Appalled

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Honestly I am, shocked, disappointed and appalled at what has been happening to Wizards for the past two years.

Unfulfilled promises, false advertising, little to no customer support or contact.

I paid for DDI since I got my 4e books hoping for the dungeon builder and VTT with the hope that it would be coming soon. I didn't mind the limited character builder and the poor quality of Dungeron and Dragon mags, I didn't really care too much that they canceled the pdf plans for book releases, I would have a VTT with that in them I though. But boy was I wrong.

First the content was delayed, then it was removed from the site, then announced as on hold and to me it seems like the next logical steps are canceled and "lol we never said anything about any virtual tables, your monster manual speaks lies."

Furthermore with the extended delay of the VTT Wizards has still refused to release at least some right to table tops that DO work like Fantasy Grounds, so my group of players and I are forced to spend hours if not days going through and parcing our own books one by one since we can't share them online with each other even though we all have the books.

I have been a long follower of Wizards, my collections of MTG and pokemon cards would most likely increase global temperatures by 3-5C if my house ever caught fire and I bought almost every published 3e and 3.5 book, but there's only so much one can take.

I know people say that DDI is priced for the current content and I should be happy for what I'm getting, but I'm not exactly getting much. (Of course I canceled my subscription a long time ago so I'm not getting anything at all.) But I come back about once a month to see if anything is improving. From what I can see, it isn't. A price increase and a drop in new content and slacking in updates of existing content. I don't count the previews of PHB3 as new content because it is probably something you will purchase anyway so in reality you are paying more just to look at it earlier. (I realize that it's been said that the price increase has nothing to do with PHB3 and that's fine with me, but what exactly warrants the price increase then other than Wizards wants some money?)

I know I'm venting quite a bit and I'm sure there's reasons for what Wizards is doing, but I'm also positive that not all those reasons are fully justifiable and know that they could have handled this much, much better.
I paid for DDI since I got my 4e books hoping for the dungeon builder and VTT with the hope that it would be coming soon.

Well, there's your problem.

Don't pay for things that might happen. That's called gambling.

Either the D&Di is worth the price you pay now for the services you receive now or its not.

If it is worth it (I think it is), then enjoy it. If not, then don't pay for it. Simple.

Fairbanks
Fairbanks, level 5 Human, Slayer (Multiclass: Cavalier) Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort Background: Blademaster (Acrobatics class skill) Theme: Neverwinter Noble FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 18, CON 10, DEX 17, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 13 STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 16, CON 10, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 12 AC: 20 Fort: 19 Ref: 16 Will: 14 HP: 49/49 Surges: 6/9 Surge Value: 10 [X] Action Point [] Second Wind TRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +10, Athletics +11, Diplomacy +8, Endurance +7, Intimidate +8 UNTRAINED SKILLS Arcana +2, Bluff +3, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, History +2, Insight +2, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +2, Stealth +5, Streetwise +3, Thievery +5 POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Card Link Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Card Link [] Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort Card Link [X] [X] Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike Card Link [X] Fighter Utility: Duelist's Assault Card Link [] Fighter Utility: Mobile Blade Card Link [] Level 2 Utility: Honorable Challenge Card Link [] Neverwinter Noble Utility: Take Heart, Friend! Card Link Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura Card Link [] Paladin Attack: Righteous Radiance Card Link FEATS Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise Level 1: Armor Finesse Level 2:Heavy Armor Agility Level 4: Squire of Righteousness ITEMS Dagger x3 Adventurer's Kit Aecris Black Iron Scale Mail +1 Horned Helm (Heroic Tier) Holy Symbol of Bahamut 1 Opal 73g 145s 50c
Well, there's your problem.

Don't pay for things that might happen. That's called gambling.

Either the D&Di is worth the price you pay now for the services you receive now or its not.

If it is worth it (I think it is), then enjoy it. If not, then don't pay for it. Simple.

This I completely agree with.
WOTC Podcast: "The web is a shortcut" "Piracy was a big thing"
Well, there's your problem.

Don't pay for things that might happen. That's called gambling.

Either the D&Di is worth the price you pay now for the services you receive now or its not.

If it is worth it (I think it is), then enjoy it. If not, then don't pay for it. Simple.

Gambling? Purchasing a product for advertised goods and services is gambling? I guess I was the only one who watched the "unveiling" of 4th edition with the preview of the VTT and all that other jazz.... Or perhaps I am hallucinating everytime I flip through my books and see advertisements for the VTT.

You guys kill me.
Actually, DDI was free for months & months after the release of 4E, which also happened to be months and months after the advertised release date for the VTT et al. At the time that the OP would have to have started paying for DDI, he would also have known that the VTT wasn't available and might not ever be. So, yes, gambling. Anybody who is paying for DDI is getting what they're paying for, not what has been advertised (psst... Red Bull doesn't actually give you wings...).
Actually, DDI was free for months & months after the release of 4E, which also happened to be months and months after the advertised release date for the VTT et al. At the time that the OP would have to have started paying for DDI, he would also have known that the VTT wasn't available and might not ever be. So, yes, gambling. Anybody who is paying for DDI is getting what they're paying for, not what has been advertised (psst... Red Bull doesn't actually give you wings...).

Oh what a short memory you have.... When DDI went from free to subscription, the words "COMING SOON" were written above the VTT, the visualizer, and the dungeon builder. It didn't say "maybe coming soon." In fact, the selling point for DDI for those not intersted in Dungeon or Dragon magazines was that you would be able to lock in your subscription price for however long you subscribed even when the VTT, CB, Visualizer, and dungone builder were released. Please get your facts straight before you start spouting off.

I am over the fact that the VTT and all the other products have been canned, but obviously the OP is not. I believe he has a right to express his displeasure without people making things up to defend WotC.
I don't know about the rest of you, but when I signed up for D&Di it very clearly spelled out what exactly I was paying for with my subscription.

The VTT and other tools were not listed, but on the up-side I wasn't being charged for them!

Paying for D&Di and getting angry when you don't get the VTT is like buying a Big Mac and getting angry when you don't get the winning Monopoly piece. You paid for a Big Mac, you got a Big Mac, why are you angry?

OK, not the best analogy. Maybe I shouldn't write responses on an empty stomach.

Fairbanks
Fairbanks, level 5 Human, Slayer (Multiclass: Cavalier) Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort Background: Blademaster (Acrobatics class skill) Theme: Neverwinter Noble FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 18, CON 10, DEX 17, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 13 STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 16, CON 10, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 12 AC: 20 Fort: 19 Ref: 16 Will: 14 HP: 49/49 Surges: 6/9 Surge Value: 10 [X] Action Point [] Second Wind TRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +10, Athletics +11, Diplomacy +8, Endurance +7, Intimidate +8 UNTRAINED SKILLS Arcana +2, Bluff +3, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, History +2, Insight +2, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +2, Stealth +5, Streetwise +3, Thievery +5 POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Card Link Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Card Link [] Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort Card Link [X] [X] Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike Card Link [X] Fighter Utility: Duelist's Assault Card Link [] Fighter Utility: Mobile Blade Card Link [] Level 2 Utility: Honorable Challenge Card Link [] Neverwinter Noble Utility: Take Heart, Friend! Card Link Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura Card Link [] Paladin Attack: Righteous Radiance Card Link FEATS Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise Level 1: Armor Finesse Level 2:Heavy Armor Agility Level 4: Squire of Righteousness ITEMS Dagger x3 Adventurer's Kit Aecris Black Iron Scale Mail +1 Horned Helm (Heroic Tier) Holy Symbol of Bahamut 1 Opal 73g 145s 50c
Honestly I am, shocked, disappointed and appalled at what has been happening to Wizards for the past two years.

Unfulfilled promises, false advertising, little to no customer support or contact.

I paid for DDI since I got my 4e books hoping for the dungeon builder and VTT with the hope that it would be coming soon. I didn't mind the limited character builder and the poor quality of Dungeron and Dragon mags, I didn't really care too much that they canceled the pdf plans for book releases, I would have a VTT with that in them I though. But boy was I wrong.

First the content was delayed, then it was removed from the site, then announced as on hold and to me it seems like the next logical steps are canceled and "lol we never said anything about any virtual tables, your monster manual speaks lies."

Furthermore with the extended delay of the VTT Wizards has still refused to release at least some right to table tops that DO work like Fantasy Grounds, so my group of players and I are forced to spend hours if not days going through and parcing our own books one by one since we can't share them online with each other even though we all have the books.

I have been a long follower of Wizards, my collections of MTG and pokemon cards would most likely increase global temperatures by 3-5C if my house ever caught fire and I bought almost every published 3e and 3.5 book, but there's only so much one can take.

I know people say that DDI is priced for the current content and I should be happy for what I'm getting, but I'm not exactly getting much. (Of course I canceled my subscription a long time ago so I'm not getting anything at all.) But I come back about once a month to see if anything is improving. From what I can see, it isn't. A price increase and a drop in new content and slacking in updates of existing content. I don't count the previews of PHB3 as new content because it is probably something you will purchase anyway so in reality you are paying more just to look at it earlier. (I realize that it's been said that the price increase has nothing to do with PHB3 and that's fine with me, but what exactly warrants the price increase then other than Wizards wants some money?)

I know I'm venting quite a bit and I'm sure there's reasons for what Wizards is doing, but I'm also positive that not all those reasons are fully justifiable and know that they could have handled this much, much better.

I hear you OP. You're not alone. I was pretty upset with the "back burner" for VTT, because I (like you) see the writing on the wall, and I'm pretty sure back burner will lead to cancellation. I posted my displeasure on these forums and I even emailed WotC about it. They never bothered replying. I tried emailing them a few times, because I wanted some response. I guess my emails go in the shredder when they don't like them.

I'll still play 4e, but I've been considering canceling my DDI subscription. I don't think I get all that much out of it. I like the CB, but I dunno if its worth what they want for it. I also believe in "putting my money where my mouth is". I'll keep paying for it as long as I feel like I'm getting my value, but that barrier is rapidly approaching, especially considering the price increase.

I was really optimistic about DDI before the launch of 4e, I was hoping that it would provide the business model they needed to keep the Hasbro corporate big-wigs happy. I'm afraid that isn't happening, and that is the reason for the price increase, since they don't have the volume of subscribers they want, they'll see if the subscribers they do have will stay around with a price hike. They are using the "PHB3 Previews" as incentive for those who are on the fence about the price hike. I suspect that the PHB3 preview novelty will wear off, and if they don't have their Campaign Tools ready by then people will probably start getting dissatisfied with DDI. I hope it can be successful for them, I want D&D to be successful, but I'm really unhappy with how things have progressed thus far.
Oh what a short memory you have.... When DDI went from free to subscription, the words "COMING SOON" were written above the VTT, the visualizer, and the dungeon builder. It didn't say "maybe coming soon." In fact, the selling point for DDI for those not intersted in Dungeon or Dragon magazines was that you would be able to lock in your subscription price for however long you subscribed even when the VTT, CB, Visualizer, and dungone builder were released. Please get your facts straight before you start spouting off.

I am over the fact that the VTT and all the other products have been canned, but obviously the OP is not. I believe he has a right to express his displeasure without people making things up to defend WotC.

So you saw the words "Coming Soon" and believed them?

That's kinda sad.
So you saw the words "Coming Soon" and believed them?

That's kinda sad.

Yeah I know, I had faith in WotC.
So you saw the words "Coming Soon" and believed them?

That's kinda sad.

I think its sad that you are so jaded that when someone tells you they'll have something done soon, you don't believe them.
Gambling? Purchasing a product for advertised goods and services is gambling? I guess I was the only one who watched the "unveiling" of 4th edition with the preview of the VTT and all that other jazz.... Or perhaps I am hallucinating everytime I flip through my books and see advertisements for the VTT.

You guys kill me.

When the OP purchased DDI well aware that the VTT and DB were not currently available, then yes it was essentially gambling - although some might consider it investing.

Lets be clear here, there is a subset of fans who purchased their books because advertising in the book stated (or gave the perception) the VTT would be available. Within that subset, there is a subset who subsequently purchased DDI with the assumption that the VTT was already available. The OP is not within that subset.

There is a subset of fans who purchased DDI aware that not all tools have been completely developed, with the hope that the remaining tools would be completed soon. This is the subset that the OP appears to belong to. Personally I find that view somewhat deluded, but I chock most of it up to those people being unfamiliar with software development and/or out of the loop on Wotc news.

I can sympathize that people are upset some of the tools aren't being worked on. I'm not maintaining a subscription right now because I don't feel that DDI provides enough incentive for me to agree to an extended purchase. I do think that Wotc would like to complete the VTT at some point, but my guess is that without a change in DDI management it won't be feasible. I'm not certain they have the resources to complete it with the way things are right now.
"Man is made God's plaything, and that is the best part of him. Therefore every man and woman should live life accordingly, and play the noblest games... Life must be lived as play, playing certain games, making sacrifices, singing and dancing..." Plato, The Laws.
There is a subset of fans who purchased DDI aware that not all tools have been completely developed, with the hope that the remaining tools would be completed soon. This is the subset that the OP appears to belong to. Personally I find that view somewhat deluded, but I chock most of it up to those people being unfamiliar with software development and/or out of the loop on Wotc news.
QUOTE]

I don't know how you can justify that statement when all the information provided by WotC at that time indicated that the software was COMING SOON and being actively developed. At no point at the beginning of pay-for-DDI was it mentioned that the VTT might not appear. That's a fact.
Honestly I am, amazed, dismayed and appalled at what has been happening to me for the past two years.

Unfulfilled expectations, false conclusions, little to no motivation to be informed.

I paid, willingly, for DDI since I got my 4e books paying for tools that with limited reading I would have know weren't available at the moment and had no release date at all. I paid for a character builder I didn't like (though I could play around with a free demo), magazines I thought were crappy (despite the four free issues I could peruse before deciding to pay for them), I didn't really care too much that they canceled the pdf version of books that are not part of the DnDi service I decided to pay for; because I thought that I would get a VTT with DnDi, even though there was ample news by the time all of the afore mentioned thing were released that the VTT wasn't on the release schedule. But boy, I refused to be an informed buyer.

First the content was delayed, then removed from the site, then announced as on hold and— since I fell the need to jump before looking and ignore the facts around me— I think they will be cancelled, despite news that they are simply on hold until there is enough demand for them. And they dare expect me to realize that by the time the MM was being printed is was too late to delete the announcement and that by simply taking a look at the DnD website I could see that the VTT wasn't available and under development still, shame on them for expecting us to be rational participants of our economy!

Furthermore with the announced pause in development of the VTT and Visualizer, Wizards has refused to take care of it's IP by not giving away all of it's content to third parties. Now my player's and I are forced to respect copyright law instead of being able to post complete segments of book all over the internet. Again, how dare they protect their IP! It's like they are prohibiting us from talking through the phone or Skype by sending ninjas to our rooms to kill us if we even dare to talk about the PHB in a IM, without actually prohibiting us from doing so.

I have been a compulsive buyer of Wizards, my collections of MTG and Pokemon cards would likely make economically sensible people's heads blow up due to the immense monument they are to instinctual consumption. Not only that, I bought almost every published 3e and 3.5 book, but I seem to finally have come to my senses and realize that I, like many gamers, am a consumerist.

I know that common sense dictates that DnDi is priced for the current content and if I pay for it it is because I agree that the pricing is fair for the product given. (Of course I canceled my subscription a long time ago so I'm not getting anything as all, as is to be expected.) But I, now an informed participant of this market, come back about once a month to see if what I think DnDi should be priced and what they think DnDi should be priced match and is within my means. From my economic standpoint, it is not. An announced price increase with the chance to avoid it for a whole year and a non-existent mythical drop in content that has actually been increasing—with every book released and added to DnDi, with every new feature, with all the new playtests and all the previews— leading to the change in the date the Compendium and Character builder are updated, causing a delay so that mags are still added a month after their release and books six weeks after theirs. Not only is the schedule virtually the same but they dared to incorporate hybrid classes and the monk to the Character Builder ahead of time, shame on you WotC.

I refuse to consider the previews of PHB3 as the new content that they are because they are just like the preview of new comics they give at the end of some comic books that are meant to be read to see if you would enjoy buying that comic before actually paying for it; or like private showings of the next big geek film at Comic-con that you can see before seeing it in theaters; or like videogame trailers or tv-show commercials. So in reality you are just paying money to see something before it is released so you can pay for it again— it's like going to the cinema watching The Dark Knight and then buying the DVD, who does that?!. And I know that it has been said that the price increase has nothing to do with the PHB3 previews and that's fine, I can ignore the fact that a price increase would come after the release of the CB, and that WoTC didn't immediately raise the price though they had every right to do so; because by ignoring those facts i can complain about WotC wanting to make more money, something that is completely contrary to business sense)

I know that I'm ranting over here, that's the purpose of this post. And I'm sure I've ignored the reasons and substituted my own for what Wizards is doing, but I have convinced myself that the reasons I've made up are unjustifiable, and we all know that it is my fault that I didn't inform myself and that Wizards should run business as I say.
Honestly I am, amazed, dismayed and appalled at what has been happening to me for the past two years.

Unfulfilled expectations, false conclusions, little to no motivation to be informed.

...WHOLE BUNCH OF FUNNY STUFF...

I know that I'm ranting over here, that's the purpose of this post. And I'm sure I've ignored the reasons and substituted my own for what Wizards is doing, but I have convinced myself that the reasons I've made up are unjustifiable, and we all know that it is my fault that I didn't inform myself and that Wizards should run business as I say.

Thanks for a good laugh.

In the end, people either keep themselves informed or don't. Regardless, it will always be someone elses fault when they are unhappy.

And thankfully for them, companies can't say anything back, so they can vent. Hopefully it's to the point where they finally step back and look back at what they have said.
In fact, the selling point for DDI for those not intersted in Dungeon or Dragon magazines was that you would be able to lock in your subscription price for however long you subscribed even when the VTT, CB, Visualizer, and dungone builder were released. Please get your facts straight before you start spouting off.

As also one of the people who saw the ads and made some choices, I can agree and disagree on a lot of this. On the flip side, I was aware (by the track record of years past) when the paid version came out, what was likely not going to happen and as such I made a choice for a shorter subscription.

As indicated by someone above, not until the recent price change did I opt to re-evaluate if the cost for now, was worth the price for now. For me, it's not, so I canceled. No big fan fare, no flaming message. I will ride out my subscription for the Eberron release and then walk away.

However, the issue I have with the OP is really just what I quoted.

The point of the lock in price, was for what was available *then* and anything that *might* be released during that time. They were very clear that the price would likely go up when the VTT, DB and other items came out. I admit, I think we still believed they *might* come out period, but I don't think many of us felt they would come out in that years time...sadly.

It was not to lock in the price forever, and it was only as a *potential* bonus just in case the items came out and you were still under a lock down price. Wizards offer to let you lock it in again for another year at that same price is actually a bonus, and not one I'd expect them to offer again.

It was a gamble, maybe just maybe you'd pay for a low year cost, the VTT and DB might come out, the price would rise and you'd get to use it for a few cool months at your lower cost, but...it was not only a risk, but it was discussed, analyzed, re-analyzed and confirmed in forum and Bill's articles, numerous times.

∴ "Virtus junxit, mors non separabit." 

As also one of the people who saw the ads and made some choices, I can agree and disagree on a lot of this. On the flip side, I was aware (by the track record of years past) when the paid version came out, what was likely not going to happen and as such I made a choice for a shorter subscription.

As indicated by someone above, not until the recent price change did I opt to re-evaluate if the cost for now, was worth the price for now. For me, it's not, so I canceled. No big fan fare, no flaming message. I will ride out my subscription for the Eberron release and then walk away.

However, the issue I have with the OP is really just what I quoted.

The point of the lock in price, was for what was available *then* and anything that *might* be released during that time. They were very clear that the price would likely go up when the VTT, DB and other items came out. I admit, I think we still believed they *might* come out period, but I don't think many of us felt they would come out in that years time...sadly.

It was not to lock in the price forever, and it was only as a *potential* bonus just in case the items came out and you were still under a lock down price. Wizards offer to let you lock it in again for another year at that same price is actually a bonus, and not one I'd expect them to offer again.

It was a gamble, maybe just maybe you'd pay for a low year cost, the VTT and DB might come out, the price would rise and you'd get to use it for a few cool months at your lower cost, but...it was not only a risk, but it was discussed, analyzed, re-analyzed and confirmed in forum and Bill's articles, numerous times.

I'm not the OP, was just trying to offer some support.
I was also appalled. I'm starting a petition to get wizards to reconsider laying off the VTT or Game Table. It is located here:

Petition to get the VTT back in development
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I was also appalled. I'm starting a petition to get wizards to reconsider laying off the VTT or Game Table. It is located here:

Petition to get the VTT back in development

Alas, petitions are against the CoC - so your petition thread is almost certain to be short lived.

Just so you know.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

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I wholeheartedly support the message of the OP.


Good on ya!
You're totally right, and I'm also disappointed.

At the same time, what really sucks is we can't do anything about the pace and timing of DDI's features.

The only real choice is not to give them your money... which also sucks because some of it's great. It's just nowhere near what we thought we'd have by now.

But again, you or I can't control that - we can voice our displeasure, which we should, but then have to move on and make some choices.
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Totally agree with original poster. I've been playing since 1980 and in the last year wizards has damaged my feelings towards their products so badly due to DDI, that I care not to support them any more. I've recently ended my DDI subscription. I also have no plans to purchase future D&D products in general. I hope that some day they can repair the damage they've done, but right now it appears they aren't going to try since the VTT and Dungeon Builder have been indefinately postponed.

I also dont care if others want to bash me for my opinion, its how I feel. Wizards created the problem not I and they continue to make it worse.
There is a subset of fans who purchased DDI aware that not all tools have been completely developed, with the hope that the remaining tools would be completed soon. This is the subset that the OP appears to belong to. Personally I find that view somewhat deluded, but I chock most of it up to those people being unfamiliar with software development and/or out of the loop on Wotc news.

I don't know how you can justify that statement when all the information provided by WotC at that time indicated that the software was COMING SOON and being actively developed. At no point at the beginning of pay-for-DDI was it mentioned that the VTT might not appear. That's a fact.

Well, if you're suggesting that some customers came to the website and saw COMING SOON and purchased a DDI subscription based on the assumption that "SOON" was a range of months (I'd guess that most people would think Soon was 3-6 months for a product like this) now feel mislead, I'd say you've got a point to an extent. I think it was wrong of Wotc to have COMING SOON up there in the first place, at least without clearly explaining what was going on. I also think that anyone who signed up without bothering to do any research on how long SOON was made an incredible leap of logic; it wasn't very hard to find out the info by the time COMING SOON was posted. There was a lot of confusion at that time, but if you parsed the fact from the opinion it was fairly obvious what was going on; Wotc had a lot of trouble communicating with the fans, but there were statements about what was being done. So one hand you've got a company that posted misleading info in their ads and didn't come clean with the fans because management couldn't decide how to proceed with the project (clarification: this is a summary based on my PoV), and on the other hand you've got a customer who made a baseless assumption about an impulse purchase. If you ask me who's wrong in that scenario I'd say it's 50/50 with a lot of grey.
Now, I still think that there should be a statement on the DDI webpage or in the DDI FAQ about the current status of the VTT and other tabled tools; to me that's the ethical choice considering someone was incompetent enough to put an ad in the PHB that implied all tools would be ready use at 4e's rollout.
"Man is made God's plaything, and that is the best part of him. Therefore every man and woman should live life accordingly, and play the noblest games... Life must be lived as play, playing certain games, making sacrifices, singing and dancing..." Plato, The Laws.
Again it is the duty of a consumer to be informed, if they are not an because of that buy into something they don't like it is their fault an nobody else's.
Again it is the duty of a consumer to be informed, if they are not an because of that buy into something they don't like it is their fault an nobody else's.

Even if the company whose product they are buying makes very little effort to get the word out ot the public that parts of the product would not be ready when the product would be out?

I understand WOTC put it up in the news and in these fourms that DDi would not be ready at launch. But they should have made sure that info would be on the main DnD page for at least 2 weeks before and a month after launch. They did'nt. WOTC should have put out press relases and told there main disributiors about the delay in DDi. They let the info stay buried in the fourms. How many people do you know goes digging through a message board to find every bit of info on a product before buying?
WOTC did tell the public about the delay. But they should have done a much better job at it. They wanted to sell books so they let it get buried.
Even if the company whose product they are buying makes very little effort to get the word out ot the public that parts of the product would not be ready when the product would be out?

I understand WOTC put it up in the news and in these fourms that DDi would not be ready at launch. But they should have made sure that info would be on the main DnD page for at least 2 weeks before and a month after launch. They did'nt. WOTC should have put out press relases and told there main disributiors about the delay in DDi. They let the info stay buried in the fourms. How many people do you know goes digging through a message board to find every bit of info on a product before buying?
WOTC did tell the public about the delay. But they should have done a much better job at it. They wanted to sell books so they let it get buried.

I did? I informed myself, as a consumer one should inform themselves. And it wasn't exactly difficult to find, it only took a mild interest in the product, it only takes google. Honestly to blame a company because they didn't breast-fed you information about a product you claim to be oh so interested about is to renounce all responsibility for unhealthy buying habits.
They wanted to sell books so they let it get buried.

I'm trying really hard not to say "Prove it."

A less pessimistic view would be to say that a book publishing company overreached when it came to web development and did a less than adequate public relations job.

Mistakes were made, sure. But the subscription page very clearly spelled out exactly what you were paying for. If you paid hoping for something more than that, you really can't (rationally) blame WotC.

Dress it up with all the "Evil corporate manipulation...ooo spooky spooky" you want, we're getting what we pay for and that's that.

Fairbanks
Fairbanks, level 5 Human, Slayer (Multiclass: Cavalier) Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort Background: Blademaster (Acrobatics class skill) Theme: Neverwinter Noble FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 18, CON 10, DEX 17, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 13 STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 16, CON 10, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 12 AC: 20 Fort: 19 Ref: 16 Will: 14 HP: 49/49 Surges: 6/9 Surge Value: 10 [X] Action Point [] Second Wind TRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +10, Athletics +11, Diplomacy +8, Endurance +7, Intimidate +8 UNTRAINED SKILLS Arcana +2, Bluff +3, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, History +2, Insight +2, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +2, Stealth +5, Streetwise +3, Thievery +5 POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Card Link Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Card Link [] Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort Card Link [X] [X] Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike Card Link [X] Fighter Utility: Duelist's Assault Card Link [] Fighter Utility: Mobile Blade Card Link [] Level 2 Utility: Honorable Challenge Card Link [] Neverwinter Noble Utility: Take Heart, Friend! Card Link Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura Card Link [] Paladin Attack: Righteous Radiance Card Link FEATS Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise Level 1: Armor Finesse Level 2:Heavy Armor Agility Level 4: Squire of Righteousness ITEMS Dagger x3 Adventurer's Kit Aecris Black Iron Scale Mail +1 Horned Helm (Heroic Tier) Holy Symbol of Bahamut 1 Opal 73g 145s 50c
Maybe I have just been spoiled by companies like VALVe and Paradox Productions where if I send an email I can expect a reply to be waiting for me in my inbox within a week.

I understand product releases and the troubles with software development, but I've never seen such advertising for a non-existent product. For anyone who follows VALVe at all they have their own release announcements which are held in their own time system known as VALVe time, where soon means a week or so and a week or so means a month, but they never fail to deliver on the scale that Wizards has. They also do a great job at pr and customer relations which is, as I see it, not something that interests Wizards in the least bit.

I liked the first Dungeon and Dragon magazines, but the amount and quality of content has been steadily slipping while the price is increasing. I also did not really find many situations in which I could use it.

To whoever mentioned the OH NO CAN'T DISTRIBUTE THINGS ILLEGALLY, if I really had the mind to I could download all the 4e books, like I'm sure many others could. I'm disappointed because if I do wan't to get a copy of a pdf of a book I already purchased I have to get it in illegitimate ways instead of from Wizards. But I restrain myself because I still have hope in the company and don't want one of my favorite hobbies to die out. What I am complaining about is them not allowing the release of simple base information like they did with all previous versions so games could be run quickly but still impossible to run without the proper books. It's inconvenient to have to shuffle through books while hosting an online game because it creates very awkward periods of silence while you look up the weight of a greataxe or some other nearly insignificant piece of information.

I think a more accurate food analogy would be ordering a cheeseburger, but being told that there's no cheese right now but they sent an employee to go get it for you while they make you a hamburger. Then telling you the employee got fired while on his way to the freezer and you can't have the cheeseburger you wanted but get the hamburger instead.

Yes I could have said no I will wait until he gets back to order and pay, and I could have asked the other employees what their thoughts were on the absent employee to find out that he was a slacker, but I was trusting enough to believe a company who I was a faithful customer of for almost 20 years that my cheese would be delivered.
I'm trying really hard not to say "Prove it."

Well I rememeber coming to the DnD site and the fourms on a pretty regular basis, almost daily, leading up to the relase of 4th ed and I don't remember seeing anything about the delay. But I have been sent links proving that the info was there, just hard to find. My point is WOTC could have done a much better job letting the public know about it.
I agree completely with the OP

I saw coming soon and figured they would be out with-in the year... I mean who advertises that way???

Now i do agree that not everyone is willing to dig through forums to find information... and then when you do... its been moved or removed completely

The VTT was the only reason i even came back to DnD!!! I left when 2.5 came out... remember that players option crap...

I went to Palladium and WW... now because i have been with WoTC playing Magic forever... i thought I would give it another try... I do like the CB, and I will never have to buy a player side book again because of it... thats worth the price, especially at the rate they are putting books out now... whats next martial power 2?? PHB 4?? how many more books am I gonna save money on by having my DDI Subscription...

HELL YES I AM DISSAPOINTED AT THE PITIFUL WAY WOTC DID THINGS!!!

but at the same time I feel that 4e should have come after 2e... 3e and 3.5 never happened in my opinion

I bought the mini's and the tiles and the first round of books... even teh supplements like the Adventures vault, martial power, and both Forgotten realms books...

Now I am not going to buy anymore books with this Subscription increase... and not getting the stuff that I really want... I mean you can only eat chicken for so long before you start to crave that medium rare steak!!!

to me the VTT is the steak...

What happened to KM's poll post... i tried to quote it and i couldn't...

I know... its like a petition... its against the CoC... but what WoTC did is against the Hasbro CoC... I did look that up...

now I guess parts of this post will be sensored because someone might not like what I said...
Well I rememeber coming to the DnD site and the fourms on a pretty regular basis, almost daily, leading up to the relase of 4th ed and I don't remember seeing anything about the delay. But I have been sent links proving that the info was there, just hard to find. My point is WOTC could have done a much better job letting the public know about it.

I agree that they didn't do as good a job as they should have, but how does that imply sinister intent?

Fairbanks
Fairbanks, level 5 Human, Slayer (Multiclass: Cavalier) Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort Background: Blademaster (Acrobatics class skill) Theme: Neverwinter Noble FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 18, CON 10, DEX 17, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 13 STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 16, CON 10, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 12 AC: 20 Fort: 19 Ref: 16 Will: 14 HP: 49/49 Surges: 6/9 Surge Value: 10 [X] Action Point [] Second Wind TRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +10, Athletics +11, Diplomacy +8, Endurance +7, Intimidate +8 UNTRAINED SKILLS Arcana +2, Bluff +3, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, History +2, Insight +2, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +2, Stealth +5, Streetwise +3, Thievery +5 POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Card Link Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Card Link [] Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort Card Link [X] [X] Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike Card Link [X] Fighter Utility: Duelist's Assault Card Link [] Fighter Utility: Mobile Blade Card Link [] Level 2 Utility: Honorable Challenge Card Link [] Neverwinter Noble Utility: Take Heart, Friend! Card Link Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura Card Link [] Paladin Attack: Righteous Radiance Card Link FEATS Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise Level 1: Armor Finesse Level 2:Heavy Armor Agility Level 4: Squire of Righteousness ITEMS Dagger x3 Adventurer's Kit Aecris Black Iron Scale Mail +1 Horned Helm (Heroic Tier) Holy Symbol of Bahamut 1 Opal 73g 145s 50c
What happened to KM's poll post... i tried to quote it and i couldn't...

I know... its like a petition... its against the CoC... but what WoTC did is against the Hasbro CoC... I did look that up...

now I guess parts of this post will be sensored because someone might not like what I said...

I just got a message that my post was removed because it goes against the CoC, they said it was a poll. But I said it was a survey. Last time I checked surveys are not against the CoC. But they must be now.

I do think WOTC will remove or sensor what they don't like. Sorry, not gonna drink the DDi kool aid anymore.
I can't believe how naive people still are when it comes to software releases. Software releases always take longer then projected, what is listed as Coming Soon is really means it is not cancelled. Perhaps alot of these complainers are new to computer software and are only used to book release dates which are rather reliable. Software release dates are not reliable at all and they never have been.
I am Black/Green
I am Black/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both selfish and instinctive. I value growth and community, as long as they favour my own objectives; I enjoy nature, and I particularly enjoy watching parts of nature die. At best, I am resilient and tenacious; at worst, I'm uncontrollable and destructive.
I just got a message that my post was removed because it goes against the CoC, they said it was a poll. But I said it was a survey. Last time I checked surveys are not against the CoC. But they must be now.

I do think WOTC will remove or sensor what they don't like. Sorry, not gonna drink the DDi kool aid anymore.

I would think that if polls are against the CoC that surveys would be as well.
I am Black/Green
I am Black/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both selfish and instinctive. I value growth and community, as long as they favour my own objectives; I enjoy nature, and I particularly enjoy watching parts of nature die. At best, I am resilient and tenacious; at worst, I'm uncontrollable and destructive.
I agree that they didn't do as good a job as they should have, but how does that imply sinister intent?

WOTC knew if the public found out DDi would not be ready at launch lie WOTC promised it would, that would lead to people not buying the books. So WOTC let that little info out then let it get burried.

Please no one say "well you can play without DDi". Yes you can. But I have seen alot of posts here from people saying the only reason they bought the books was because they thought they could play online with old gaming buddies that are now all over the country.
I can't believe how naive people still are when it comes to software releases. Software releases always take longer then projected

I'm not upset that the computer stuff got delayed. I know stuff like that does. I'm upset at how WOTC went about telling the public about it. Then after all that died down, they said they would come out with one tool at a time. The put out one tool, leave the other three, so they can work on yet another tool. They totally changed direction. They are not following through.

How do we know WOTC won't drop these campign tools and change direction without completing them? They have done this too many times with computer stuff.
How do we know WOTC won't drop these campign tools and change direction without completing them? They have done this too many times with computer stuff.

Ohh... sounds like the new Magic Online... which we should have known!!! WoTC is gonna take its sweet *** time putting that stuff out... maybe they could put out discs of the whole suite so that we may buy them...

or my theory now is... they are tired of people stating the truth!! and are going to take their time and put them out with out any bugs

now that doesn't take into account the fact that there are how many new books coming out and magazines... they could never be finished with their tools Uh Oh I just got my hopes up and then dashed them again
Of course I canceled my subscription a long time ago so I'm not getting anything at all.

I was going to post a whole bunch of stuff about value and expectations and such. But the more I think about this sentence in your first post, the less I understand how this thread got to two pages in the first place.
Maybe I have just been spoiled by companies like VALVe and Paradox Productions where if I send an email I can expect a reply to be waiting for me in my inbox within a week.

I understand product releases and the troubles with software development, but I've never seen such advertising for a non-existent product. For anyone who follows VALVe at all they have their own release announcements which are held in their own time system known as VALVe time, where soon means a week or so and a week or so means a month, but they never fail to deliver on the scale that Wizards has. They also do a great job at pr and customer relations which is, as I see it, not something that interests Wizards in the least bit.

Well i don't know about you, but every time I have contacted CustServ they have replied so what you claim is completely alien to me. But then again, that sort of hands-on approach is usually reserved for smaller (gourmet, to use a food term) companies of which WotC doesn't form a part of.

I liked the first Dungeon and Dragon magazines, but the amount and quality of content has been steadily slipping while the price is increasing. I also did not really find many situations in which I could use it.

Ok, I'm really amazed at how people believe this idiotic hearsay about a reduction in content, after the first four issues of Dungeon/Dragon the amount of content has remained constant (specifically so for Dragon which is the flagship magazine and the one I keep a better eye on). It is a myth that content has been reduced both page and feature-wise content has been constant.

How people believe the crap that the previews and playtest has replaced magazine content is beyond me, it requires a willingness to follow the loudest baying of the biggest ass to believe somethign without verification. So I will say this to those that are lost in the sea of ********: previews and non-class playtest never were, never have been part of the final pagecount of Dungeon or Dragon, they are essentially bonuses, something in addition to, not in place of magazine content.

Now if you can't find utility in the magazines then you're entitled and I encourage you not to spend money on it because you will not use it. I, and others, however do find good use in those magazines.

To whoever mentioned the OH NO CAN'T DISTRIBUTE THINGS ILLEGALLY, if I really had the mind to I could download all the 4e books, like I'm sure many others could. I'm disappointed because if I do wan't to get a copy of a pdf of a book I already purchased I have to get it in illegitimate ways instead of from Wizards. But I restrain myself because I still have hope in the company and don't want one of my favorite hobbies to die out. What I am complaining about is them not allowing the release of simple base information like they did with all previous versions so games could be run quickly but still impossible to run without the proper books. It's inconvenient to have to shuffle through books while hosting an online game because it creates very awkward periods of silence while you look up the weight of a greataxe or some other nearly insignificant piece of information.

Well I was referring to your complaint that: "so my group of players and I are forced to spend hours if not days going through and parcing our own books one by one since we can't share them online with each other even though we all have the books." If you want to share parts of your books online you can use IM's and not be breaking any laws or bruising sensitivities. Now, WotC has decided that selling PDF's was a net loss to them and that they couldn't trust people with digital versions of their books. You may not agree with that, I frankly didn't care much for the PDF's and their extinction is not of my concern. However, the compendium, if you were still paying for it, would have most of the information you are looking for. About your other concerns, they legitimate to you and there is nothing I can say about them as they aren't a matter of fact or myth (in the sense of the other stuff I have been replying to, such as the incorrect belief that no information was given about the non-existence of a complete VTT) as much as it is a matter of situation, one which I hope you can fix soon.

I think a more accurate food analogy would be ordering a cheeseburger, but being told that there's no cheese right now but they sent an employee to go get it for you while they make you a hamburger. Then telling you the employee got fired while on his way to the freezer and you can't have the cheeseburger you wanted but get the hamburger instead.

Yes I could have said no I will wait until he gets back to order and pay, and I could have asked the other employees what their thoughts were on the absent employee to find out that he was a slacker, but I was trusting enough to believe a company who I was a faithful customer of for almost 20 years that my cheese would be delivered.

Well, I simply don't see it like that, I as well bought into DnDi at soon as it went to a payment system, knowing what was available, what wasn't and what was being worked on. I knew those things not because of clairvoyance or a direct relationship with WotC, but because I did the sensible thing and informed myself and it is my belief that those who fail to inform themselves should suffer the inconveniences of ignorance so that we may learn to look before we jump.

To complain that WotC is evil because they stopped development on the VTT is to equate the bliss of ignorance (and I wish I had a better, less charged word) to victimhood.

PS:
In a somewhat unrelated issue, to ask the WotC rewind and begin development in the original VTT and Visualizer when they have explained why they have been placed on hold and after doing market research on what tool they should work on next is the epitome of entitlement.

Also logical thought will lead to the conclusion that a DM would benefit most from the current DnDi and that a DM is the main consumer of DnD products. Therefore to focus time and money on PC focused tools as opposed to DM tools is illogical, I for once I'm glad they dropped the ridiculous idea of the visualizer and have decided to focus on campaign tools because it is what most DM's (most consumers of DnDi) need at the moment.
I was going to post a whole bunch of stuff about value and expectations and such. But the more I think about this sentence in your first post, the less I understand how this thread got to two pages in the first place.

It got to two pages because WotC does not want to listen to what their audience is saying and we all know where that leads (TSR comes to mind).
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I amnot sure where the idea that WOtC doesn't listen comes from.

We have WotC_Trevor in these forums quite regularly reading and reponding to threads. I chat with him via IM at least 3 or 4 times a week. Some of my other NGs chat with him on a regular basis as well. The Status reports that I write up get routed to WotC directly, and don't get routed through CS.

WotC *is* listening to the complaints that are being posted in the forums. However, they feel that the direction that they are taking is the proper one for them, long term.

(Note, not speaking for WotC, the above is my opinion only, and is not meant to be repesentative of the opinion of WotC or any of its employees.)
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
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