Sorcerer Shtick: A Schticking TImebomb

Here's my old thread on Sorcerer and how I see them compaired to Warlock

This is a updated more fleshed out version of what I think the Sorcerer could be

The Sorcerer

Level | Attack Bonus | Class Features
1       +1         Choose Origin, Blood Dice (2d6) 
2 +1 Augmentation
3 +2 Unleashed Power 1/day
4 +2 Ability Score Improvement
5 +2 Blood Dice (3d6)
6 +2 Origin Augments
7 +2 Ability Score Improvement
8 +3 Vigor, Blood Dice (5d6)
9 +3 Unleashed Power 2/day
10 +3 Origin Feature
11 +3 Greater Augmention
12 +3 Blood Dice (6d6)
13 +4 Ability Score Improvement
14 +4 Origin Augments
15 +4 Blood dice (7d6)
16 +4 Ability Score Improvement
17 +4 Unleashed Power 3/day
18 +5 Blood dice (9d6)
19 +5 Supreme Aumentation
20 +5 Origin Feature

So light armor and weapons, d8 HD

So the Origin is your subclass. Each Origin come with a Blood Gift, which is a simple at-will ranged or melee attack.
Based off either CHA or STR, the Blood Gift uses Blood Dice for damage; these could be things like a energy blast, breath weapon, gaze, claw or slam.
Then you choose a second Gift to go along with that one.

The Gift Augments are ways to add effects and qualities to your attacks by expending a certain amount of dice.
So if you want your attack may not even do damage it may just have nasty effects.

Power Unleashed is a daily version of each Gift that is much bigger, better and may function as a different kind of ability.
It can also be used to fully agument a Blood Gift whithout expending any Blood Dice.

And the Origin features you get at 1, 10 and 20 are just unique subclass features, most likely with more of a focus on defense and/or utility

Subclasses so far are Dragon Soul, Chaos Soul, Paragon Soul, Cursed Soul, Returned Soul and Unbound Soul.
Some Origins could be done as full melee allowing you to augment normal weapon attacks with the Gift acting as a second attack.
Some Origins could be done full blaster, and some could make for a really good blast and slash gish. 



 

  • Origin: your Origin dictates a great deal of things; In addition to feature, it will determin one of your Gifts you have, it will later provide some Augments unique to the Origin, It will also determin your Power Unleashed ability.


As part of your Origin you will be given one specific Gift and a basic Gift of your choosing. Two different Origins might take the same basic Gift but provide different ways to augment them. Here are some examples of the Gifts:

Basic:

Gift of Might: STR melee attack, requires one free hand. deals STR mod plus Blood Dice in crushing damage.
Gift of Firocity: Weapon attack. deals Blood Dice plus the weapon's damage dice in damage type of weapon.

Origin specific:

Gift of Dragon's Breath: 15ft cone cantrip, CHA vs DEX save. deals Blood Dice in damage, energy type depends on Origin.
Gift of Divine Endurance:
Utility, reaction to being hit, roll any number of your Blood Dice and reduce that from the attack, the amount of dice used in this way are locked from your next turn (see Blood Dice)



  • Blood Dice: This is a growing amount of dice expressing the potency of your Gifts. Whenever you use a Gift you may use as many dice as you have in your pool for damage or Augments; any dice used on Augments is not used for the Gift's default effect. Some Gifts will 'lock' dice from your pool for a turn when used, while dice are locked they do not count towards your pool size and cannot be used on Gifts.

  • Augmention: These are the first Augments made available to Sorcerers, Augments are ways of adding effects and improving qualities of Gifts at the expense of potency. Each Augment has a dice cost to gain it's benefit, the Blood Dice used to pay the cost cannot be used for damage or other costs; whenever you use a Gift you may choose to augment or not, you may also use any number of augments on so long as you have enough dice to pay the costs. An Augment cannot be used more than once on a single use of a Gift, unless the Augment says otherwise. Later on you get the Greater Augmentation with makes better augments available, then again with Supreme Augmentation which are mostly dice locking effects like Life Drains and Stuns. Here is an example of a basic Augment:


Titan's Grip: melee attack or melee cantrip Gifts only. Cost: 2 dice. In addition to any damage, any target hit by this Gift are now grappled by you.



  • Origin Augments: These are a small number of Augments unique to your Origin. Later on you get this feature again with better augments available

  • Power Unleashed: This is a daily ability that changes the default way a Gift works. The Gift becomes better and may function differently, it even have it's own effects. it can be Augmented does use Blooddice to determine it's potency or damage. Alternatively you can spend a use of your Power Unleashed to use a Gift one time without having to lock any dice or pay any augment costs. Here are some examples:


The Dragon Unleashed: Requires Gift of Dragon's Breath. Functions as Gift of Breath but is a 30ft cone and targets who fail their save are knocked prone and pushed 10ft away from you. Half Damage on save

Might Unleashed: Requires Gift of Might. You may lift a careature or object of Huge size or smaller and throw it as an attack. Select a point within 50 ft, all creatures within 10ft of that point including the creature thrown must make a DEX save (vs your STR plus level) or take damage equal to your Blood Dice plus STR mod and be knocked prone. Half Damage and knocked prone on save


  • Vigor: These are two special Augments:


Vigorous Assault: attack Gifts only. Cost: 3 Dice. You can make this attack two times, if you have any movement left for the round you may move in between these attacks.

Channel Vigor: cantrip Gifts only. Cost 1-3 Dice. For each Blood Die spent on cost of this Augment you may add +1 to this Gift's Save DC  



I like the flavor behind this - emphasis on the Sorcerer's innate magical ability is a great way to make it feel unique. Also, with the wilder being part of the sorcerer class, I can finally make this character I've had stuck in my head for ages (selfish hint: make the Wilder's at will stuff melee with a bit of magic, and more powerful stuff fully magic)!

"The troll agrees to join the party. Everyone take a five-minute break." - My DM after forgetting that Clank the Warforged Fighter's second-highest stat was not Constitution, but Charisma.

I think I'm gonna need more detail on the actual abilities to see where you're going with this.
I will give some examples. I'm thinking each Origin will have two Gifts, though some might focus much more on one. one specific Gift and you can choose the second. The Dragon Scion [Dragon Soul] for example I see as being a Gish who mixes AoEs with melee attacks, they might have stuff that looks like this:

Gift of Dragon's Breath (Defualt to Origin): 15ft cone, your choice in damage type. Can augment it to be bigger, do ongoing damage, become a ranged burst and so on.

Gift of Virosity (Chosen from list of basic Gifts): melee attack, add weapon's damage dice and type to blood dice. Can be augmented with a fear effect, a followup claw and so on.

As an Unleashed Power they could have a Breath Unleashed for a much bigger forceful version of Gift of Dragon's Breath. And as features they could have Dragonskin, magic resistance, and Dragonwings as a capstone.
I can really only see them as an alternate spell casting system for mages.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

So...I want sorcerers to be primal/arcane. I want them to use "spellfury" as a resource to boost and enhance their spells. I want them to have primal "rages" ala the 4e barbarian. I'm pretty sure this idea will never gain traction.
So...I want sorcerers to be primal/arcane. I want them to use "spellfury" as a resource to boost and enhance their spells. I want them to have primal "rages" ala the 4e barbarian. I'm pretty sure this idea will never gain traction.

That's... not a bad idea at all.

Lawolf: Run with that and please add to the game we all know you are eventually releasing.
The Godborn [The Paragon Soul] are much more focused on defense. Selecting the Gift of Might would make for a perfect Hercules type bruiser.

Gift of Might: crushing melee attack, add STR mod to damage dice, requires a free hand. Can be augmented to grab, knockback, turn target into projectile, hit two adj targets and so on.

Gift of Immortality: can expend a number of blood dice available next turn to reduce damage of an enemy attack. Can be augmented to negate effects, deal damage to attacker, reduce forced movement, break weapons and so on.

Their features could be things like; to treat an ability score as much higher a number of times per day, no aging, there also could be some immunities, and maybe as a capstone ability they can come back from 0 HP 1/day

Their Power Unleashed (Endurance Unleashed) could be they get their Blood Dice in temporary HP or maybe something depending on what race you are
That's pretty herculean and not necessarily a general godborn set of powers.

The big issue I'm having is that I don't see how the progression in the first post translates into ... well anything, you're so vague and disconnected I can't tell whats' up.
I would rather just focus on the super strength archetype. I recall when Cleric tried to cover Hercules while trying to cover all the other gods, it was not that great.

I will explain it better when I have time. But basically it's like Expertise Dice from the first Fighter they did.
Ok, just wouldn't call it god born is all, Titan seems more in line.

 
Huh... I don't think that there needs to be the specific power source labels on the subclasses. Also, I'm not familiar with the Wilder. Is that like the 4e Wild Sorcerer? If not, I think there should be a subclass like that Sorcerer. Also, while Godborn sounds interesting, it might fit better under the Cleric. 

Now. Your idea is interesting. So it would be cantrip-type deal based on subclasses, with dice you can augment based on subclasses, and a daily power based on subclasses? That's interesting... I have a primarily at-will Sorcerer in my sig, with incredible versatility and a daily surge, with subclasses covering other features. It only has 3 subclasses right now, but I think I'll add some more after looking at these ideas. 
Right now It's depending very heavy on subclass. Not sure if that's a bad thing.

I only put the power source thing there to say that it's all going to be arcane flavored. And I haven't got all the subclasses figured out yet but I do plan on having a Chaos/Wild magic user
Ok, just wouldn't call it god born is all, Titan seems more in line.



This comment made me realize I was being a little to specific on my archetypes. So I went back and edited some stuff, opened up the class more to let you be more creative with augments.

I changed the second post into a description of the progression, to try to explain things more clearly.  
So...I want sorcerers to be primal/arcane. I want them to use "spellfury" as a resource to boost and enhance their spells. I want them to have primal "rages" ala the 4e barbarian. I'm pretty sure this idea will never gain traction.



I would think this would be an awesome sorcerer subclass.  

My Blog which includes my Hobby Award Winning articles.

So...I want sorcerers to be primal/arcane. I want them to use "spellfury" as a resource to boost and enhance their spells. I want them to have primal "rages" ala the 4e barbarian. I'm pretty sure this idea will never gain traction.



I would think this would be an awesome sorcerer subclass.  

+1
So...I want sorcerers to be primal/arcane. I want them to use "spellfury" as a resource to boost and enhance their spells. I want them to have primal "rages" ala the 4e barbarian. I'm pretty sure this idea will never gain traction.



I would think this would be an awesome sorcerer subclass.  

+1

It is a cool idea. Something I thought up as a Druid subclass a little while back.

I really don't see why WotC is leaning towards making Sorcerer a subclass of Mage; it seems like such a waste of what could be a class with interesting mechanics, and thematically it would be a huge HUGE let down.

If they make Sorcerer a tratition of wizardry doe that mean Sorcerers will be INT based? 
I really don't see why WotC is leaning towards making Sorcerer a subclass of Mage; it seems like such a waste of what could be a class with interesting mechanics, and thematically it would be a huge HUGE let down.

The 3e sorcerer suffered from being too much like the 3e Wizard, mainly becaused they used the same spell list, with just a different casting method (spontaneous vs Vancian).  In 5e, all casters use a system that combines the best aspects of spontaneous and Vancian, so there's not exactly mechanical space for the Sorcerer as a class that resembles the 3e Sorcerer.   In 4e, the Sorcerer didn't resemble the wizard much at all, it was defined by it's source & role.  5e has neither, so, again, no design space to stick the sorcerer in.

As a sub-class, the Sorcerer could just be an instinctive or 'primitive' version of the Mage that doesn't use books to learn spells, but is otherwise a Mage, just like the Wizard.  Probably why they changed 'Wizard' to 'Mage,' come to think of it.

If they make Sorcerer a tratition of wizardry doe that mean Sorcerers will be INT based? 

Changing the caster stat wouldn't be too complicated.

 

 

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I really don't see why WotC is leaning towards making Sorcerer a subclass of Mage; it seems like such a waste of what could be a class with interesting mechanics, and thematically it would be a huge HUGE let down.

If they make Sorcerer a tratition of wizardry doe that mean Sorcerers will be INT based? 



Who really knows.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Sorcerer tradition allowed for using Charisma instead of Intelligence, which kinda sucks.  But honestly, the D&D Sorcerer is a glorified subclass at best.  The Mage as a super-class with the Wizard and the Sorcerer underneath it makes pretty good sense to me.
Personally I see the sorcerer taking the role of all innate spellcaster.

The key difference between a sorcerer and a cleric or wizard are.



  • Magic ability is Charisma

  • Lower overall versatily

  • More focused at specialy.

  • Always ready at specialty.


Meaning a damage sorcerer is a better evoker than evoker mage or a light cleric. A favored soul sorcerer is a better healer than a life cleric. A summoner socrerer is a better conjuerer than a conjurer mage or druid.


But that's all they can do.


Wizards are jack of all trades, master of one.


Sorcerers are sucks at all trades but one. But oh boy are they good at it.




  1. Prepare 1 + 1/2 sorcer level spells a day

  2. I bonus spell a day

  3. Recover spells faster than mages, druids, and clerics

  4. Cast with Charisma

  5. Subclasses


    1. Dragon sorcerer (damage)

    2. Favored soul (healing)

    3. Fey sorcerer (charms and illusion)

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

The 3e sorcerer suffered from being too much like the 3e Wizard, mainly becaused they used the same spell list, with just a different casting method (spontaneous vs Vancian).  In 5e, all casters use a system that combines the best aspects of spontaneous and Vancian, so there's not exactly mechanical space for the Sorcerer as a class that resembles the 3e Sorcerer.

I understand that, but 'spells' are just one way of mechanically representing the use of magic; this is be an opportunity to have alternative forms of magic yet for some reason many people completely define the Sorcerer as 'the class that was similar to Wizard 10 years ago' 
In 4e, the Sorcerer didn't resemble the wizard much at all, it was defined by it's source & role.  5e has neither, so, again, no design space to stick the sorcerer in.

Every class in 4e was defined by it's source & role, so that's not an excuse. I think 4e did an okay job at showing that Sorcerer could be something unique and incorporate more than just dragons.

The 3e sorcerer suffered from being too much like the 3e Wizard, mainly becaused they used the same spell list, with just a different casting method (spontaneous vs Vancian).  In 5e, all casters use a system that combines the best aspects of spontaneous and Vancian, so there's not exactly mechanical space for the Sorcerer as a class that resembles the 3e Sorcerer.

I understand that, but 'spells' are just one way of mechanically representing the use of magic; this is be an opportunity to have alternative forms of magic yet for some reason many people completely define the Sorcerer as 'the class that was similar to Wizard 10 years ago'

So far, in the playtest, all casters use the same casting system and at least some of the same spells.  It's an inefficient use of resources to 're-invent the wheel' by, say, giving wizards a 'fireball spell' and giving sorcerers a 'firesphere invokation' or something.  4e had enough resources thrown at it to do that sort of thing for the sake of differentiating AEDU classes, 5e, AFAICT, doesn't have that luxury.  It's also trying to be modular, and just being able 'snap in' a different casting mechanic, but use the same spell lists, is in line with that goal.  FWIW.

In 4e, the Sorcerer didn't resemble the wizard much at all, it was defined by it's source & role.  5e has neither, so, again, no design space to stick the sorcerer in.

Every class in 4e was defined by it's source & role, so that's not an excuse. I think 4e did an okay job at showing that Sorcerer could be something unique and incorporate more than just dragons.

Sure it is:  it's an excuse to ignore how any/every class was handled in 4e.

 

 

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Not only in this thread but in some of the others; there seems to be a fairly common notion that all the Sorcerer is, the sole thing that defines it, is that before 4E it did what the Wizard did but slightly different.

If somebody's incapable of seeing the Sorcerer as anything other than a alternative way of doing what Wizards do, then they seriously lack imagination. Yes we all know that 7 years ago it was pretty much just a subclass, but why should that matter now?

What I have tried to illustrate here with this thread is that Sorcerer, just as any other class, should be approached firstly from the point of view of flavor and archetype and then have mechanics that best represent that flavor, and there should be an effort to make it something unique as apposed to just a variant of something that already exists.

Do I have to rename the class in order for people to get it through their head that spells and the spellcasting mechanic has nothing to do with what archetypes I'm trying to create here?
I think people do get caught up on the name way too easily.

Maybe you should call this class somethign else?
So I renamed the god born into Paragon Soul. I wanted it to encompass racial paragons and demigods

I also changed the way the class works a bit making it so your origin only picks one Gift and you pick the other, so you have a lot more customization.

 
For sorcerer I have thought the idea of "points of bloodline", like points of mutation of d20 Future and the points of dammation of prestige class "demonbinder" from "drows of undedark". The PC could spent points of bloodline to "buy" monster mutations like wings, claws, breath attack...

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

If somebody's incapable of seeing the Sorcerer as anything other than a alternative way of doing what Wizards do, then they seriously lack imagination.

Not really.  What wizards do is /anything/.  Anything any magic-using character in any genre or medium ever did becomes a wizard spell.  (OK, except healing, for Clerical protection racket reasons.)  There is litterally nothing left for an arcane caster to do except 'what a wizard can already do but sooner/later/differently.'
Yes we all know that 7 years ago it was pretty much just a subclass, but why should that matter now?

Because 5e is all about the past.  It's out to re-capture what D&D was in the 80s:  sellling.

 

 

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Spells are not the entirety of magic. Bigby's crushing hand is not a intrinsic aspect of magic, it's not a elemental force to be channeled, it's formula, it's programed code, an invention of a Wizard named Bigby.

You think that a Sorcerer born with the ability to be a Wizard? I think it should be the other way around; the wizard should be about casting spells, spells are a formula that is designed to recreate magical phenomena. The Wizard learns to bring function and form to the raw abstract force that Sorcerer's tap into.


The Wizard is the scientist who observes the wind and then invents the fan, that is why Spells work so well for their archetype. But not all magic should be formulaic, that would be boring.
Not only in this thread but in some of the others; there seems to be a fairly common notion that all the Sorcerer is, the sole thing that defines it, is that before 4E it did what the Wizard did but slightly different.

If somebody's incapable of seeing the Sorcerer as anything other than a alternative way of doing what Wizards do, then they seriously lack imagination. Yes we all know that 7 years ago it was pretty much just a subclass, but why should that matter now?

What I have tried to illustrate here with this thread is that Sorcerer, just as any other class, should be approached firstly from the point of view of flavor and archetype and then have mechanics that best represent that flavor, and there should be an effort to make it something unique as apposed to just a variant of something that already exists.

Do I have to rename the class in order for people to get it through their head that spells and the spellcasting mechanic has nothing to do with what archetypes I'm trying to create here?


EXACTLY! This sums up my viewpoint exactly. I would actually prefer something even more freeform than what you described, though... Like your base power does absolutely nothing, but your augmentation is at-will and can add numerous effects. But this would be fine. It's actually easier than my version, too. 
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