Bait & Switch

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Silly me.
I just subscribed to a whole year.

I assumed that once D&D insider started charging it would be a complete system.

Its like buying a car, but receiving the steering wheel, and then being told.
Come back next week we might have an engine.
Come back next month we might have some wheels.
Come back in two months, we might have the keys.

But, we will start charging you the complete price for our incomplete product.

Silly me for trusting Wizards.
Silly me.
I just subscribed to a whole year.

I assumed that once D&D insider started charging it would be a complete system.

Its like buying a car, but receiving the steering wheel, and then being told.
Come back next week we might have an engine.
Come back next month we might have some wheels.
Come back in two months, we might have the keys.

But, we will start charging you the complete price for our incomplete product.

Silly me for trusting Wizards.

They were clear on this issue, they sold part of DDI right now, they will give you that part for the price and time you paid for, even if other parts come online (functional) for an increased fee.

I have been correcting users that appeared to believe the lower price was for the complete package in something like 24 to 48 hours after that belief was posted.

It was clear to me then and it is still clear mow, web content part of DDI is now fee.
Plans are always subject to change.
But, we will start charging you the complete price for our incomplete product.

you forgot the best part of it - the price you are paying, is only fixed for what you are getting now.

for the other applications, pricing will most likely be higher, and you probably won't get them without upgrading your subscription.

oh and: it was not a bait and switch. they never told you that the rest of the applications will be there if you subscribe. evolution takes its way and your money, i guess....
Here be dragons: IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cydyvkj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c54g6ac/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/csw6fhj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cbxbgmp/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cz7v5bd/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/ccg9eld/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c8szhnn/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cp68b5u/.gif)
56767308 wrote:
Sadly, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting Next to be a great game. It has to do with wanting Next to determine who won the Edition War. [...] For those of us who just want D&D Next to be a good game, this is getting to be a real drag.
57870548 wrote:
I think I figured it out. This program is a character builder, not a character builder. It teaches patience, empathy, and tolerance. All most excellent character traits.
THE BIG PRINT GIVES and the small print takes away.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insidernews/20081015a

4. Will the web-only subscription package remain an option after the full package becomes available?

We haven’t decided the details of future pricing and packages yet. The one guarantee that we’re making at this stage is that we will honor the full term you sign up for now. If you buy 12 months of web content at $4.95 per month then you will get 12 months of web content at $4.95 per month, no matter what we decide to do with our pricing in the future.

Seems to me that even if the pricing goes up for new features, they'll honor your year purchase.

4.95 a month for full access to the options that are available is pretty reasonable, which is why I went ahead and signed up. /shrug
What you have forgotten about is anyone that might not be watching the web everyday for DDI news. If I am a new person to D&D, I buy the books and I see in the back this great new DDI thing. I sign up and find out that almost everything that is the back of every book is not there. What am I to think?

I have not signed up, si I do not know. On signup, does it tell you excplicitly what is included in the package and what is not included?
WOTC Podcast: "The web is a shortcut" "Piracy was a big thing"
I just checked, while it does say what you get, it does not say that you do not have access to other features. Could be a grey area for people unfamiliar with what has gone on.

I am not sure that Wizards cares, (or should) but I can see some people being surprised at what might not be included and that the advertised stuff will cost more.
WOTC Podcast: "The web is a shortcut" "Piracy was a big thing"
you don't need to really sign up to get the information:

1 Year Dungeons and Dragons Insider Subscription
With a subscription to D&D Insider, you gain instant access to each month's Dragon and Dungeon magazine content, as well as PDF downloads of the magazine issues at the end of the month. In addition, you gain full use of the D&D Compendium database, as well as three Bonus Tools: the Encounter Builder, Monster Builder, and Ability Generator.

this is everything they have over there.
Here be dragons: IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cydyvkj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c54g6ac/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/csw6fhj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cbxbgmp/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cz7v5bd/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/ccg9eld/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c8szhnn/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cp68b5u/.gif)
56767308 wrote:
Sadly, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting Next to be a great game. It has to do with wanting Next to determine who won the Edition War. [...] For those of us who just want D&D Next to be a good game, this is getting to be a real drag.
57870548 wrote:
I think I figured it out. This program is a character builder, not a character builder. It teaches patience, empathy, and tolerance. All most excellent character traits.
What you have forgotten about is anyone that might not be watching the web everyday for DDI news. If I am a new person to D&D, I buy the books and I see in the back this great new DDI thing. I sign up and find out that almost everything that is the back of every book is not there. What am I to think?

I have not signed up, si I do not know. On signup, does it tell you excplicitly what is included in the package and what is not included?

From the back of the PHB 4e:

Bring even more to your game table with D&D Insider.
With quick access to exclusive material and digital tools D&DI will help enhance every aspect of your tabletop game. And, with D&DI, you can take your game online, so you can play with your friends anywhere - wherever they live, wherever you go.

Get a 10day free trial at:
dndinsider.com

***********************

Now, that does mention playing online, but thats about it. To truly understand what you might get, you'd have to go to dndinsider.com.

My questions are;
Can you actually get a full 10 day trial right now?
Does the trial give you full access to everything in DnDinsider.com (which free trials usually imply)?

IF someone were to go to the site, click subscribe, they get a page that lists the following items they get:

"With a subscription to D&D Insider, you gain instant access to each month's Dragon and Dungeon magazine content, as well as PDF downloads of the magazine issues at the end of the month. In addition, you gain full use of the D&D Compendium database, as well as three Bonus Tools: the Encounter Builder, Monster Builder, and Ability Generator."

No mention of the future items, so there is no question of what they are getting. If they did research before the purchase, that should be obvious as well.
Cumc: I'd love to hear your exact process in this. There's been a lot of argument about whether or not the website is misleading/confusing as to what you get when you subscribe, but it's all speculative. I'd love to hear a concrete example of a user's experience.
Now I am looking as if I were not a subscriber already, and I don't see a way to get a 10 day free trial, so this is something they should certainly fix. The subscribe page should allow for the trial at that point. To not offer the trial would mean a false advertisement is shown in the back of the PHB, but I'm no lawyer and I'm sure there are ways around it.

However, I honestly don't think they are 'out to screw' anyone for a few dollars. As I said before, 4.95 for the Dragon, Dungeon and full access to the compendium is very reasonable. When the other features become available, I'll see how much they are (assuming they aren't part of the monthly subscription) and decide if they are worth buying.

For now however, I don't feel that I've been 'screwed' and I don't see how anyone else should feel differently.

Am I unhappy the other features aren't there yet, sure, but I'd rather wait and pay more later, than not have them working properly and released early. Then I'd feel slighted.
Cumc: I'd love to hear your exact process in this. There's been a lot of argument about whether or not the website is misleading/confusing as to what you get when you subscribe, but it's all speculative. I'd love to hear a concrete example of a user's experience.

Just go to this link, it shows what you'll get, for how much. If there is something misleading about it, I'd like to know.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/subscription

Simple enough, beyond this link is entering your account and payment info, nothing more. That pretty much sums up the experience.
I am not arguing with you at all. Although in my experience it is beneficial for both the company and the customer to spell out exactly what you are getting and what you are not getting. This stop customer service calls and e-mails (taking those calls is an expense) as well as goes a little ways in customer satisfaction. The DND Insider that spells out what you get and what you do not get would not be very hard to insert over the subscription information. This helps the customer. Remember, every customer is not going to know or research all this. They may just be told that D&D Insider is this stuff and trust the person that told them it.

Basically, it doesn't take that much time to make sure that people know what they are going to get, especially since most of the Insider stuff is not available yet. If it was available, then no big deal, the packages that you display would have what is included.
WOTC Podcast: "The web is a shortcut" "Piracy was a big thing"
Cumc: I'd love to hear your exact process in this. There's been a lot of argument about whether or not the website is misleading/confusing as to what you get when you subscribe, but it's all speculative. I'd love to hear a concrete example of a user's experience.

It seems pretty clear to me.

Note what I have circled in red.

IMAGE(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e192/mbeau/DDISubscriptionstart.jpg)
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
It seems pretty clear to me.

Note what I have circled in red.

I understand, but since some things are not even available yet, it would go far in mentioning that on that page and that you are not getting access to those applications when they become available. Remember, it is all about perception. So what if it changes? Surprise! We just gave you something for free! People LIKE that.
WOTC Podcast: "The web is a shortcut" "Piracy was a big thing"
Sure, when you follow that link from a forum thread discussing whether or not it's clear, you scrutinize the page and it's clear. What I was asking about was his user experience before that, that would lead him to perhaps over look something. For example:

"I bought my players handbook in June, and saw the ad in the back directing me to go to dndinsider.com for a free trial. I checked out the site and was really excited about all the things they were offering. But, after a couple of weeks of checking and it not being ready I forgot about it. Four months later I see from X(buddy, enworld, game store) that's it's ready. So I go to dndinsider.com again and click the subscribe now. Now hearing something about it not all being ready? Hey!"

This is only a hypothetical example, which is why I'd like to hear from the OP, but it doesn't seem impossible. There are probably lots of people who don't follow the boards who don't know anything about the many delays, the tiered pricing scheme, the new bonus tools, or anything.
I understand, but since some things are not even available yet, it would go far in mentioning that on that page and that you are not getting access to those applications when they become available. Remember, it is all about perception. So what if it changes? Surprise! We just gave you something for free! People LIKE that.

I am a bit confused and want to understand the concern.
All the things circled in red are currently available to subscribers.
I am a bit confused and want to understand the concern.
All the things circled in red are currently available to subscribers.

I understand what (I think) they are looking for.

It makes it clear that those are the applications that you are getting, but they would like also to have it indicated:

  • the list of applications that are *not* released yet;
  • That as more applications are released, people may need to upgrade their subscription to get access to those applications.
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
I understand what (I think) they are looking for.

It makes it clear that those are the applications that you are getting, but they would like also to have it indicated:

  • the list of applications that are *not* released yet;
  • That as more applications are released, people may need to upgrade their subscription to get access to those applications.

Yeh, that sounds right. It manages to be clear yet confusing at the same time, mainly because a lot of other sources have previously indicated that you'll be getting the full lineup of applications.
I am a bit confused and want to understand the concern.
All the things circled in red are currently available to subscribers.

Well, here at work, I cannot access your picture, but I think I know what you are talking about. Let me put it this way. (BTW, I don't necessarily think it is a problem, I have customer service background and think things should be spelled out for people):

On the subsciption page where you choose the 3 pricing plans (before going to DR pages). Instead of a paragraph that people have to read, make a bulleted item of what it includes. Also include that these applications (character builder, dungeon builder, etc) are NOT even available yet and your subscription WILL NOT include them when they become available.

I see an issue with nothing on that page says that things are not even available to subscribe to yet and that page should be clear to expect that the other applications are not included in the package.

If Wizards decides to change their mind, the customer gets something for "free", if not, you have stated that they may have to upgrade their package to get new application as they come out.

Again, perception. All the information should be on the subscription page, not in other parts of the site (FAQs, newsletters, etc).

I think people are used to website subscriptions that include the entire website. Anything new, they would, by default, think that they should have access to it. Unless there is a one time fee to purchase a program.
WOTC Podcast: "The web is a shortcut" "Piracy was a big thing"
From the back of the PHB 4e:

Bring even more to your game table with D&D Insider.
With quick access to exclusive material and digital tools D&DI will help enhance every aspect of your tabletop game. And, with D&DI, you can take your game online, so you can play with your friends anywhere - wherever they live, wherever you go.

Get a 10day free trial at:
dndinsider.com

Mine goes on to say "restrictions apply, see site for details." Does yours not?

I wound up getting four or five months worth of free trial, personally.
Mine goes on to say "restrictions apply, see site for details." Does yours not?

I wound up getting four or five months worth of free trial, personally.

and if somebody just discovered D&D and comes to the site as a first time player, that free trail is still valid. All mags before Oct. 1, 2008 are still free and will remain free. The Compedimun ... there is a free trial, just not as complete as if paying (However it was not complete during trail period).

Three components of 8 (depends how you count them) have had their free access, and will continue to have free access for trail.

Not quite what WotC planed, however they planned on an income stream starting months ago.
Plans are always subject to change.
So let me get this straight, you want them to list every digital product you are NOT buying that they plan to have in the future?

That is ridiculous.
fo diggity Twitter: www.twitter.com/fodigg Comic Books You Should Have Read: http://tinyurl.com/ycxe9l7
I am sooo glad that the content is getting by a pay wall. I almost wish the forums were as well.
Well, here at work, I cannot access your picture, but I think I know what you are talking about. Let me put it this way. (BTW, I don't necessarily think it is a problem, I have customer service background and think things should be spelled out for people):

On the subsciption page where you choose the 3 pricing plans (before going to DR pages). Instead of a paragraph that people have to read, make a bulleted item of what it includes. Also include that these applications (character builder, dungeon builder, etc) are NOT even available yet and your subscription WILL NOT include them when they become available.

I see an issue with nothing on that page says that things are not even available to subscribe to yet and that page should be clear to expect that the other applications are not included in the package.

If Wizards decides to change their mind, the customer gets something for "free", if not, you have stated that they may have to upgrade their package to get new application as they come out.

Again, perception. All the information should be on the subscription page, not in other parts of the site (FAQs, newsletters, etc).

I think people are used to website subscriptions that include the entire website. Anything new, they would, by default, think that they should have access to it. Unless there is a one time fee to purchase a program.

Basically you have both. You have a simplified two sentence paragraph that tells you what you get. For more details of what you may or may not get, you can refer to the EULA that comes with it that you supposedly have read when you check the box.

To say "list out all those products they don't get" isn't plausible or necessary. I could see bulleted items IF they offer the other items later as separate options:

Dragon/Dungeon Subscription, plus DnD Compendium only.
Dragon/Dungeon Subscription, plus DnD Compendium and character builder.
etc.

If there were options to actually choose, bulleted points would make sense. But right now, the only 'option' is to choose which payment plan you like, 12, 6 or 1 month recurring.

If anyone goes to a site because they heard about something, but doesn't bother to pay attention to what they are getting, isn't being very smart.

Example. A friend of mine went to Direct 2 Drive to buy Warhammer Online, got through all the steps, saw the price listed in British pounds. He ASSUMED that since Warhammer is a Games Workshop License, that it must be going through them. I'm pretty sure if he had done just a bit more reading, he would have noticed he was buying the European version, which is no good in the US. However he just assumed. Does that make it anybodies fault that he bought it other than his own? No.

My point here is you could add more text to it, saying you get this, plus you don't get these items, but if they aren't taking time to read and understand the limited list that is there, they aren't going to read something longer.

From a customer service standpoint, I see more calls from people wondering why you are listing things you don't get, as opposed to just saying what you do get.

From the EULA:
Show

The Program and its existing, past or to-be-developed Components, and each of them, may be available to you with or without charge, as described in the Payment Terms. Access to certain features, functions, and/or full or partial portions of the Components and other aspects of the Program may require payment. You may also be provided “trial”, “demo”, “beta” or other limited-functionality or limited-access versions of the Program and/or its Components without (and/or for) charge. Converting an account and/or specific Program version or Components, with trial or limited functionality rights to an enhanced account and/or version of the Program or Components, to a paid account or version, or entering billing information during any during your access to the Program during any trial period or other authorized non-charged access to the Program (provided by Wizards) may result in the termination of your free access and/or account to the Program or applicable Component and you may lose access to the associated information or other data.
The problem for me would be that what we active forums people know as DDi is substantially different from what was presented at GenCon 2007 and 2008. It is also different from what is presented in their marketing material. Remember how we all thought the whole thing was going live on release day?

I can't tell you how many casual gamers I told about 4e before it was released. The main selling point was being able to play online, since most of the gamers I know are rather isolated. Based on the marketing material and the books themselves, all of those people would think DDi is much more than what WotC is presenting as DDi today.

Things are not clear enough that all the fancy things advertised for 4e and DDi are NOT present right now. It's painfully clear to those of us that have been here since day one, but not to the average gamer who had gotten interested in 4e from the marketing.
So let me get this straight, you want them to list every digital product you are NOT buying that they plan to have in the future?

That is ridiculous.

No, just the big ones that they pimped all through this year as being available and have listed on the DDI page, not every single one they ever plan to have ever. Not everyone keeps up with everything on the forums.

Yeah, what's there ought to be enough (I think people ought to at least read about what they're slinging their dollars at). But equally, a simple "This subscription package does not include the Game Table, Character Builder, etc, etc. Those applications are forthcoming and will be available under a separate subscription package" would go a long way toward cutting down on this kind of thread.
No, just the big ones that they pimped all through this year as being available and have listed on the DDI page, not every single one they ever plan to have ever. Not everyone keeps up with everything on the forums.

That is still ridiculous. You are buying something. Read what you are buying. It doesn't list the game table so why would you think you were buying it?

They have posted articles describing exactly what you are getting and what is being pushed back. They should not be required to remind you, just in case, that you are not buying everything in their catalog at the point of sale.

Yeah, what's there ought to be enough (I think people ought to at least read about what they're slinging their dollars at). But equally, a simple "This subscription package does not include the Game Table, Character Builder, etc, etc. Those applications are forthcoming and will be available under a separate subscription package" would go a long way toward cutting down on this kind of thread.

That would cause as much confusion as it solves.
fo diggity Twitter: www.twitter.com/fodigg Comic Books You Should Have Read: http://tinyurl.com/ycxe9l7
That is still ridiculous. You are buying something. Read what you are buying. It doesn't list the game table so why would you think you were buying it?

I'm not buying anything, I'm just discussing the issue. Kindly keep the aggression to yourself.

They have posted articles describing exactly what you are getting and what is being pushed back. They should not be required to remind you, just in case, that you are not buying everything in their catalog at the point of sale.

No, they shouldn't, but not everyone manages to read every single thing. I believe I said that. Why yes, yes I did say that.



That would cause as much confusion as it solves.

Maybe. Maybe not. Getting angry about it doesn't help though.
Again, perception. All the information should be on the subscription page, not in other parts of the site (FAQs, newsletters, etc).

Particularly not on the forums.

As far as the 10 day free trial issue. It clearly states a 10 day free trial on my books. This trial does not exist, however nor does the Game Table that's advertises. I can only suppose that the 10 day free trial will occur when the full suite is released.

There should probably be information, prominently visible, stating that as well.
you don't need to really sign up to get the information:



this is everything they have over there.

and its a good value, even at the per month rate a days lunch is more expensive.
No, they shouldn't, but not everyone manages to read every single thing. I believe I said that. Why yes, yes I did say that.
.

so your argument is dumb people should not buy things? not saying your dumb but that does appear to be what you are arguing.
if a person cannot be bothered to read the paragraph about what they are buying that is on the page they buy it that's the buyers fault.
and its a good value, even at the per month rate a days lunch is more expensive.

if it was on paper, i'd probably tell you it's to cheap. but for an e-mag, it's hard on the upper boundary.

btw: comparing to lunch, ultimately says nothing about whether you can or should buy that package or not. if i bought anything that costs but 5 bucks a month, i would be pretty poor. (maybe very happy too, but definitely broke)
Here be dragons: IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cydyvkj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c54g6ac/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/csw6fhj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cbxbgmp/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cz7v5bd/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/ccg9eld/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c8szhnn/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cp68b5u/.gif)
56767308 wrote:
Sadly, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting Next to be a great game. It has to do with wanting Next to determine who won the Edition War. [...] For those of us who just want D&D Next to be a good game, this is getting to be a real drag.
57870548 wrote:
I think I figured it out. This program is a character builder, not a character builder. It teaches patience, empathy, and tolerance. All most excellent character traits.
I think WOTC needs to do is make it clear that if you subscribe now, will this price be the same as they roll out more of the tools to us or will they have to "upgrade" there subscriptions to get the new content. Not betas, but full versions.

This needs to be made clear on the page where you subscribe, and if you need to upgrade, the price of the upgrade. This should have been ironed out before they offered the subscriptions.
Why does everyone go by the 4.95 price as the baseline for how much this subscription costs?

Its $8 for 1 month. Not $5. I don't know why people claim $5, but from where I'm from you look at the monthly fee and tell people that, then say that it costs $60 for a year. That way it IS $5 per month.

$8 per month. $8.

...

$8.

That's always bugged me. Sorry, it just has. Just wanted to toss that out there in the "useless banter" bin.
so your argument is dumb people should not buy things? not saying your dumb but that does appear to be what you are arguing.

Huh? No, that's not what I'm arguing. Where'd you get that from?

What I did was agree that people ought to be reading the particulars of what they're buying, but since there seems to be so much confusion about it, thanks in part to WotC's general lack of specific communication over the past year, WotC might be better off adding a blurb about the high profile apps arriving later and not being part of this web-content subscription.

I never said dumb people shouldn't buy things, and I'd be interested in hearing exactly what part of my posts gave you that impression. I think perhaps you've gotten me confused with someone else.
I'm not everybody, but that's what I go by because that's what it cost me. Why would I pay more than the cheapest rate? Especially when they've promised all access at that rate for the length of my subscription?


Why does everyone go by the 4.95 price as the baseline for how much this subscription costs?

Its $8 for 1 month. Not $5. I don't know why people claim $5, but from where I'm from you look at the monthly fee and tell people that, then say that it costs $60 for a year. That way it IS $5 per month.

$8 per month. $8.

...

$8.

That's always bugged me. Sorry, it just has. Just wanted to toss that out there in the "useless banter" bin.

I'm not everybody, but that's what I go by because that's what it cost me. Why would I pay more than the cheapest rate? Especially when they've promised all access at that rate for the length of my subscription?

Yes and that's the discounted price the actual price is 8 dollars not 5 period if you pay yearly you get a discount. If you went to a store and saw Bread on the Isle with a price tag saying 4 dollars and he sign underneath that says 12 for 12 dollars you wouldn't say hey 1 dollar bread you'd say Why the hell are they trying to charge 4 dollars for bread.
Yes and that's the discounted price the actual price is 8 dollars not 5 period if you pay yearly you get a discount. If you went to a store and saw Bread on the Isle with a price tag saying 4 dollars and he sign underneath that says 12 for 12 dollars you wouldn't say hey 1 dollar bread you'd say Why the hell are they trying to charge 4 dollars for bread.

"It better be good bread!"
That is still ridiculous. You are buying something. Read what you are buying. It doesn't list the game table so why would you think you were buying it?

They have posted articles describing exactly what you are getting and what is being pushed back. They should not be required to remind you, just in case, that you are not buying everything in their catalog at the point of sale.



That would cause as much confusion as it solves.

Oh no I am quite sorry but it is very very much NOT ridiculous. WotC Advertised and Advertised a certain group of products as the central core of D&D Insider for months, in fact it has only been over the last month or two that there were ever any answers forthcoming that those products were so delayed that they couldn't even give a possible release date for them. It is perfectly logical that people buying the three core books and seeing the ads in them would come here expecting to see some spectacular set of tools with at the very least something that would handle character creation, do portraits and allow you to play online ready to go and ready to get a free ten day trial. The only people who know that to not be true are the people who read these forums. You tell me man, you explain to me how some new player who does not frequent these forums could possibly know that D&D Insider isn't up and ready to go by reading what is in the three Core Books. You explain to me how they could possibly know that their is no free ten day trial at this moment, that they cannot play online with friends, or access an application that is anything that even resembles the one pictured in the ad in the back of the Core Books? They can't. Period. Not unless they come here and read these forums and specifically read the D&D Insider section of these forums, and most new players probably won't even know these forums exist until they type the url in their web browser. I am starting to believe that D&D 4e and specifically D&D Insider = the Titanic, no one on the inside knew that it was a sinking ship until it hit the iceberg, but if anyone had been on the outside looking in they could have seen the danger clearly.

Charles
Well I would also like to add that the Picture shown seems to infer that the Other Applications are included in DDInsider.If I was "unaware" of whats going on I would assume that the Character Builder, Character Visualizer, Dungeon Builder, and Game Table were included also
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