having a perfect character, use point buy and plan it out. If you are like me, and are willing to risk a strong secondary stat at 16 and a third at 14, you have a 40% chance of having an 18 at level 1, assuming your race lines up with the stat you like. For my character, I really wanted both str and wis to be very good, and the reliability of having two 16s and a 14 and only one negative is simply too good.

For another character, who likes single stats more, like a fighter maybe, I might risk rolling to get that 17/18 at level 1. Actually I think all fighters should probably roll for stats, they should be replacable j/k. Better luck next time. The party can go on, with their cleric but having a level 1 fighter take the place of the old one, much better than a level 1 cleric trying to be support for a higher level group.

 
+1 attribute +3 hit points.

My Blog which includes my Hobby Award Winning articles.

Most groups I've played with prefer to roll 4d6 drop lowest.  There haven't been any issues in over 30 years that way, and none of us even remotely care if someone else happened to roll an 18 when I rolled a 16.  It certainly seems a bit odd to me to get really upset about this particular mechanic.  I guess it's because we've never really put a lot of focus into maxing out bonuses or worried about it.  We played the game to have fun as a social interaction exploring a fantasy world and creating some awesome stories.  An extra +1 or whatever didn't really impact that.

To each their own, I guess.  I certainly don't want to imply our style as "the right way".
The array they provide is broken in this regard. Your character will always have 1 odd stat, and thus is operating at one ability mod lower than it should.

And for humans, it makes no sense. You end up with 5 odd stats, meaning humans, who get no other racial features, get only an effective +1 to a stat, making them by far the worst race if your DM wants you to use the standard array(again, another common thing done by DMs)

The ultimate solution is to find a way to make odd stats meaningful. Options that provide no benefit, mechanically or thematically, to your character, are bad options and shouldn't be on the table. 



When did Wotc ever guarantee that every character must be perfectly optimised? I must have missed the memo.

btw, humans are arguably the best, those 15 -> 16s are worth a heck of a lot. First of all, one of the standard options is all 13s. So, you have +2 to everything right off the bat. Not bad, eh? Two bumps later you are at 18 in your main stat, and 14s for everything else. By level 12, 20 in main stat and 14s in everything else. By 20, 20 main stat, two 16s, and 14s for the rest. All even.

Having a single odd stat is not going to kill anyone, just put it in your dump stat and be done with it.

Simply leave odd values to rolled stats, rig the pointbuys for even steps, and full admit that it's a relic of 1974.
Actually one thing Im hoping next pulls off is getting rid of the need to dumping everything into your main stat. I would like to see a fighter with a 14 in str be usefull to the partyand not feel like he needs too use all his feats to boost his strength.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

btw, humans are arguably the best

Nah.

I'd much rather have halfing's lucky.
Half-orcs +2 Str worth about as much point buy, and dark vision is worth a feat by itself.
Gnome's saving throw bonus is very powerful.

Humans are on the lower half.  Still above elves, but not nearly as great as everyone makes them out to be. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

or make default stats:

10 average, +0 mod

...
  7, -3
  8, -2
  9, -1
10, +0
11, +1
12, +2
13, +3
14, +4
15, +5(max for humanoids without magic aid)

then a feat would give sipmle +1 to stat(and mod) boost.




I'd make it slightly more common to have no bonus in the middle, pushing the bonus farther up and down the chart.

4, -5
5, -4
6, -3
7, -2 
8, -1 
9 - 12 (give or take one integer in either direction) = no adjustment 
13, +1
14, +2
15, +3
16, +4
17 and up, +5



I seem to recall the Ability score bonuses didn't start until 13 (and penalties didn't start until 8), way back in one of those 1980's editions. 

 

Tornado Party: a roleplaying game theory blog

Systems ran: 2e, 3.5e, nWoD, cWoD, SW (West End)

Systems played: 2e, nWoD, cWoD, MET, Ironclaw, Rifts, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun

Minor note: having an odd strength score does have the mechanical benefit of increasing your carrying capacity/max encumberance. Little consolation for most, but it should be mentioned.

As much as I'm sometimes annoyed by odd stats, I generally look at it like Emerikol suggested: it's a facet of my character that will mature later. And I definitely take that into account when signassigning my stats at first level. I can't be bothered getting upset over one or two measly +1 modifiers my character won't get over twenty levels of adventuring. Even within the scope of bounded accuracy in Next.
Yeah, actually he does. The problem is, if you have an odd number of odd stats, you are always lacking a single +1 bump. (Usually not critical, but it feels as if you have a wasted stat bump.)



  And your odd stat will be in something you don't care about unless you're one of the very few who roll the stat rather than assign or point buy.

  Starting with 16 STR/CON bumping to 17s for humans means you only need 3 increases to get them to 20s rather than 4.  No problems.

@mikemearls don't quite understand the difference

I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down. - Eric Cartman

Enough chitchat!  Time is candy! - Pinky Pie


I'd much rather have halfing's lucky.



My DMs play with fumbles on a 1.  That luck ability is HUGE ;)
The better thing is to make odd stats matter. Do this by making scores matter.

Make jumps and carrying capacity based on score.
Make languages based on score.
Make followers based on score.
etc.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

The better thing is to make odd stats matter. Do this by making scores matter. Make jumps and carrying capacity based on score. Make languages based on score. Make followers based on score. etc.



Yeah, like the old "ability checks".  Something along those lines?
9 - 12 (give or take one integer in either direction) = no adjustment

A huge dead zone in the middle only makes the first not-zero value even more "mandatory".


I'd much rather have halfing's lucky.



My DMs play with fumbles on a 1.  That luck ability is HUGE ;)

Even without the fumble, it's almost (though not quite) +1 to all saving throws, skills, and attacks.

Humans (sorta) get +1/2 to all saving throws, skills, and attacks (and spell DC's, and hit points).


That doesn't even count the rest of the halfing abilites.   Though they are somewhat hampered by small and slow, so it's not a pure win.  Paticularly since they can't use GWM.

Still, (IMO) overall, halfing > dwarf > half-orc > human > elf > half-elf.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Remember we have not seen a Skill Module yet. What if it were +1 Ability, +4 Skill Points, OR a Mega Feat? While I would rather see Feats that are not so Mega and spreading out the bonuses the current system has possiblities...

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

Sorry, was at lunch. Ill just play some catch-up:

Humans with the standard array are terrible. Humans in point buy are insane(can get 16/16/16/10/10/10, or 16/16/14/14/10/10).

Bumping up your attributes now comes with a very significant tradeoff: you lose feats for doing so. Someone earlier suggested just using "3 of your attribute bonuses", which means you only get one feat, and wont get this all until lvl 19 or so. Most characters never make it that high.


"When did Wotc ever guarantee that every character must be perfectly optimised? I must have missed the memo."
I'm not arguing for "perfect optimization". Im arguing for not being forced to spend limited resources on literally nothing.  A single odd stat will always be an odd stat, and thus will always be one modifier lower. This does not come as a tradeoff to anything. When it was only a +1 bonus, you could eliminate it down the road with your +1 attribute bonus at a given level. Now you never can, unless you have 2 odd stats. 

"As much as I'm sometimes annoyed by odd stats, I generally look at it like Emerikol suggested: it's a facet of my character that will mature later."

It will never mature. If you have a single odd stat, it will always be an odd stat. It will never fully mature into an even stat. You will ALWAYS be +1 modifier lower, for the entirety of your characters lifespan. This cost comes at 0 benefit. You get aboslutely nothing from giving up that +1 mod. Thats a trap choice, and poor game design. 

"It certainly seems a bit odd to me to get really upset about this particular mechanic"

I'm not upset. This is a poorly designed/flawed mechanic. We're playtesting. The goal of playtesting isnt to ignore the poorly conceived rules if they don't upset me. Its to find them and point them out, and figure out ways to make them better.

 
Still, (IMO) overall, halfing > dwarf > half-orc > human > elf > half-elf.



Are you playing a mage?  Mountain Dwarf

Are you playing a druid?  Mountain Dwarf -> Half-Orc -> Human

Are you playing a monk past level 4?  Mountain Dwarf

Are you going to play a cleric that isn't a war priest?  No, you're playing a war priest.

Are you playing a rogue that won't get past level 3?  Halfling

Did you roll an 18 for your STR?  Half-Orc

Did you roll a 17 for your STR?  Human

Did you roll a 16 for your STR?  Half-Orc

You rolled less than 16 for your STR didn't you?  Mountain Dwarf, you're playing a Mage.



@mikemearls don't quite understand the difference

I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down. - Eric Cartman

Enough chitchat!  Time is candy! - Pinky Pie

Still, (IMO) overall, halfing > dwarf > half-orc > human > elf > half-elf.



Are you playing a mage?  Mountain Dwarf

Are you playing a druid?  Mountain Dwarf -> Half-Orc -> Human

Are you playing a monk past level 4?  Mountain Dwarf

Are you going to play a cleric that isn't a war priest?  No, you're playing a war priest.

Are you playing a rogue that won't get past level 3?  Halfling

Did you roll an 18 for your STR?  Half-Orc

Did you roll a 17 for your STR?  Human

Did you roll a 16 for your STR?  Half-Orc

You rolled less than 16 for your STR didn't you?  Mountain Dwarf, you're playing a Mage.






Can we maybe move this part to a different thread? Or somehow tie it back in?

Sorry, was at lunch. Ill just play some catch-up:

Humans with the standard array are terrible. Humans in point buy are insane(can get 16/16/16/10/10/10, or 16/16/14/14/10/10).

Bumping up your attributes now comes with a very significant tradeoff: you lose feats for doing so. Someone earlier suggested just using "3 of your attribute bonuses", which means you only get one feat, and wont get this all until lvl 19 or so. Most characters never make it that high.



Depends on the class.  If you're playing a fighter, you get a lot of these choice options.




It will never mature. 



You are assuming that there is no other way to increase a stat in the final game, which I find highly unlikely because every edition I've played has ways to increase stats, either from spells, magic items, drinking from a pool, eating a ghostly dinner (CA reference), or whatever.
Sorry, was at lunch. Ill just play some catch-up:

Humans with the standard array are terrible. Humans in point buy are insane(can get 16/16/16/10/10/10, or 16/16/14/14/10/10).

Bumping up your attributes now comes with a very significant tradeoff: you lose feats for doing so. Someone earlier suggested just using "3 of your attribute bonuses", which means you only get one feat, and wont get this all until lvl 19 or so. Most characters never make it that high.



Depends on the class.  If you're playing a fighter, you get a lot of these choice options.




It will never mature. 



You are assuming that there is no other way to increase a stat in the final game, which I find highly unlikely because every edition I've played has ways to increase stats, either from spells, magic items, drinking from a pool, eating a ghostly dinner (CA reference), or whatever.



Yes, it depends on class somewhat, in that fighters/rogues get more options. But the system needs to be balanced for every class. 

Cutting feats in "half" and/or finding ways to not end up with odd scores, imo, is like trying to block the sun with a piece of glass. The root of the problem is still there, and it lies in that odd Ability Scores are useless.

Ideally they should be fixing that and make them useful.


Once again I feel must say the best solution I can picture seems to be having 2 different modifiers:
--> The modifiers we got now (or even better if a little less than those values) would serve combat purpose modifiers like AC, Saves, DCs, To Hit, Damage, etc.

--> A second one would be for all other ability checks, regular ability checks and skill checks (if you're using skills). This one having a 1/+1 ratio. So if you have a 15 Dexterity you make Dex checks at +5.


This way odd scores matter, and raising an ability (even if not very much) becomes relevant for general checks. Maybe you want your fighter to be relatively good at Wisdom-related stuff, so you give him some 13-15 Wis. That's already +3 to +5 on those checks, a very good differential from dumping the stat.


Also, having 2 modifiers isn't such a big deal in that it would over-complicate the system.
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