If Next sought to unite the D&D player base, did the open playtest run counter to that goal?

I know the conventional wisdom was that Next would become the edition-unifying of D&D, and that an open playtest would, in theory, invite feedback that would help to shape/craft such a system.  However, is it possible that, rather than unify people behind 5e, that the open playtest, and resultant battle over which ideas would be included in the final product, served to fracture the community(up to this point)?


In the last couple of days I have seen people extol how happy they are with the direction of the game...and I have seen others bid farewell given their displeasure.  I have read the text of people who feel like their feedback was valued and is reflected in the direction of Next, and I have read others say that they have felt ignored.  I have witnessed some say how happy they are that "classic" concepts seemed to shape the outcome, while others have suggested that "modern" concepts seemed to have been jettisoned.


Whether or not Next is, at it tried to be, a game that would re-unify the D&D player base(that is an argument for another thread), did the playtest and resultant battle for input/edition warring that resulted run counter to that lofty goal of Next?       


I am curious what people think... 



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Again, as with Lokiare's pretty much identical thread, this is pure trolling.

We are in a PLAYTEST. its sole purpose is to gather data. You cannot use that process to say ANYTHING about whether DDN, as a whole, had achieved its goals, because you have not seen that product. It does not exist. You are like someone looking at a computer model simulating a potential manned trip to mars, asking "well, what did mars feel like when you got there, guys?"
Again, as with Lokiare's pretty much identical thread, this is pure trolling. We are in a PLAYTEST. its sole purpose is to gather data. You cannot use that process to say ANYTHING about whether DDN, as a whole, had achieved its goals, because you have not seen that product. It does not exist. You are like someone looking at a computer model simulating a potential manned trip to mars, asking "well, what did mars feel like when you got there, guys?"



I am not at all discussing whether the project met its design goals(and I agree that you will find that topic well-explored in other threads)...please go back and re-read my original post.  My question is really regarding the impact of the playtest on community unity and interaction.  I welcome your input on that topic, given that you are a veteran and active member of these boards, I suspect that you have some opinions relevant to that topic.

The goal was not to troll, but to get answers to a question.       Perhaps I should qualify my original post with the words "up to this point"(which I have)
  
Again, I welcome your response.
No.

Players from all editions are arguing with eachother. Sometimes even comming to compromises.

Which is a big step up from ignoring eachother.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Again, as with Lokiare's pretty much identical thread, this is pure trolling. We are in a PLAYTEST. its sole purpose is to gather data. You cannot use that process to say ANYTHING about whether DDN, as a whole, had achieved its goals, because you have not seen that product. It does not exist. You are like someone looking at a computer model simulating a potential manned trip to mars, asking "well, what did mars feel like when you got there, guys?"



Wow. Seems like someone has their head in the sand. You've never been in a beta have you? 
One Edition to rule them all simply isn't possible.  Far too many players will never be happy with anything other than their favorite edition.
a_troll00 has said, "Humans like you have ruined your own lands. You will not ruin mine!"
95% of the negative comments I've seen are from the same dozen people. Whereas there are at LEAST 15 people making up 90% of the "pro" column. ;)

Point being, this forum isn't really indicative of anything.
My unscientific guess...

50% of 1e players will switch.
70% of 2e players will switch.
50% of 3e/PF players will switch (the rest will go full PF)
60% of 4e players will switch. (80% if the tactical module is any good).
50% of new players will stay with it. (30% will pick another TTRPG).

So while it won't (and can't) fully replace any edition. It unite the majority of D&D players. Which is all you can realisticly ask for.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

My unscientific guess... 50% of 1e players will switch. 70% of 2e players will switch. 50% of 3e/PF players will switch (the rest will go full PF) 60% of 4e players will switch. (80% if the tactical module is any good). 50% of new players will stay with it. (30% will pick another TTRPG). So while it won't (and can't) fully replace any edition. It unite the majority of D&D players. Which is all you can realisticly ask for.



Sadly give that most prior edition players already have a game version they prefer I forsee far lower conversion rates for the "Non Current system" players. Probably in the 25% range for 1st and second and maybe 35% for 3ed/PF players. I think you are close on the 4th players as that includes the largest group of people who will play whatever the currect system is, even then I expect at least 1/2 to stay in 4th for the heroic/cinematic feel it provides. Unless the tactical module is amazing, which I consider highly unlikely from the little they have said about it and the basic game chassis of next, all the serious tactical players will stay with 4th.

Did I miss the WotC announcement where they said the goal was to unify the player base?
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
My unscientific guess... 50% of 1e players will switch. 70% of 2e players will switch. 50% of 3e/PF players will switch (the rest will go full PF) 60% of 4e players will switch. (80% if the tactical module is any good). 50% of new players will stay with it. (30% will pick another TTRPG). So while it won't (and can't) fully replace any edition. It unite the majority of D&D players. Which is all you can realisticly ask for.



I hope, for 5e's sake, that your numbers fit better than my own predictions:

50% of 1e/2e/BECMI fans will probably switch
20% of 3e/PF fans will probably switch
10% of 4e fans will probably switch
25% of new players will pick up the game based on exposure. 

as the 3e/PF/4e groups are actually the largest groups (given just mortality rates and simple aging considerations) that means that in all likelihood, given the numbers I put forth, 5e will be maybe 1/2 as popular overall as 4e was, meaning 6e will be right around the corner.

Again, I hope I'm wrong, and the final product is much much better than its looking to be...and again, either of our numbers could be right or wrong, we both might be wrong (but no way we're both 100% right of course)

So uniting the eidtions doesn't seem to be the successful outcome of the playtest, in my personal observational opinion, of course, but then, I never speak for others (except My direct gaming group who express their opinions through Me rather than go on the boards themselves) 
Want continued support for 4e, check this out, 4e Lives and Breaths

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However, is it possible that, rather than unify people behind 5e, that the open playtest, and resultant battle over which ideas would be included in the final product, served to fracture the community(up to this point)?


Right now at this very moment, yes. 
In the long term after the first couple books have been released, no.

Right now we're seeing a fraction of the planned game so it's really hard to get a clear evaluation of the final product. They haven't released so much and are keeping so many options close to their chest it would be foolish to judge what the final game will look like. We're blind men feeling an elephant. 

There's a battle over ideas, but not over what will be included in the final product. We're battling over what will be included in the first product.  Which is very different. 

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The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

Internet forums are not a credible source to base assumptions or predictions on.  In almost all of the pick up Next games I've been playing (both in person and on G+), the players have been from all editions.  And with a few exceptions, everyone's had a good time.
Internet forums are not a credible source to base assumptions or predictions on.  In almost all of the pick up Next games I've been playing (both in person and on G+), the players have been from all editions.  And with a few exceptions, everyone's had a good time.



 Forums can sink an edition IMHO. Should have seen the cesspool back in 2007/8. 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

My unscientific guess... 50% of 1e players will switch. 70% of 2e players will switch. 50% of 3e/PF players will switch (the rest will go full PF) 60% of 4e players will switch. (80% if the tactical module is any good). 50% of new players will stay with it. (30% will pick another TTRPG). So while it won't (and can't) fully replace any edition. It unite the majority of D&D players. Which is all you can realisticly ask for.



I hope, for 5e's sake, that your numbers fit better than my own predictions:

50% of 1e/2e/BECMI fans will probably switch
20% of 3e/PF fans will probably switch
10% of 4e fans will probably switch
25% of new players will pick up the game based on exposure. 

as the 3e/PF/4e groups are actually the largest groups (given just mortality rates and simple aging considerations) that means that in all likelihood, given the numbers I put forth, 5e will be maybe 1/2 as popular overall as 4e was, meaning 6e will be right around the corner.

Again, I hope I'm wrong, and the final product is much much better than its looking to be...and again, either of our numbers could be right or wrong, we both might be wrong (but no way we're both 100% right of course)

So uniting the eidtions doesn't seem to be the successful outcome of the playtest, in my personal observational opinion, of course, but then, I never speak for others (except My direct gaming group who express their opinions through Me rather than go on the boards themselves) 



I think it will be as popular as 4e.
I do not think it will reach the boom level of success that is occasionally had in the past (different culture and different market).  So they will have traded 4e fans for some folks coming back from previos systems but not enough to meet hasbros goals.


I am guessing the majority will give it a whirl, if they have any interest in D&D, but with the WOTCs track record in reference to restricting PDF sales, third party involvment, licensing, releasing adventures, etc. most likely it will be a flash in the pan. It will be really hard to maintain the table top roleplaying environment for D&D without significant buy in, and the player base is too fragmented; which will come to a head with DMs with any type of D&D experience. They are not the most forgiving group when it comes to system bias or preferences.
My unscientific guess... 50% of 1e players will switch. 70% of 2e players will switch. 50% of 3e/PF players will switch (the rest will go full PF) 60% of 4e players will switch. (80% if the tactical module is any good). 50% of new players will stay with it. (30% will pick another TTRPG). So while it won't (and can't) fully replace any edition. It unite the majority of D&D players. Which is all you can realisticly ask for.



I hope, for 5e's sake, that your numbers fit better than my own predictions:

50% of 1e/2e/BECMI fans will probably switch
20% of 3e/PF fans will probably switch
10% of 4e fans will probably switch
25% of new players will pick up the game based on exposure. 

as the 3e/PF/4e groups are actually the largest groups (given just mortality rates and simple aging considerations) that means that in all likelihood, given the numbers I put forth, 5e will be maybe 1/2 as popular overall as 4e was, meaning 6e will be right around the corner.

Again, I hope I'm wrong, and the final product is much much better than its looking to be...and again, either of our numbers could be right or wrong, we both might be wrong (but no way we're both 100% right of course)

So uniting the eidtions doesn't seem to be the successful outcome of the playtest, in my personal observational opinion, of course, but then, I never speak for others (except My direct gaming group who express their opinions through Me rather than go on the boards themselves) 



I think it will be as popular as 4e.
I do not think it will reach the boom level of success that is occasionally had in the past (different culture and different market).  So they will have traded 4e fans for some folks coming back from previos systems but not enough to meet hasbros goals.





I only hope for its sake that it meets 4e's general level of popularity...HASBRO's goals, however, are for the most part a pipe-dream, unless maybe if they go the multi-system support structure outlined in another thread.

Also not, I may have been overly generous with that first 50% on My chart, I'm trying to be optimistic, many of the Hackmaster and OSRIC crowd won't convert back to anything with a WotC label on it when those games meet their expectations if not exceed them much more often. (Plus Jolly and the gang at Kenzer are just seriously great people to know personally) 
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I am guessing the majority will give it a whirl, if they have any interest in D&D, but with the WOTCs track record in reference to restricting PDF sales, third party involvment, licensing, releasing adventures, etc. most likely it will be a flash in the pan. It will be really hard to maintain the table top roleplaying environment for D&D without significant buy in, and the player base is too fragmented; which will come to a head with DMs with any type of D&D experience. They are not the most forgiving group when it comes to system bias or preferences.



Good point, and, when you consider DM's drive table preferences quite a bit, and DMs seem to generally be the most likely to be represented on the forums, the numbers I posted may be quite generous when you come to think on it. People say the Forums are the extreme side, and that's true, however, DMs tend to be the bulk of that extremist trend
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In my experience players will play whatever the DM offers them. 4th ed was up against 34 years of history and inertia. Pathfinder makes great adventures which require less work for DMs. Locally 4th ed has no DMs AFAIK not a single one at least in the RPG club and old game store network.

 Traditionally most gamers seem to come into the hobby via DMs with the obvious exception of the 80's when the game was new and back then it was very simple with copious support from published adventures. Lose the DMs and you may be in trouble. Doesn't matter if you have the best car in the world if you can't get gas for it. 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Yes DMs will be the death of the hobby.
All because of this silly DM empowerment.
There's no mystery if people prefer computer RPGs . There's no empowered DMs in videogames.
D&D need a huge module to make the DM totally optional to save it future.
And chocolate.
Everything is easier to sell with chocolate IMO. 

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

Very very true, Z, in fact, one of the problems that 4e had was the fact that it didn't necessarily attract enough DMs in certain areas to give it a try, thus keeping many players who very well may have loved the game, from ever getting to experience it.
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Yes DMs will be the death of the hobby.
All because of this silly DM empowerment.
There's no mystery if people prefer computer RPGs . There's no empowered DMs in videogames.
D&D need a huge module to make the DM totally optional to save it future.
And chocolate.
Everything is easier to sell with chocolate IMO. 



I hate chocolate....just saying (unless it's White Chocolate, love Me some pure cocoa butter, sugar and milk, mmmmmm mmmm mmmm)
Want continued support for 4e, check this out, 4e Lives and Breaths

Check out MY eZine, Random Encounters Seuss (lordseussmd on YM)
Chocolate D&D would bring more girls to the hobby.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

In my experience players will play whatever the DM offers them. 4th ed was up against 34 years of history and inertia. Pathfinder makes great adventures which require less work for DMs. Locally 4th ed has no DMs AFAIK not a single one at least in the RPG club and old game store network.

 Traditionally most gamers seem to come into the hobby via DMs with the obvious exception of the 80's when the game was new and back then it was very simple with copious support from published adventures. Lose the DMs and you may be in trouble. Doesn't matter if you have the best car in the world if you can't get gas for it. 



I could never just rely on  "local" GMs or I wouldnt get to play anything. If I had to rely on real-life DMs down at the game shop, theres nothing but card games. There is a bi-monthly PF game I found out about, but you need to be able to play for 5-6 hrs a sitting. Not always convenient.

Its the great thing about online gaming imo. As long as the internet is there, DMs are there. Doesnt matter how obscure the game. Based on what I see online, TTRPGS are in great shape. I mean, I could play all day every day if I had the time.

I think that 4e pretty much is the floor when it comes to D&D popularity.  The first year doesn't matter.  It will be a boom.  The second and third years say it all.  

I think 5e will do fine.  It will do better than 4e did.  It really is a more inclusive game.  4e made no bones whatsoever about catering to any style other than it's own.  It kicked me out of D&D with violent force and slammed the door.

 

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It will do the same for anyone that likes a specific edition, or more importantly, does not like the problems that occur with a specific edition, including 4E. Because it is the things we don't like that is a thorn in the side with every game that is played. 5E will cary over some old ones and will introduce some new ones.
It will do the same for anyone that likes a specific edition, or more importantly, does not like the problems that occur with a specific edition, including 4E. Because it is the things we don't like that is a thorn in the side with every game that is played. 5E will cary over some old ones and will introduce some new ones.



Who can argue that some of this may happen for some people?  I do think though that this game has as a goal to be inclusive.  They are offering a warrior and a gladiator.  

My Blog which includes my Hobby Award Winning articles.

Removed some baiting and harrassment posts - as a reminder, discussing moderation or reporting is, in fact, against the Code of Conduct as forum disruption.

company.wizards.com/conduct

Keep it clean. 
I think the playtest pushed the battle forward a couple of years, where we hash it out before the book comes out, instead of after. The cries of "Betrayal!" will finish reverberating long before the Core books come out. So, in a way, well played, WotC.

But I do think they spoiled the experience by promising too much to too many people, and never clarifiying their position when that proved unsustainable. If they gave us a much clearer idea of what the process would be, and how much feedback they were looking for, I think less people would be disappointed.

I know one of the reasons I've stayed on is because they've never said point-blank what 5ed would be, so I can't definitively say if I really like it or not. Thus, I've hung on, hoping for clarification or a more favourable approach. Again, well played, WotC.  

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

I think that even if it doesn't appear fully in the core book, they may still come out with the unifying promises (hopefully) in the modules or expansion products.
You Learn Something New Every Day!
Did I miss the WotC announcement where they said the goal was to unify the player base?


Unifying the player base is pretty much the only way they can make the sales Hasbro is demanding in order to keep the line alive.

So while it may not have been outright said, Wizards pretty much HAS to work at unifying the fanbase.
You can't unify a playerbase that insists on being divided. 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Did I miss the WotC announcement where they said the goal was to unify the player base?


Unifying the player base is pretty much the only way they can make the sales Hasbro is demanding in order to keep the line alive.

So while it may not have been outright said, Wizards pretty much HAS to work at unifying the fanbase.



I don't necessarily think that's true.  We have no idea what HASBRO's goals for success are.  They really only care about Magic since that's the real money maker.  I'm sure they just want to be the #1 RPG again, not necessarily that they have to be the only fantasy RPG being purchased.  I think a good way of doing that is to come out with a basic product line, which they sort of seem to be doing with some of the playtest options.
Did I miss the WotC announcement where they said the goal was to unify the player base?


Unifying the player base is pretty much the only way they can make the sales Hasbro is demanding in order to keep the line alive.

So while it may not have been outright said, Wizards pretty much HAS to work at unifying the fanbase.



Huh.  What's your source on that?

I mean, do you know what Hasbro's sales goals are, how big the overall player base is, etc?

Or was that pure conjecture?

"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
Actually... while there are a few tired arguments still popping up, I've seen strange bedfellows made. Some folks have come to appreciate and admire others' points of view.
But, they'll play their own table's version of Next.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
HASBRO announced what their Core Brand Strategic goals are, $50 mil in profits, growing to over 100mil. That's HASBRO's goal. If their goal was to be the #1 RPG again, all they would have to do is go back to supporting 4e Classic. It wasn't until support for 4e Classic ended that D&D ever lost the #1 spot, A fact! As I pointed out before, in fact, even without ANY REAL SUPPORT WHATSOEVER for the last 2 years, 4e is still in 2nd place overall...without support, that says something about the brand, and the edition as a whole.

 
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HASBRO announced what their Core Brand Strategic goals are, $50 mil in profits, growing to over 100mil. That's HASBRO's goal. If their goal was to be the #1 RPG again, all they would have to do is go back to supporting 4e Classic. It wasn't until support for 4e Classic ended that D&D ever lost the #1 spot, A fact! As I pointed out before, in fact, even without ANY REAL SUPPORT WHATSOEVER for the last 2 years, 4e is still in 2nd place overall...without support, that says something about the brand, and the edition as a whole.

 



It fell to third place for all we know the AD&D and 3.5 reprints dragged it up to 2nd place again. 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

HASBRO announced what their Core Brand Strategic goals are, $50 mil in profits, growing to over 100mil. That's HASBRO's goal. If their goal was to be the #1 RPG again, all they would have to do is go back to supporting 4e Classic. It wasn't until support for 4e Classic ended that D&D ever lost the #1 spot, A fact! As I pointed out before, in fact, even without ANY REAL SUPPORT WHATSOEVER for the last 2 years, 4e is still in 2nd place overall...without support, that says something about the brand, and the edition as a whole.

 



Hasbro made that announcement in 2008,  there's no evidence that's in effect any longer.  This is something people use as a way of rationalizing 4th edition's cancellation.  Considering that the Axis and Allies brand is still going,  I think we can safely say that it is not in effect.  A&A is not a 50 million dollar brand.  

I also think you might want to consider the implications of "4e is still in 2nd place overall...without support",  it does say something about the brand,  and not what you think it does.  It means that 2 years after WOTC dropped support,  at least a year after they stopped printing,  stores are still trying to get rid of their 4th edition material.  If there's still product on the shelves two years later,  and at least a year after printing stopped,  then 4th edition's player base is very small.
In the lull between the end of 3.5 and Pathfinder RPG 3.5 PHB got hard to find and hit $50 a pop on ebay. Prices came down once Pathfinder was released.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

In the lull between the end of 3.5 and Pathfinder RPG 3.5 PHB got hard to find and hit $50 a pop on ebay. Pices came down once Pathfinder was released.



Way down. You can get a 3rd edition book for like, $5.00 on Amazon.
In the lull between the end of 3.5 and Pathfinder RPG 3.5 PHB got hard to find and hit $50 a pop on ebay. Pices came down once Pathfinder was released.



Way down. You can get a 3rd edition book for like, $5.00 on Amazon.



 Yup old RPG books tend to go for $10 or less on Ebay at least D&D ones that were printed in reasonable quantities. A few years back I picked up some Star Wars D6 for a buck or 2 and the postage was $8 to NZ. 

 Ebay is not a bad indicator of how popular stuff is. I do not have my account aymore so I don't check prices these days.  

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

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