Wandering Monsters: Touched by a Devil (or Demon)

Wandering Monsters
Touched by a Devil (or Demon)

By James Wyatt

Explore cambions, draegloths, and tieflings in this week’s Wandering Monsters article. We’re curious to see how you feel about those who have a touch of the devil or demon about them.

Talk about this column here.

Fairest of Them All

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Glad to see the Planescape-style Tiefling is back.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I'm glad to hear that 4e-style tieflings won't be going the way of the dodo ;). 
/\ Art
I'm glad to hear that 4e-style tieflings won't be going the way of the dodo ;). 


Me too.  I still want them around for those who prefer them.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Yes! To Tieflings and Cambions.

Personally, the way the old editions did Tieflings, with various looks and such, I think it's entirely too easy to reconcile their origins with how 4E chose to present them. I mean, Elves have had how many subraces now? Tieflings can handle 2 or 3.

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of splitting up the party, sticking appendages in the mouth of a leering green devil face, accepting a dinner invitation from bugbears, storming the feast hall of a hill giant steading, angering a dragon of any variety, or saying yes when the DM asks, "Are you really sure?"

* A possible origin of race hellbreed race (Fiendish Codex II) could be born in the realm of Androlynne, in the Abyss, or humans who died in the layer of Vasallah, when they noticed it was a trap. 

 www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/200...

* I have a question. What if a outsider get´s the template half-fiendish? 

* Cambions are the first generation of mixture blood, and tielflings are a generation after or more of cambion ancestor, with weaker infernal legacy, aren´t they?

* Draegloths would be cool monster classes. Maybe a option could be a "prestige class" where a drow become half-demon. 

* I like manes (the fat zombie-like dwarfs) and lemures like no-totally-mindless companions or magic pets for warlocks. 

 

Hello, boys!! I am a lemure, but today the cosmety surgery does mircales, does´t it? 



I am not a lemure but a slime girl. If you want slime-girls-like lemures, only you have to ask to WotC.

PC summoning slime-girl-like lemures as companions/magic pets would be really "friky", woudln´t it be? 

(Excuse my little almost off-topic). 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Personally I think the half-devils need to be a specific template, as befits spawn of the caste based hells. 

The Demon-spawn however should be more malleable and chaotic, special breeds such as the dreagloth should be the rule rather than the exception, with even 'normal' demon-spawn incorporating some of the abyss's general discordancy.
I found the Cambion, Draegloth and Tiefling's description hitting the mark. 

I like the way the Cambions was reconciled under one name.

I prefer the 2E Planescape Tiefling to the 4E one, but i'm glad they'll make room for other Tiefling outlook as well as the 4E one and be all inclusive.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Hooray for old-school tieflings!

 

Danny

I asked this on the main site, but I will ask it here as well:  Are tieflings and cambions automatically warlocks (if 5e warlocks are going to be like 4e warlocks) or sorcerers (if sorcerer is the default for "has a little magic in the genes")?
Mmm.... yummy tieflings....    So, so glad to see them making an appearance finally.    I like the idea of combining the fiend-touched races all under one umbrella.  Fey'ri, hellborn, succubus child... it flows well with how the subrace are handled with other races.



Though, I must admit to being a touch unsure about the cambions.    I would like to see some definitive differences between devils and demons made.    To this day, I still have people asking, in game and out, what the difference between the two is.    Putting half-devils and half-demons under the same title would only exaggerate that issue, I fear. 
I asked this on the main site, but I will ask it here as well:  Are tieflings and cambions automatically warlocks (if 5e warlocks are going to be like 4e warlocks) or sorcerers (if sorcerer is the default for "has a little magic in the genes")?

I doubt it.

Danny

I'm just going to say: I don't feel like these tieflings are inclusive enough to the 4e version. You could make proper support for 4th edition setting, and make the classic 4e tieflings appear there, but you would also had to use a different cosmology than the new, "compromised" cosmology if there is proper support for 4e setting and lore.
Yeah, Planescape tieflings!  That said, with the inclusion of other tieflings (maybe under new name to avoid confusion?), this is a sign that Nerath/the PoL setting will get some support in the futre.  Yay, inclusivity!

Crazed undead horror posing as a noble and heroic forum poster!

 

 

Some good pointers for the fellow hobbyist!:

  • KEEP D&D ALIVE, END EDITION WARS!
  • RESPECT PEOPLES' PREFERENCES
  • JUST ENJOY THE GAME!
Yeah, Planescape tieflings!  That said, with the inclusion of other tieflings (maybe under new name to avoid confusion?), this is a sign that Nerath/the PoL setting will get some support in the futre.  Yay, inclusivity!




As I already said, proper support for 4th edition lore and setting is a must have for me. But with recent data that we won, I'm not so sure that we (fans of PoL/Nerath) will have proper support for the setting. By the way, changing cosmology just to fit Planescape (another setting) cosmology is not proper support.
I know that the big tent of 5e needs to have both, but it would be a lot cleaner if the 4e tieflings had not used the same name as the ones in Planescape.  It feels a bit like trying to lump Kender in with Halflings.
Glad to see the Planescape-style Tiefling is back.




I'm glad to hear that 4e-style tieflings won't be going the way of the dodo ;). 





I'm just glad I can see these two quotes side by side.
Yeah, Planescape tieflings!  That said, with the inclusion of other tieflings (maybe under new name to avoid confusion?), this is a sign that Nerath/the PoL setting will get some support in the futre.  Yay, inclusivity!




As I already said, proper support for 4th edition lore and setting is a must have for me. But with recent data that we won, I'm not so sure that we (fans of PoL/Nerath) will have proper support for the setting. By the way, changing cosmology just to fit Planescape (another setting) cosmology is not proper support.



What I meant (and probably didn't clarify) is a PoL campaign setting, which would imply full support (and likely independent cosmology a la World Axis.)  Personally, I'd rather it be an independent world.  I wasn't too keen on it being the more or less core (Yes, I'm one of those who was less than pleased with the PoL'ified Realms.)  Just look at how 3e Greyhawk invaded other settings...  But I digress, seeing Nentir Vale and beyond as an independent entity would be great for it!  I want to see it become something akin to the Known World (or "pre-Mystara" if you prefer)

Crazed undead horror posing as a noble and heroic forum poster!

 

 

Some good pointers for the fellow hobbyist!:

  • KEEP D&D ALIVE, END EDITION WARS!
  • RESPECT PEOPLES' PREFERENCES
  • JUST ENJOY THE GAME!
I know that the big tent of 5e needs to have both, but it would be a lot cleaner if the 4e tieflings had not used the same name as the ones in Planescape.  It feels a bit like trying to lump Kender in with Halflings.

Sub-races.

Every tiefling can exist, be a tielfing, and be different. 

guides
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my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'd love if the PC version of the tiefling gave you the option to roll on a randomized chart to determine their fiendish traits like in older editions.
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I asked this on the main site, but I will ask it here as well:  Are tieflings and cambions automatically warlocks (if 5e warlocks are going to be like 4e warlocks) or sorcerers (if sorcerer is the default for "has a little magic in the genes")?

I doubt it.


Let me rephrase the issue.  If the sorcerer's gig is they get powers because of "magical ancestory", and you have tieflings and cambions that have "magical ancestory", then logically, either all  tieflings and cambions are sorcerers, or sorcerers really get their power from something other than or in addition to "magical background."  So, I am thinking what other factor could trigger the "sorcerer gene."  It seems to me that we could resolve many D&D disputes if we said that living in a high magic environment triggered it. 

How does that solve D&D disputes?  First a little natural selection.  If magic use is seen as a social advancement, then the first generation sorcerer is likely to pass on those genes (that charisma score has to count for something).  Unless sorcerers are a new phenomenon (last 500 years), it is likely that most everyone has a little magic in their genes.  That includes the martial characters hanging around with casters as they ransack dungeons.  D&D could make a feat (say 11th level to get) that says "if there is at least one caster in your party, background magic triggers your latent sorcerous abilities.  Since you have trained to do X, it is only natural that the power supports your class."  This triggers a bunch of future powers.  People who like 4e are happy since their martial players get nice stuff, and people who don't like 4e are satisfied that there is a "magical" reason for martials to have powers.

[I am using "sorcerer" for anyone who gets power due to "magical ancestory", if that is the kind of warlock you like, please feel free to substitute "warlock for "sorcerer" above.]
I'd love if the PC version of the tiefling gave you the option to roll on a randomized chart to determine their fiendish traits like in older editions.


While I'd like the option for that as well, the 2e charts are not fully applicable for DDN in that they included various levels of energy resistances.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />What I meant (and probably didn't clarify) is a PoL campaign setting, which would imply full support (and likely independent cosmology a la World Axis.)  Personally, I'd rather it be an independent world.  I wasn't too keen on it being the more or less core (Yes, I'm one of those who was less than pleased with the PoL'ified Realms.)  Just look at how 3e Greyhawk invaded other settings...  But I digress, seeing Nentir Vale and beyond as an independent entity would be great for it!  I want to see it become something akin to the Known World (or "pre-Mystara" if you prefer)



Oh, in that case, Agreed!

There is no need for Nerath to be the core setting (if such a thing exists anyway). But I'm not so hopeful that it will be supported properly in D&D Next. I don't have any official confirmation of its appearance in D&D Next, just common fans saying “Oh sure it will be supported, I think…” and actually the only official confirmation is that they are going to have a shared, “one cosmology to rule them all” that has severe chance of changing the setting too much. I think this is a grim time for Nerath fans.

There is no need for Nerath to be the core setting (if such a thing exists anyway). But I'm not so hopeful that it will be supported properly in D&D Next. I don't have any official confirmation of its appearance in D&D Next, just common fans saying “Oh sure it will be supported, I think…” and actually the only official confirmation is that they are going to have a shared, “one cosmology to rule them all” that has severe chance of changing the setting too much. I think this is a grim time for Nerath fans.


The cosmology for my world (which heavily uses PoL/Nentir Vale elements) will remain unchanged, no matter what they do as the assumed cosmology in 5E.  I don't see why it needs to change for anyone else who likes the Nentir Vale, either.  Cosmology is a very fluffy part of a world.  Or it should be.  Sure, they could tie some mechanics to the Great Wheel, but I'll not be using those, either.  Nor will I be using any mechanics tied to alignment.

I'm happy that my 4E tieflings will remain in the game.  That was actually going to be the case in the first place, even if I had to homebrew them.  I'll just be telling my players that "all tieflings in the world are of the _____ subrace.  Other subraces do not exist" until such time as I can figure out a way to write them into the world.
I'm just going to say: I don't feel like these tieflings are inclusive enough to the 4e version. You could make proper support for 4th edition setting, and make the classic 4e tieflings appear there, but you would also had to use a different cosmology than the new, "compromised" cosmology if there is proper support for 4e setting and lore.

 Well, the 4e tieflings used a variation of the Bael Turath pact in Forgotten Realms- the brimstone angel's pact.    If they're going to be using that, I imagine they'll have some Bael Turathi love for Greyhawk hellborn tieflings.


Honestly, I'm betting Points of Light setting is going to be its own setting, like FR and Eberron.
Let me rephrase the issue.  If the sorcerer's gig is they get powers because of "magical ancestory", and you have tieflings and cambions that have "magical ancestory", then logically, either all  tieflings and cambions are sorcerers, or sorcerers really get their power from something other than or in addition to "magical background."  So, I am thinking what other factor could trigger the "sorcerer gene."  It seems to me that we could resolve many D&D disputes if we said that living in a high magic environment triggered it.

That sorcerers get their power from some kind of magical ancestry doesn't mean that everybody with some kind of magical ancestry is a sorcerer. It's understood that being a sorcerer is a combination of magical blood, actually developing the talents granted by your magical blood, and some luck involved in the genes/magic-equivalent-of-genes actually being expressed in you personally. "Sorcery implies supernatural ancestry" and "supernatural ancestry implies sorcery" are not logically equivalent.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Let me rephrase the issue.  If the sorcerer's gig is they get powers because of "magical ancestory", and you have tieflings and cambions that have "magical ancestory", then logically, either all  tieflings and cambions are sorcerers, or sorcerers really get their power from something other than or in addition to "magical background."  So, I am thinking what other factor could trigger the "sorcerer gene."  It seems to me that we could resolve many D&D disputes if we said that living in a high magic environment triggered it.

That sorcerers get their power from some kind of magical ancestry doesn't mean that everybody with some kind of magical ancestry is a sorcerer. It's understood that being a sorcerer is a combination of magical blood, actually developing the talents granted by your magical blood, and some luck involved in the genes/magic-equivalent-of-genes actually being expressed in you personally. "Sorcery implies supernatural ancestry" and "supernatural ancestry implies sorcery" are not logically equivalent.


Technically, I said that if you have people with magical ancestory that aren't sorcerers, then something other than magical ancestory is necessary to explain sorcerers.  I think "luck" is, at best, a pretty weak explanation, but I will admit it does fit the rationale for the sorcerer class nicely.

I'm just going to say: I don't feel like these tieflings are inclusive enough to the 4e version. You could make proper support for 4th edition setting, and make the classic 4e tieflings appear there, but you would also had to use a different cosmology than the new, "compromised" cosmology if there is proper support for 4e setting and lore.

 Well, the 4e tieflings used a variation of the Bael Turath pact in Forgotten Realms- the brimstone angel's pact.    If they're going to be using that, I imagine they'll have some Bael Turathi love for Greyhawk hellborn tieflings.


Honestly, I'm betting Points of Light setting is going to be its own setting, like FR and Eberron.



Wait, what?  I'm petty sure tieflings in the Realms are extraplanar humanoids that have fiend blood in their ancestry.  I thought the Asmodeus Tieflings were a Points of Light concept.  But, that's no reason we can't have the PoL Tieflings out of the box as an option.  That or part of a fully supported Nerath/Points of Light Campaign Setting along with dragonborn and eladrin.  I'm also pretty sure Wizards implied the latter, at least giving us a campaign setting.

Crazed undead horror posing as a noble and heroic forum poster!

 

 

Some good pointers for the fellow hobbyist!:

  • KEEP D&D ALIVE, END EDITION WARS!
  • RESPECT PEOPLES' PREFERENCES
  • JUST ENJOY THE GAME!