Character Builder Needs to be able to run on a Mac

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This character builder needs to be able to run off a Mac without having to run vmFusion or some such... really, make it web-based and OS independent. I have been a D&D player for 25 years or so now, but this is the kind of thing that makes me consider quitting this RPG for another one where I feel more welcome.
Get a PC. Do you complain when popular games come out which won't run on your Mac? Sure do. Why won't they make them run on your Mac? Because there are more gamers with PCs than with Macs. Get over it. It's the way things are.

At lease you *can* run it with vmFusion or whatever. Also, since you've been a D&D player for 25 years, maybe you remember the character builder which was going to be released by WotC with 3.0 (it was Windows only) and the eTools from CMP (also Windows only.) So, really, in those 25 years, your Mac has never been welcome, except through emulation. What has prompted you to feel less welcome now?

In all reality, once they get the bugs and stuff sorted out, they might come out with a Mac compatible one (or if Microsoft would port their .net framework to the Mac, it would be even sooner.) So, just use vmFusion for now and give it time.

Also, they've said from the get-go that the tools would be PC only...
Keep in mind that you, for reasons of your own, chose the Macintosh platform. I find it unlikely that you made that investment without being aware that the bulk of commercial software, past, present, and (forseeable) future simply doesn't support that platform

WotC isn't singling YOU out as a customer, they're simply following what market research told them was the best course of action - which was to focus their time, money, and efforts on development for Windows.

You also make the curious statement about finding another RPG that makes you feel more welcome. Do you have one in mind that has made a Macintosh based character generator?
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Keep in mind that you, for reasons of your own, chose the Macintosh platform. I find it unlikely that you made that investment without being aware that the bulk of commercial software, past, present, and (forseeable) future simply doesn't support that platform

WotC isn't singling YOU out as a customer, they're simply following what market research told them was the best course of action - which was to focus their time, money, and efforts on development for Windows.

You also make the curious statement about finding another RPG that makes you feel more welcome. Do you have one in mind that has made a Macintosh based character generator?

Actually, the current marketing information show that over 50% of high-end laptops sold are macs. It's only cheapo and wired computers that are PC dominated. And in our current economy you can see that of the major computer suppliers only one has said that they do not forsee sales dropping off a cliff. Hint. It's not Dell. Hint #2, it begins with "A"

I was also surprised to see that Wizards was not doing a web-based system. I mean -- it's not like the character builder as we now see it would be at all difficult to build as a web-app. Pretty much all my work applications are web-based and those which aren't run just as well on Macs and Linux boxes. It *is* the way the world is moving, so to see Wizards fail to move that way is disappointing.

As you say, market research told you not to waste time on mac users. Is it surprising, then, that mac users might think the same way about you?

Turning your opening statement around: You, for reasons of marketing, chose to ignore the Macintosh platform. I find it unlikely that you made that investment without being aware that the bulk of non-PC users simply won't see that as being friendly to them. The fact that the market is moving rapidly away from desktop PC apps is something your marketing missed. Hopefully -- because I DO hope you succeed -- you will get enough PC owners to buy your stuff so that as that segment dwindles you can fund making a modern software system. But as the original poster said, until that point, statements that "yeah, we just don't think you mac users are worth the effort" is never going to sound friendly.

I understand your marketing people. I happen to think they're not totally with it on current trends, but hey, these things happen. But blaming mac users for not buying a PC is a little silly. I'd think of a different response next time ...
This character builder needs to be able to run off a Mac without having to run vmFusion or some such... really, make it web-based and OS independent. I have been a D&D player for 25 years or so now, but this is the kind of thing that makes me consider quitting this RPG for another one where I feel more welcome.

Eight now, WOtC is playing the odds that is going to bring them more money and customers. The userbase that has a windows-based PC is much, much higher than that that currently uses Macs. Thus, it only makes sense for them to aim towards the market that will bring them the most money. Once they have the bugs worked out, and the program is running well, I do fully expect them to work on porting it over to Mac computers. However, until then, it looks like it will require some sort of Windows Emulator for Macs and *nix based machines.

Actually, the current marketing information show that over 50% of high-end laptops sold are macs.

You need to be careful when reading marketing info. It is mostly spin. Like the info you provided above.

You know how they decide if it is a "high-end" machine?? By the price. And seeing how Mac generally cost a significant amount more than PCs, it appears that the 50% is a meaningful number, when it actually isn't. The number of PCs available (not sold, but simply available for purchase) at the higher price ranges favoured by Macs is much, much lower than the number of macs available at comparable prices. This isn't due to popularity, it is simply due to the fact that PCs simply don't cost as much as macs.
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
All current Macs run windows. I bought Windows Vista and using Apple's Boot Camp installed it and am running the CB without issues.

Vista is not horrible, just full of little things that make you realize how great Macs are. Using Boot Camp (and perhaps holding your nose) means that you CAN run the software.

I doubt seriously if it will ever be ported to Mac.

Let's face it, it's a fairly simple program (undoubtedly the biggest task was getting together the format for the data) basically a database. The game table is much more complicated and I think it's the wrong direction for D&D anyway. I don't expect it next year or really ever.

None of this stuff is ever gonna be Mac is my guess.
Keep in mind that you, for reasons of your own, chose the Macintosh platform. I find it unlikely that you made that investment without being aware that the bulk of commercial software, past, present, and (forseeable) future simply doesn't support that platform

WotC isn't singling YOU out as a customer, they're simply following what market research told them was the best course of action - which was to focus their time, money, and efforts on development for Windows.

You also make the curious statement about finding another RPG that makes you feel more welcome. Do you have one in mind that has made a Macintosh based character generator?

Yeh what WolfStar here said for the most part, although there is something a little annoying about his pulpit spiel.

Your options (the way I see it)
1. Use what you have at the moment and run VMWare on it for DnDI.
2. If you need a PC for mid-range gaming buy a new iMac and just run Bootcamp on it. (and VMware for that matter)
3. If you need a PC for high-range gaming then buy or build a dedicated rig.

But seriously don't bring the whiny "I'll go elsewhere" argument in here. WoTC never said they would support native Macintosh development, and you just put another stereotypical post out there for people to pick on.

Having said that... Macs RULE!
Get a PC. Do you complain when popular games come out which won't run on your Mac? Sure do. Why won't they make them run on your Mac? Because there are more gamers with PCs than with Macs. Get over it. It's the way things are.

At lease you *can* run it with vmFusion or whatever. Also, since you've been a D&D player for 25 years, maybe you remember the character builder which was going to be released by WotC with 3.0 (it was Windows only) and the eTools from CMP (also Windows only.) So, really, in those 25 years, your Mac has never been welcome, except through emulation. What has prompted you to feel less welcome now?

In all reality, once they get the bugs and stuff sorted out, they might come out with a Mac compatible one (or if Microsoft would port their .net framework to the Mac, it would be even sooner.) So, just use vmFusion for now and give it time.

Also, they've said from the get-go that the tools would be PC only...

Forget PC. I had a few in my house, and have given them away - I hate the platform. This is my choice, you are allowed your choice. I am a casual gamer - and I only buy games that are out on Mac. And the programs you mentioned... yeah, I have beta copies of them on disc... irritated me then too.

My intention was not to start a "Mac vs PC" flame thread - people from both camps can pull out what they think are a multitude of facts saying one platform better than the other. I don't take to the "which platform is more prevalent" since there are so many shades now... Do you only count computers purchases in the last year? Do you count ones bought on eBay? How do you count multi-computer houses? Apple has been posting giant profits many more consecutive quarters - and increasing in sales volume compared to itself year over year - much more so than any of the big PC makers... no matter how you spin it, Apple users are a bigger voice now - and to ignore us is to risk pushing us away.

There are a few third party programs out there that will run on Mac... and I for one will gladly 'vote with my dollars' and buy them. It sounds like Wizards may still be on the fence about 3rd party developers - which means fewer people are willing to risk anything developing for D&D... so I might go with something else. For me, I would rather switch to a different game that has no computer software support at all simply on principal... and if I am inclined to switch to something different - there is a good chance my group will switch with me.

Not that your response really matters - other than it brings attention to this thread, which is really the whole point. So thanks!
Yeh what WolfStar here said for the most part, although there is something a little annoying about his pulpit spiel.

Your options (the way I see it)
1. Use what you have at the moment and run VMWare on it for DnDI.
2. If you need a PC for mid-range gaming buy a new iMac and just run Bootcamp on it. (and VMware for that matter)
3. If you need a PC for high-range gaming then buy or build a dedicated rig.

But seriously don't bring the whiny "I'll go elsewhere" argument in here. WoTC never said they would support native Macintosh development, and you just put another stereotypical post out there for people to pick on.

Having said that... Macs RULE!

Heh - I just figured it needs to be brought up now and then... since if you don't mention it, the developers may not be aware of the need.

Thanks for putting your 2 cents in!
All current Macs run windows. I bought Windows Vista and using Apple's Boot Camp installed it and am running the CB without issues.

Vista is not horrible, just full of little things that make you realize how great Macs are. Using Boot Camp (and perhaps holding your nose) means that you CAN run the software.

I doubt seriously if it will ever be ported to Mac.

Let's face it, it's a fairly simple program (undoubtedly the biggest task was getting together the format for the data) basically a database. The game table is much more complicated and I think it's the wrong direction for D&D anyway. I don't expect it next year or really ever.

None of this stuff is ever gonna be Mac is my guess.

Yeah, I put BootCamp on my main machine (a Mac Pro) a year or two ago, and never found myself booting over to it. I actually put it on there because I bought all of the software available from ProFantasy (which is PC only) just because I thought their software was that good, and I wanted to support them with my dollars. Problem is, after installing the software, I hated mucking around in Windows so much that I never jumped over. I have since taken Boot Camp off of my machine, and I could consider doing vmWare Fusion - I'm sure it will work as you have already said it will... but I still feel like this post needed to be made... I know that there will always be PC bigots out there who feel vindicated in some way by verbally bashing the Mac platform, but there are a lot of Mac users out there, and a growing number of us, and even if we can get programs like this to work via one additional layer of software... we would like to see our platform supported fully.
Eight now, WOtC is playing the odds that is going to bring them more money and customers. The userbase that has a windows-based PC is much, much higher than that that currently uses Macs. Thus, it only makes sense for them to aim towards the market that will bring them the most money. Once they have the bugs worked out, and the program is running well, I do fully expect them to work on porting it over to Mac computers. However, until then, it looks like it will require some sort of Windows Emulator for Macs and *nix based machines.


You need to be careful when reading marketing info. It is mostly spin. Like the info you provided above.

You know how they decide if it is a "high-end" machine?? By the price. And seeing how Mac generally cost a significant amount more than PCs, it appears that the 50% is a meaningful number, when it actually isn't. The number of PCs available (not sold, but simply available for purchase) at the higher price ranges favoured by Macs is much, much lower than the number of macs available at comparable prices. This isn't due to popularity, it is simply due to the fact that PCs simply don't cost as much as macs.

When you say the user base is much much higher, I wonder how that can be fully appreciated... since the software provided has almost always been PC-only... that is to say, if you were to look at the userbase, you have already singled out Mac-only users.

I don't know what their numbers are... maybe they don't make it publicly available, but my guess is the percentage of the user-base that would prefer to use a Mac over a PC for this type of thing would be similar to World of Warcraft. My expectation is there would still be more PC users, but when I used to play (before kicking the habit - 18 months sober now thank you very much), I was surprised at the significant number of people who had both platforms at home, and preferred playing WoW on the Mac.

I agree most marketing info is spin... on both sides. I also don't buy the "Macs are much more expensive" argument - for every article stating they are more expensive, I can find a compelling one that says they are not... not that really pertains to this thread anyway - in the end (per my post above) Apple appears to be increasing the rate of sales more than other computer companies in the last decade or so... which is why I feel justified in making a post saying Macs should be more supported with programs such as this.
Keep in mind that you, for reasons of your own, chose the Macintosh platform. I find it unlikely that you made that investment without being aware that the bulk of commercial software, past, present, and (forseeable) future simply doesn't support that platform

WotC isn't singling YOU out as a customer, they're simply following what market research told them was the best course of action - which was to focus their time, money, and efforts on development for Windows.

You also make the curious statement about finding another RPG that makes you feel more welcome. Do you have one in mind that has made a Macintosh based character generator?

Off the top of my head, PC Gen is a great Character Generator. Of course, if Wizards is going to be hostile to 3rd party developers, who is going to want to make 4E anything until they are sure Wizards is not going to sink them? For me, I could go back to 3.5 with little remorse... heck, there are still things I liked better about 2E.

If I was to walk away from 4E, I would likely either go back to one of those... or go with Paizo's Pathfinder... maybe Warhammer... really any platform that does not make me feel specifically put out on the street for being a Mac user.

I would even be fine with "we only have limited dollars, and while we would love to develop for all platforms, we only can hire 2 programmers who don't know how to program in a way that allows access for non-windows users. We appreciate your business and hope that we will someday be able to provide support for your platform of choice as well."

Instead it feels more like Mac users are specifically being snubbed - I say this having talked with a D&D game designer in a convention in the past (who was presenting some 3E material before 3E came out) - noting he was using a Mac, I asked him about Wizards and being Mac friendly - to which his response was he did not know why, but there seems to be some bias against Macs engrained in the Wizards culture.

Hence, part of the reason why I felt I needed to post - if only to give a brief reminder that there are users out there that not only want support on the Mac Platform, but who lose joy in the game when they feel like they are being shunted.
in this weekks podcast David Noonin said he agrees with the pro mac support...

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

Eight now, WOtC is playing the odds that is going to bring them more money and customers. The userbase that has a windows-based PC is much, much higher than that that currently uses Macs.

Indeed they are, but given that a cross platform engine would have given them access to the whole market, I'm kind of confused by the decision.

Heck as they mention in the current Podcast, they could have designed it to also be mobile device friendly as well.... because if you want to talk the future of computing it is in mobile devices.
Off the top of my head, PC Gen is a great Character Generator. Of course, if Wizards is going to be hostile to 3rd party developers, who is going to want to make 4E anything until they are sure Wizards is not going to sink them? For me, I could go back to 3.5 with little remorse... heck, there are still things I liked better about 2E.

If I was to walk away from 4E, I would likely either go back to one of those... or go with Paizo's Pathfinder... maybe Warhammer... really any platform that does not make me feel specifically put out on the street for being a Mac user.

I would even be fine with "we only have limited dollars, and while we would love to develop for all platforms, we only can hire 2 programmers who don't know how to program in a way that allows access for non-windows users. We appreciate your business and hope that we will someday be able to provide support for your platform of choice as well."

Instead it feels more like Mac users are specifically being snubbed - I say this having talked with a D&D game designer in a convention in the past (who was presenting some 3E material before 3E came out) - noting he was using a Mac, I asked him about Wizards and being Mac friendly - to which his response was he did not know why, but there seems to be some bias against Macs engrained in the Wizards culture.

Hence, part of the reason why I felt I needed to post - if only to give a brief reminder that there are users out there that not only want support on the Mac Platform, but who lose joy in the game when they feel like they are being shunted.

It's worth noting that many people inside WotC are Mac fans. Scott Rouse, who I believe is D&D Brand Manager (I forget his exact title, so I may be off) is a Mac user, in fact, and his R&D presentation at DDXP earlier this year was projected off his Mac.

Someone else (Noonan?) recently posted a Dragon article on how to manage all the files for your campaign, and the screenshots he provided were from his Mac.

So it isn't a matter of Mac being snubbed, per se (though, as someone with a Mac in my home, I can see how it would feel that way) - it's a matter of having limited funds, and unfortunately not being able to please everyone with those funds.

Windows, for most companies, is still the "best bet" for successful software - it still has the broadest installed support base, period.

Please note, that I strongly support the idea that Wizards should provided cross-platform support ASAP (out of the gate would have been nice, but it just wasn't in the cards, apparently).

My post was more to peel away some of what I felt to be hyperbole. Wizards isn't calling you up to say "HA! We don't want your dirty MAC money!" It's simply an issue that they've chosen (at this time) to focus on the broader Windows market. The unfortunate side effect of that is that it does leave some customers out, but they had their reasons for this choice.

By all means, keep reminding them that there are Mac and Linux fans out there - all of whom have chosen their platforms for their own reasons. I, personally, would just ask that you be careful how you deliver the message. You don't want to appear overly emotional in your request, or else it (unfortunately) can be easy to "write you off" as someone who can't be reasoned with.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Actually, the current marketing information show that over 50% of high-end laptops sold are macs.

Actually, that is based on price. Macs cost more for the same performance. Macs still only make up ~3-4% of personal computers in use. Ergo, not large enough mkt share to develop for.

If someone wants a PC app to run on a Mac maybe they should be willing to pay for the added dev costs?
It's worth noting that many people inside WotC are Mac fans. Scott Rouse, who I believe is D&D Brand Manager (I forget his exact title, so I may be off) is a Mac user, in fact, and his R&D presentation at DDXP earlier this year was projected off his Mac.

Someone else (Noonan?) recently posted a Dragon article on how to manage all the files for your campaign, and the screenshots he provided were from his Mac.

So it isn't a matter of Mac being snubbed, per se (though, as someone with a Mac in my home, I can see how it would feel that way) - it's a matter of having limited funds, and unfortunately not being able to please everyone with those funds.

Windows, for most companies, is still the "best bet" for successful software - it still has the broadest installed support base, period.

Please note, that I strongly support the idea that Wizards should provided cross-platform support ASAP (out of the gate would have been nice, but it just wasn't in the cards, apparently).

My post was more to peel away some of what I felt to be hyperbole. Wizards isn't calling you up to say "HA! We don't want your dirty MAC money!" It's simply an issue that they've chosen (at this time) to focus on the broader Windows market. The unfortunate side effect of that is that it does leave some customers out, but they had their reasons for this choice.

By all means, keep reminding them that there are Mac and Linux fans out there - all of whom have chosen their platforms for their own reasons. I, personally, would just ask that you be careful how you deliver the message. You don't want to appear overly emotional in your request, or else it (unfortunately) can be easy to "write you off" as someone who can't be reasoned with.

Thanks Wolfstar, your post eases my angst somewhat!
Agree with the OP. I would love for this to run on Mac. I don't think the argument here is which platform is better. To each his own i say.
The point is that if this had been developed dual platform it would have impacted a larger customer base. Much bigger than 3%-4% increase I'd wager.
So we can hope that they eventually see the light and release a Mac version.

In the meantime CharBuilder will be the sole reason i that i have a PC partition on my Mac. Every game/program i own (which is alot) runs on both Mac and PC except for CharBuilder.
My PC will keep its resting place as a doorstop/end table for my office.
I believe that they will eventually release the tools for Macs. However, I understand why they did the primary development for PCs. I could see a software company, who is very experienced with developping software on multiple platforms at once doing so. WotC however, is not such a beast. It is much safer for them to develop for one platform, and then, once it goes gold, to work on porting it over to macs.
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
Another Mac user here. Also agree with it needing to run dual platform. But arguing about it won't help. Neither will snide replies like WolfStar's "that's just the way it is, get over it" comment. We would never need any new options or innovations if we all just shut our mouths and settled for the way it is.

Raising awareness to the actual number of Mac users in the RPG market WILL help. Keep the thread rolling.

Peace.
Actually, that is based on price. Macs cost more for the same performance. Macs still only make up ~3-4% of personal computers in use. Ergo, not large enough mkt share to develop for.

If someone wants a PC app to run on a Mac maybe they should be willing to pay for the added dev costs?

As I made in an earlier post, market-share I think is a misguided value... what does one really mean when they say personal computers in use? If I have a work PC and a home Mac, is that a wash? Is it still a wash if I use my work PC 80% of the time? I don't have a work PC... I now use a Mac for my work machine. What if I use 3 Macs on a regular basis, and my wife uses one on a regular bases... does that count as 4? What about the MacBook we have plugged into our TV to watch movies on? Does that count? What about the computer I have strapped to my treadmill? Does my house count as 6 Macs 0 PCs? 15 years ago when a household pretty much had one computer at any given time "market share" was pretty easy to calculate.... now I think it is a bit more nebulous.

For what it is worth, I am always willing to pay a premium to have things supported on a Mac... but I know that not every Mac user feels that way. Heck, I have contacted developers with people who have been able to make Mac installers of their software pro bono... took all of 1 hour.
Agree with the OP. I would love for this to run on Mac. I don't think the argument here is which platform is better. To each his own i say.
The point is that if this had been developed dual platform it would have impacted a larger customer base. Much bigger than 3%-4% increase I'd wager.
So we can hope that they eventually see the light and release a Mac version.

In the meantime CharBuilder will be the sole reason i that i have a PC partition on my Mac. Every game/program i own (which is alot) runs on both Mac and PC except for CharBuilder.
My PC will keep its resting place as a doorstop/end table for my office.

I agree... my guess is it would be closer to the Mac mix for WoW.
As I made in an earlier post, market-share I think is a misguided value... what does one really mean when they say personal computers in use?

In this forum I am talking about HOME computers in use. I am in the s/w bus. I sell/mtk to Home, SOHO, SMB & Enterprise.

So, over 90% of computers used by individuals at home are Windows.

Anything else you'd like to know about this market?
In this forum I am talking about HOME computers in use. I am in the s/w bus. I sell/mtk to Home, SOHO, SMB & Enterprise.

So, over 90% of computers used by individuals at home are Windows.

Anything else you'd like to know about this market?

Yeah... so if a home has a mix of computers... does each computer count as "1"? If I have a Mac Pro with Boot Camp on it to run this software... does my computer count as both a PC and a Mac? If no, how can you tell? If yes, then the % of Macs is masked by users who are working around the lack of Mac support, hence the demand is greater than expected.
I would also like to add that I'm impressed that this thread has some good conversation in it, and did not disintegrate into baseless flaming.

Thank you everyone!
Yeah... so if a home has a mix of computers... does each computer count as "1"?

When you figure a percentage. You total all machines in use by type. A PC with windows as the O/S counts as Windows. A MAC counts as one MAC.
When you figure a percentage. You total all machines in use by type. A PC with windows as the O/S counts as Windows. A MAC counts as one MAC.

And a Mac running windows?
And a Mac running windows?

That would be a mac. A Mac is defined as H/W from Apple running one of its Mac O/Ses.

Now, if the Apple OS had been stripped out and isn't on the machine it would be a Windows machine.
Actually, the current marketing information show that over 50% of high-end laptops sold are macs. It's only cheapo and wired computers that are PC dominated. And in our current economy you can see that of the major computer suppliers only one has said that they do not forsee sales dropping off a cliff. Hint. It's not Dell. Hint #2, it begins with "A"

I was also surprised to see that Wizards was not doing a web-based system. I mean -- it's not like the character builder as we now see it would be at all difficult to build as a web-app. Pretty much all my work applications are web-based and those which aren't run just as well on Macs and Linux boxes. It *is* the way the world is moving, so to see Wizards fail to move that way is disappointing.

As you say, market research told you not to waste time on mac users. Is it surprising, then, that mac users might think the same way about you?

Turning your opening statement around: You, for reasons of marketing, chose to ignore the Macintosh platform. I find it unlikely that you made that investment without being aware that the bulk of non-PC users simply won't see that as being friendly to them. The fact that the market is moving rapidly away from desktop PC apps is something your marketing missed. Hopefully -- because I DO hope you succeed -- you will get enough PC owners to buy your stuff so that as that segment dwindles you can fund making a modern software system. But as the original poster said, until that point, statements that "yeah, we just don't think you mac users are worth the effort" is never going to sound friendly.

I understand your marketing people. I happen to think they're not totally with it on current trends, but hey, these things happen. But blaming mac users for not buying a PC is a little silly. I'd think of a different response next time ...

In re-reading this, I'd like to make it clear - I don't work for WotC in any capacity. While I volunteer a little of my time in these forums to keep things on-topic, I'm not in any way, shape, or form a part of WotC (though, I'd be happy to give them my resume if they asked. ;) ).

I also never blamed anyone for buying a mac. I simply pointed out that I find it unlikely that someone buying a Mac would be surprised to find that more resources are available for PCs than for Mac.

Frankly, I think this is the biggest weakness of the Mac platform. If/when more software options are available for Mac, I wonder what will become of Windows. The same could be said for Linux, mind, but Mac has one up on Linux - the appearance (true or not) of user-friendly stability.

I digress.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Thanks Wolfstar, your post eases my angst somewhat!

Then I've met my goal. Glad I was able to give some perspective.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

That would be a mac. A Mac is defined as H/W from Apple running one of its Mac O/Ses.

Now, if the Apple OS had been stripped out and isn't on the machine it would be a Windows machine.

So the truth is that no one has any idea really then, because if you want to run Linux, you either hand build, or you buy a PC (counted as Windows) and trash the OS.

Windows claims 90% market share because 90% of "over the counter" sales have Windows bundled with them, would likely be a better way of looking at it.

Now I'm not going to deny that Windows is omnipresent, its certainly got a huge portion of the market, but its not like anyone is asking for the character builder to be done in some obscure code that only runs on Mac or Linux. People want cross-platform code; like web based, or java based. Not a .Net product, which is what we got, unfortunately. I ended up not getting use out of the Character Builder because it doesn't run on my primary machine, a Linux box.
So the truth is that no one has any idea really then, because if you want to run Linux, you either hand build, or you buy a PC (counted as Windows) and trash the OS.

No, the truth is that that there is analytic s/w that is run on websites that determines the OS of the visitor. There is also extensive survey & s/w sales analysis that is done. If you were familiar with the s/w industry you would know this already.

Over 90% of personal computers in use are windows machines.
No, the truth is that that there is analytic s/w that is run on websites that determines the OS of the visitor. There is also extensive survey & s/w sales analysis that is done. If you were familiar with the s/w industry you would know this already.

Over 90% of personal computers in use are windows machines.

OK.... this is a rat hole, that really does not pertain to the fact that there is a demand and desire for this software to be run on a Mac.

However, the logic you are basing this on is still fundamentally flawed. The reason why it is flawed is people are looking for a "quick" answer to what is the install base out there... and the logic you just stated does not fully grasp that. It makes the assumptions that not only do all computers out there connect to the internet, but they connect to the internet equally.

I am familiar with the s/w industry... I have been working in it for various companies for the last decade. What it boils down to is you can tell that 90% of computers on the internet at a given time, on average are Windows users... but that is NOT the same thing as saying 90% of computers out there are Windows boxes.

But then we live in a society that believes everything should be quickly and easily assigned a number - which is where most of the misconceptions come around.
Puts on VCL hat

Enough with the sniping at each other folks.

Mark Twain once said: There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Now I am not saying that anyone is lieing, just that anyone can pull statistics out of the air to support their position, so I am going to ask all sides to stop.

Yes, WotC is not currently developping their DDI tools for Macs that we know of. They have made the decision to aim for the PC market first. We don't, as of yet, know whether or not they plan on aiming at other OSes yet, but, assuming that the tools are a success, I think that they would be silly to not at least explore that possibility.

Takes off VCL Hat
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
Puts on VCL hat

Enough with the sniping at each other folks.

Mark Twain once said: There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Now I am not saying that anyone is lieing, just that anyone can pull statistics out of the air to support their position, so I am going to ask all sides to stop.

Yes, WotC is not currently developping their DDI tools for Macs that we know of. They have made the decision to aim for the PC market first. We don't, as of yet, know whether or not they plan on aiming at other OSes yet, but, assuming that the tools are a success, I think that they would be silly to not at least explore that possibility.

Takes off VCL Hat

Thank you!
This character builder needs to be able to run off a Mac without having to run vmFusion or some such... really, make it web-based and OS independent. I have been a D&D player for 25 years or so now, but this is the kind of thing that makes me consider quitting this RPG for another one where I feel more welcome.

Your presence in this Forum indicates that you're running the program now; do you see how that undermines your argument a bit?

It seems to me that there's a fundamental problem with arguing that WoTC needs to develop a Mac-specific version of the software when its being made by people all of howm have shown a ready willingness to take the extra step to get it to run on their machines anyway.

I suspect WoTC understands that any (semi-)serious Mac user has access to PC emulation software or already has it installed, rendering the development of a dedicated version of the program much less urgent.

"I am running the program fine right now, but you should make it easier for me!" doesn't sound the same the call to action that "My skills run off the page when I print my character sheet..." does. When people in this very thread are saying they've added emulation software SOLELY for the purpose of running this program, that's not a powerful incentive to rush to placate that supposedly irate user base.

-Lefty
Jim Crocker, Managing Partner Modern Myths, LLC Northampton, MA www.modern-myths.com
Your presence in this Forum indicates that you're running the program now; do you see how that undermines your argument a bit?

It seems to me that there's a fundamental problem with arguing that WoTC needs to develop a Mac-specific version of the software when its being made by people all of howm have shown a ready willingness to take the extra step to get it to run on their machines anyway.

I suspect WoTC understands that any (semi-)serious Mac user has access to PC emulation software or already has it installed, rendering the development of a dedicated version of the program much less urgent.

"I am running the program fine right now, but you should make it easier for me!" doesn't sound the same the call to action that "My skills run off the page when I print my character sheet..." does. When people in this very thread are saying they've added emulation software SOLELY for the purpose of running this program, that's not a powerful incentive to rush to placate that supposedly irate user base.

-Lefty

Actually, no, I have not installed the program... I have only read about it and heard about it from others. I would love to use it - and would have already done so if it was OS independent (web-based) or there was a Mac version available.

Once again, the purpose of the thread is to call to attention the fact that there is demand for support of our platform. Don't put other people down just because we are voicing what we want... I don't go around saying what you think is important is less important than what I think is important.
Don't put other people down just because we are voicing what we want... I don't go around saying what you think is important is less important than what I think is important.

Not that your response really matters - other than it brings attention to this thread, which is really the whole point. So thanks!

"Now. Who said that? Rudolph? Rudolph's mama?" -- Scott Calvin, Santa Clause 3

Telling me that my response (what I think is important) doesn't matter, is the same as saying that my response (what I think is important) isn't important. So, you actually *do* go around saying that what I think is important is less important that what you think is important.
"Now. Who said that? Rudolph? Rudolph's mama?" -- Scott Calvin, Santa Clause 3

Telling me that my response (what I think is important) doesn't matter, is the same as saying that my response (what I think is important) isn't important. So, you actually *do* go around saying that what I think is important is less important that what you think is important.

I try to keep my statements generic - not directed at people, unless they are a response to something directed directly at me... like yours were. That's the difference. It's the difference between constructive and deconstructive discussion.
Get a PC. Do you complain when popular games come out which won't run on your Mac? Sure do. Why won't they make them run on your Mac? Because there are more gamers with PCs than with Macs. Get over it. It's the way things are.

Sure, but more and more games are available on the Mac. CoD4, WoW, Spore, are some recent ones.

At lease you *can* run it with vmFusion or whatever. Also, since you've been a D&D player for 25 years, maybe you remember the character builder which was going to be released by WotC with 3.0 (it was Windows only) and the eTools from CMP (also Windows only.) So, really, in those 25 years, your Mac has never been welcome, except through emulation. What has prompted you to feel less welcome now?

Not true. CMP also sold the datasets for PCGen, which runs happily on my Mac.

In all reality, once they get the bugs and stuff sorted out, they might come out with a Mac compatible one (or if Microsoft would port their .net framework to the Mac, it would be even sooner.) So, just use vmFusion for now and give it time.

Also, they've said from the get-go that the tools would be PC only...

I found it short sighted, that when WotC decided to build this new software from scratch in 2005/6/7 (?), they decided to use Windows-only technology, while it would have been a similar effort to build a cross-platform application from the start.

From most sources you see, Mac is at about 8-12% market share, but if I just look around me, I think it's much higher under the average DnD playing Geek population.

I don't think it's something WotC can change any more, as they are now very tied in with the Windows platform, but I think they've alienated easily 20%+ of their potential customers from the get go, while they could have developed the entire thing cross platform, without extra effort, if they had designed for it from the start.

It's not 1995 any more, cross platform developement has come a long way since then. As a developer working on cross-platform tools full time, I know there are mature solutions.

What I understood, is that they had some leftovers from the DnDO adventure that they thought they could warm up again fro the DDI was what made them go Windows only.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

Sure, but more and more games are available on the Mac. CoD4, WoW, Spore, are some recent ones.

Not true. CMP also sold the datasets for PCGen, which runs happily on my Mac.


I found it short sighted, that when WotC decided to build this new software from scratch in 2005/6/7 (?), they decided to use Windows-only technology, while it would have been a similar effort to build a cross-platform application from the start.

From most sources you see, Mac is at about 8-12% market share, but if I just look around me, I think it's much higher under the average DnD playing Geek population.

I don't think it's something WotC can change any more, as they are now very tied in with the Windows platform, but I think they've alienated easily 20%+ of their potential customers from the get go, while they could have developed the entire thing cross platform, without extra effort, if they had designed for it from the start.

It's not 1995 any more, cross platform developement has come a long way since then. As a developer working on cross-platform tools full time, I know there are mature solutions.

Well spoken sir!
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