Thoughts on Half-Orc Thief with Charger Feat?

I mean, thematically, its just a terrible character, but what do you think of the power level of a Half-Orc rogue, thief subclass, and the charger feat? @ lvl 4, you're swinging a 2h longsword for 1D10+9 damage(@ 18 str) on a charge, + sneak attack if you have a teammate flanking, and with the thief ability to disengage as a second action, you can basically just charge in, swing, and charge out every turn...
Other feats to take later would be mobile, great weapon master(allowing you to bump up to 1D12+1D6+14 damage on a power strike charge with sneak attack active). 
Low AC and low HP = squishy.  The martial equivilant of a glass cannon I suppose.
Low AC and low HP = squishy.  The martial equivilant of a glass cannon I suppose.



16 AC(can still get 14 dex and con). Plenty of room to take heavy armor mastery if needed as well.

I was thinking something along the lines of heavy armor mastery, alert, great weapon mastery, mobile, charger, and +2 strength. 
Eh, I'm still not sold on character builds that take up to level 15 or higher to get them where they are actually effective.  I suppose that's fine for people who want to start off at that high level and play epic characters, but most everyone I know has retired and/or moved on to different adventures and characters by the low teens.

Besides, what are you going to do for the dozens of gaming sessions it takes you to get that build to work if you don't start that high?  I don't know many players that would hamstring themselves for 90% of their game play time just so they were super badass for the final 10%.

Either way, I think D&D is being designed for the "sweet spot" that most players will spend 90% of their time: level 4-14 or so.
Eh, I'm still not sold on character builds that take up to level 15 or higher to get them where you want.  I suppose that's fine for people who want to start off at that high level and play epic characters, but most everyone I know has retired and/or moved on to different adventures and characters by the low teens.

Besides, what are you going to do for the dozens of gaming sessions it takes you to get that build to work if you don't start that high?  I don't know many players that would hamstring themselves for 90% of their game play time just so they were super badass for the final 10%.

Either way, I think D&D is being designed for the "sweet spot" that most players will spend 90% of their time: level 4-14 or so.




At lvl 4, you have 18 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 wis, 10 int, 10 cha. 16 AC, +5 to hit, and can charge 30' with a 2h longsword for 1D10+9 damage, than disengage and take a full 30' move away to do it again next turn, or move to another target.
Eh, I'm still not sold on character builds that take up to level 15 or higher to get them where you want.  I suppose that's fine for people who want to start off at that high level and play epic characters, but most everyone I know has retired and/or moved on to different adventures and characters by the low teens.

Besides, what are you going to do for the dozens of gaming sessions it takes you to get that build to work if you don't start that high?  I don't know many players that would hamstring themselves for 90% of their game play time just so they were super badass for the final 10%.

Either way, I think D&D is being designed for the "sweet spot" that most players will spend 90% of their time: level 4-14 or so.




At lvl 4, you have 18 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 wis, 10 int, 10 cha. 16 AC, +5 to hit, and can charge 30' with a 2h longsword for 1D10+9 damage, than disengage and take a full 30' move away to do it again next turn, or move to another target.




How do you figure?  At level 4 you only get one feat choice.  You don't get charger and mobile.  I'm assuming you're talking about mobile.  And how do you get the +9 damage?  If you have an ally next to your target who hasn't gone yet, you get +1d6 for sneak attack, but I don't think that's what you meant.

Also, at 4th level you still only have 24 hit points.  All it takes is one "ready action" by your opponent, and you're toast.  Or an opponent with ranged attacks.
No, you take charger. 30' movement. A thief can disengage for free as a second action after combat. charger gives +5 damage, 18 strength gives +4 for +9. 
No, you take charger. 30' movement. A thief can disengage for free as a second action after combat. charger gives +5 damage, 18 strength gives +4 for +9. 



Ah.  disengage is 1/2 movement.  So if you wanted to avoid an AoO, you could only move back 15'.
"Cunning Action Your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly, so you can take a second action on each of your turns. This action can be used only to disengage, hide, or hustle."

18 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 10 cha. 16 AC, +2 initiative, +5 to hit, +4 to damage(+9 if charging)

Scale Mail(16 AC), longsword(2handed).

So with the charger feat, you can charge  up to your speed, make 1 attack, if it hits, you deal 1D10+9 damage, and then with cunning action you can use your second action to disengage and move up to your speed away without provoking an AoO. Next turn you can do it to that one again, or move to another person.

This is all at lvl 4. After that, you can add things like mobile(10' more movement), great weapon master(opens up the 1d12/2d6 great weapons, and lets you power attack bumping the charge to 1D12+14 damage), alert for more initiative, heavy armor mastery to push up to 18 ac, and fit in a +2 strength bump. 
Whoops, didn't see that part. Thanks for correcting me. Still, charging in 30 and out 15 is not bad. Can still charge them every turn, and if they do come back at you, they take an AoO and you can disengage using your cunning action, than charge back at them...
Whoops, didn't see that part. Thanks for correcting me. Still, charging in 30 and out 15 is not bad. Can still charge them every turn, and if they do come back at you, they take an AoO and you can disengage using your cunning action, than charge back at them...



IIRC, you only provote an AoO when you leave the threat range of a target, not when you enter.  Therefore, the monster moving 15' to the thief wouldn't provoke one.  And at 24 hit points, the rogue won't last very long.  Not against a level 4 fighter for instance.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to poo poo your build, even if it seems to be coming across as such.  It's not bad at all.  IMO, a good system will allow you to play the archetype you want, even if it may be a bit...unusual, without being totally worthless.  A half orc rogue charger does have benefits.  In my mind's eye, I think "thug" when I see that combination.
Whoops, didn't see that part. Thanks for correcting me. Still, charging in 30 and out 15 is not bad. Can still charge them every turn, and if they do come back at you, they take an AoO and you can disengage using your cunning action, than charge back at them...



IIRC, you only provote an AoO when you leave the threat range of a target, not when you enter.  Therefore, the monster moving 15' to the thief wouldn't provoke one.  And at 24 hit points, the rogue won't last very long.  Not against a level 4 fighter for instance.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to poo poo your build, even if it seems to be coming across as such.  It's not bad at all.  IMO, a good system will allow you to play the archetype you want, even if it may be a bit...unusual, without being totally worthless.  A half orc rogue charger does have benefits.  In my mind's eye, I think "thug" when I see that combination.



But still has 16AC. He won't be getting hit often, and hes super mobile. You're probably right about the AoO, I always forget about what does and doesnt trigger them. 

I don't mind the discourse, I was looking for other peoples onpinions I just don't think hes as squishy as you think he is, due to the decently high AC... 
Yeah, in a white room he has too much squishy.

In an actual setting with walls, obstacles, and allies, this is viable & even fun.
Level 4 gladiator.  +4 TH for strength, +3 TH for level.  Dual wielder.  That +7 bonus means he hits about half the time.

In one round, he can get two attacks in, one at 1d8+4 and the other at 1d6 (say light weapon).  Odds are that one of those is going to hit, which triggers dirty trick.  He is going to beat your wis modifier obviously, which gives him advantage on his next attack.  Which is done with action surge.

This is all in the same round on his turn.  Damage potential is 2d8+8 plus 2d6, which is higher than 1d10+9.  Combine that with his second wind, equal or higher AC, and twice the HP of the rogue, and things don't look good for the rogue.

And if you go to level 5?  The fighter gets an additional attack.

so yeah, the rogue charger is effective, but as expected, is very situational and dependant on many factors to really be effective.
Level 4 gladiator.  +4 TH for strength, +3 TH for level.  Dual wielder.  That +7 bonus means he hits about half the time.

In one round, he can get two attacks in, one at 1d8+4 and the other at 1d6 (say light weapon).  Odds are that one of those is going to hit, which triggers dirty trick.  He is going to beat your wis modifier obviously, which gives him advantage on his next attack.  Which is done with action surge.

This is all in the same round on his turn.  Damage potential is 2d8+8 plus 2d6, which is higher than 1d10+9.  Combine that with his second wind, equal or higher AC, and twice the HP of the rogue, and things don't look good for the rogue.

And if you go to level 5?  The fighter gets an additional attack.

so yeah, the rogue charger is effective, but as expected, is very situational and dependant on many factors to really be effective.



He only has higher AC if he uses a shield. Only way possible at lvl 4. And they only get one action surge per encounter. I can charge every single turn. 

Also, DND is never balanced against class vs class really, its mostly against monsters. Your fighter has a higher nova, but the thief can push 1D10+9 every turn at lvl 4.  
I think I have to agree wth others here. I'm definitely fine with the amount of power it has as of 4th level. I also think the power it gets to at the top levels is fine as well. Though I would ask how many feats a rogue gets. Just because the list of good ones for the build seems longer than it sould be. Given they have 4 feats (don't have a packet here they could have more I'm not 100% on this): charger, mobile, great weapon master, heavy armor master seems like a good combo for them (especially considering that means no stat increases). However that takes till 16th level to get all of that together. So until then he will need a tactical warior to help keep the flak off of him (seems the perfect flanking partner as well). However having a halbred barbarian polearm master to bounce to would also be awesome. Basically this guy blends in perfect with the three man martial half orc team of: rogue, fighter, and barbarian.
Rogues get 6. 4, 7, 10, 14,17, and 19
I don't see the big deal. Pretty much every other class is more combat effective. Every other class except the wizard is more survivable. What is the issue?
So by level 10, having something like charger, great weapon master, and mobile, will let them charge 40 for 1D10+14 on a power attack, and then disengage 20. And be up to 17 ac. Again, HP is low, but AC is on the high end, and the mobility means they won't be just standing toe to toe every round. If the enemy wants to hit him back at all, hes going to have to chase him around.
That's ill. I'm still fine with this happening by 14th, Id likely spend the other two on stat increases probably strength and con or possibly just con because that dr is useful.

Though I will say I wouldn't mind seeing a thug subclass that was a bit more geared towards this guy's predelictions outside of combat as well. I'm definitely seeing this guy less as a thief and more as a thug.
He only has higher AC if he uses a shield. Only way possible at lvl 4. And they only get one action surge per encounter. I can charge every single turn. 
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At level 4, he very easily would have splint mail (AC17) +1 for dual weilding for AC18.

When you've only got 24 hit points, the fighter will only need one round of action surge ;)  The second round just a normal attack could probably finish him off (which would also be at advantage because he still as ED left for dirty trick)
Sounds like a fun build. Not overpowered because of his squishyness, but a really good striker to take out high-priority units.
The Oberoni fallacy only applies to broken rules, not rules you don't like. If a rule you don't like can be easily ignored, it should exist in the game for those who will enjoy it.
I don't see the big deal. Pretty much every other class is more combat effective. Every other class except the wizard is more survivable. What is the issue?



Not really an issue. I don't think its OP, just seemed like a pretty strong build. High AC, high mobility, the ability to use the +5 damage for charge every single turn without provoking any AoO

I don't think every other class is more effective, either. 1D10+9 damage around is 14 DPR average on lvl 4, without using any abilitys. Factor that you can use that charge to move in and deal big damage strikes to flanked targets, which adds in sneak attack damage, and you can get pretty consistent, high DPR without using any sort of abilities that require a short rest.
He only has higher AC if he uses a shield. Only way possible at lvl 4. And they only get one action surge per encounter. I can charge every single turn. 
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At level 4, he very easily would have splint mail (AC17) +1 for dual weilding for AC18.

When you've only got 24 hit points, the fighter will only need one round of action surge ;)  The second round just a normal attack could probably finish him off (which would also be at advantage because he still as ED left for dirty trick)



Sure, the rogue has dragon mail then, also at 17 ac, and if the fighter has DW feat, than it doesnt have the charge or power attack feat. So the rogue will push out higher DPR on average 1D8 + 1D 6 + 4 will average 11 dpr @ 4, 1d10+9 will average 14 dpr. 

And please stop trying to say which class can kill the other faster. Thats never how balance in DND has been measured.  
I think I have to agree. This is a pretty strong build especially in a team work scenario.
Sounds like a fun build. Not overpowered because of his squishyness, but a really good striker to take out high-priority units.



It does sound like a fun build.  The fact that an unusual build is still mechanically viable tells me that maybe, just maybe, Next will be OK ;)
I don't think it is broken effective combination but not broken.

I like the idea of a level 4 Strength Rogue with Polearm Master.  He gets two attacks on his turn to get sneak attack in, then can disengage and if someone engages him he gets another attack and another sneak attack.

So glaive +5 to hit d10+4 and a +5 to hit d4 damage +1d6 sneak attack. Disengage then when someone gets close another +5 to hit d10+4 +1d6.  Just need to make sure you you are always next to another melee ally or have advantage.
 

Remember this is a public forum where people express their opinions assume there is a “In my humble opinion” in front of every post especially mine.  

 

Things you should check out because they are cool, like bow-ties and fezzes.

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http://donjon.bin.sh/  Donjon has random treasure, maps, pick pocket results, etc.. for every edition of D&D.


Sure, the rogue has dragon mail then, also at 17 ac, and if the fighter has DW feat, than it doesnt have the charge or power attack feat. So the rogue will push out higher DPR on average 1D8 + 1D 6 + 4 will average 11 dpr @ 4, 1d10+9 will average 14 dpr. 



I never factored charge or power attack.  A long sword in one hand and a short sword in the other is 1d8+4 and 1d6 for a standard attack.  Since statistically at least one of those is going to hit, dirty trick is triggered, which is used to grant advantage on his action surge.

So in one round, that's 2d8+8 plus 2d6 potential damage.  That's up to 36 points of damage in one round potential.  Even on a standard attack, the average of 1d8+4+1d6 is 12 against the rogue's 14.5.  The rogue has a bit higher initially, but the fighter is going to be hitting more often.  net result is the fighter is probably doing more average damage per round.  As it should be, since rogues have other abilities.  Go up one level to level 5, and the fighter also gets another attack.


And please stop trying to say which class can kill the other faster. Thats never how balance in DND has been measured.  



Of course it's not.  It was just a thought process through a scenario sparked by a rogue just charging in, hitting, and disengaging.  Depending on his opponent, they may work well.  Or it may not.

Sure, the rogue has dragon mail then, also at 17 ac, and if the fighter has DW feat, than it doesnt have the charge or power attack feat. So the rogue will push out higher DPR on average 1D8 + 1D 6 + 4 will average 11 dpr @ 4, 1d10+9 will average 14 dpr. 



I never factored charge or power attack.  A long sword in one hand and a short sword in the other is 1d8+4 and 1d6 for a standard attack.  Since statistically at least one of those is going to hit, dirty trick is triggered, which is used to grant advantage on his action surge.

So in one round, that's 2d8+8 plus 2d6 potential damage.  That's up to 36 points of damage in one round potential.  Even on a standard attack, the average of 1d8+4+1d6 is 12 against the rogue's 14.5.  The rogue has a bit higher initially, but the fighter is going to be hitting more often.  net result is the fighter is probably doing more average damage per round.  As it should be, since rogues have other abilities.  Go up one level to level 5, and the fighter also gets another attack.


And please stop trying to say which class can kill the other faster. Thats never how balance in DND has been measured.  



Of course it's not.  It was just a thought process through a scenario sparked by a rogue just charging in, hitting, and disengaging.  Depending on his opponent, they may work well.  Or it may not.



Yes, the fighter has high nova if he burns all his encounter abilities. Not arguing that at all. And I like the discourse we have going here, im learning more about fighters nova potential. 

In terms of  vanilla DPR, the rogue will have slightly higher at lvl 4, the same AC, lots less HP, lots more mobility. 5 is a huge level for fighters, but rogues get a huge defensive boost(evasion is A-MAZE-ING), and a second sneak attack die. Pretty reasonable for the rogue to trigger sneak attack when it can charge around the battlefield engaging any target it wants. 

The worst part about the character is just...thematically, its terrible. Hes a giant half orc "thief" that pretty much can't reasonably sneak anywhere or steal anything, and he just runs around the battlefield hitting things as hard as he can. 
The only reason the build really popped into my head was I saw the synergy between charge and cunning action, which basically makes charge a +5DPR increase every round.

With great weapon mastery, mobile, and charge, a rogue can do 1D12+14 damage every single round, charging 40'disengaging 20'. And they can add in sneak attack damage to that. It gives rogues some pretty solid damage options, and the speed/mobility helps their low HP a lot. 
And please stop trying to say which class can kill the other faster. Thats never how balance in DND has been measured.  



If, and it is a big if, combat remains on the average a few rounds (my experience is up to 4) for most encounters, than burst is far more important that DPR.  You need to look at max damage and the ability to do follow on attacks, such as cleave, and judge from there.
The only reason the build really popped into my head was I saw the synergy between charge and cunning action, which basically makes charge a +5DPR increase every round.

With great weapon mastery, mobile, and charge, a rogue can do 1D12+14 damage every single round, charging 40'disengaging 20'. And they can add in sneak attack damage to that. It gives rogues some pretty solid damage options, and the speed/mobility helps their low HP a lot. 



I don't disagree at all.  Sounds like a neat build.
Actually there are some class monsters in the playtest so it can be useful to know.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

What excites me is this is the first actual interesting combination ive found. Theres not a lot of real options out there yet, but this is the first real mix and matching ive been able to do.

Alternatively, take less damage, but make him a halfling. Now you can charge through squares occupied by people larger than you. I can stand behind our fighter, charge through him, hit you for 1D10+8, and then disengage back behind the fighter. 
Hey can a charging person cleave? Like if I charge then kill something with that action can I cleave then run away? Also what is the sneak attack damage at say 4th, 14th and 20th level (feel free to show in xdy notation)?
Hey can a charging person cleave? Like if I charge then kill something with that action can I cleave then run away? Also what is the sneak attack damage at say 4th, 14th and 20th level (feel free to show in xdy notation)?



Sneak attack is:

1-4: 1D6
5-7: 2D6
8-10: 3D6
11-13: 4D6
14-16: 5D6
17-19: 6D6
20: 7D6

And if you mean cleave based on the great weapon master feat, I dont see why not. Charge in, kill one, cleave into other, and then disengage.
Also, the more I think of the halfling , the more awesome it could be. Lower damage for sure, but way easier time applying sneak attack damage. If your teammate is engaged in melee, you can charge through both your teammate and the enemy, end up behind, and hit for your 1D10+9+XD6, and then disengage away through them again. Enemy would have to disgenage from your teammate, and then move through them to get to you.
Hey can a charging person cleave? Like if I charge then kill something with that action can I cleave then run away? Also what is the sneak attack damage at say 4th, 14th and 20th level (feel free to show in xdy notation)?



Cleave gives you a free attack as part of your action. But charge says once the attack is resolved (not the action), your turn ends. I don't think it is intentional, but by RAW your turn ends after your single attack from charge. Even if you drop a foe, your turn immediately ends.

So each turn would look like this.

Action 1 (hustle, hide, or disengage only)
Move
Action 2 (charge)
Call it the ninja sprint build.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

How often can you sneak attack?

Also is movement allowed between kill and cleave?

Could you move 20 charge a flanked guy sneak attack and kill him. walk another 20 to cleave another flanked guy (to get sneak attac again) then disengage?

It's hyper situational but is it possible?
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