5E is dead, stick a fork in it

After the last playtest packet, we're almost done with the classes, races, and other core elements of the game.



So, if your opinion is that the current playtest sucks and isn't something you ever would buy or play, then 5E is at this point dead in the water as its more or less "done"?
...whatever
That doesnt mean that the last packet is what were looking at for finals.

We know the in house playtesting looks very different to what we have now and all that quote says to me is that last packet gave them the information they were after to work on finalisation.

I'm all for nay saying with just cause but its the D&D marketing that I have the least faith in, the product I would never pronounce dead till I see the final product.
I would personally wait and see the build-your-own-subclass rules and what multiclassing ends up looking like before I declared it dead-dead.
Is dead-dead d&d? *que cheesey joke music*
Oblivion, I'd like to point out how almost done the classes have been for months, and yet each packet heavily revises class mechanics. "Almost done" seems to mean anything from 51-99% done.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
After 4e, I believe D&D can release anything and survive.   I think 5e is a big improvement for me.   

I have no idea whether the game itself will do well enough or not.   I think it will be acceptable as a game for a larger group of people than in the past but will that be enough I don't know given Pathfinder has a very loyal following.

 

My Blog which includes my Hobby Award Winning articles.

I probably should have pointed out for me 5e is a good step in the right direction, it has its niggles and issues but there isnt an edition that doesn't.

As long as they release a decent final product (and it would take a big turn around to change my mind) I will be buying and playing the game. I know there are a lot of the less vocal people who feel this way and I'm optimistic we will be satisfied.
I think that we saw only vancian spellcasters because vancian is a nightmare to insert in a game and it needed a lot of work.
If I'm right, then DDN may interest me a lot.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

I'm glad the casualoblivion has put his stamp of disapproval on this game.  If he were hailing it as the great edition of D&D ever, I'd probably not even bother looking at 5e.

I see plenty though on all sides of the fence liking this game.   

 

My Blog which includes my Hobby Award Winning articles.

I see a lot of people from all directions disliking the game.
...whatever
Most of the issues people are upset with are math fixes, rules adjustments, feature updates, and minor tweets.

Minor stuff. 

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Most of the issues people are upset with are math fixes, rules adjustments, feature updates, and minor tweets.

Minor stuff. 

Stuff like being unhappy with PC customization being gutted compared to 3E/4E and the retro/nostalgia focus of 5E not being what you want out of D&D are not minor.

...whatever
 till I see the final product.



I agree, wait until the final version. You never know what "tweeks" or overhauls are going to come between now and the print book.

Dale McCoy

President of Jon Brazer Enterprises

Read my D&D 5E Blog and sign up for our D&D 5E Newsletter

After the last playtest packet, we're almost done with the classes, races, and other core elements of the game.



So, if your opinion is that the current playtest sucks and isn't something you ever would buy or play, then 5E is at this point dead in the water as its more or less "done"?

I really don't think that means what you think it means.


IMO: class/sub-class, race/sub-race, ability score/feat structure is done.  As well as the 6 ability scores, d20 base, advantage mechanic, overall bounded accuracy, overall exploration rules, and math (which we havn't seen yet), short/long rest, and the like.


Any individual race,class,spell,feat (i.e. dwarf's armor, fighter's second wind, wish, arcane archer), it still up for grabs.  TWF, and Skills too.

Not to mention more modules (healing) and classes (bard), and sub-classes (warlord).


In short, they only finished laying the foundation.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Most of the issues people are upset with are math fixes, rules adjustments, feature updates, and minor tweets.

Minor stuff. 

Stuff like being unhappy with PC customization being gutted compared to 3E/4E and the retro/nostalgia focus of 5E not being what you want out of D&D are not minor.

Wait till you see the custom sub-class rules.

Then complain.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

After the last playtest packet, we're almost done with the classes, races, and other core elements of the game.



So, if your opinion is that the current playtest sucks and isn't something you ever would buy or play, then 5E is at this point dead in the water as its more or less "done"?

I really don't think that means what you think it means.


IMO: class/sub-class, race/sub-race, ability score/feat structure is done.  As well as the 6 ability scores, d20 base, advantage mechanic, overall bounded accuracy, overall exploration rules, and math (which we havn't seen yet), short/long rest, and the like.


Any individual race,class,spell,feat (i.e. dwarf's armor, fighter's second wind, wish, arcane archer), it still up for grabs.  TWF, and Skills too.

Not to mention more modules (healing) and classes (bard), and sub-classes (warlord).


In short, they only finished laying the foundation.


Very well said. Not to mention a plethora of extra feats, a skill system, build your own suclasses, casting systems for the mage etc.
The Oberoni fallacy only applies to broken rules, not rules you don't like. If a rule you don't like can be easily ignored, it should exist in the game for those who will enjoy it.
Most of the issues people are upset with are math fixes, rules adjustments, feature updates, and minor tweets.

Minor stuff. 

Stuff like being unhappy with PC customization being gutted compared to 3E/4E and the retro/nostalgia focus of 5E not being what you want out of D&D are not minor.

Wait till you see the custom sub-class rules.

Then complain.



+1 Amen.

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

Most of the issues people are upset with are math fixes, rules adjustments, feature updates, and minor tweets.

Minor stuff. 

Stuff like being unhappy with PC customization being gutted compared to 3E/4E and the retro/nostalgia focus of 5E not being what you want out of D&D are not minor.




DDN's classes are not finished. Subclasses are not done not tested.

As for customization. 3e's customization was broken and required a Master DM or purposely playing bad. 4e fixed customiztion by locking in half the game systems which drove away half the fans.

So there's really nothing major for someone to complain about UNLESS they don't really want a modular game but an update of an old edition.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Most of the issues people are upset with are math fixes, rules adjustments, feature updates, and minor tweets.

Minor stuff. 

Stuff like being unhappy with PC customization being gutted compared to 3E/4E and the retro/nostalgia focus of 5E not being what you want out of D&D are not minor.


DDN's classes are not finished. Subclasses are not done not tested.

As for customization. 3e's customization was broken and required a Master DM or purposely playing bad. 4e fixed customiztion by locking in half the game systems which drove away half the fans.

So there's really nothing major for someone to complain about UNLESS they don't really want a modular game but an update of an old edition.

4e customization =
build a sub-class (forthcoming)
hybrid/1e/2e multiclassing (may not exist)
and magic initiate/adept feats (needs expanded, but it exsists).


So far, it's on the right track.
They even have the first MC feat be good, and the rest suck.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I gotta agree with mellored. When they say done with classes they mean they have an idea of the structure and everything he listed. They don't mean done with as in these things are perfect. They mean that they have down structure and concepts, and a rough idea of mechanics they want classes to have (though some of those may likely cange). The exact tuning on all f it is still in the works.

Though really I don't think TCO is really ever gunna be satisfied with this system, but I could have told you that a long time ago.
Wait till you see the custom sub-class rules.

Then complain.



No...I don't need to wait and see every nook and cranny of the system to determine whether or not it's a steaming pile of hobo sick. I'll complain now, and all the way up until the day 5E is officially canceled.

The excuses that you apologists keep throwing around are a sad and ridiculous fantasy at this point.

13th Age was announced a week before D&D Next was. There are now print versions on store shelves and people are raving about the game.

Monte Cook left the design team for Next to work on his own project, Numenera - and that is now available in PDF.

Both of these games are much, much, much more robust than anything we've seen from the design team of D&DN.

It's time for you to wake up and realize you're getting completely snowed. This whole project is nothing but an elaborate ruse that Mearls is putting on to try and justify why he should still be drawing a paycheck. At best D&D% is vaporware, at worst it's an inevitable failure that will get the D&D roleplaying line discontinued by it's 41st anniversary.

Most of the issues people are upset with are math fixes, rules adjustments, feature updates, and minor tweets.

Minor stuff. 



Getting the fundamental math right starting with reworking the saving throws is not minor stuff.

-Polaris


Edit PS:  Looks like they are going to have to tear out the class progressions AGAIN and try to make them universal to make their multiclass system work.  All this extra work could have been prevented by properly designing the framework first.    
Wait till you see the custom sub-class rules.

Then complain.

No...I don't need to wait and see every nook and cranny of the system to determine whether or not it's a steaming pile of hobo sick. I'll complain now, and all the way up until the day 5E is officially canceled.

True.  You can complain about things without knowing what they are.
Heck, I can complain about what kind of cheese the moon is made of.

But why would you?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

After the last playtest packet, we're almost done with the classes, races, and other core elements of the game.


I'm perhaps a bit more optimistic than oblivion at this point, because I don't think Next is necessarily a bad game, just not to maybe totally suited to my tastes at this point.

But I find it pretty disturbing how much people are spinning "almost done" as meaning "lots of good or important stuff to come yet, so not really almost done at all."

The quote is either an accurate reflection of the progress on Next, in which case those not pleased with it so far might as well pack it in, or else someone was not speaking accurately about the state of the progress, in which case those not pleased with Next so far may want to consider hanging around and holding out hope. 

But "almost done" does not mean "lots of stuff still to come."  What I'm reading sounds like a lot of rationalization going on, and that's not pretty.  On the other hand, if you're happy with Next, there's really no need to rationalize anything.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

13th Age was announced a week before D&D Next was. There are now print versions on store shelves and people are raving about the game.


"People" are, huh?
Go up to 100 "people" on the street.  Hell, go up to a 1,000.  Ask them their opinions of 13th Age.  Notice the completely blank stares as they declare they have no idea what you're talking about.
Now ask those same people what they think of Dungeons & Dragons.  A few may profess ignorance.  A few will disdain the hobby as the realm of nerds.  Significantly more will express either enthusiasm or nostalgia.  Some will agree to being current players, and likely have opinions about DDN.  Very, very, very few will have never heard of it. 
Comparing the fate of D&D to that of a hole-in-the-wall niche product like 13th Age is laughable.

Monte Cook left the design team for Next to work on his own project, Numenera - and that is now available in PDF.


Perform experiment above.  Substitute "Monte Cook" and "Numeria" for "13th Age."  Get same results.

We're talking about a product that has spawned billions upon billions of dollars worth of business, created entire genres of gaming, influenced generations of culture, and which is still getting mention in major publications like the New York Times & Forbes when it announces an edition change.  "Dead?"  Hardly.
Ive seen some good thing in this last packet, but that doesnt mean next has won me over. There is still the issues of weapons, armor, and monsters. I know they said they will fix monsters but have you seen any real improvements yet? Weapons and armor are the major problem I have with next right now(although there are still a few minor), if they cant put a good weapons and armor system in the game than they dont deserve my money.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

Almost done with 3 things about the game does in fact mean tons of stuff left to do.
But I find it pretty disturbing how much people are spinning "almost done" as meaning "lots of good or important stuff to come yet, so not really almost done at all."

That's because you didn't read the second half of the sentence.

"almost done" is associated with "core elements".

Not "almost done" with "the entire game".

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

13th Age was announced a week before D&D Next was. There are now print versions on store shelves and people are raving about the game.


"People" are, huh?
Go up to 100 "people" on the street.  Hell, go up to a 1,000.  Ask them their opinions of 13th Age.  Notice the completely blank stares as they declare they have no idea what you're talking about.


Do the same with D&D basically anywhere other than the USA and Canada, you'll likely get tthe same result.  Tabletop RPGs in general are a laughably niche product compared to most industries.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
But I find it pretty disturbing how much people are spinning "almost done" as meaning "lots of good or important stuff to come yet, so not really almost done at all."

That's because you didn't read the second half of the sentence.

"almost done" is associated with "core elements".

Not "almost done" with "the entire game".



Sorry, almost done with what he listed is pretty much almost done.  You'd be better off trying to argue that he was exaggerating how finished the game is.  I'd believe that more.

There's so much spin here we must be starting to generate electricity.

Believe what you want but when I read someone saying that they're almost done with races, classes and core elements, that sounds to me like the game is almost done.  If that's not what he meant, he should clarify his remarks, because he's giving the wrong impression.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Mearls hasnt been completely straight up with any info. Its his job to spin.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

In part I think they are only showing a portion of the completed game ideas at this point - which includes areas where they want to get feedback (the new fighter being a focus in this packet).  

If you listen to the Q&A it is clear that they have a lot of subclass ideas they have not shown us - they mention Clerics and other Mage power sources.
Personally, I'm more inclined to believe the game IS NOT almost done, not even close, and Mike was unintentionally overstating things.  That's understandable and easy to do if you're enthusastic about the project. 

But maybe some clarification on the progress front would be in order.  Or maybe a milestone-type "State of The Game" announcement.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Do the same with D&D basically anywhere other than the USA and Canada...



I believe that I did specify "major" venues.



Do the same with D&D basically anywhere other than the USA and Canada...



I believe that I did specify "major" venues.




So, you're saying that Eruope and Japan aren't considered "major" venues for you?
So, you're saying that Eruope and Japan aren't considered "major" venues for you?


Me?  Immaterial.  Are they major venues for D&D?  Doubtful.  Those two regions certainly consume a great deal of American culture, so there's an arguable secondary market depending on how well DDN catches on here.  But D&D's fortunes rest primarily on the US & Canada. 
After 4e, I believe D&D can release anything and survive.   I think 5e is a big improvement for me.   

I have no idea whether the game itself will do well enough or not.   I think it will be acceptable as a game for a larger group of people than in the past but will that be enough I don't know given Pathfinder has a very loyal following.

 



It is not as old school as I like, but I believe the edition can do well.  Though I am wondering why the boards are so dead lately compared to the other RPG boards I go to.
I have said it in the first weeks, and will say it again. 5E is screwed because they choose to reinvent the wheel, rather than work from the foundations of 4E. As Polaris and some other people mentioned, they are so messed up by having to rework stuff late in the process because they didn´t figure out the math earlier. 

The most viable idea would be to use 4E structure, that was solid and working, and fix from it. They would have achieved a very similar result in terms of tone and old schoolness, with a foundation that actually works. Adding vancian would be easy, removing powers and making it optional, a piece of cake. Redesigning monster with less HPS for faster combats if that would be the campaign style, not so difficult, at all... Redesigning the whole game from scratch otoh is such a huge task, that most likely the game will be published with colossal holes in it, because they simply didn't have enough time to test, and retest everything. 

If the game will sell because of the all so glorious D&D has in the RPG niche is another discussion, who knows. But IMO the current game could have became so much better if they didn't have the pretension to recreate a game from scratch. 
I have said it in the first weeks, and will say it again. 5E is screwed because they choose to reinvent the wheel, rather than work from the foundations of 4E. As Polaris and some other people mentioned, they are so messed up by having to rework stuff late in the process because they didn´t figure out the math earlier. 

The most viable idea would be to use 4E structure, that was solid and working, and fix from it. They would have achieved a very similar result in terms of tone and old schoolness, with a foundation that actually works. Adding vancian would be easy, removing powers and making it optional, a piece of cake. Redesigning monster with less HPS for faster combats if that would be the campaign style, not so difficult, at all... Redesigning the whole game from scratch otoh is such a huge task, that most likely the game will be published with colossal holes in it, because they simply didn't have enough time to test, and retest everything. 

If the game will sell because of the all so glorious D&D has in the RPG niche is another discussion, who knows. But IMO the current game could have became so much better if they didn't have the pretension to recreate a game from scratch. 



I honestly disagree and am sorry to create another edition war.  I firmly believe with no insult intended to anyone that 4E was a mistake and the best that they can do is build in BECMI/1E/2E with some innovations from 3.x/PF.  And even some things from 4E were clever, but very little.  The best they can do is to distance themselves from the edition that does not even resemble the game and steal some of the cool ideas.
After 4e, I believe D&D can release anything and survive.   I think 5e is a big improvement for me. 



Haha, exactly. They could throw darts at a board, blindfolded, and randomly select rules from 1e to 3e or Pathfinder and have a better set of D&D rules than 4e for me, too.

I love how the 4vengers are all up in arms about that comment, it tickles me with joy because it means my next campaign will be actually D&D and not Pathfinder. Pathfinder has way too many 3.x -isms which I find almost as distasteful as 4e, well, no, not really. I'd rather play a houseruled pathfinder with broken stuff removed or toned down than a houseruled 4e. We'd have to take nearly everything out : surges, AEDU, feat-based multiclassing, 1/2 level scaling, assumed magic item christmass trees baked into the math, giving out free expertise and improved defenses for everyone, buffing enemy damage by a lot, or conversely reducing PC hit points. There are just an entire laundry list of things that Next cleanly washed away, so for me, from the point of view of returning to classic D&D, I'm glad the 4vengers are now declaring Next dead, hopefully that will mean they stop posting in this forum and can move on with their lives, and let the rest of us move on with ours.

The gaming public has spoken, they're catering to us not the fringe holdouts who, let's face it, were never going to be customers of this product anyway.

 
I'm a not spinning anything.

I simply belive merls chose his words poorly, and people jump on it to justify their own feelings. Hardly the first time, and it won't be the last.

Race and class "structure", and core mechanics are almost done.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

So this thread is going exactly as expected.
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