Numenera and 5e

So, I have never been the biggest Monte Cook fan, as I did not really agree with the whole "system mastery" concept he brought to 3e D&D. For a while I thought of him as the king of the useless feats, the master of making a book 300 pages longer than it needed to be. Numenera, however, is a masterpiece. If you havent seen it yet, not only is the world creative and cool as hell, but the mechanics are like sweet honey butter on a fluffy roll. It is really no wonder that Bruce Cordell blew out after decades w TSR and WOTC to go work for Monte. He was probably tired of doing the exact same thing over and over and wanted to get in on the ground level of something that is going to be really special.

Anyway, it is interesting to look at Numenera and try to see what parts if any might have made it to 5e, or even DID make it. One thing that is really cool about it is that it has bounded accuracy. No, not 5es bounded accuracy, where they ditched it bc a few people cried about getting paralyzed by a ghoul, and then went back and completely changed their design goals. In Numenera, there is a set scale of difficulty from 1 to 10. Never changes. The DCs are 3x the number representing the difficulty. So the DC for the easiest thing (a 1 on the scale) is a 3 (roll a d20). To hit a difficulty of 5, you need a 15. Now here is the cool thing. There arent really "bonuses" to your roll. Instead, your training, gear, etc LOWERS the difficulty. So a level 8 challenge (DC 24) might get lowered three or four ranks to become a level 4 (DC 12). The same scale is used for combat and skills and everything. Now THAT is bounded accuracy. I wonder if the DCs and skills would have ended up along those lines?

Something about 5e that really resembles (or resembled) Numenera, at least early on (hard to say what skills will look like now until the game comes out), was that choosing your specialty and/or background also provided your skills and a feat, or something feat-like. In Numenera they call it your "descriptor", kind of a mix between 5e backgrounds and specialties (RIP). These concepts look(ed) very, very similar to each other...until WOTC decided to make you choose between feats and stat bumps. Still, you can see that the idea of packaging feats, traits and/or skills together based on your specialty or background is pretty much the same in both games.

It is a real SHAME that Monte didnt stick around long enough to make 5es critical hits something worthwhile. What he did for Numenera is genius. You dont just do extra damage on a 20, you do scaling extra damage on a 17-20. This makes any really high roll fun. On a 19, you can do an improvised "minor" result (push a target, distract, etc). On a 20 you can improv a "major" result (stun them, knock them down, etc). SOOOOOOOOO much better than 5es god-awful crummy crits where you just roll 1 more [W]. 5e should just say "screw it" and rip that off. I have never seen someone say they like how 5e handles crits. Ever. The Numenera method also allows for the increased improvisation in combat that so many D&D players claim they want. Shame that 5e missed out on this.

Anyway, I found it very interesting to read Numenera (not done yet) looking at it thru a 5e lens. You can see that Monte had an effect on the game, even though he blew out early in the process. In the end, he could afford to be much more innovative with Numenera, while WOTC has pretty much had their hands tied throughout the entire playtest process, having to (re)discover what people think D&D should "feel" like and design accordingly. Kind of like an order-taker or waiter. As a result, 5e doesnt feel like it breaks new ground so much as it finds a way to clean up the past. I like 5e; played it twice yesterday. But it doesnt really feel "new". It doesnt take the game to a new place, imo. And that makes sense, bc they didnt want to take it to a new place. They wanted to get back lapsed players and make something that was really familiar to people, just polished up a little. That might be why Monte and then Bruce blew out: they wanted the freedom to take more chances and innovate.

Reading Numenera, all I can say is that it is a shame that Monte didnt stay on longer. A lot of these mechanics would have made 5e more dynamic and feel more like its own version of the game. Like more of a progression as opposed to a rehashing.

Anybody else see any parallels between the 2 games? Or thoughts on Numenera mechanics you wish made it to 5e?

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Yes and there are also some parelels with DnD Next design and 13th age.

With Numenera, 13th age, pathfinder and the older editions of DnD out there Dnd next will probebly have quite a fight on heir hands to get and maintain a good market share.
WIth 5e looking more and more like a game I am going to pass on my interest in Numenera is growing...thanks for reminding me of this game.  If Insider support ends for 4e I will likely switch systems.   To those well-versed in ttrpgs in general(I have only ever played D&D), would a guy who liked 4e enjoy this game or 13th Age more? (or what else would you suggest?)
I was very tempted the other day on PGnow.com to buy it as the PDF was $20. However Europa Unversalis IV was also calling so I bought that instead but I may have to grab Numenera soon.Play D&DN or Star Wars D6, retroclones and EUIV hhmmnnnn.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I'm sure that developing D&D comes with tons of restrictions. First off, the project is funded by a major corporation with standards and practices and bla bla bla, while Numenara is funded with a big wad of Kickstarter money already in the bank. Second, D&D comes with a ton of legacy and a ton of baggage. Even the most minor mechanical innovation is controversial for a non-negligible portion of the consumer base. People might like or dislike details of Numenara's mechanics, but they can't say something "doesn't feel like Numenara to me." So if I was a developer, I might very well prefer to work with Monte.

That said, do I think 5e is doomed to be a worse project? Heck no. WOTC has deeper pockets than a Kickstarter project, along with much more infrastructure, publicity, etc.
Now here is the cool thing. There arent really "bonuses" to your roll. Instead, your training, gear, etc LOWERS the difficulty. So a level 8 challenge (DC 24) might get lowered three or four ranks to become a level 4 (DC 12). The same scale is used for combat and skills and everything. Now THAT is bounded accuracy. I wonder if the DCs and skills would have ended up along those lines?



Not to rain on your parade... and it's not that I don't find this system you described interesting too...

But lowering the DC and adding a bonus to the roll mean the same thing. Same math, only backwards.
It's like one of those THAC0/Base Attack cases. Exact same thing, only with a different presentation.

As I said, doesn't mean working with DCs instead of bonuses isn't interesting, and I'll probably check Numenera out of curiosity some time soon. But that specific thing you mentioned isn't really what makes the system "bounded" or not.

I bought it.

Love the artwook in the book.

Mechanics are a bit different, yet not so different that they are revolutionary.

The map is well drawn, but bland and disappointing. 

I like the futuristic-dark ages setting. 

Those are my initial thoughts.

 
I bought it.

Love the artwook in the book.

Mechanics are a bit different, yet not so different that they are revolutionary.

The map is well drawn, but bland and disappointing. 

I like the futuristic-dark ages setting. 

Those are my initial thoughts.

 



How is the balance?

What makes it bounded is there is a capped DC range of 30 to 3. This is applied across the board: combat, skills, "lore", EVERYTHING is bound to the same range, no matter how experienced the PC, no matter how tough the creature. 5e has ability score caps...sort of...but the bonuses are all over the place and vary wildly according to lore, skills, saving throws, and to hit bonuses. The 5e philosophy also completely changed based on a 5th level Ftr getting paralyzed by a ghoul. It went from "no DM expectation" of PC progressions, to "expected" progressions plus feat stat bumps (4e-lite). Ghouls who could threaten PCs w paralysis over 20 levels now get met with progressively easier saving throws, to the point where they are effectively "priced out" of BA. All in all, only Numenera's version seems to live up to the original promise of the idea, although 5e certainly improves on 4e's treadmill effect.
I got Numenera in the mail 2 days ago.  I am still digesting it.  I have adventure idea's brewing and hope to play it next weekend.  I like the simple system.  It won't stop me from buying NEXT if the final product is good.  And as much as I seem to be liking Numenera it is not what I want in NEXT.  I go to DnD for specific things.  I like to play many different games.  I am likeing the skill system alot.  I have been doing similar things with settings.  A human civilization that lived on Earth between 100,000 and 200,000 years ago and another 1 billion years in the future.  And I like tech and magic being the same thing.
I got Numenera in the mail 2 days ago.  I am still digesting it.  I have adventure idea's brewing and hope to play it next weekend.  I like the simple system.  It won't stop me from buying NEXT if the final product is good.



Oh it wont stop me from buying both either. I didnt really mean this as a thread about which is better, but more about what parts of Numenera came from 5e, or might have been in 5e, or are similar to 5e.
I bought it.

Love the artwook in the book.

Mechanics are a bit different, yet not so different that they are revolutionary.

The map is well drawn, but bland and disappointing. 

I like the futuristic-dark ages setting. 

Those are my initial thoughts.

 



How is the balance?




That is going to take a lot more reading for me to give an opinion on that.
The only thing that looks good to me is effects on crits. Damage is boring.

Otherwise, it's bounded THAC0.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I got Numenera in the mail 2 days ago.  I am still digesting it.  I have adventure idea's brewing and hope to play it next weekend.  I like the simple system.  It won't stop me from buying NEXT if the final product is good.



Oh it wont stop me from buying both either. I didnt really mean this as a thread about which is better, but more about what parts of Numenera came from 5e, or might have been in 5e, or are similar to 5e.



I didn't interpret you as saying that either.  I was just being clear that I like many different types of games, but I have specific expectations that I look for when I play DnD.  I still bounce back and forthe between BECMI, 1E/2E hybrid game, and PF.  I have different settings I like to DM with in each system.  I also been dabbling in classic Runequest, but prefer Call of Cthulhu or Stormbringer when I want a system like that.  I do play Gamma World 4E, Mutants and Masterminds, and other games too.  But I always go back to the BECMI, 1E/2E games.  I really have high hopes that my settings can be played in 5E with no alterations.  But I think my settings are too set in history and class mechanics for that, but maybe I can steal some ideas.  Would still like to add 5E to the games I like to play and develop a setting for it if it is not too far out from what I like in DnD.
A futuristic setting for D&D could also work.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The only thing that looks good to me is effects on crits. Damage is boring. Otherwise, it's bounded THAC0.



Damage is a little boring. 

Explain how this game is bounded THAC0? Pardon my ignorance of the term Bounded THAC0. 
That... really does sound fascinating.

I first heard about Numenera from knowing about "Torment: Tides of Numenera", which is a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment (probably my favorite video game of all time).  I had honestly heard nothing else about the RPG until now.  I probably could have gone hunting, but I didn't: I'm not in muych of a position to pick up something new so it didn't matter to me if it was a fluff setting for Pathfinder rules or its own thing.

But I might have to check this out.

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

 

Follow me to No Goblins Allowed

A M:tG/D&D message board with a good community and usable software

 


THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

WIth 5e looking more and more like a game I am going to pass on my interest in Numenera is growing...thanks for reminding me of this game.  If Insider support ends for 4e I will likely switch systems.   To those well-versed in ttrpgs in general(I have only ever played D&D), would a guy who liked 4e enjoy this game or 13th Age more? (or what else would you suggest?)

If you want to keep playing D&D, get 13th Age. If you want an entirely different system and setting (super far future SciFi/fantasy), go with Numenera.

WIth 5e looking more and more like a game I am going to pass on my interest in Numenera is growing...thanks for reminding me of this game.  If Insider support ends for 4e I will likely switch systems.   To those well-versed in ttrpgs in general(I have only ever played D&D), would a guy who liked 4e enjoy this game or 13th Age more? (or what else would you suggest?)

If you want to keep playing D&D, get 13th Age. If you want an entirely different system and setting (super far future SciFi/fantasy), go with Numenera.




Any reason one can't re-skin Numenera's mechanics to fit within a D&D-like setting? D20 supported all sorts of settings, is Numenera's math so baked into the Lore that the two are inseperable?

I'm going to buy this book, if only to support Monte but on the offchance that I'll get to try it once or twice and get inspired for house ruling crits in D&D Next.

Crits and crit fumbles though, let's face it, always were boring by default. In Pathfinder we used crit and crit fumble cards to great hilarity, it was way more fun than just MOAR damage, although 1/2 the time doing more damage was simply the better option. (even a crit card sometimes upped the crit multiplier of your weapon too, since you could choose between a few cards usually. really fun).

Thanks for this thread, I'm going to buy it. 
The only thing that looks good to me is effects on crits. .


I am honestly surprised to hear you say that. I like the character focus mechanism and how no two adventurers in the same party are allowed to have the same one. The way they do "magic items" is also awesome, I think; I like how they kind of force you to use the "cyphers" since the more you have, the more dangerous it becomes. That is a clever way to force the use of one-time effects. It would be like if D&D had all potions have an expiration date. *campaign idea*Surprised
WIth 5e looking more and more like a game I am going to pass on my interest in Numenera is growing...thanks for reminding me of this game.  If Insider support ends for 4e I will likely switch systems.   To those well-versed in ttrpgs in general(I have only ever played D&D), would a guy who liked 4e enjoy this game or 13th Age more? (or what else would you suggest?)

If you want to keep playing D&D, get 13th Age. If you want an entirely different system and setting (super far future SciFi/fantasy), go with Numenera.




Any reason one can't re-skin Numenera's mechanics to fit within a D&D-like setting? D20 supported all sorts of settings, is Numenera's math so baked into the Lore that the two are inseperable?

I'm going to buy this book, if only to support Monte but on the offchance that I'll get to try it once or twice and get inspired for house ruling crits in D&D Next.

Crits and crit fumbles though, let's face it, always were boring by default. In Pathfinder we used crit and crit fumble cards to great hilarity, it was way more fun than just MOAR damage, although 1/2 the time doing more damage was simply the better option. (even a crit card sometimes upped the crit multiplier of your weapon too, since you could choose between a few cards usually. really fun).

Thanks for this thread, I'm going to buy it. 



I have the crit and fumble deck for PF also.  They were a hoot.
So, I have never been the biggest Monte Cook fan, as I did not really agree with the whole "system mastery" concept he brought to 3e D&D. For a while I thought of him as the king of the useless feats, the master of making a book 300 pages longer than it needed to be. Numenera, however, is a masterpiece. ..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Reading Numenera, all I can say is that it is a shame that Monte didnt stay on longer. A lot of these mechanics would have made 5e more dynamic and feel more like its own version of the game. Like more of a progression as opposed to a rehashing.

Anybody else see any parallels between the 2 games? Or thoughts on Numenera mechanics you wish made it to 5e?



Yeah man, I'm actually pretty bummed that I didn't get in on the Kickstarter. Of all the streamlined, really simple systems out there, Numenera seems like the best. That's not always what I want, but when I do, I'll probably be picking up Numenera to do it.

also, kinda funny how crits are being done. The "improvise an extra effect" thing is something I'm doing in my own system, which uses greater and amazing successes, but the principle is the same. Just kinda made me smile.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
I just ordered the game based on this thread and what I saw on their website...I am glad that the OP brought it up.
I can't get passed the space/sci-fi setting, so if someone can translate this into D&D w/o spelljammer that would be nice
I can't get passed the space/sci-fi setting, so if someone can translate this into D&D w/o spelljammer that would be nice



Honestly, you should be able to literally just play this game with whatever setting you want.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
I can't get passed the space/sci-fi setting, so if someone can translate this into D&D w/o spelljammer that would be nice



Honestly its a lot like D&D thematically, except a lot of the ruins you explore were originally from highly developed civilizations, not just quasi-medieval ones. The feel is not so different. I cant really call it sci-fi. Its somewhere along the lines of Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, if even the adults had no idea what cars and planes were.
Limiting the number of potions you can carry sounds pretty nice.

They should add that.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I paged through it a bit and it seemed pretty setting-neutral but otherwise nothing really jumped out at me as good (though again, limited viewing). I did pick up a copy of 13th Age but haven't had a chance to dig in to it yet.
I can't get passed the space/sci-fi setting, so if someone can translate this into D&D w/o spelljammer that would be nice



Honestly, you should be able to literally just play this game with whatever setting you want.

If something called cyphers is hard coded to the rules, I can't do that.

If the explanation of why I'm only allowed one type of person in a party is because of some sci-fi thingy, I also can't do that.  Not without a translation atleast. 
I can't get passed the space/sci-fi setting, so if someone can translate this into D&D w/o spelljammer that would be nice



Honestly, you should be able to literally just play this game with whatever setting you want.

If something called cyphers is hard coded to the rules, I can't do that.

If the explanation of why I'm only allowed one type of person in a party is because of some sci-fi thingy, I also can't do that.  Not without a translation atleast. 



They're called cyphers but the system does beg for reskinning. For instance, in Eberron I could see them as dragonshards scavanged from eldritch machines.

As far as 1 type of person per group. It would not throw off the game to have 2 or 3 of the same type. Honestly, while I'm sure it's probably in the text, I didn't even see that rule when I skimmed through it.

I'd also add, since it's different from D&D, that the default exp gain is from discovery rather than killing. So if a party goes out of their way to find monsters the default rules don't grant xp (directly) for the kill.
Most of my RPG time is Star Wars Edge of the Empire right now, which, once you get over the learning curve of the dice, is a good system.  I won't have much time for Numenera or 13th Age, although I'll play them when I can as both are good too.  I don't see any time for D&D on the horizon as I don't see it being better than any of those 3 games, so why would I play it?

@mikemearls don't quite understand the difference

I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down. - Eric Cartman

Enough chitchat!  Time is candy! - Pinky Pie

Most of my RPG time is Star Wars Edge of the Empire right now, which, once you get over the learning curve of the dice, is a good system.  I won't have much time for Numenera or 13th Age, although I'll play them when I can as both are good too.  I don't see any time for D&D on the horizon as I don't see it being better than any of those 3 games, so why would I play it?



 Not an uncommon attitude. A few years back D&D was it but now with retroclones, Pathfinder, 13th Age, Numenera and Star Wars and D&D fans of all editions prepared to play them.....

 I suspect soon there will be 3 major companies left (Paizo, WoTC, Fantasy Flight Games), Numenera and 13th age as the contenders.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I am very interested in Numenera also, but FFG Star Wars RP realty has my attention right now and I still love 4e (and haven't played in a while). I do plan to pick up Numenera soon.

 Any Edition

I am reluctant to buy anything unless they provide a full package, which at a minimum would be a players, DM and monster book, campaign setting, and a series of adventures to get you through the majority of levels presented in the system. From my intitial look at Numenera, it is too simple for my tastes, as I am not looking for a simple abstract system that is more free form. I guess I am lazy. I want the system to do the majority of work for the DM, which means content, content, and then a little more content.
I was a kickstarter backer of numenera.   One thing people need to realize is that a new game has no legacy.  It has no expectations.  That is Numenera.  D&D does have a legacy and it does have expectations.

If a fantasy version of Numenera were released as D&D, I would be enraged.  That has nothing to do with whether I like Numenera or not (which I do mostly).  I don't for a second though think that Numenera (even a fantasy rules version) is D&D.  

I think if you are a real true blue 4e guy who likes ToTM then you'll love 13th Age.  I get annoyed every time I read two pages of it.  I own that too by the way :-).  I do think they have some good parts but mechanics are not what I like about them.  

Numenera is super simple and really has a core mechanic for all classes.  It is very flavorful in my opinion.  The mad max thunderdome comment is close but the previous world was star trek and/or star wars and not our modern government.   The game is all about the loot.  Numenera is their word for "magic" items.  So the title of the game is Magic Items.  Except the items are super technology and not magic of course.

I will likely play a campaign to see how I like it.  It's not D&D though so I will still watch 5e to see where it goes.  I won't touch 13th Age other than to steal ideas.

 

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If I could afford it, I would have Numenera already. I am a fan of Monte Cooke's design ideas. I have 2 copies of his World of Darkness sourcebook, and actively prefer it over nWoD...(no offense to fans of the new books) I like his take on different backgrounds for the various supernatural races over that of the regular WoD mythology as a whole...so Numenera kinda has the same kinda feel.

When you describe it as like Mad Max, but where the previous civilization was in more of the Star Trek/Star Wars era of tech, it makes me liken it to Gamma World, but probably without the massive Mutations iconic of that system. 
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i got my hands on a pdf copy so here hoping its good im gonna check it out tonight
good luck mike, let us know how it goes!

I'm always into newer and more interesting RPGs (new to Me, not necessarily new as in Modern rules, I like severall older systems, best space based system in My opinion ever to come out to play was Star Frontiers, afterall) 
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One thing people need to realize is that a new game has no legacy.  It has no expectations.  That is Numenera.  D&D does have a legacy and it does have expectations.

If a fantasy version of Numenera were released as D&D, I would be enraged.  That has nothing to do with whether I like Numenera or not (which I do mostly).  I don't for a second though think that Numenera (even a fantasy rules version) is D&D.  



 


Nobody is confused. Nobody in the entire thread thinks its D&D. Show me these "people" that dont understand.

You seem to be eternally searching for arguments that arent there. You being hypothetically 'enraged' about imaginary issues is a complete non sequitur and is honestly off topic. Like waaaaay way off topic. I will try to help you get back on track from your imaginary rage. The topic is about what mechanics might have found their way into 5e, or are already there to some extent. Like bounded accuracy, and the feat/skill bundles.

You should also remember that while D&D does have a legacy and expectations, it has also done things in a variety of ways. Ask a 1e, 2e, 3e, or 4e fan what they expect from a skills system, and you will likely get different answers. Thats bc D&D's skill systems have varied wildly over the years. 3e's "point buy" rank system doesnt look squat like AD&D. An OD&D player might just ask you what the hell you are talking about. So there is still design space in D&D, bc not every edition handles every single thing the same. So you are kind of both off-topic and wrong at the same time.
I believe Monte would have released a fantasy game, but since the market is so crowded, he decided to take the other route via magic as science. Which overall, I will agree on 100 percent, to bring any type of common basis for mundane and magic to start speaking the same language. Versus it is magic just accept it can do anything without any common basis or reasoning.
If I could afford it, I would have Numenera already. I am a fan of Monte Cooke's design ideas. I have 2 copies of his World of Darkness sourcebook, and actively prefer it over nWoD...(no offense to fans of the new books) I like his take on different backgrounds for the various supernatural races over that of the regular WoD mythology as a whole...so Numenera kinda has the same kinda feel.

When you describe it as like Mad Max, but where the previous civilization was in more of the Star Trek/Star Wars era of tech, it makes me liken it to Gamma World, but probably without the massive Mutations iconic of that system. 



He actually has a form of mutation.  The iron wind is a field of nanites that restructure things at a molecular level (maybe atomic who knows).   He also has super advanced numenera that fuse with human tissue, super advanced medical machines, etc...  It really is wide open which is why I think it captures the right feel for a roleplaying game based on exploration.

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