Hybrid Classes Playtest Feedback

165 posts / 0 new
Last post
Now that we get to playtest the new hybrid classes, I thought it'd be best to start a thread that organizes feedback on this new system. I will organize feedback posted and put it in one of the OP's, then email it to WotC along with a link to this thread.

Please post the following information:
-Documentation of actual in-game playtesting results.
-What are the strengths that you have discovered with this system?
-What are flaws, errors, shortcomings, or other weaknesses you have discovered? Any exploitable "loopholes?"
-What other features would you like to see added to this system? Any specific requests regarding the classes we have yet to see?
Strengths:

-We like that the hybrid system provides, for the first time, a method for players to play two classes at the same time - as opposed to one class that "dips" into another.

-We like that the hybridized class features allow PCs to fill the defender role one round, and the striker role the next, but not at the same time. This maintains balance, and doesn't make "straight" defenders or strikers feel over-shadowed by hybrids.
Weaknesses:

Apparent Errors:
-The hybrid warlord's Inspiring Word can be used an extra time at 16th level, but the hybrid cleric's Healing Word has no such provision. Is this an oversight?

Issues with hybrid versions of marking and striking features:
-The hybrid features devalue racial paragon paths for defender and striker hybrids, since their class features may only be used with class powers or class-specific paragon path powers.

-Paragon paths that are role specific, instead of class specific (such as requiring Defender to "get in" instead of fighter) are devalued for the same reasons as above. For example, though Son of Mercy (Dragon 370) should work very well with Paladin/Fighters, it doesn't because it can't utilize either classes' "hybrid" mark.

-Not being able to use the features in conjunction with basic attack also causes problems.
Show
Basic attack are important with fighters' marks mostly for the reason of having to use ranged basic attacks to mark flying opponents. It might seem like a minor issue, but not being able to do your job just because the target is air borne or otherwise nonadjacent to you does a lot to hurt the role. Still being able to mark on a charge is also important.

Basic attacks are only sometimes important to striker classes, most if they have a Warlord in the party. I've played with a rogue and warlord, and if the rogue missed her sneak attack at a critical "kill it" moment, the warlord would often grant her a basic melee attack to get another chance to get it in for the round. Opportunity attacks also apply to melee strikers, primarily melee rangers builds.

Rule CONFUSIONS:
-Paragon Multiclassing: If a hybrid character decides to multiclass into another class and use paragon multiclassing, does he still swap out an at-will? Does this violate the rule about having one at-will power from each class?

-Epic Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): An epic hybrid swordmage can take the Total Aegis feat to mark all enemies in range at once. How does Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid) work with that? Would you get to make a new mark after ALL targets died / are overwritten, or after only one is?


MAJOR Loopholes:

Though the hybrid talent feat has the prerequisite of being a hybrid character, it doesn't specify that the class feature gained has to be from a hybrid class. So, as written, a hybrid character could gain a class feature from a third class via multiclassing, and bypass the hybrid versions of powerful features.
Example: A Warlord/Wizard multiclasses into Fighter. He then takes Hybrid Talent to learn Combat Challenge. He can do this because he is considered a fighter because of the multiclass rules, and does not already possess the hybrid version of Combat Challenge.


Minor Loopholes:
-Though the hybrid system is designed so that a defender/striker should not be able to mark and use a striker ability in the same round, this can be bypassed with immediate or minor attack powers. For example, a fighter/ranger could mark with a fighter power, and still get his hunter's quarry in on the same round with off-hand strike.


Concerns:

-It seems there is a consensus that this system has erred too much on the side of caution when it comes to power balance. We understand that R&D is wary of two classes combining into some super class, but the combination of low hp (any combination that doesn't include a defender will have wizard hp), low AC, fewer trained skills, and very sparse class features makes most hybrid classes unpalatable. Some suggestions on how to boost things without breaking balance will be posted below.

-Will classes that come out after PH3 have their hybrid versions published in the same books, or will the classes published in PH3 be all that we get? (No hybrid psions in multiclass play, etc.)
Suggestions:
(Fellow posters: This section is for suggestions on how to improve the system. If you have any ideas, please post them, and I will integrate them. If you don't like the suggestions here, speak up, and I will remove them.)

-More Defense for Defenders: Though hybrid defenders shouldn't do as well at defending as a "pure" defender, it seems like they currently can barely defend at all. The most common suggestion has been to let hybrids keep their shield proficiencies. Another suggestion is to also allow hybrids to ignore ability score requirements of armor proficiency feats for armor types one class would have proficiency in.

-More/Better Class Features: Obviously, you don't want each hybrid class to have too many features, either, but upping the ante a little bit would help a lot. Giving hybrid wizards spellbooks or hybrid rogues First Strike, (without having to spend the precious hybrid talent feat) is not going to destroy game balance. (A good goal would be that the hybrid classes have enough features so that Hybrid Talent is palatable, but not required, without hybrid classes outshining "straight" classes.)

-More Hybrid Feats: This does not mean "fix things with band-aid feats". It means that along with a balanced system, it'd be nice to have feats that offer extra options for Hybrids, in addition to Hybrid Talent.

-Fix HP and save space in one stroke:(Summary: Strong general rules is a better route than a whole lot of specific rules for each class.) Instead of putting out tables for each class like this:
Show

Druid
Role: Controller
Power Source: Primal
Key Ability: Wisdom
Secondary Abilities: Dexterity, Constitution
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Implements: Staffs, totems
Bonus to Defense: +1 Reflex or Will
Hit Points at 1st Level: 5
Hit Points per Level Gained: 2
Healing Surges per Day: 3
Class Skills: Arcana (Int), Athletics (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Endurance (Con), Heal (Wis), History (Int), Insight (Wis), Nature (Wis), Perception (Wis)
Class Features: Balance of Nature (Hybrid), Wild Shape
Why not just reduce it to this?:

Druid
Bonus to Defense: +1 Reflex or Will
Class Features: Balance of Nature (Hybrid), Wild Shape
(Then detail hybrid versions of class features, etc.)


This and the class features is all we really need re-printed for each class. For hit points and surges, just write in the base hybrid rules that it is the average of the two classes. (I know 4e is all about us not having to do too much work, but averaging two numbers isn't exactly calculating THAC0.) And we already had proficiencies and skills laid out for us in the base classes, so why are we printing that again? So all we really need is how the bonus to Defense should be distributed, and what features a hybrid version starts with.
The savings of page space would mean we would get a lot more actual product per $ - not just in PH3, but in every book that comes out with a new class afterward, as well. (The extra space could be used on more feats, paragon paths, etc!)





Playtest Results:


Paladin|Warlock: (Summary: TPK)
Show
"Note that we decided to try Paladin/Warlock because it's the only path recommended for charisma paladins.

His basic stats were:
Human Paladin / Warlock - Level 7
STR 08 CON 13 DEX 10 INT 15 WIS 14 CHA 19
Feats: Hybrid Talent (Fey Pact), Melee Training (Charisma), Action Surge, Sacrifice to Caiphon, Weapon Proficiency (Double Sword)
HP: 56 AC: 20 FORT: 17 REF: 18 WILL: 19
Equipment: +2 leather armor, +2 Pact Blade Double Sword, +2 cloak of resistance
(Note that he took proficiency with double sword because it could be used as an implement and a weapon, AND because it was his only way to boost AC. His str didn't meet the pre-reqs for any shields or armor.)

The party make up was him, a cleric MCed into paladin (the old fashioned way) to help me a little bit with the tanking, a wizard, an archery ranger, and a rogue.

We played Dungeon 7: The Catacombs of Koptila from Dungeon Delve.
We died in the first encounter. (A level 7 encounter, which we should have been able to beat, no problem.) We were fighting three level 8 Ogre Savages, and three level 3 Orc Raiders. The wizard went first, hit a savage and a raider. The the ogres went, and B-lined it for the wizard, and pounded on the poor guy, knocking him down to about 1/4 of his hp. Then the paladin/warlock and the cleric went, using our watered-down marks to try and take the heat off the wizard, and the cleric used a healing word on the wizard as well. The wizard was still bloody. Then the ranger and rogue went, trying to take down one of the ogres. Then the orc raiders went, and pretty much ignored the "defenders" to bring the wizard to 1 hp. The wizard used his action to second wind, then two of the ogres, ignoring the paladin/warlock's sad wannabe challenge, finished the wizard off, dead. The other attacked the cleric. Everyone in the party attacked the ogre that was attacking the cleric, bringing it to bloody. The orc raiders attacked the paladin/warlock. They had no problem hitting his 20 ac, and brought him to bloody. (That's right, the level 3 monsters brought the level 7 "defender" to bloody from full hp). The wizard's player decided he'd leave to grab take out. The ogres went again, no longer challenged by anyone, and knocked the paladin/warlock into negatives....
...and I think you can see how it went to TPK from there."
Fighter|Wizard: (Summary: Somewhat underwhelming and hard to play, but do-able)
Show
well i am running play tests through kobold hall. I create a 3 lvl 1 characters. a lvl 1 hybrid of two classes and lvl 1 members of those classes.

What ive run so far is the wizard fighter group(sword&board fighter,orb wizard, and hybrid sword &board wizard, all human). The two regular class accomplish their goal very well, but the hybrid cant defend nearly as well as the fighter nor control as well the wizard. the fighter still takes the brunt of attacks but the hybrid can defend enough to make sure the fighter doesn't get overwhelmed, and when extra control is needed he can do that.

when it comes to the ac question im finding it annoying that if i want to have good ac i need to take leather armor, which is why i ran it with the wizard with a heavy shield, which gave me the freedom to pick up the spell book from the hybrid feat and as the hybrid dailies were wizard dailies it made him more useful.

hybrids don't feel weaker they feel harder to play as they are secondary in their roles and have to learn to mix those roles in a meaningful way.

Wizard|Cleric: (Summary: Fun and effective)
Show

I tried playing a level 8 hybrid Wizard|Cleric in a four person party that was missing both a leader and a controller. Though I wasn't as good a healer as your typical leader, I still was able to do enough to keep the party truckin'. Since wisdom-based clerics have a lot of powers that are nearly as good at control as wizard powers, I also was able to do a good job at controlling. I still felt a little behind the power curve over-all, but then again, my build wasn't optimal. The main problem was dealing with Multiple Ability Dependency, but that was made up somewhat by the implement expertise feat (though between that and the mandatory Hybrid Talent feat, I felt a bit feat-starved. At least my DM let me have ritual caster for free):

Gandlin the Wise:

Race: Elf
Class: Level 8 Wizard|Cleric (MC Invoker)
STR : 08. -1 . . .INT : 16 +3
CON: 14 +2 . . .WIS: 18 +4
DEX: 14 +2 . . .CHA: 14 +2

Skills: Arcana (Int), Heal (Wis), Insight (Wis)

Feats (5):
Acolyte of Divine Secrets, Hybrid Talent (Staff of Defense), Implement Expertise (Staff), Astral Fire, Raging Storm, Acolyte Power
(Also, the DM is giving me Ritual Caster for free. So yay. )

Powers:

At-Wills: Sacred Flame (Cleric), Thunderwave (Wizard)
Encounters: Vanguard's Lightning (Invoker 1), Divine Glow (Cleric 1), Offering of Justice (Invoker 3), Fire Burst (Wizard 7)
Utilities: Shield (Wizard 2), Bastion of Health (Cleric 6)
Dailies: Beacon of Hope (Cleric 1), Fireball (Wizard 5)

Equipment of Note:
Symbol of Life +1 (level 2)
2 Masters Wands of Scorching Burst +1 (level 3)
Amulet of Mental Resolve +2 (level 7)
Staff of Ultimate Defense +2 (level 8)
Battle Harness Robes +2 (level 9)
Wizard|Ranger(Archer): (Summary: Satisfying, though suffers from MID)
Show
I decided to introduce and recommend the Hybrid Class play test rules to one of the players in my 4E campaign. He was rather unsatisfied with 4E because he was unable to make a character that resembled his character concept. This player in 3.5 played a rogue/wizard. He splashed a few levels of wizard to get some wizard spells that he liked such as many of the cantrips and some defensive wizard spells like shield and invisibility. He primarily likes to sneak around, pick locks, disarm traps and set traps. In combat he primarily stays in the back and used ranged weapon attacks.

When we started 4E, he was unable to really build a character that he liked. He was pretty much forced to choose between being roguish and not have access to cantrips or be a wizard and having to spend a bunch of feats (and many levels) to gain his roguish abilities. He eventually settled on being a ranger/rogue MC and forgo having access to cantrips.

His original 4E build is as follows:

Str 11, Con 14, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10

Ranger 2

Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Dungeoneering, Heal, Perception, Stealth, Thievery (Rogue MC).

Feats: Sneak of Shadows, Quick Draw, Lethal Hunter

Powers: Twin Strike, Nimble Strike, Hit and Run, Two-Fanged Strike, Hunter's Bear Trap, Unbalancing Parry.

The ranger class fit his concept quite well as he tends to hang back and attack at range. He primarily wields a repeating crossbow so he can take advantage of sneak attack from his rogue MC feat. Since he is at range all the time, he does not have very much opportunity to use sneak attack. It is not much of an issue since he can only SA once per encounter. Although he does carry daggers, he has not had the need to use it. His armour of choice is leather as he does not want penalties to his skill checks.

His character after rebuilding using hybrid classing is as follows:

Str 10, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10

Ranger-Wizard 2

Skills: Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Perception, Stealth, Thievery (Rogue MC).

Feats: Sneak of Shadows, Armour Proficiency (Leather), Ritual Caster.

Powers: Twin Strike, Cloud of Daggers, Scorching Burst, Two-Fanged Strike, Flaming Sphere, Shield.

This build is similar to his original build in that he has many roguish abilities (skills) and he is a ranged attacker. The advantage of the hybrid build is that he has access to the wizard cantrips which he really wants. Also, he has never used Nimble Strike, Hit and Run, or Unbalancing Parry. By replacing these with wizard powers, he ends up making better use of his power slots.

This build gives up the ability to use the hybrid Hunter's Quarry with non-ranger powers. This is not that much of an issue. Normally he either wants to attack many creatures (Scorching Burst), create bottlenecks (Cloud of Daggers) or concentrate damage on a single target (Twin Strike & HQ). He also has to spend feats on Armour Proficiency Leather and Ritual Caster.

After the rebuild, my friend felt that the hybrid option allows him to build a character much closer to his character concept than before. I found that he also used his wizard powers much more often than the powers he replaced. He did not miss any of the features his old build had other than Armour Proficiency (Leather) which he used a feat to gain back.

After one session of seeing a hybrid character in action, my impression is that the player enjoyed playing his character much more than before. He felt in 4E his is constrained in how he can build his character (compared to 3.5). The hybrid character option opens up more possibilities for him and makes him feel less constrained (although not entirely unconstrained.) In terms of player satisfaction, hybrid classing is a success in this case.

In terms of game balance, I feel that the ranger-wizard hybrid character is very strong. The main strength lies in the flexibility of the (archery) ranger-wizard hybrid. All powers are ranged powers. The option of attacking multiple targets or high damage to a single target allows this build to make significant contributions in many combat situations. Of all characters in my campaign, the ranger-wizard hybrid seems to make the best use of all his power slots. Other characters tend to have powers that they do not use very often. Also, this character performs either role of this hybrid (striker or controller) at range, so the lack of armour proficiencies and hit points is not that much of a disadvantage. A single feat can improve the AC enough to lessen this disadvantage even more.

The wizard powers tend to be very strong. Even with just the cantrips class feature, any ranged hybrid class with the wizard hybrid class would be a popular choice. I can see a laser cleric-wizard or warlock-wizard hybrid to be popular as the weaker defences of such hybrid combinations is less of an issue. There is a lot of synergy with these combinations even though they use different attack stats. The fact that the wizard uses Int as an attack stat helps the AC greatly. The wizard utility 2 spell, Shield, is also very strong in that it can provide a temporary upgrade in defences to negate a hit every now and then.

The Hybrid Talent feat seems very strong. Every hybrid class other than perhaps the archery ranger, has a class feature that is worth spending a feat on. I cannot see very many hybrid characters not taking this feat even though this particular player hasn't taken it yet. Since my impression of this hybrid character is that it is pretty strong compared to single classed, I feel it should remain as a feat instead of given for free (as some others have suggested). I really feel that giving Hybrid Talent for free would make it even more powerful that it is.

The hybrid version of Hunter's Quarry works well as is. The restriction of using ranger powers only for HQ damage still makes HQ very strong. The reason is that the hybrid HQ is still usable multiple times in an encounter. It is quite likely that if you want to deal high damage to a single target, you will not be using non-ranger powers. Although the restriction also excludes basic attacks from dealing HQ damage, this restriction is not very restricting. Even though other effects can allow the ranger to make a basic attack, it is likely that the ranger had already use a ranger power (like Twin Strike) and has already hit and dealt HQ damage. There is already known way to get the hybrid HQ to stack with other hybrid class features that deal extra damage. It is not necessary to also allow basic attacks to deal HQ damage.

In the future for this character, I can foresee a few issues. The first is the need for both a weapon (for ranger powers) and an implement (for wizard powers). Since the weapon this character uses is the repeating crossbow, it is quite likely that switching between the weapon and implement will be an issue. Switching weapons and implements require minor actions. Rangers and wizards already have abilities that require minor actions, so going back and forth while using the ranger-wizard abilities will limit what the character can do in a round. Some of this can be negated by taking Quick Draw or other feat that speeds up the drawing or stowing of items.

Another issue that I can see is the dependency on both Dex and Int. The build now has Dex 18 and Int 14. I can see that this character may have some issues hitting with wizard powers. Also, his Fortitude and Will will suffer at higher levels. In any case, some other hybrid or multiclass options face the same issues as well. Overall, the benefits will likely outweigh the disadvantages.

I am generally very satisfied with what I have seen in our first session with this particular hybrid class character. I look forward to seeing how it develops compared to the other single classed characters in my campaign.

Warlock|Fighter, Wizard|Rogue, Ranger|Rogue, and Cleric|Paladin party:
(Summary: Ok overall, though the Defenders had the most trouble due to low defense, hp, and clunky mark)
Show
I just recently completed a playtest involving a party of all hybrid characters (4 of them, all at 11th level). They were:

A Tiefling Hybrid Warlock/Fighter/Lifestealer THP monkey (with infernal pact hybrid talented).

An Elf Hybrid Wizard/Rogue/Flying Blade adept focusing on light blades and accuracy (with wand of accuracy hybrid talented).

A Longtooth Shifter Ranger/Rogue/Pack Runner focusing on mobility and on paired attacking powers.

A Dragonborn Cleric/Paladin MC Fighter Justicar focusing on being a decent leader and being moderately sticky.

I put them up against a level appropriate encounter of 4 Ogre Thugs, 2 Mezzodemons, and 2 Drow Warriors.

It went well, with the group being able to cover each other's weaknesses fairly well, and expending a moderate amount of resources (probably around 30%) to take care of the foes present. That being said, here are some of my impressions from the fight.

1. It's a pain in the ass not being able to mark or recieve sneak attack damage from BA's. The Warlock had to charge early on to get into melee quickly, and it would have benefited everyone if he had been able to do so.
My suggestion: For hybrid features say that they only apply to class powers, the powers of class specific paragon paths, paths requiring a the same role as the class the feature is from, non-specific paragon paths and ABAs (actual basic attacks, not powers that may be used as such). If two or more hybrid features could affect a single attack, choose one to apply. This would prevent abuse from minor-action attacks, allow fighters and pally's to mark on a charge or at range, and make hybrid characters more versatile without restricting them overly.

2. Heavy armor using classes that hybridize themselves with light armor classes are penalized unfairly. I really noticed this when I tried to make the tiefling warlock into a Hybrid Wiz/Ftr. It ate up most of his feats.
Suggestion: Allow hybrids to purchase armor proficency feats without considering prerequisites, as long as one of their hybrid classes would have been proficient with it. This would solve hybrid AC issues, and would still include the feat tax-plus there are probably relatively few people who would choose say, chainmail armor for a wizard/fighter when you could get roughly the same AC with high intelligence and leather armor, so it doesn't cause balance issues.

3. Hybrid Classes feel like true "jacks of all trades, masters of none" This is an excellent thing, as it captures the feel of someone who trains simultaneously in differing fields and forces players to think about how their abilities build off of one another. I had great fun, for example thinking about how I could use my wizard spells to set up combat advantage for myself and create distractions so I could hide. But none of the combinations that I played really felt underpowered.

4. Defender/Controllers are rather fragile, unless they load up on THP The warlock/fighter was fairly durable, but that was only because of crushing surge, the infernal pact, toughness, and dark one's favor. A wizard/fighter would have been out of luck.
Suggestion:Simply add the level 1 HP of the two classes together and divide by 2, then round down and add con mod for the first level HP, then average healing surges and HP by level. It's simple, it's easy and it makes fighters feel a wee bit more like fighters while still causing them to not be as sturdy as true defenders.

By and large though, you guys did an amazing job on the hybrid rules-kudos to you for making jacks and jills of all trades that actually work!

cccccombo breaker
so far, jsut from creating various characters, I see no real flaws with the system other than phb 2 stuff wasn't included (remedied in the other thread).

Primary strengths? mixing defenders and strikers.
cccccombo breaker
so far, jsut from creating various characters, I see no real flaws with the system other than phb 2 stuff wasn't included (remedied in the other thread).

Yeah, but the important part, the features, isn't really discussed there.

For example here are the missing controllers, as I think we'll be seeing them:

Hybrid Controllers:

Druid:
Role: Controller
Power Source: Primal
Key Ability: Wisdom
Secondary Abilities: Dexterity, Constitution
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Implements: Staffs, totems
Bonus to Defense: +1 Reflex or Will
Hit Points at 1st Level: 5
Hit Points per Level Gained: 2
Healing Surges per Day: 3
Class Skills: Arcana (Int), Athletics (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Endurance (Con), Heal (Wis), History (Int), Insight (Wis), Nature (Wis), Perception (Wis)
Class Features: Balance of Nature (Hybrid), Wild Shape

Wild Shape
This class feature functions exactly as the druid class feature (Player's Handbook 2, page 83).

Balance of Nature (Hybrid)
You gain the druid feature Balance of Nature (Player's Handbook 2, page 83). The feature functions as normal, except that the following text replaces the feature's second paragraph:

"You begin with three at-will attack powers. Throughout your career, one must be from your other hybrid class, two must be from the druid class, and one (and no more than one) must have the beast form keyword."


Invoker:

Role: Controller
Power Source: Divine
Key Ability: Wisdom
Secondary Abilities: Constitution, Intelligence
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Implements: Rods, staffs
Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, Reflex, or Will
Hit Points at 1st Level: 5
Hit Points per Level Gained: 2
Healing Surges per Day: 3
Class Skills: Arcana (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Endurance (Con), History (Int), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Religion (Int)
Class Features: Channel Divinity (hybrid)

Channel Divinity (Hybrid)
This class feature functions as the Invoker class feature (Player's Handbook 2, page 100), except that you only start with rebuke undead. You can still gain additional Channel Divinity powers through divinity feats, or by using the Hybrid Talent feat to pick up the Divine Covenant class feature.
For those that are interested, the official discussion thread is up: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1172527
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

as for a complaint, the hyrbrid system REALLY devalues basic attacks for classes with features that only work on (x) class powers.

From my other thread (discussion needs to move here for this)
all armors are in the listing
all weapons in the listing
all implements in the listing.
defense is halved (or if split, you make it a choice

initial hp is halved (round down)
hp/level is halved (round down)
HS's/day are halved (round down)

all trained skills are listed.classes that get to chose 4 get a bonus choice, classes that start with 2 automatically get a bonus choice (these stack).

avenger - OoE, works only on evenger powers
barbarian - toughy, rampage or rage strike
bard - song of rest and majestic word (MW 1/enc)
druid - wildshape
invoker - channel divinity is the only one that makes sense to me, what do you guys think? Build defining features are normally left out.
shaman - Companion spirit (this will need modification, cut the at will powers? [yes I mean both]), healing spirit
Sorcerer - spell source is the only feature :/ it's build defining. (allow none? makes hybrid talent useful)
warden - nature's wrath (choose one at will reaction?).

your druid looks good!
your invoker looks good!

I really tried to poke holes in your stuff, but couldn't.

What would you think of rounding up on primal hp? To represent those superior hp's.
For Sorcerer...

Hybrid Sorcerer
Role: Striker
Power Source: Arcane
Primary Ability: Charisma
Secondary Abilities: Dexterity, Strength

Armor Proficiencies: Cloth
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Implements: Daggers, staffs
Bonus to Defense: +1 Will

Hit Points at 1st Level: 6
Hit Points per Level Gained: 2
Healing Surges per Day: 3
Trained Skills: Arcana (Int), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha),
Diplomacy (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Endurance
(Con), History (Int), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha),
Nature (Wis)

Class Features:
Spell Source (Hybrid)
Choose a Spell Source, you gain the Source Power feature that provides extra damage from that Spell Source except you can only deal the extra damage with Sorcerer Powers and Sorcerer Paragon Path powers. When taking the Hybrid Talent Feat, you choose another feature of the Spell Source type you chose rather then Class Features.

This rules set certainly opens up a myriad of interesting possibilities and, apart from one or two very specific builds on the optimisation boards dealing with powers that some people think are already a bit broken, most people seem to think the rules are relatively balanced.

I play 4e conversion of a 2e shadow mage. Up until now I've played a hell-lock with flame and shadow-themed powers but I'm considering hybriding into wizard for a few shadowy wizard powers as well (actually mage hand and ghost sound are the spells I really wanted). The question is whether gaining cantrips and area effect powers is worth sacrificing leather armour, eldritch pact and pact boon, a more limited curse, and losing some hp. It's a tricky call and I'd better build her first to decide.

I understand that adding hybriding to the character generator would have been a real pain but it's a shame as I'm not sure if it will be possible to adjust hp and surges within the generator using the customisation tabs.
as for a complaint, the hyrbrid system REALLY devalues basic attacks for classes with features that only work on (x) class powers.

From my other thread (discussion needs to move here for this)


your druid looks good!
your invoker looks good!

I really tried to poke holes in your stuff, but couldn't.

What would you think of rounding up on primal hp? To represent those superior hp's.

Thankyou. I tried to think like a designer would ;)
The only classes I think should maybe have their hp rounded up is Warden and Barbarian? (4 for warden, 3 for barb), since the higher hp is in itself kind of a defining class feature....

For Sorcerer...
Hybrid Sorcerer
Role: Striker
Power Source: Arcane
Primary Ability: Charisma
Secondary Abilities: Dexterity, Strength

Armor Proficiencies: Cloth
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Implements: Daggers, staffs
Bonus to Defense: +1 Will

Hit Points at 1st Level: 6
Hit Points per Level Gained: 2
Healing Surges per Day: 3
Trained Skills: Arcana (Int), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha),
Diplomacy (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Endurance
(Con), History (Int), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha),
Nature (Wis)

Class Features:
Spell Source (Hybrid)
Choose a Spell Source, you gain the Source Power feature that provides extra damage from that Spell Source except you can only deal the extra damage with Sorcerer Powers and Sorcerer Paragon Path powers. When taking the Hybrid Talent Feat, you choose another feature of the Spell Source type you chose rather then Class Features.

Though I agree that the bonus damage is the feature we should see for sorcerer (each hybrid striker thus far has received their "striker damage" as their feature, the caveat about using the hybrid feat to gain part of a class feature seems like it could be problematic...
Though I agree that the bonus damage is the feature we should see for sorcerer (each hybrid striker thus far has received their "striker damage" as their feature, the caveat about using the hybrid feat to gain part of a class feature seems like it could be problematic...

Its the only way to allow a H-Sorcerer to gain the Source Soul feature without giving the entire Spell Source feature for Sorcerer and basically have no reason not to play Hybrid Sorcerer. If it is not allowed that way, then the H-Sorcerer could never use the Hybrid Talent Feat to make use of Sorcerer Paragon Paths. Or if they a Dragon H-Sorcerer were to wish for say, Draconic Reslience, they can spend their one Hybrid Talent for that instead.

A Sorcerer's equivalent to a "Class Features" are all dumped into Spell Source, and changes depending on which Spell Source they may choose. It is roughly fair to allow Hybrid Talent to choose on of the features of their chosen Spell Source for Hybrid Talent, since there is nothing else for them to choose.
MAJOR Loopholes:
Though the hybrid talent feat has the prerequisite of being a hybrid character, it doesn't specify that the class feature gained has to be from a hybrid class. So, as written, a hybrid character could gain a class feature from a third class via multiclassing, and bypass the hybrid versions of powerful features.
Example: A Warlord/Wizard multiclasses into Fighter. He then takes Hybrid Talent to learn Combat Challenge. He can do this because he is considered a fighter because of the multiclass rules, and does not already possess the hybrid version of Combat Challenge.

I saw this too. What I was thinking of is a ranger/rogue hybrid multiclassing to a warlock and then taking Hybrid Talent to gain Warlock's Curse. Using WC in conjunction with Hunter's Quarry or Sneak Attack would potentially allow you to deal double extra striker damage from WC in addition to either HQ or SA. You cannot combine HQ and SA, but you can combine one of these with WC every round. With the strain on ability scores, you probably would only choose one of the ranger or rogue in your hybrid.
<\ \>tuntman
Another good point was posted in the main discussion thread concerning the problems with the hybrid marks and strike not working with basic attacks:

Basic attack are important with fighters marks mostly for the reason of having to use ranged basic attacks to mark flying opponents. It might seem like a minor issue, but not being able to do your job just because the target is air borne or otherwise nonadjacent to you does a lot to hurt the role. Still being able to mark on a charge is also important.

Basic attacks are only sometimes important to striker classes, most if they have a Warlord in the party. I've played with a rogue and warlord, and if the rogue missed her sneak attack at a critical "kill it" moment, the warlord would often grant her a basic melee attack to get another chance to get it in for the round. Opportunity attacks also apply to melee strikers, primarily melee rangers builds.

By RAW your "major loophole" does NOT exist, I'll prove why.

Multiclass Feats
....If you take a class specific multiclass feat, you count as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites, Including prerequisites for....

So you only count for the matter of prerequisites, not for the matter of choosing benefits of feats. Thus when the Hybrid Talent says you pick a class feature from one of the classes of which you are a member you do NOT count as a member of the multiclass class and thus cannot select one of its features. Thats pure RAW by the letter.
Good feedback. The point about fighter's basic attacks not marking is well taken.

Keep it coming.

Feedback like that is exactly what we are asking for.
Mike Donais. Cryptozoic R&D
Also posted to the longer thread.

Here are my thoughts on this system:

  • It does seem that when you mix two classes this way, the designers simplistically favored "rounding down" in nearly every way. Examples:
    • Hit points: They could have said "2 1/2" instead of "2" for, as an example, Ranger and Cleric, and then if you combine them you get back to 5, instead of 4. Obviously you would round down if it came to 4 1/2 (like Ranger/Wizard). Or maybe even allow adding these fractions at each level and round down at the end, if you wanted to be really balanced.
    • The armor proficiency "penalty": obviously intended for balance, but seems somewhat arbitrary. The funny part will be when Paladin/Rogues whine that they can't Sneak Attack in plate mail. But I think they took it too far in the playtest. If I were doing it, I would say that if the class proficiencies are off by more than one "level" of armor, I'd take the lesser one and add one "level" to is. So a Fighter/Wizard (an admittedly poor combination) would get Leather, and a Paladin/Thief (or even Fighter/Thief) would get Hide. It seems as though some degree of armor experience should "rub off" from the more military class. If I were DMing I would probably houserule this in.
    • Class features: nerfed a little too much. Wizard gives up Arcane Implement Mastery, Ritual Casting, and spellbook. Other classes give up a lot of class features as well. I would favor a more comprehensive mix-and-match--give hybrid classes more class features but make certain ones "pick this OR the one for your other hybrid class". So you still wouldn't overload and make the hybrid too powerful; you'd just make the character favor one over the other. So maybe a Cleric/Wizard can either do Channel Divinity or have Arcane Implement Mastery. You could even do a sort of point-buy system: Consider that to make the original classes balanced, the game designers were on some level thinking in terms of how much each class feature added. Well, why not open this up? Tell us how much Channel Divinity is worth and let us choose it, or not. Note that Hybrid Talent, while simpler, is not a great solution; you should offer enough to be equivalent to a non-hybrid class, and get rid of the feat entirely because any more class features would make it broken. Having to give up a feat for this is a weak solution, and it's one nearly that every character will take (the same argument lots of us make against PH2's Weapon Expertise/Implement Expertise), which means it acts to remove flavor from the game.
    • Skills: Also too weak. A Ranger/Rogue gets a total of 3 bonus skills plus three skills (total of six, same as a regular Rogue), but a Cleric/Wizard gets no bonus skills and thus has only 3 instead of the minimum 4 in the PH. I would make the minimum 4, reduce the hybrid Rogue to 1 bonus skill, and also say "no more than six" (although I think that with the previous adjustments I suggested, the "no more than six" rule becomes redundant).
    • In general, I think they favored simplicity in hybrid character generation a little too much. Hybrids aren't as simple, and if you want them to remain competitive, I think the rules need to be a little more comprehensive. Otherwise you're relying mainly on their flexibility of powers and skill/feat selection to make them competitive, which may not be a safe bet.

  • You definitely want the player to come up with a convincing background to play a hybrid character. Anybody who is just doing it because it seems cool, or thinks they are min-maxing somehow, should go home. And write that background: Tell the party why they shouldn't laugh at your Dwarf Rogue/Wizard ("Ooh, he's got a wand, careful or he'll stick you with it!). Did it involve time in a hobgoblin prison with halflings, culminating in a daring escape? Whatever it is, it had better be good.
  • Specific gripes:
    • One area where it doesn't seem balanced is that you can do double-striker damage per round...so you could Sneak Attack for rogue damage and then, either as an immediate or opportunity action, or as an action point, hit with Hunger's Quarry. I would only allow one type of striker bonus damage per round.
    • The Hybrid Cleric's Healing Word is missing the "2nd time at 16th level" that the Hybrid Warlord's Inspiring Word has.

The swordmage warding class feature worries me for a shielding swordmage / wizard. A large amount of the shielding swordmages effectiveness is in being able to mark a creature and have good defenses. Consider a 16 con / 18 int (including +2 racial to int) human build or a 16 con / 14 dex / 18 int Eladrin build. The character picks most of his powers from the wizard, snagging a swordmage power occasionally (and there are some good ones).

Pros:
  • Better hitpoint progression (12 + Con to start, 5/lvl)
  • Mage Hand to make swapping implements easier
  • Any one-handed implement maintains +3 warding (or else wizard can use a blade as implement, which is almost as good)
  • A equivalent (or better?) melee at-will in Swordburst over Thunderwave (no friendly fire, works better if you are surrounded)
  • Defender class AC for 2 feats (leather, warding), and most wizards are taking leather proficiency anyway.
  • Most of the effectiveness of aegis (remarking a creature isn't necessary for the shielding swordmage -- it's fine if the creature wanders away)
  • Ranged capabilities from the wizard powers, which help the swordmage stay away from his marked target.
  • Eladrin get access to arcane reach for swordburst and a teleport power; humans get another wizard at-will
  • Character who prefers ranged (wizard powers), but can effectively flank and absorb damage on the frontline to support teammates (high AC).
  • Arcane power looks to be adding support for Int/Con wizards with summoning.

Cons:
  • No ritual casting (but can gain as a feat)
  • No spellbook (but wizards usually have a preferred power anyway)
  • No swordbond, which hurts, because implements constantly need to be summoned back to hand as a standard action...oh...wait nevermind.
  • Fewer wizard encounter/daily powers, which are generally strikery and nice (but the swordmage has a handful of nice ones, which is all that is needed)
  • Less flexible marking (but still enough)
  • No implement. An actual sacrifice, but warding (+3 AC) and marking seem like an excellent trade (ignoring the broken orb issues)
  • Arcane Power might introduce enough different options to effectively weaken this build.
Just wanted to reitearte what I said in the other thread. A freat idea, but:


I would have liked some options with what features you gained. If every class had two or three features, and you chose one, that would be great.

Creating something like a warlock / ranger just feels like a waste. +d6 to every power (minus basic attacks?), but no other class features. That is a major step down from either the straight warlock or straight ranger. If we could choose, at least we could take a warlock pact, and ranger quarry, and not have every hybrid warlock looking so similar.

Anothwer thing I was hoping for was to hybrid druid and ranger, to solely get the animal companion...but now i have to spend a feat on it :p (dropping the +d6 quarry would have been something i'd happily do!)



You could even give all the features as full (no "hybrid" stuff), but class them as "major" features, and allow each hybrid character to only choose one major, and one minor. So, they could take sneak OR quarry OR curse, but use it for all attacks. You could have magestic word OR healing word, but use it twice an encounter. Then, take a lesser feature from the other class, that would not only help make the character more interesting, but allow for varied characters. How about a hybrid cleric *without* healing? a hybrid striker *without* the extra damage? more options make the hybrid classes retain some flavour, and not all become carbon copies.


I also want to add my agreement on fixing up the 1/2 HP errors, which will cause some class matches to fall behind on the HP front quickly.
Also posted to the longer thread.

Here are my thoughts on this system:

  • It does seem that when you mix two classes this way, the designers simplistically favored "rounding down" in nearly every way. Examples:
    • Hit points: They could have said "2 1/2" instead of "2" for, as an example, Ranger and Cleric, and then if you combine them you get back to 5, instead of 4. Obviously you would round down if it came to 4 1/2 (like Ranger/Wizard). Or maybe even allow adding these fractions at each level and round down at the end, if you wanted to be really balanced.
    • The armor proficiency "penalty": obviously intended for balance, but seems somewhat arbitrary. The funny part will be when Paladin/Rogues whine that they can't Sneak Attack in plate mail. But I think they took it too far in the playtest. If I were doing it, I would say that if the class proficiencies are off by more than one "level" of armor, I'd take the lesser one and add one "level" to is. So a Fighter/Wizard (an admittedly poor combination) would get Leather, and a Paladin/Thief (or even Fighter/Thief) would get Hide. It seems as though some degree of armor experience should "rub off" from the more military class. If I were DMing I would probably houserule this in.
    • Class features: nerfed a little too much. Wizard gives up Arcane Implement Mastery, Ritual Casting, and spellbook. Other classes give up a lot of class features as well. I would favor a more comprehensive mix-and-match--give hybrid classes more class features but make certain ones "pick this OR the one for your other hybrid class". So you still wouldn't overload and make the hybrid too powerful; you'd just make the character favor one over the other. So maybe a Cleric/Wizard can either do Channel Divinity or have Arcane Implement Mastery. You could even do a sort of point-buy system: Consider that to make the original classes balanced, the game designers were on some level thinking in terms of how much each class feature added. Well, why not open this up? Tell us how much Channel Divinity is worth and let us choose it, or not. Note that Hybrid Talent, while simpler, is not a great solution; you should offer enough to be equivalent to a non-hybrid class, and get rid of the feat entirely because any more class features would make it broken. Having to give up a feat for this is a weak solution, and it's one nearly that every character will take (the same argument lots of us make against PH2's Weapon Expertise/Implement Expertise), which means it acts to remove flavor from the game.
    • Skills: Also too weak. A Ranger/Rogue gets a total of 3 bonus skills plus three skills (total of six, same as a regular Rogue), but a Cleric/Wizard gets no bonus skills and thus has only 3 instead of the minimum 4 in the PH. I would make the minimum 4, reduce the hybrid Rogue to 1 bonus skill, and also say "no more than six" (although I think that with the previous adjustments I suggested, the "no more than six" rule becomes redundant).
    • In general, I think they favored simplicity in hybrid character generation a little too much. Hybrids aren't as simple, and if you want them to remain competitive, I think the rules need to be a little more comprehensive. Otherwise you're relying mainly on their flexibility of powers and skill/feat selection to make them competitive, which may not be a safe bet.

  • You definitely want the player to come up with a convincing background to play a hybrid character. Anybody who is just doing it because it seems cool, or thinks they are min-maxing somehow, should go home. And write that background: Tell the party why they shouldn't laugh at your Dwarf Rogue/Wizard ("Ooh, he's got a wand, careful or he'll stick you with it!). Did it involve time in a hobgoblin prison with halflings, culminating in a daring escape? Whatever it is, it had better be good.
  • Specific gripes:
    • One area where it doesn't seem balanced is that you can do double-striker damage per round...so you could Sneak Attack for rogue damage and then, either as an immediate or opportunity action, or as an action point, hit with Hunger's Quarry. I would only allow one type of striker bonus damage per round.
    • The Hybrid Cleric's Healing Word is missing the "2nd time at 16th level" that the Hybrid Warlord's Inspiring Word has.


This is extremely helpful. I tried to incorporate it into the OPs as well as I could. If you feel I left something important out, let me know!

Also, do you have anything to add to the suggestions section?
As an aside, you can edit hp and number of surges in the generator. The only thing you can't edit is automatic classsfeatures like Eldritch Blast - you can edit out the text but not the headers.

1e & 2e multiclass characters were always slightly weaker in terms of hp - it was the accepted price for versatility. It opens up more variation in hp and surges and makes for a more interesting mix.

The loss of so many class features is a bitter pill to swallow though, particularly when multiclass characters get to spend feats to buy watered-down extra features. However, perhaps a paragon hybrid feat could allow a character to purchase a second class feature and/or other hybrid feats could allow hybrid characters to apply sneak attack damage to non-rogue powers once per encounter etc. There's a lot of possibilities for future hybrid supplements and Dragon articles there!
Just wanted to reitearte what I said in the other thread. A freat idea, but:


I would have liked some options with what features you gained. If every class had two or three features, and you chose one, that would be great.

Creating something like a warlock / ranger just feels like a waste. +d6 to every power (minus basic attacks?), but no other class features. That is a major step down from either the straight warlock or straight ranger. If we could choose, at least we could take a warlock pact, and ranger quarry, and not have every hybrid warlock looking so similar.

The warlock pact does nothing without the ability to curse. What I think might be better for the hybrid warlock is no damage bonus curse and the pact boon feature
I haven't lost my mind I've simply misplaced it
The warlock pact does nothing without the ability to curse. What I think might be better for the hybrid warlock is no damage bonus curse and the pact boon feature

Not quite true -- the pact will also have an impact on the effects of all the Encounter attack spells.
Issues with hybrid versions of marking and striking features:
-The hybrid features devalue racial paragon paths for defender and striker hybrids, since their class features may only be used with class powers or class-specific paragon path powers.

-Paragon paths that are role specific, instead of class specific (such as requiring Defender to "get in" instead of fighter) are devalued for the same reasons as above. For example, though Son of Mercy (Dragon 370) should work very well with Paladin/Fighters, it doesn't because it can't utilize either classes' "hybrid" mark.

So it doesn't work with Racial PPs but what about racial powers in general, like the dragonborn?

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

What they need to do I think instead of wording the striker and fighter features so they can only be used with that classes powers is word them so you cannot stack them or so that they supersede each other. That way you can use any power with hunters quarry but you cannot quarry and curse the same target. The end result becomes the same, you can't stack striker features (or combat challenge) but you get more versatility out of your powers this way. Also it would bring the Fighter in line with the other defenders as I would suggest wording the other defender features in a similar manner preventing you from divine challenging and swordmage aegising the same target which if I'm not mistaken you can do with the current wording.
Also it would bring the Fighter in line with the other defenders as I would suggest wording the other defender features in a similar manner preventing you from divine challenging and swordmage aegising the same target which if I'm not mistaken you can do with the current wording.

I'm pretty sure you can't divine challenge and aegis the same target as they are both marks and a creature can only be marked once. Therefore when you apply the second mark to the same creature the first mark goes away.....although you probably are right about needing to reword Combat Challenge for fighters because the second paragraph can trigger off of any mark which means the hybrid-fighter can get the benefits from both combat challenge and either aegis or divine challenge.
So it doesn't work with Racial PPs but what about racial powers in general, like the dragonborn?

racial attack powers like the dragonborn's will not trigger any of the hybrid striker damages or the hybrid fighter mark
I haven't lost my mind I've simply misplaced it
I'm going to house rule on those. As long as my players are doing silly lockdown combo's I don't see it as a big issue. (alot similar to the vertical forced movement rule)
Ive had this thought:

While I agree with keeping the armor proficiency equal to the lower class, I think classes should be able to keep sheilds if either of the classes have it. This I think makes something like the wizard/fighter a more playable hybrid.

It makes defender hybrids more defendry anyway.
Here is what I posted at another forum on this topic . . . some of the user names and post references won't apply, but should get the point across:

To solve the fighter issue, we would first need to determine exactly what they were trying to 'fix' by watering it down. Assuming they didn't want a constantly-marking scorching burst, I think the following idea would work. That is, make the restriction, "You can't use this feature with at-will powers from your non-fighter class."

That would allow you to mark with encounter and daily wizard powers, for example, but not constantly run around marking with scorching burst and thunderwave. If that still proved problematic, then just cut the whole other class . . . but do it exclusively, so that the fighter/X could still mark with basic attacks and dragon breath.

Also, deadsmurf's idea from several posts ago was pretty much what I was going to suggest. My version's a bit different, so here it goes: tag the 'striker' class features with some kind of keyword, like some of the features are currently tagged [hybrid]. Then say that only one [striker] feature can be used per round. Under this method, the avenger's oath could also be tagged [striker], so as to be mutually exclusive with hunter's quarry, etc. For things like the barbarian's howling strike, the power could be specifically keyed in the barbarian hybrid section as counting as a [striker] feature, so as not to function with warlock's curse, etc.

Keterys stated he thought deadsmurf's version of the idea was broken, but I'm not sure why. I don't think it excludes striker/striker combinations from being viable, in that having two different [striker] features just makes you more versatile in applying your damage (or whatever). I guess warlock/ranger would be kind of silly . . . but that's true for many reasons Sneak attack/warlock's curse would be great; curse when you don't have combat advantage, and otherwise do sneak attack. Even if you had CA all the time, cursing could still be useful for some powers/effects. Also think of a barbarian/avenger, who would howling strike when charging, but otherwise roll twice when his oath would apply. These combinations are more versatile in their striker-ness, just as a defender/defender has more versatile (but not stacking) marking.

This method also solves the problem Asmor brought up a few pages ago (which is also something I had considered before reading this whole thread -_- ), which is the prospect of some future supplement introducing cross-class powers. That is, a power that is available to both rogues and rangers, and is therefore accessible to both classes, and is therefore benefited by the [striker] feature of each, according to the current hybrid rules. I guess this is kind of weird design space that may never actually develop, but the fact that at least two people have considered it means it's something to watch out for.

An alternative would be a derivation of my above fighter suggestion . . . just specifically exclude the 'other class' from gaining benefits of your [striker] feature. This way you could still apply one or the other to your basic attacks and whatnot. Then the issue is if you multiclass into a third class and can apply both [striker] features to powers of that class since it isn't either of your 'other classes' . . .

Another thing . . . my version of the pdf shows the warlord gaining a second use of his word at level 16, but not the cleric. Is this intentional? Perhaps to prevent a warlord/cleric from having four words at level 16? Perhaps because the cleric's Healer's Lore is considered to be powerful enough to make up for it? Or maybe it's just an oversight one way or the other . . . thoughts?

~ fissionessence
Overall I am really enjoying hybrid classes so far, and it has really helped a few of my players get the kind of characters they've wanted all along.

I just wanted to add a quick suggestion.

I was creating and testing a few hybrid characters when I noticed that I would lose class features for my hybrids even when both normal versions of the classes had said feature. For example, I was trying out a Wizard/Cleric, and it felt slightly awkward that while both classes normally have ritual caster, when combined they lose that feature.

There is a similar situation when creating a hybrid class from two classes that both have the Channel Divinity class feature. Why would a Paladin/Cleric lose channel divinity by being a hybrid of two classes that normally posses this feature?

I would personally like to see a provision in the rules that allows the hybrid to retain any class features that both of their classes normally posses. Just some feedback of something that felt a bit awkward to me while testing .
Druid:
...


"You begin with three at-will attack powers. Throughout your career, one must be from your other hybrid class, two must be from the druid class, and one (and no more than one) must have the beast form keyword."

The problem with this is it means a human can take an extra at will from their other hybrid class, or from the druid, but only if it isn't beast.

A better wording could be:

"Throughout your career, one must be from your other hybrid class, and two must be from the druid class. One of the druid level 1 at-will attack powers must have the beast form keyword, and the other must not. If you gain additional level 1 at-will attack powers (for example, from being human), you can choose it freely from those remaining at-will powers."

or something like that...



The more I am looking at it, I think they have cut too much out of all the classes. The base for skills should be four, not three, and at most, only half the features should be denied. If you cut each class in half, then merge them, you have something that should approach a balanced hybrid. But if you round-down, and drop off many features, then you arrive at a hybrid that is quite weak compared to a standard character.
Ive had this thought:

While I agree with keeping the armor proficiency equal to the lower class, I think classes should be able to keep sheilds if either of the classes have it. This I think makes something like the wizard/fighter a more playable hybrid.

It makes defender hybrids more defendry anyway.

I was thinking that, too. We just playtested a delve with a paladin|warlock, and he had the second lowest AC in the group. It ended up being a TPK. I'll write up a summary of what happened and post it later.
I was thinking that, too. We just playtested a delve with a paladin|warlock, and he had the second lowest AC in the group. It ended up being a TPK. I'll write up a summary of what happened and post it later.

right his ac is what? at best 16 (con build with chain armor) or 15 (cha build with decent int). If the shield proficiency was added this would be 18 or 17.
I was thinking that, too. We just playtested a delve with a paladin|warlock, and he had the second lowest AC in the group. It ended up being a TPK. I'll write up a summary of what happened and post it later.

hah, god. that's horrible.

I think this hybrid system has started out great - underpowered rather than overpowered.

I think maybe each hybrid class needs a table, and depending on which class you hybrid with, you get an extra feature/feat/skill, like this:

You are a hybrid cleric, here are the features you gain by combining with other classes:

Fighter Heavy Shield prof.<br /> Paladin Channel Divinity<br /> Ranger Toughness or defensive mobility<br /> Rogue Rogue Weapon Talent<br /> Warlock Prime Shot<br /> Warlord Light shield prof.<br /> Wizard Ritual Casting

Of course, these extras would be different depending on the combination... so really you'd need a big table.

Just an idea.
hah, god. that's horrible.

I think this hybrid system has started out great - underpowered rather than overpowered.

I think maybe each hybrid class needs a table, and depending on which class you hybrid with, you get an extra feature/feat/skill, like this:

You are a hybrid cleric, here are the features you gain by combining with other classes:

Fighter Heavy Shield prof.<br /> Paladin Channel Divinity<br /> Ranger Toughness or defensive mobility<br /> Rogue Rogue Weapon Talent<br /> Warlock Prime Shot<br /> Warlord Light shield prof.<br /> Wizard Ritual Casting

Of course, these extras would be different depending on the combination... so really you'd need a big table.

Just an idea.

I disagree for a reason i hope you understand. That's very complicated do we really need to have a table for every class? No thats needlessly complicated.
I disagree for a reason i hope you understand. That's very complicated do we really need to have a table for every class? No thats needlessly complicated.

By that argument the whole hybrid system is needlessly complicated. Personally I've thought that 4e has had a lack of the complexity that makes it a good system, its too simple and to restrictive in some areas (particularly creative combat situations). I don't see it as needlessly complicated, I see it as fixing what is a very underpowered system.
please dont make me out of context. From my point of view adding in a unique table for every class is needlessly complicated and it even forces us to make the tables every time a new class comes out. I dont want new updates to the cleric when the phb 5 comes out three years from now.
While I see your point there perhaps there is a better way to handle it. I still think its simple enough to have classes with like features get them, for example the cleric/paladin getting channel divinity, or the ranger/warlock getting prime shot.
yes but HOW do you do that? for prime shot its easy, just grant primeshot. but for channel divinity you have a problem. whose channel divinity do you give the cleric or the palidans? honestly its easier to led the hybrid feat to handle that than a "give all similar class feautres approach" maybe even make other hybrid feats that benefit hybrid classes of the same power source (for channel divinity).
right his ac is what? at best 16 (con build with chain armor) or 15 (cha build with decent int). If the shield proficiency was added this would be 18 or 17.

Note that we decided to try Paladin/Warlock because it's the only path recommended for charisma paladins.

His basic stats were:
Human Paladin / Warlock - Level 7
STR 08 CON 13 DEX 10 INT 15 WIS 14 CHA 19
Feats: Hybrid Talent (Fey Pact), Melee Training (Charisma), Action Surge, Sacrifice to Caiphon, Weapon Proficiency (Double Sword)
HP: 56 AC: 20 FORT: 17 REF: 18 WILL: 19
Equipment: +2 leather armor, +2 Pact Blade Double Sword, +2 cloak of resistance
(Note that he took proficiency with double sword because it could be used as an implement and a weapon, AND because it was his only way to boost AC. His str didn't meet the pre-reqs for any shields or armor.)

The party make up was him, a cleric MCed into paladin (the old fashioned way) to help me a little bit with the tanking, a wizard, an archery ranger, and a rogue.

We played Dungeon 7: The Catacombs of Koptila from Dungeon Delve.
We died in the first encounter. (A level 7 encounter, which we should have been able to beat, no problem.) We were fighting three level 8 Ogre Savages, and three level 3 Orc Raiders. The wizard went first, hit a savage and a raider. The the ogres went, and B-lined it for the wizard, and pounded on the poor guy, knocking him down to about 1/4 of his hp. Then the paladin/warlock and the cleric went, using our watered-down marks to try and take the heat off the wizard, and the cleric used a healing word on the wizard as well. The wizard was still bloody. Then the ranger and rogue went, trying to take down one of the ogres. Then the orc raiders went, and pretty much ignored the "defenders" to bring the wizard to 1 hp. The wizard used his action to second wind, then two of the ogres, ignoring the paladin/warlock's sad wannabe challenge, finished the wizard off, dead. The other attacked the cleric. Everyone in the party attacked the ogre that was attacking the cleric, bringing it to bloody. The orc raiders attacked the paladin/warlock. They had no problem hitting his 20 ac, and brought him to bloody. (That's right, the level 3 monsters brought the level 7 "defender" to bloody from full hp). The wizard's player decided he'd leave to grab take out. The ogres went again, no longer challenged by anyone, and knocked the paladin/warlock into negatives....
...and I think you can see how it went to TPK from there.