Thank you Wizards of the Coast...

There are a lot of people on these forums, no matter what edition of D&D we are talking about, that simply state the same thing over and over "This game sucks, I am going to quit etc etc etc"

Well, I for one, have been playing D&D since 1979. While I cannot say that I have loved everything the companies TSR and WotC have produced, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Dungeons and Dragons has had a positive influence on my life. I have lost count of the countless hours of fun and laughter my friends and I have had. I even met the love of my life while playing D&D, and together we run a very fun and successful D&D Next gaming group.

So, how about a change of pace from the usual "blah blah blah...broken...blah...blah..blah bad design drama" and actually take the time to say a simple "Thank you" to WotC for all of their hard work and determination?

Here - I'll even show you how its done: "Thank you Wizards of the Coast for all the hard work you have done to keep Dungeons and Dragons alive and well. We look forward to D&D Next and all the adventures yet to come"

(Now was that so hard?)
Thanx

Well, I for one, have been playing D&D since 1979. While I cannot say that I have loved everything the companies TSR and WotC have produced, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Dungeons and Dragons has had a positive influence on my life. I have lost count of the countless hours of fun and laughter my friends and I have had.



Unless WotC employees are running your games for you, it sounds like that the cause of your fun was you, the people you game with, and Gary Gygax for creating the genre. You made the game fun, not WotC.

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

Thanks!
Thank you WOTC for doing an amazing job on D&D Next so far!  I've really enjoyed the system and how WOTC has presented it to us.  Doing a playtest for free to let us experience the system in the early stages and gathering feedback is huge to me and I got to say it's paid off a lot.  Also, with WOTC doing weekly articles on the direction of the playtest, live streaming sessions of us to watch, podcast on the sessions discussing the game and the Q&A's they have done has been great.  I really look foward to the final product of D&D Next and plan on playing it for many years.
Yeah, I'm on board with this ;).

It isn't just WotC I'd like to thank though.  There's been a ton of stuff I've enjoyed over the years.  Some favorites:  

I'd like to thank Ed Greenwood for the Forgotten Realms.  And Jeff Grub for the idea to buy the setting for TSR.  My first actual campaign was set in the Realms, and later, also one of my longest.

While talking settings, I'd like to thank the people who worked on settings like Spelljammer, Dark Sun and Eberron.  Only got to play Dark Sun (a bit) late in 3e and more in 4e.  Great setting.  Eberron, I finally got a chance in 4e.  All great settings I've had fun with.

= = =

I'm thankful for v3.5.  I have a nearly complete collection of the hardcovers (everything except Eberron). Not my favorite game (I always seemed to struggle with the rules).  The game was fun though and that's what counts.  I wanted to be a part of it.

I'm thankful for 4e.  I absolutey love the lore of the game.  The World Axis cosmology, re-imagined tieflings and devas, primordial vs. deity (Dawn War), all that jazz.  It took a while but the mechanics of the game eventually grew on me as well.  I think I love 4e as much as I do because it's *different*, not just more of the same.  By the same token however, I can see the *likeness* in the lore and in the mechanics.

I'm thankful for DDN because it's a more traditional game of D&D.  The playtest I'm not a fan of but I'm anxious to see the final game; it's been shaping up nicely I think.  So yeah ;), I enjoy both 4e and Next, but for very different reasons.  WotC needs a new game (DDN) more than I do.  Still, I have ideas for a game like 4e and I have ideas for a game like DDN.

I don't believe Next will ever be my favorite game but it should serve it's purpose.  That's been the case with every version of D&D though (with the exception of 4e).  I enjoy follow the lore (from system to system even), seeing what's  changed, what's stayed the same.  The mechanics come and go though; they've never been a focus for me. 

= = =

This, is what I'm most thankful for.  I'm thankful for creative people who use their skill and talent to create something interesting and fun, something I couldn't do myself.  They don't necessarily need to work on D&D stuff, but they do.  I mean they could write novels, or screenplays, big money stuff, yeah?  I'm just thankful they have the same interests I do -- that they're not in it just for the money, fame or whatnot ;).
/\ Art
Thankyou WOTC. Smile
Thanks WoTC for giving us the opportunity to participate and playtest an edition of D&D in developement for the first time!
Do people normally thank companies for trying to take their money?  I mean, I typically reserve thanks for people who've done me a kindness.


The playtest had an interesting approach and not fully understood/appreciated, however, I am glad I played and gave feedback.

Do people normally thank companies for trying to take their money?  I mean, I typically reserve thanks for people who've done me a kindness.





 

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

Thanks for finally fixing the X button on the message that pops up after reporting someone, WotC. It's nice to be able to close that without having to refresh the page.

Stop the H4TE

Thanks WoTC for taking the time to collect data to determine what playstyles and features people like in D&D.   Keep working hard to make D&D Next an edition with "legs".   

Thanks to everyone in the community for sharing ideas and reactions, especially when they have been constructive.

I'm looking forward to the last playtest package and then eventual release of a fully supported D&D.   I don't care what editions it draws from, I just want it to be fun, fast and flexible.

Cheers.         

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

Do people normally thank companies for trying to take their money?  I mean, I typically reserve thanks for people who've done me a kindness.



I think Gygaz, Mentzer, Dave Cook, Kuntz, Ward, Lakofka, and many of those other old guys have been very kind to me over the years.
In all seriousness, this playtest has been unique in the annals of tabletop gaming. Usually, a game designer is designing either for their 30 friends, 'fixing' problems with previous editions, or more recently, responding to forums.  This is all well and good if you're the designer of a teeny-tiny niche game, but if you're D&D, you have to think bigger. You're a cultural icon. People grew up with you, they learned to socialize with you, they got their friends through you.

There are Third Generation D&D players out there now. I taught my friends' kids how to play D&D, people teach it in schools,  there are 10-year old players out there. I'm in my mid-thirties, I'm married to a wonderful lady, and our weekly DnD game has been a great way to keep in touch with busy friends. 

The playtest has been a stroke of genius. Instead of guess what players want, why not ask them? And don't trust the forums-- a teeny, tiny minority shouts extra loudly because they are a teeny, tiny minority. So when you get 150,000 people downloading your playtest, if even 10% respond to you, you've learned more about your playbase than you would from ten years of conventions. 

WOTC has pulled a 180 from where they were in 2008, and that takes guts (or a shrinking marketshare, but we'll call it guts to stay positive). 

Wow, touchy are we?  Ignore lists are crutches for those who think they're entitled to not encounter an opposite point of view.



I'd say they can be used that way. But they can also be used to shut out people who always resort to personal insults and other unpleasant surrogates for reason.  I.e., people who like to start off their posts with "You are completely wrong."

"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
This thread is supposed to be about thanking WOTC. Perhaps it should be left at that. There are many other threads to discuss peoples differences in, heck, go create one if there isn't one to your liking.
You Learn Something New Every Day!
This thread is supposed to be about thanking WOTC. Perhaps it should be left at that. There are many other threads to discuss peoples differences in, heck, go create one if there isn't one to your liking.



+1

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

How about I thank people.

Thank you Gary Gygax, you are with out a doubt one of the most influential people on my life throughout the years and I never even had a chance to meet you. 

Thank you Dave Arneson you often get over shadowed by Gary but we all know how important you were.

Thank you Rob Heinsoo for making 4e I love it and so do many other people don't believe the internet trolls, you made one of the best RPG's that has ever existed.

Thank you Jonathan Tweet, Skip Williams, and Monte Cook for d20/3rd edition/and the OGL.  You forever changed the entire RPG community, and ensured D&D will live on forever no matter who has the copy rights to the name.

Thank you R.A Salvatore for the first 6 Drizzt books, but you should have known when to stop.

Thank you  Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis for all of Dragonlance.

Thank you  Keith Baker for Eberron hands down my all time favorite setting, you are the man.

Thank you to all the DM's I have played under even the bad ones every game was a new experience.

Thank you to all the players that have sat at my table or next to at anothers this game is nothing without you.

Now I will not thank a company for publishing a game, I thanked them in the only way they care about when I gave them my money. 

Remember this is a public forum where people express their opinions assume there is a “In my humble opinion” in front of every post especially mine.  

 

Things you should check out because they are cool, like bow-ties and fezzes.

https://app.roll20.net/home  Roll20 great free virtual table top so you can play with old friends who are far away.

http://donjon.bin.sh/  Donjon has random treasure, maps, pick pocket results, etc.. for every edition of D&D.

How about I thank people.

Thank you Gary Gygax, you are with out a doubt one of the most influential people on my life throughout the years and I never even had a chance to meet you. 

Thank you Dave Arneson you often get over shadowed by Gary but we all know how important you were.

Thank you Rob Heinsoo for making 4e I love it and so do many other people don't believe the internet trolls, you made one of the best RPG's that has ever existed.

Thank you Jonathan Tweet, Skip Williams, and Monte Cook for d20/3rd edition/and the OGL.  You forever changed the entire RPG community, and ensured D&D will live on forever no matter who has the copy rights to the name.

Thank you R.A Salvatore for the first 6 Drizzt books, but you should have known when to stop.

Thank you  Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis for all of Dragonlance.

Thank you  Keith Baker for Eberron hands down my all time favorite setting, you are the man.

Thank you to all the DM's I have played under even the bad ones every game was a new experience.

Thank you to all the players that have sat at my table or next to at anothers this game is nothing without you.

Now I will not thank a company for publishing a game, I thanked them in the only way they care about when I gave them my money. 




+1 
Khyber is a dark and dangerous place, full of flame and smoke, where ever stranger things lie dormant.
In all seriousness, this playtest has been unique in the annals of tabletop gaming. Usually, a game designer is designing either for their 30 friends, 'fixing' problems with previous editions, or more recently, responding to forums.  This is all well and good if you're the designer of a teeny-tiny niche game, but if you're D&D, you have to think bigger. You're a cultural icon. People grew up with you, they learned to socialize with you, they got their friends through you.

There are Third Generation D&D players out there now. I taught my friends' kids how to play D&D, people teach it in schools,  there are 10-year old players out there. I'm in my mid-thirties, I'm married to a wonderful lady, and our weekly DnD game has been a great way to keep in touch with busy friends. 

The playtest has been a stroke of genius. Instead of guess what players want, why not ask them? And don't trust the forums-- a teeny, tiny minority shouts extra loudly because they are a teeny, tiny minority. So when you get 150,000 people downloading your playtest, if even 10% respond to you, you've learned more about your playbase than you would from ten years of conventions. 

WOTC has pulled a 180 from where they were in 2008, and that takes guts (or a shrinking marketshare, but we'll call it guts to stay positive). 



+1

Following Agile is not a new thing in general though, and it is highly effective for a complex design process to isolate exactly what the client really wants, even despite noisy and often contradictory design goals and functional requirements.

It doesn't take guts to stand up to a tiny minority on a forum, it's just good business sense what they're doing. They're doing it out of self-interest, i.e. self-preservation.

If they had had a year of public playtests for 4e instead of that one little adventure, it likely would not have been AT ALL like what was published, and we wouldn't be here today.

It's very democratic. In a democracy or a representative republic, you govern only with the consent of the governed. Having a modular, inclusive approach to Next is in a sense, the equivalent of a Constitutional Republic that protects, if not guarantees, the rights of the minorities are preserved. And it's highly dubious that there even is such a right, e.g. to have all PCs be effectively immortal or heal to max after every battle with no healing potions. It's the will of the masses vs the will of a few fringe individuals here, that matters.

And even if D&D Next didn't take into account minority preferences at all (like 4e, which had ZERO optional rules in the PHB, AFAIK), it is still undoubtedly better to live in a pure democracy catering to the will of the many, rather than the will of the few, or the one, than be governed by tyranny of the minority. Democracy is like mob rule, Constitutional republics are like Modular Games, you allow the minority to be the way they want to be, unmolested by their desire to deviate from the norm. That's a plus, and I'm sure in the 21st century hardly controversial (at least in a western-based website). 

Catering to the vocal minority of the few, to the detriment of the game as a whole, should be called what it is : pandering. Even if you could design a system that makes everyone happy, through dials and knobs, you will STILL get minority opinions trying to impose their will on the majority.

That's just another form of tyrannical behavior, and we see that in these forums constantly. Just be content you HAVE a dial to tune things. And in the end, you can always houserule or even play a game better suited to your tastes.

D&D fans want their game defaults back. They want their PCs not to be bloated with hit points to be nigh unkillable and heal to full. They don't want to have to pull out a grid and spend an hour for every little skirmish. They don't want to roll their eyes when their friend's non-magical class is doing insanely implausible things that ruins their immersion. The feedback has already spoken about these things, and thus we see the rules confirming the biases that the majority wants.
Oblivion, do you think you're actually accomplising anything? Do you think you're going to single-handedly save D&D from its fans? How about you look in the mirror, oh Mr if it's not 4e, it's garbage temper tantrums.

My opinion is that of inclusiveness, but implementing that via making fringe elements non-default. That's exactly the way it should work.



+1

You forgot to suggest that actual feedback might help.  You know like actual feedback on rules instead of his normal "I hate enverything about 5e" "feedback".

Of course the General Discussion board would be nothing but cricket noises and the far off sound of wind if all the people who did not actually give any actionable feedback beyond "I hates it cause it's not my favorite edition" stopped posting.
Its hard to give feedback for improvement when the game is wrong from top to bottom, or for things that aren't present. How do you give advice to improve something that isn't there?
...whatever
Oh and thank you TSR for getting me into roleplaying with 2nd ed, though that's shared equally with the original WFRP.  

Thank you TSR for Planescape and Dark Sun

Thank you WOTC for 3rd edition and 3.5.  I didn't actually like those rules sets but through them I maintained years of fun games with my friends.

Thank you WOTC for 4th edition because even though I didn't like that rules set as a whole it's a gold mine of rich, original ideas and sub-systems I love (skills, 4th ed versions of saves, multiple classes getting buffs, etc).

Thank you WOTC for 5th ed, the first DnD system I actually mostly like.  And for providing a year of free entertainment for my (formerly two and now only one) roleplaying group(s).  
You forgot to suggest that actual feedback might help.  You know like actual feedback on rules instead of his normal "I hate enverything about 5e" "feedback".

Of course the General Discussion board would be nothing but cricket noises and the far off sound of wind if all the people who did not actually give any actionable feedback beyond "I hates it cause it's not my favorite edition" stopped posting.



Almost everyone whose name I recognize on these forums -- and that is a LOT of people -- have given feedback one way or another beyond 'I hate 5th'.  There was a lot of that after the first packet, and not nearly as much since.  Can we please drop this mythical 'group of posters' who actually don't really exist?  If not, can we stop attributing false strawmen like 'its not my favorite edition so it sucks' to them?  Not every single post need have the same list of feedback, so long as they themselves are indeed offering some.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

see above posts.



Even if a single poster, or a small group of them, isn't offering constant feedback doesn't mean they -never- do.  That's all I'm talking about (and hence why I said its mythical).  Even TCO has offered usable feedback.  It often just gets shouted down by the same groups, but it -is- there.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

There always should be a certain level of respect for developers even if one doesn't like their work (or personally like them). Yeah, this place isn't that bad but it still has the ring of truth to some peoples stance on the game. I admit, I'm not enjoying the playtest much anymore but I just hang it up and move on. Some of hardcores need to realize the game won't be what we wish it to be ever... hmmm this article may be able to help some here if they're familiar with Everquest at all.

 

I just said something and you just read it. Sorry about that.

I was talking to some people about this at encounters wednesday night.  Had they put 4e through the rigor of the 5e playtest, they then would have been able to identify that there was a large portion of the community that did not want to play D&D in that style. 

I think if they did that we would not necessarily be in this phase of next.  In all likelihood we probably would have gotten something like Star Wars saga, which brought lots of modern ideas, but catered to the classic playstyles as well.



CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
see above posts.



Even if a single poster, or a small group of them, isn't offering constant feedback doesn't mean they -never- do.  That's all I'm talking about (and hence why I said its mythical).  Even TCO has offered usable feedback.  It often just gets shouted down by the same groups, but it -is- there.




Huh.  On the general discussion forums, the most posted on and frequented of the Next boards, my anecdotal experience has been the opposite.  A handful of posters such as Lokiare and Cyber Dave and Lawolf give nonstop crunchy feedback with numbers and actual suggestions for changes.  The majority of the rest fall into three camps: the smallest "I mostly like Next" camp, the larger "I make relentlessly negative comments camp and have been predicting doom and gloom from the beginning camp, and the slim middle ground camp of "It's okay."  Any positive threads are immediately visited by all the negative people saying negative things whilst on the negative threads anything positive that's said is just frowned at and argued with.  

So anecdotes, huh. 
Had they put 4e through the rigor of the 5e playtest, they then would have been able to identify that there was a large portion of the community that did not want to play D&D in that style. 


Given 4e was a massive success, I'd say people did want that playstyle.
Had they put 4e through the rigor of the 5e playtest, they then would have been able to identify that there was a large portion of the community that did not want to play D&D in that style. 


Given 4e was a massive success, I'd say people did want that playstyle.



I didn't say it was or was not a success.  Massive success is obviously an overstatement.  Was it successful?  Yes.  Was it successful enough?  Maybe it would have been if they playtested it in the same way and realized there were many that did not want that play style.  D&D would probably be making enough money for them if they had a public playtest. 

As it is they handed the ball to PAIZO to cater to those players.  WOTC would not be making 5e if 4e was a massive success.  That is not the same as saying it was unsuccessful.



CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
Huh.  On the general discussion forums, the most posted on and frequented of the Next boards, my anecdotal experience has been the opposite.  A handful of posters such as Lokiare and Cyber Dave and Lawolf give nonstop crunchy feedback with numbers and actual suggestions for changes.  The majority of the rest fall into three camps: the smallest "I mostly like Next" camp, the larger "I make relentlessly negative comments camp and have been predicting doom and gloom from the beginning camp, and the slim middle ground camp of "It's okay."  Any positive threads are immediately visited by all the negative people saying negative things whilst on the negative threads anything positive that's said is just frowned at and argued with.  

So anecdotes, huh. 



If you limit your definition of usable feedback to purely crunch, then sure, virtually no one has ever offered anything of use.  Also, over time the numbers of who has liked and disliked Next has shifted quite a lot; at present, it seems most are neutral-to-slightly-in-favor.  Take this very thread as an indicator, as well as some of the others regarding the end of the playtest.  The 'gloom and doom from the beginning' are mainly (but not entirely) those who felt the crunch should come first (and, although I started anti-math, I'm not convinced anymore that they wrong).

But the number of us who have given feedback on things -other- than pure crunch have still given feedback.  To argue this is to state that the very reason for culling the playtest -- that they have enough feedback -- is based solely on the responses of 3-5 posters who talk crunch, especially since none of the surveys have mentioned crunch in the slightest.  It just seems like a very odd position to take.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

WOTC would not be making 5e if 4e was a massive success.


The same could be said of any edition before 4e.

Meaning all editions, 3.x and4e included, were approxmiately equally successful.
Thanks for 4e and for keeping up the game.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/23.jpg)

WOTC would not be making 5e if 4e was a massive success.


The same could be said of any edition before 4e.

Meaning all editions, 3.x and4e included, were approxmiately equally successful.



Could it?

AD&D 1977-1989 (And they changed to the next to clean up the rules, according to Zeb cook)
BECMI 1979-1989 (in different forms, eventually the Cyclopedia)
2nd edition 1989-1999 (and management drove that into the ground)
3rd edition 2000-2008 (with an update)
4e 2008-2012 (with support), 2013 (supoort has waned);

If we go by those numbers 4e does not seem to be as massively successful as the others.  It also didn't have Lorraine Williams running it into the ground, to make a new edition via a buy out.)  There were mistakes made with 4e but they were not financial.  Arguably they were marketing.






CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
Thanks for 4e and for keeping up the game.



Thats worthy...
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

The thing is that other companies don't want to be "left alone" they want your business. It's one thing to badger fans of a company, who do want to be left alone with thier preference, but it's quite another to give feedback. Good companies do care about consumer feedback, because it helps thier sales to improve problems from older problems with their product.

And yes, companies do have to prove things to thier customers if they want thier business. Whether it's a restaraunt, a software company or an automobile manufacturer, they need to put out a product that you want to buy. Otherwise the sale goes to their competitiors. It's really that simple.


Thanks to WotC, for all their effort and endevour. In particular, their commendable bravery in instituting public playtests of their new 5E material. If it had been me, I'd never have done this, but that they did shows an openness and vulnerability that deserves to be respected. Glad that the public playtests are over, though. And thanks for D&D in general. It's a great game.
@criticalhits     

Surveys report increasing satisfaction with rules. Final public playtest in mid-September. Work on game not done, but enough public feedback


Since the majority of respondents think it's going in the right direction and are satisfied, and you are increasingly vexed and dissatisfied, does it not dawn on you that perhaps you're mistaken about being in the minority? I'm waiting for it to sink in....



Survivorship Bias is a likely cause of the increasing satisfaction - i.e. people who like where Next is going and feel that their needs are being listened to are much more likely to keep responding than those who don't like where Next is going and feel that they're not be listened to.

Given the structure of the survey, I'm not sure how he eliminates for this.
Thanks for 4e and for keeping up the game.



You're about 5 years late to the party for that one.
Being thankful, or grace, is good for the soul.

Even if you don't like what's on offer, being grateful is good.
There's also the possibility that a lot of people genuinely are satisfied with the playtest and the direction is going. Obviously not most of the people on the forums, but the forums likely isn't representative of the playtesting population as a whole. There were over 150,000 downloads and while I'm certain some of them were the same person downloading more than once (such as me), that's still going to be a crap ton of more people than are on the forums. There are almost certainly going to be differences between the entire population that plays the packet, those that also completed surveys, and those that also get on the forums.

From what I've noticed, the forums has a lot of people who dislike Next and are extremely vocal about it. Absurdly vocal about it. There are also some good posters and positive posters, but it's easier to see the preponderance of negativity and hatred about, especially due to how vocal they are. I never thought they were representative of the playtesters as a whole and the results Mike references suggest that my suspicion was and still is correct.
Do you have an opinion on what campaign settings should be printed in D&D Next? If so, please cast your votes in this poll! Poll: What campaign settings do you want to see printed in D&D Next?
Sign In to post comments