To WotC - Cost of DDI without Dragon and Dungeon

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The title says it all. Could we please have some official word on how much subscriptions for DDI will cost once the magazines go "on hiatus"?

We are paying customers who deserve clarification on this point. If you are stipping out a large portion of the content we are paying for, we should be advised what the new (presumably reduced) subscription price will be.

It would be nice to know if the prior, downloadable issues of Dragon and Dungeon are 'going dark'. I've downloaded and saved all my copies of Dungeon and Dragon and backed them up too.
I don't trust WotC right now concerning DDI

D&D insider is great and I don't mind paying for it. But if Dungeon and Dragon magazine go on hiatus next year, I will not renew my subscription. There would have to be a reduction in the DD insider subscription cost. The character builder, rules compendum and monster builder is not enough to keep my customer loyality. I can't post a comment on the current Dungeon Magazine article and that concerns me.

I'm in the same boat.  I love the CB and Compendium, but those alone aren't worth the continued cost of the sub.  If WotC were to offer maybe a pro-rated rebate or something, that would be cool.  Otherwise, I'll be onboard the USS Cancelled Subscription along with everyone else who's feeling shorted.

Hopefully there's a plan in place to address this.  The smart move would have been to include that with the news about the hiatus, to mitigate the nerdrage that would inevitably follow such an announcement.  I'll try to stay optimistic that it's at least addressed before the end of the year.

I'd like to add my name to this - I've been a subscriber pretty much since the start of D&Di, and I'm generally happy with it. But if Dragon & Dungeon are being cancelled indefinitly without a reflection in the pricing, I probably wouldn't renew my subscription .

Well I feel the fool. My annual subscription expired mid-September. I just renewed it today only to find out the magazines are going on hiatus. Feeling a bit suckered by WotC right now that they charged me full price for a subscription without making any mention that I will now be receiving less content than I was before, and honestly, Dungeon magazine is the main reason I subscribe to DDI.  This just stinks.

 

Right now I feel like the only way we're going to get the company's attention is if we all go the Better Business Bureau (BBB) with our grievances. How can they still charge for an annual subscription knowing they are no longer creating the magazines?

This plus the silverlight issue are making my first steps into the world of dnd seem like a terrible idea. I'm already being charged to roll up worthless character sheets that cannot come with me, be accessed remotly or be updated on the fly, and the scrapping of supplement reading that would likely draw me further in is a nice way of saying that maybe this is not the hobby for me. Unwilling as I am to spend hundreds of dollars and several hours poring over a number of books and chapters just to roll up a character

I still get tons of value out of the CB, MB and Compendium, enough that I feel it's still worth a subscription, so I am renewing this week and I'll wait to see what happens with Dungeon and Dragon and any other future offerings that may result from D&D Next, though I doubt we'll see any Next digital offerings in the next 12 months.

 

I would appreciate, however, a rebate/reduction in price/whatever for the fact that I won't be getting the magazines for some time.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

RedSiegfried wrote:

I still get tons of value out of the CB, MB and Compendium, enough that I feel it's still worth a subscription, so I am renewing this week and I'll wait to see what happens with Dungeon and Dragon and any other future offerings that may result from D&D Next, though I doubt we'll see any Next digital offerings in the next 12 months.

 

I would appreciate, however, a rebate/reduction in price/whatever for the fact that I won't be getting the magazines for some time.

 

This. I've never taken a subscription for a year since I don't trust WotC enough for that (always for 3 months), but I can't see how they mind. More $ for them this way. 

hunterian7 wrote:
I don't trust WotC right now concerning DDI

 

I don't trust WotC right now concerning anything dealing with our pocketbooks.

 

The message they're sending is pretty clear: You can give us all the money you like, but don't expect to actually get anything you want.

Being a DDI-fan for a long time and defending it on multiple occasions, I've finally decided to drop out. It's not so much the hiatus of the e-zines, it's this message I get from WotC: "We don't care!"

Huldvoll

 

---Baron von Bomberg

 

Former DDI subscriber

I'm adding my name to this list as well. I've been paying for ddi since 4e's creation, and ever since the first words "5e" were uttered ive felt like ive been thrown under the bus multiple times. My subscription ends the beginning of next year. unless we get some answers im calling it quits and ill find some other way to update my characters, even if I have to go back to the old hand written goodness and 3x5 cards for my powers. The treatment we are receiving as paying customers is abhorant. I'd love to see someone contact the BBB on this.

I am really concerned that whoever is in charge of PR at WotC just doesn't give a damn about us feeling scammed. That person is so short-sighted he/she doesn't realize this behavoiur is badly damaging 5e even before it comes out. Apparently, they didn't learn from the mediocre 3e/4e transition, which doomed 4e due to haters fed way before it was launched.

 

Way to go, WotC.

[quote="RedHeadSamurai23"]


I'm adding my name to this list as well. I've been paying for ddi since 4e's creation, and ever since the first words "5e" were uttered ive felt like ive been thrown under the bus multiple times. My subscription ends the beginning of next year. unless we get some answers im calling it quits and ill find some other way to update my characters, even if I have to go back to the old hand written goodness and 3x5 cards for my powers. The treatment we are receiving as paying customers is abhorant. I'd love to see someone contact the BBB on this.


[/quote]


 


 


The biggest incident of being thrown under the bus as a 4th fan was how WotC never announced the official end of 4th and quietly stopped producing anything for it. That pissed me off. Plus, D&D Next base rules being miniature-less/grid-less is the ultimate finger to the 4th edition (and oddly the Paizo fan base) fans. 4th edition is solely a grid based rules system with miniatures used to enhance the experience.

Well, here it is.

 

 

This company doesn't need our money anymore.

After reading Ocampo's post I'm really disappointed.

Such hostility from Wizards of the Coast...

I don't see any hostility in WotC's tweet.  Honestly, if you think the subscription without new magazine content is no longer worth its price, then stop subscribing.  If you think it's still worth the price (I'm in this camp), then stop griping.  Of course, for the same price I'd rather have magazine content than not, but that's not the relevant question for the legitimacy of complaints.  The relevant question for legitimacy of complaints is whether they've violated contractual obligations.

CUBPHILDND wrote:

I don't see any hostility in WotC's tweet.  Honestly, if you think the subscription without new magazine content is no longer worth its price, then stop subscribing.  If you think it's still worth the price (I'm in this camp), then stop griping.  Of course, for the same price I'd rather have magazine content than not, but that's not the relevant question for the legitimacy of complaints.  The relevant question for legitimacy of complaints is whether they've violated contractual obligations.

 

I also don't see hostility in the tweet itself. The fact that it is a response on twitter to a query from an individual and not an announcement on the D&D Home page could be regarded at least as contemptuous if not hostile.

 

The point is not just about contractual obligations but what they are actually guaranteeing from now on for the price. Despite the dragon icon next to this post that the ridiculous new forums insist on displaying, I am not a subscriber and haven't been for nearly two months. In order for me to re-subscribe, WotC have to to offer a product I want at a price I am prepared to pay. At the moment, all I can see they are offering is access to 4E tools with no support or updates for the same price they were charging for supported tools plus the magazines. Doesn't seem like a very good deal to me but each to their own.

 

Frankly, D&DI has been a disaster from its inception with bad PR decisions made throughout. I remained a subscriber while 4E was still being supported and while the magazines still had a future but there is no way I will pay the same price for a service that promises far less than I was getting. I do also think it is the height of cynicism for WotC to offer subscriptions, including 12 month subscriptions, without an up front announcement on the home page of the services that are to be canned in the next few months. I sincerely hope this is not a desperate ploy of a desperate company that is trying to persuade its parent company that D&D can make money because beyond D&DI, I can't see how it can have made too much money over the last few years.

CUBPHILDND wrote:

I don't see any hostility in WotC's tweet.  Honestly, if you think the subscription without new magazine content is no longer worth its price, then stop subscribing.  If you think it's still worth the price (I'm in this camp), then stop griping.  Of course, for the same price I'd rather have magazine content than not, but that's not the relevant question for the legitimacy of complaints.  The relevant question for legitimacy of complaints is whether they've violated contractual obligations.

 

If you're offering a service at X cost and you reduce the value of the service, one of four things is going happen:
You explain why the service is still worth X.

You explain why you can't reduce the cost of the service.

You reduce the cost of the service.

Expect lots of griping from people who realize that they either have to use your product or be a pirate. Especially those who don't ever want to be pirates.

 

WotC already has the files for 4e PHB and 4e DMG pdfs. The files are heavily pirated anyway. They should offer one of them up to loyal DDI subscribers for staying throughout the hiatus - it is a show of good faith without really costing them anything. Or give them a big 50% off coupon for one 4e product from drivethrurpg per X amount of time which means they're making additional money without affecting their actual business model. Something meaningful without significant cost to WotC.

I am still smarting from the fact that after paying $300+ for the D&D 3.0/3.5 PCGen datasets that WotC killed the product...

OCAMPO wrote:
This company doesn't need our money anymore.

 

Quite right.

 

The ethos of "we'll cut 75% of what people are paying us for and still charge them full price!" is reason enough for me to tighten my purse-strings when buying services off the website.

 

If I pay money, I'd like to know that they money I pay is actually buying me what I'm paying the money for. 

 

I've already filed a complaint with the BBB. We'll see if anything comes of it.

wetsail wrote:

 

OCAMPO wrote:
This company doesn't need our money anymore.

 

Quite right.

 

The ethos of "we'll cut 75% of what people are paying us for and still charge them full price!" is reason enough for me to tighten my purse-strings when buying services off the website.

 

If I pay money, I'd like to know that they money I pay is actually buying me what I'm paying the money for. 

 

I've already filed a complaint with the BBB. We'll see if anything comes of it.

 

My bet is not much. WotC has announced the discontinuing of the magazines well before hand. You have filed a complaint well before they are stopping the magazine. You are, by your actions, proving that they did not just drop the magazine without advanced notice. They have the right to set the price as they see fit. They could raise the price if they wanted to.

 

You do not need DDI to play 4th edition DnD. It is provided as an extra service. The service is still there if you choose to continue to use it. The magazines do not make the game. They are an additional supplement to the game. The BBB will not tell WotC what products they must produce.

 

You may not realize what the purpose of the BBB is. It is not a governmental body with regulatory authority or law enforcement powers. When you apply for credit, businesses will check with credit bureaus to see how reliable you are before loaning you money. The BBB is a bureau people can check with before doing business with some company. The BBB is not going to down rate some company because a kid is crying about it discontinuing some product they want.

 

If you think their price is too much for the service you are receiving, stop subscribing. If your subscription goes past the date that they stop producing the magazines, they will probably refund the difference.

Well said, Torg_Smith.

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

 

CUBPHILDND wrote:

I don't see any hostility in WotC's tweet.  Honestly, if you think the subscription without new magazine content is no longer worth its price, then stop subscribing.  If you think it's still worth the price (I'm in this camp), then stop griping.  Of course, for the same price I'd rather have magazine content than not, but that's not the relevant question for the legitimacy of complaints.  The relevant question for legitimacy of complaints is whether they've violated contractual obligations.

 

 

If you're offering a service at X cost and you reduce the value of the service, one of four things is going happen:
You explain why the service is still worth X.

You explain why you can't reduce the cost of the service.

You reduce the cost of the service.

Expect lots of griping from people who realize that they either have to use your product or be a pirate. Especially those who don't ever want to be pirates.

 

 

This is ridiculous.  First, option 4 makes no sense.  It's not as if there are extra magazines out there, but now they have to be pirated.  They are ceasing production of the magazines.

 

Second, your list of four options is a false dichotomy anyway: option 5 is that you do nothing (which I admit can be terrible from a PR perspective), and people who no longer find the service worthwhile will stop paying for it, whereas those who do will continue to pay, albeit maybe with some (maybe a lot of) irritation.  (Maybe you meant your options to be about what the company should do, rather than what it will do.)

 

You can see that your list of four options presents a false dichotomy because it clearly doesn't apply in most other areas.  For example, Tropicana recently slightly shrank their orange juice containers; they used to be two quarts, but now they're slightly less than that.  None of the four options you listed occurred; piracy of orange juice doesn't even make sense.

Torg_Smith wrote:

 

 

 

My bet is not much. WotC has announced the discontinuing of the magazines well before hand. You have filed a complaint well before they are stopping the magazine. You are, by your actions, proving that they did not just drop the magazine without advanced notice. They have the right to set the price as they see fit. They could raise the price if they wanted to.

 

You do not need DDI to play 4th edition DnD. It is provided as an extra service. The service is still there if you choose to continue to use it. The magazines do not make the game. They are an additional supplement to the game. The BBB will not tell WotC what products they must produce.

 

You may not realize what the purpose of the BBB is. It is not a governmental body with regulatory authority or law enforcement powers. When you apply for credit, businesses will check with credit bureaus to see how reliable you are before loaning you money. The BBB is a bureau people can check with before doing business with some company. The BBB is not going to down rate some company because a kid is crying about it discontinuing some product they want.

 

If you think their price is too much for the service you are receiving, stop subscribing. If your subscription goes past the date that they stop producing the magazines, they will probably refund the difference.

 

I agree.  While I am of course a bit saddened by the "hiatus "of Dragon and Dungeon,  if you feel scammed, your first port of call would be to contact WotC customer service. When I wanted to cancel my subscription due to the whole monsterbuilder mess, they were very helpful.  

 

 

Mad Scientist

Torg_Smith wrote:
The BBB is not going to down rate some company because a kid is crying about it discontinuing some product they want.

 

Wizards is attempting to not deliver on products guaranteed as part of a subscription service without refunding or lessening the fees paid for said service. They're doing this after many people have already paid for a full year of service, in the middle of many people's paid subscriptions. 

 

That's failure to render services or goods, which is indeed a matter for the BBB, especially because Wizards has clearly demonstrated they don't intend to fix the problem on their own.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're aiming to achieve by defending Wizards here. These are some shifty, non-consumer-friendly practices - do you really want to stand by and let your fellow consumers be scammed?

 

Hell, that's not even what you're doing. You're arguing that we should let Wizards scam us, and that it's entirely within their rights as a business to non-deliver without remuneration. Imagine if Amazon had that kind of ethic.

 

For the record, my subscription ran out this month. I'm still pissed off that any company would do this to its consumers with no apparent remorse, especially one that until recently I've enjoyed patronizing. 

CUBPHILDND wrote:
You can see that your list of four options presents a false dichotomy because it clearly doesn't apply in most other areas.  For example, Tropicana recently slightly shrank their orange juice containers; they used to be two quarts, but now they're slightly less than that.  None of the four options you listed occurred; piracy of orange juice doesn't even make sense.

 

This isn't like Tropicana changing its container size. Well, it could be, but here's what'd have to be the case:

 

I'd have a subscription to Orange Juice. I'd get a specific amount of Orange Juice each month, and I'd have paid a year in advance to make sure my Orange Juice supplies stay constant.

 

Then, Tropicana decided that, hey, that Orange Juice they promised me, for the price I already paid? They'd just be giving me less of it. Nevermind that I already paid my money for the Orange Juice I thought I was getting, and not the lesser quantity I'm now getting instead. Tropicana promised me, the consumer, that they'd give me a certain amount of Orange Juice, and then decided not to deliver on that promise.

 

Well okay, I'm a reasonable consumer. I'll just phone up Tropicana, and tell them I'd like to pay less, or perhaps cancel my subscription to Orange Juice and get the remainder of my money paid back. Oh, but Tropicana said that's a no-go - apparently I can't get my money back, or pay less. They're just taking all the money I already gave them, and only giving me a fraction of the product, and I'm just going to have to deal.

 

Now that I've tortured that metaphor, perhaps you see the problem. More to the point, Dungeon and Dragon constitute the main draws of the Insider subscription service - so it's not like you're only getting 90% of your Orange Juice, it's like you're only getting 20% of it when you paid for 100%. 

 

Still, if they dealt with the consumers with compassion, it'd be understandable. The callousness I've seen from WotC concerning this is what really pushed me over the edge.

We all knew that the magazines will no longer be available, sometime, at least with the 4e content. What we didn't know was when this was going to happen. 
The question is "why don't they charge me less money, now that they provide less content". Or why don't they give me something extra. For example some months of free subscription or downloadable pdfs of something (like the Encounters) for free. 
I am not really interested in lowering the price, as I have already paid a full year of subsription before the hiatus announcement. I still use the Character Builder ad the Adventure Tools, so I have every reason to continue using their services. But I would like to receive something from them, as a "thank you" for my -almost continuous- loyalty during the last 4 years. A big gift to celebrate what 4e brought to  our tables. It is not a death afterall, it is just a different approach, without additional content from the wotc. The game is still ours. And as we always did, we will design our own house rules, create new monsters and build new adventures or even entire worlds. But, wouldn't it be great, if instead of a cold "hiatus announcement" there was a big "4e day" with something for free?
Because, my dear Wotc, it is true that you are not going to receive any more money from us for the 4th edition products, at least for the printed material, but we are still your customers. Treat us carefully, and we will repay the favour

English is not my native language, so I ask for your patience...

wetsail wrote:

 

Torg_Smith wrote:
The BBB is not going to down rate some company because a kid is crying about it discontinuing some product they want.

 

Wizards is attempting to not deliver on products guaranteed as part of a subscription service without refunding or lessening the fees paid for said service. They're doing this after many people have already paid for a full year of service, in the middle of many people's paid subscriptions. 

 

That's failure to render services or goods, which is indeed a matter for the BBB, especially because Wizards has clearly demonstrated they don't intend to fix the problem on their own.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're aiming to achieve by defending Wizards here. These are some shifty, non-consumer-friendly practices - do you really want to stand by and let your fellow consumers be scammed?

 

Hell, that's not even what you're doing. You're arguing that we should let Wizards scam us, and that it's entirely within their rights as a business to non-deliver without remuneration. Imagine if Amazon had that kind of ethic.

 

For the record, my subscription ran out this month. I'm still pissed off that any company would do this to its consumers with no apparent remorse, especially one that until recently I've enjoyed patronizing. 

 

First, you do not even have a valid claim for the BBB. Your subscription is running out this month. If you subscribe again, you will be doing so knowing that the magazines are terminated.

 

Second, I don’t know what Communist country you are from, but here in America people can charge what they want for a product. The people are free to choose if they want to pay that price for the service or product. Now I think there are some laws about life supporting supplies and National and Natural Emergencies, but they would not apply in this case.

 

Third, they have made a six month advanced notice. This is quite adequate for advanced notice. You knew before your subscription became due.

 

Forth, there will be people who want to continue subscribing. They will. Just because you are unwilling to pay the price they are asking, does not mean others aren’t.

 

Fifth, the number of subscribers will drop as DnD Next comes out. The cost of running the server will remain the same. They are effectively increasing the cost of the subscription to offset the number of people who will be dropping it. My guess is that they would not mind if enough people stopped using it so they could just terminate the service.

 

Now being upset about a service that you enjoyed getting a major cut is understandable. I have been a fan of the Dungeon and Dragon magazines for a couple decades. I was disappointed that they limited them to only subscribers. Throwing a tantrum and tying up BBB resources for this is not good. There is no resolution to this. Your service will be complete shortly and the magazines were produced the entire time.

Torg_Smith wrote:
Now being upset about a service that you enjoyed getting a major cut is understandable. I have been a fan of the Dungeon and Dragon magazines for a couple decades. I was disappointed that they limited them to only subscribers. Throwing a tantrum and tying up BBB resources for this is not good. There is no resolution to this. Your service will be complete shortly and the magazines were produced the entire time.

 

I'm not complaining for my own sake, but because I severely dislike the business practice and the way Wizards has conducted themselves about the matter. 

 

I'm not sure why you're thinking we got a "six-month notice" - the furthest back I can find that "Going Dark" article which announced the discontinuation of the periodicals was Dragon 427, published around September 15, meaning that, at this very point, we've only known for exactly one month and some change. Whcih, surprise surprise, is small comfort to people who have a year's subscription to content they're now not getting. 

 
It's not communism to demand that if you're paying for a product, you'll actually be getting a product. Hell, they were selling year-long subscriptions with no warning of cutting content at the beginning of September - if anything, that's decidedly false advertising, which is yet another thing to contact the BBB about.
 
Again, what if Amazon had these business practices? Do you think people would care to continue doing business with them?

 

To call someone's country "Communist" is just too much, particularly when that person is making a fair point. PR has been poorly handled. Think of MMO suscriptions, what if you played World of Warcraft -I don't but it's an example-, renewed your one-year suscription in May, and Blizzard suddendly announces in September that it will cut content in January but the price will remain the same? What would you expect? From the company, that is.

Oddly enough, I agree with most of the posters above, even those who are disagreeing with each other. As I see it, the issues are these:

 

1) For those who have a 12 month subscription to DDI (not me) that began anywhere after January 2013, they are losing out on something they thought would be available (the magazines) and should be advised what reduced price / refund they will get for this. I have no idea what the BBB is as I am UK-based but my rudimentary understanding of contract law would suggest that there would have been an expectation of the same level of service for the same price (regardless of small print) for the period of the contract (ie. 12 months). The contract was entered into by the customer on that basis and there are therefore legitimate grounds for complaint.

 

2) Everyone posting here is a customer or former customer of WotC and is therefore, in the future, a potential customer. I bought my first issue of Dragon in 1985 and have a well worn copy of Dungeon  #4 from 1987. I grew up with D&D and have enjoyed continuing my hobby into adulthood and looming middle age. The way D&DI has been managed has appalled me and this latest fiasco over the cancellation of the magazines without any announcement about a reduction in price. For an example of how to handle this sort of thing well, see here (and that wasn't even their fault!). I want to continue to be a customer of D&D (and D&DI) but at the moment WotC is doing nothing to persuade me that I should. I work hard for my money and I won't hand it over to a company that clearly thinks it can take it from me and provide very little in return.

 

PS. Calling someone's country communist is not necessarily an insult. A perfectly run communist country should be a utopia as should a perfectly run capitalist country. Anyone know any?

 

 

Torg_Smith wrote:

Second, I don’t know what Communist country you are from, but here in America people can charge what they want for a product. 

 

"America" is not a country and part of it, is actually communist! 

English is not my native language, so I ask for your patience...

fantasmamore wrote:

 

Torg_Smith wrote:

Second, I don’t know what Communist country you are from, but here in America people can charge what they want for a product. 

 

 

"America" is not a country and part of it, is actually communist! 

 

Actually it is a country. The United States of America is a collection of states in America. There is no contenant called America. There is a North America and a South America. Central America does not count as a contenant. The collective is called the Americas.

 

I also agree that there are a lot of Commies in America. XD

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CUBPHILDND wrote:

 

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

 

CUBPHILDND wrote:

I don't see any hostility in WotC's tweet.  Honestly, if you think the subscription without new magazine content is no longer worth its price, then stop subscribing.  If you think it's still worth the price (I'm in this camp), then stop griping.  Of course, for the same price I'd rather have magazine content than not, but that's not the relevant question for the legitimacy of complaints.  The relevant question for legitimacy of complaints is whether they've violated contractual obligations.

 

 

If you're offering a service at X cost and you reduce the value of the service, one of four things is going happen:
You explain why the service is still worth X.

You explain why you can't reduce the cost of the service.

You reduce the cost of the service.

Expect lots of griping from people who realize that they either have to use your product or be a pirate. Especially those who don't ever want to be pirates.

 

 

 

This is ridiculous.  First, option 4 makes no sense.  It's not as if there are extra magazines out there, but now they have to be pirated.  They are ceasing production of the magazines.

 

Second, your list of four options is a false dichotomy anyway: option 5 is that you do nothing (which I admit can be terrible from a PR perspective), and people who no longer find the service worthwhile will stop paying for it, whereas those who do will continue to pay, albeit maybe with some (maybe a lot of) irritation.  (Maybe you meant your options to be about what the company should do, rather than what it will do.)

 

Say what? DDI is a package deal. Character Builder, Adventure Tools, Compendium, Dragon Magazine, and Dungeon Magazine. Let's pretend for a second that that a hypothetical DDI subscriber attaches a value to Dragon/Dungeon magazine above 0. Let's pretend it is a $X/month when DDI costs $Y/month and at the moment, the subscriber thinks that cost is absolutely perfect. In addition, they rely heavily on DDI to run their campaign.They now have the following choices:
Pay $Y for $Y-$X value
Heavily damage their game and not pay anything.
Pay nothing and be a pirate.

At some point, there is a value of $X where N gamers will choose piracy over being legal. And those N gamers mean WotC loses their money unless they can convince them to stay.

 

One of those 4 things I mentioned previously will happen, possibly more than one, but it will certainly be #4 if any of the first 3 don't happen. Option 5 is delusionally bad - if you don't either explain why the cost is the same or reduce the cost, and then don't expect the 4th, your company is beyond inept. Because you in effect raised the price of your service on people who have nowhere else to go. Tropicana is a false analogy for many reasons, the least of which is that no one is forced to go to Tropicana if they want orange juice. If you want electronic 4e tools, you are indeed forced to go to WotC if you want to do it legally. And in January, such people are going to be asked to pay the same amount for a clearly lesser service.

 

I'm not claiming at all that WotC doesn't have the right to do such a thing, but a competent customer service organization explains why they need to have that happen. Even a "While we really would like to lower the cost of DDI, we're concerned that it might make the 4e DDI tools unviable to maintain. For those customers who have DDI throughout the hiatus, we will give a free copy of the original 4e book X pdf  to show our gratitude at your loyalty to our brand. We hope to continue to justify that loyalty going forward."

 

Costs them almost nothing(pick one of the orignial books that's already owned by most DDI subscribers in the physical form and heavily pirated as a pdf, so there shouldn't be a lot of lost future sales there compared to maintaining current subscriptions), tells the truth, and makes those people having DDI throughout the hiatus feel that WotC is trying to make the best of a bad situation.

It's both sad and adorable to see people still refering to WotC as a competent company, at least when it comes to the way they treat their customers.

 

Wake up folks: whether it's Magic or D&D, this company tries to (and does) get away with robbing their customers at every junction. They have all the luck in the world with their high-profile brands and game designers (at least on the MtG side), otherwise this company would've gone down at least five times now due to the way they treat the people who effectively pay their salaries. 

 

This will only end if you stop paying them. WotC has survived more than 20 years of nerdrage on every digital platform imaginable. Don't think that any amount complaining is going to make them change policy (unless your name is Brian Kibler).

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

 

CUBPHILDND wrote:

 

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

 

CUBPHILDND wrote:

I don't see any hostility in WotC's tweet.  Honestly, if you think the subscription without new magazine content is no longer worth its price, then stop subscribing.  If you think it's still worth the price (I'm in this camp), then stop griping.  Of course, for the same price I'd rather have magazine content than not, but that's not the relevant question for the legitimacy of complaints.  The relevant question for legitimacy of complaints is whether they've violated contractual obligations.

 

 

If you're offering a service at X cost and you reduce the value of the service, one of four things is going happen:
You explain why the service is still worth X.

You explain why you can't reduce the cost of the service.

You reduce the cost of the service.

Expect lots of griping from people who realize that they either have to use your product or be a pirate. Especially those who don't ever want to be pirates.

 

 

 

This is ridiculous.  First, option 4 makes no sense.  It's not as if there are extra magazines out there, but now they have to be pirated.  They are ceasing production of the magazines.

 

Second, your list of four options is a false dichotomy anyway: option 5 is that you do nothing (which I admit can be terrible from a PR perspective), and people who no longer find the service worthwhile will stop paying for it, whereas those who do will continue to pay, albeit maybe with some (maybe a lot of) irritation.  (Maybe you meant your options to be about what the company should do, rather than what it will do.)

 

 

Say what? DDI is a package deal. Character Builder, Adventure Tools, Compendium, Dragon Magazine, and Dungeon Magazine. Let's pretend for a second that that a hypothetical DDI subscriber attaches a value to Dragon/Dungeon magazine above 0. Let's pretend it is a $X/month when DDI costs $Y/month and at the moment, the subscriber thinks that cost is absolutely perfect. In addition, they rely heavily on DDI to run their campaign.They now have the following choices:
Pay $Y for $Y-$X value
Heavily damage their game and not pay anything.
Pay nothing and be a pirate.

At some point, there is a value of $X where N gamers will choose piracy over being legal. And those N gamers mean WotC loses their money unless they can convince them to stay.

 

One of those 4 things I mentioned previously will happen, possibly more than one, but it will certainly be #4 if any of the first 3 don't happen. Option 5 is delusionally bad - if you don't either explain why the cost is the same or reduce the cost, and then don't expect the 4th, your company is beyond inept. Because you in effect raised the price of your service on people who have nowhere else to go. Tropicana is a false analogy for many reasons, the least of which is that no one is forced to go to Tropicana if they want orange juice. If you want electronic 4e tools, you are indeed forced to go to WotC if you want to do it legally. And in January, such people are going to be asked to pay the same amount for a clearly lesser service.

 

I'm not claiming at all that WotC doesn't have the right to do such a thing, but a competent customer service organization explains why they need to have that happen. Even a "While we really would like to lower the cost of DDI, we're concerned that it might make the 4e DDI tools unviable to maintain. For those customers who have DDI throughout the hiatus, we will give a free copy of the original 4e book X pdf  to show our gratitude at your loyalty to our brand. We hope to continue to justify that loyalty going forward."

 

Costs them almost nothing(pick one of the orignial books that's already owned by most DDI subscribers in the physical form and heavily pirated as a pdf, so there shouldn't be a lot of lost future sales there compared to maintaining current subscriptions), tells the truth, and makes those people having DDI throughout the hiatus feel that WotC is trying to make the best of a bad situation.

 

Again, I think you're not distinguishing between what will happen from what should happen.  My option 5 can happen (proof: it did), though it shouldn't.  To say that the option is delusionally bad isn't to show that it didn't happen (proof: it is delusional, and it happened).  In the end, the debate is silly, so I won't belabor it.  We agree on the basics: WotC has handled this transition very badly, and their public relations has been terrible.

 

The issue I see in this thread, and elsewhere, is that people are overstating the case against WotC, invoking lots of unreasonable hyperbole ("that twitter message was hostile" or "the BBB should do something about this") and bad arguments ("exactly one of four options will happen, for any service X whose price is raised").  Maybe we shouldn't expect any better on the wild, wild interwebs, and I'll be first in line to throw (metaphorical) stones at WotC on its forums, but let's at least throw the right number of stones, for the right reasons.

svendj wrote:

It's both sad and adorable to see people still refering to WotC as a competent company, at least when it comes to the way they treat their customers.

 

Wake up folks: whether it's Magic or D&D, this company tries to (and does) get away with robbing their customers at every junction. They have all the luck in the world with their high-profile brands and game designers (at least on the MtG side), otherwise this company would've gone down at least five times now due to the way they treat the people who effectively pay their salaries. 

 

This will only end if you stop paying them. WotC has survived more than 20 years of nerdrage on every digital platform imaginable. Don't think that any amount complaining is going to make them change policy (unless your name is Brian Kibler).

 

Says the guys with a D&D Insider icon on the lower left corner of his post.  :)

Call me a hypocrite if you will. I know what I can expect from WotC, nothing more, nothing less, and I'm still fine paying what they ask for it. I'm just saying that, if people feel like complaining on the forums, that they shouldn't expect it will make any difference whatsoever.

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