Farewell until D&D5

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Hi,

I have enjoyed the D&D4 product roll-out, checking out the new system, metaphorically kicking the tires, playing with the new digital enhancements.

On the whole, I have found the package severely wanting. The quality and treatment of D&Di deserves special notice here, being the decisive consideration in my choice to look away from D&D for my next round of gaming.

Maybe WotC will have its act together for D&D5.

D&Di subscriptions begin tomorrow, which makes this the right time to bow out for a few years.

Bye!


Anyway,

Ken
your point here being what?
The OP is expressing their displeasure in the direction that WotC has taken DDI in the method available to him, by not subscribing and is posting here so that people at WotC know that he is displeased.
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
your point here being what?

This kind of response is indication that there's a larger problem here. People aren't passionate about this game or the DDi product anymore. DDi has dragged on for so long with very little to show for it, it seems like people just don't care anymore. I know if the DDi suite had been released at launch I would have subscribed and started using it, but now, like the OP, I just don't care. I've been gaming for 4 months without it and I see no reason to even try it now.

In any case the point that the OP was really making is that Wizards just lost another customer by:
1) not having the product ready at launch: (reguardless of quotes like "we didn't think anyone would want it that much" or "you can still play DnD, this is just an enhancement" The tools, especially the Virtual table was billed as being the next big thing and an integral part of the D&D experience.)
2) Charging a $8 a month fee for an E-Zine and a compendium just reeks of a corporation not giving a damn about their customers. (The D20 3.5 OGL was in text and available online, it didn't take me much to search through it.)
Let's review...

WotC spends a great deal of time & effort creating all these extra features like the Compendium, the Character Builder, & all the other online tools that are going to be released. They also kept the Dragon & Dungeon magazines going in an online format, rather than just hemorrhaging money like many magazine publishers are doing these days. They could've just as easily have decided to simply let them die, leaving us without the extra goodies, & besides, we got several months worth of content for free while they got all their ducks lined up in a row.

Then they have the audacity to actually expect money back for it by requiring a subscription?

The horror, the horror!!

In other words, don't let the door hit you on the way out. I'm not really some WotC fanboy, but good luck finding another publishing company that offers as much content & overall utility as WotC is bringing to the gaming table (free or otherwise). They've done alright by me, as far as I'm concerned.
i agree that the OP is overreacting. however, charging is not the problem with WOTC, it's how, when and what they charge for. their bonus tools are tame, most of their magazine content (aka dungeon) only usable if you DM and only useful if you never DM anything else than dungeon content or DM three times a week.

about keeping dungeon and dragon alive:
well, they want to charge for it. there's no fame or courtesy in it, it is just part of their business plan, so they keep at it.
them giving freebies was nice - but also expected. it's not like they would get many people to buy something they had never access to. (or a preview).

again, to stress my (and the OPs) standpoint:

charging for stuff is ok. but the way WOTC has handled all this up to this day, is immensely customer-unfriendly.

some people take the easy way out and bail - others phrase their concerns. (some more often than others, obviously)

don't let yourself delude into taking the concerns presented in this board as random whining: it's concern from people who were really interested, and got !"§$%/ off.
Here be dragons: IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cydyvkj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c54g6ac/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/csw6fhj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cbxbgmp/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cz7v5bd/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/ccg9eld/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c8szhnn/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cp68b5u/.gif)
56767308 wrote:
Sadly, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting Next to be a great game. It has to do with wanting Next to determine who won the Edition War. [...] For those of us who just want D&D Next to be a good game, this is getting to be a real drag.
57870548 wrote:
I think I figured it out. This program is a character builder, not a character builder. It teaches patience, empathy, and tolerance. All most excellent character traits.
your point here being what?

I guess people just aren't allowed to express their opinions on the WotC forums anymore.

If you honestly can't get the point then that is just... sad. Hes disappointed and hes disappointed with how this has been handled so much so that he is now a customer that WotC has lost, at least until the next edition.

I hoped that summed it up for you, in the spirit of your original and incredibly rude tone.
I guess people just aren't allowed to express their opinions on the WotC forums anymore.

Please do not say things like that Kyros.

AS VCL, I have expressely stated that people are allowed to (and should) complain/comment about decisions made by WotC that they are unhappy with. Since the announcement that they are going to start charging for the web-content, both WolfStar76 and I have, in different threads, stated that in no uncertain terms.

We (DDI VCL/NG team) expect emotions to run fairly high at the announcement, and are determined to see that people get their say, be it positive or negative.
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
2) Charging a $8 a month fee for an E-Zine and a compendium just reeks of a corporation not giving a damn about their customers. (The D20 3.5 OGL was in text and available online, it didn't take me much to search through it.)

Let's be fair and realistic. The v3.5 d20 SRD (not the d20 OGL, by the way) only covered the core rules, and it didn't even include character generation, character leveling, experience tables, and a handful of monsters. Those only resources had to be created by someone, too, which took time, effort, and money.

The D&D Compendium includes all material published in every book and every article that can be searched and filtered via a database that continuously grows. That's a drastic difference when contrasted with having just the v3.5 SRD that's nothing more than a static web page.

$8 a month for two magazines without ads and a database of ALL official content, not just a stripped down version of the core rules, is a fair price. Going out to lunch one day costs more than that.
I concurr with mudbunny (which I'm sure is a shock to all involved :P ).

Today's going to be an emotionally charged day for lots of people. That's assuming things go smoothly today (and let's face it, few things of this sort go smoothly, and WotC's record isn't the best for new services, even if they DID).

We're going to have people in and out of the forum all day (and probably all week). Some will be confused and looking for answers. Some will be upset to find the content they've gotten accustomed to having for free is now behind a paywall. Some will be content with the system as it is.

Best thing to do today is to simply be respectful of each other - above and beyond your normal tolerance (as high or as low as that may be). If a poster brings to bear a topic that you think is way out-of-line, just ignore it and move on. If you think it's a CoC violation hit that report button and be on your merry way.

That said, everyone has the right to their opinion, even if you, I, or Santa Claus disagree with them. Feel free to debate the opinion, but don't attack the person.

In short - buckle up, it's gonna be a bumpy ride. We're all in it together, however, so we should all look out for each other.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

The D&D Compendium includes all material published in every book and every article that can be searched and filtered via a database that continuously grows. That's a drastic difference when contrasted with having just the v3.5 SRD that's nothing more than a static web page.

just a nitpick: when done properly, you can store all the powers that will be in an upcoming product, already in the database used for the compendium upfront. with an indesign plugin, all the actual data for a power or item can be pulled from the database to be put into layouting the final magazine/book, as well as playtesting, previews, webpages or just quick n dirty sheets for R&D could use it.

it's not the nineties anymore. everything is (and should be) connected.

yes, the content is bigger than the srd. yes, it's new content every month. yes, they should charge for it. sadly also, i believe they are charging to much, and will be charging to much when the final product is out.
Here be dragons: IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cydyvkj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c54g6ac/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/csw6fhj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cbxbgmp/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cz7v5bd/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/ccg9eld/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c8szhnn/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cp68b5u/.gif)
56767308 wrote:
Sadly, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting Next to be a great game. It has to do with wanting Next to determine who won the Edition War. [...] For those of us who just want D&D Next to be a good game, this is getting to be a real drag.
57870548 wrote:
I think I figured it out. This program is a character builder, not a character builder. It teaches patience, empathy, and tolerance. All most excellent character traits.
Please do not say things like that Kyros.

AS VCL, I have expressely stated that people are allowed to (and should) complain/comment about decisions made by WotC that they are unhappy with. Since the announcement that they are going to start charging for the web-content, both WolfStar76 and I have, in different threads, stated that in no uncertain terms.

We (DDI VCL/NG team) expect emotions to run fairly high at the announcement, and are determined to see that people get their say, be it positive or negative.

It seems we have a new cadre of angry forum thugs who are going around to every negative thread and getting their aggression on, but they're not getting official responses like this. Kyros is not the one you should be focusing on.
It seems we have a cadre of newly-registered angry forum thugs who are going around to every negative thread and getting their aggression on, but they're not getting official responses like this. Kyros is not the one you should be focusing on.

I will be doing what I can. And the threads that I have seen, I comment in (if one of my NGs hasn't already done so).
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
just a nitpick: when done properly, you can store all the powers that will be in an upcoming product, already in the database used for the compendium upfront. with an indesign plugin, all the actual data for a power or item can be pulled from the database to be put into layouting the final magazine/book, as well as playtesting, previews, webpages or just quick n dirty sheets for R&D could use it.

it's not the nineties anymore. everything is (and should be) connected.

Preaching to the choir. I once proposed a similar system for entering errata in the database first, tagging the element as errata, and running a script once a month to compile and publish content from the DB that has errata.


yes, the content is bigger than the srd. yes, it's new content every month. yes, they should charge for it. sadly also, i believe they are charging to much, and will be charging to much when the final product is out.

You still haven't qualified this.
I feel your pain Ovarwa. I too have been disappointed with the way things have been handled thus far regarding the vapourware known as D&DI. I feel that the digital enhancements are a great thing to have for your gaming, that is if they are there, and they work.

The back pages of the core rulebooks advertise the D&DI ware but it still hasn't come to fruition and it is just plain frustrating. While true you can play without the enhanced content, I would at least like to have a taste of it, and now the subscriptions kick in?

Again I feel your pain Ovarwa, and if you wish to leave to go to other gaming systems, then I don't think anyone here can begrudge you that. I also have several players in my group that are just about done with 4th edition and want to head back to 3.5 until 4.5 or 5 or whatever.
I have to agree with some of the opinions here. I don't come here too often and today I saw DDI was going on sale so I click the link and 4 out of 7 sections are coming soon.

I think I would call that a beta product. I am not falling for any more marketing gimmicks by wizards like paying for a beta product.

My opinion of wizards right now is at all time low. They are bunch of greedy suits releasing crappy quality products trying to cater the the lowest common denominator to get the goose to lay a golden egg.

$5 is nothing to me. I blow way more going out on the town then the whole year subscription would cost. Since Wizards announced 4.0 you have probably lost a $1500-$2000 customer. 3.5 I bought every book and every miniature(3 cases to get a set at least) wizards released. Since 4.0 was announced I have bought the core 4.0 books and that is all I plan on getting suckered into. The 4.0 system is OK but I don't see many people getting excited about it around here. Two days after I bought the books the ink comes off the pages. Talk about crap. IF DDI was done right you may have had a chance at keeping a little of my business cause I am sure I am not going to buy anymore books or miniatures. Selling a DDI beta is garbage.

later
Switching the order a bit:

The D&D Compendium includes all material published in every book and every article that can be searched and filtered via a database that continuously grows. That's a drastic difference when contrasted with having just the v3.5 SRD that's nothing more than a static web page.

Of course there are things like the hyperlink SRD.

That is secondary though to the primary consideration. All this really is is a functional index. Seriously, if the books had a better index, the Compendium would be redundant. Or a series of indexes covering all material and PDFs allowing quick look up once a page is found.
Turning that into a subscription service is . . .

Let's be fair and realistic. The v3.5 d20 SRD (not the d20 OGL, by the way) only covered the core rules, and it didn't even include character generation, character leveling, experience tables, and a handful of monsters. Those only resources had to be created by someone, too, which took time, effort, and money.

Yes it did.
The money issue is WotC's problem, not mine.
If they cannot manage their products and resources properly to provide both reasonably attractive products for purchase (such as with a complete index then they wind up losing business, and they money they need to pay for all of it.
Conversely if they make products that are attractive, they will get increased business, and they money they want.
If they cannot "afford" to make their products complete, they have bigger problems than what the SRD contained compared to the Compendium.
Of course there are things like the hyperlink SRD.

That is secondary though to the primary consideration. All this really is is a functional index. Seriously, if the books had a better index, the Compendium would be redundant. Or a series of indexes covering all material and PDFs allowing quick look up once a page is found.
Turning that into a subscription service is . . .

The difference between an index for the books and the Compendium is that the books are bulky, cumbersome, and unnecessary. The Compendium not only compiles the information, it also presents it without having to flip through a bunch of pages and a stack of books and magazines.
Please do not say things like that Kyros.

AS VCL, I have expressely stated that people are allowed to (and should) complain/comment about decisions made by WotC that they are unhappy with. Since the announcement that they are going to start charging for the web-content, both WolfStar76 and I have, in different threads, stated that in no uncertain terms.

We (DDI VCL/NG team) expect emotions to run fairly high at the announcement, and are determined to see that people get their say, be it positive or negative.

You do realize the ship sailed on that late last year, right?
And the crypt was sealed forever when the last video interview was posted.

But good luck with it. After this much you time you will need a heck of a lot of luck to salvage this community.
The difference between an index for the books and the Compendium is that the books are bulky, cumbersome, and unnecessary. The Compendium not only compiles the information, it also presents it without having to flip through a bunch of pages and a stack of books and magazines.

Books are unnecessary?
Really?
So then 4E is really a virtual product with the print products a sideline?
Wow! Who would ever have thought something like that?
I mean other than me.
And obviously WotC.
Books are unnecessary?
Really?
So then 4E is really a virtual product with the print products a sideline?
Wow! Who would ever have thought something like that?
I mean other than me.
And obviously WotC.

In your haste to be snarky, you took my meaning out of context.

To some extent, yes, books are unnecessary, but only in the context of having a searchable database that allows one to query for a subset of game elements (e.g. - searching for a list of powers based on level and/or class) across all books and articles published to date with search results including errata. An index is subpar for such a task as it only gives a reference to a book and page number. You still have to rummage through your entire stack of books (if you even have all of the books), flip through the desired pages, and then compare and contrast the options. Then you need to find that file and page number of the articles from Dragon or Dungeon, too.

Contrast that entire process with typing a keyword such as a class name, selecting the category such as powers, sorting or filtering by level, and simply clicking a link to see the full description.

This is not to say that the Compendium replaces the book entirely. There is other material in the book that is worthwhile, and the book will never experience downtime or disconnections like a web site would. My point is that I think an online, updated, and complete database that includes content from the two online magazines is worth a measly $8 a month and is not compareable to the Hypertext d20 SRD. Granted, the latter includes most of the core rules, but it doesn't include anything published since then besides some material from Deities and Demigods, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Unearthed Arcana; even then, that material has some exclusions.

Anyway, I'm not here to defend D&DI or 4e as I don't even play 4e or subscribe to D&DI. I'm only giving a fair opinion of what's worth $8 a month.
I don't ever post on here, ever I only sit and watch, but, honestly I stopped purchasing things after 3.5 came out. I am a second edition loyalist who eventually caved in and filled an entire bookshelf with 3 and 3.5..... only to have 4th come out lightening quick afterwards. I've looked at the product and it seems like a downhill slide. Gaming rules aside the print and the binding of the books themselves seems I dunno, cheap? Especially for the price I saw on them. I don't however give up on D&D for any time length. I simply use the rules that work for my group and myself. D&D isn't about getting shiny enhancements, or having over-priced hardback books. It's about getting the group together and making it memorable. So to the guy (or gal?) who is bowing out I'd say I'll see you in a few years when they iron it out some. Until then happy gaming.
You do realize the ship sailed on that late last year, right?
And the crypt was sealed forever when the last video interview was posted.

But good luck with it. After this much you time you will need a heck of a lot of luck to salvage this community.

I may just be tired, but I really don't see the connection between my reply to Kyros (saying that WotC wants to hear all points of view, positive and negative) and your response to my post.
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
In your haste to be snarky, you took my meaning out of context.

That would actually be you, in your haste to be snarky, saying something you do not mean or do not want to have to defend against the full implications.

To some extent, yes, books are unnecessary, but only in the context of having a searchable database that allows one to query for a subset of game elements (e.g. - searching for a list of powers based on level and/or class) across all books and articles published to date with search results including errata.

Too bad absolutely none of that context was included in your original comment.

Contrast that entire process with typing a keyword such as a class name, selecting the category such as powers, sorting or filtering by level, and simply clicking a link to see the full description.

I am contrasting that.
With the Compendium you absolutely do not need the books.
What part of that are you not trying to make clear?

This is not to say that the Compendium replaces the book entirely. There is other material in the book that is worthwhile, and the book will never experience downtime or disconnections like a web site would.

So if the Compendium does not contain everything the books contain, why can the books not contain a complete index?
Why can a complete index that can function independent of the web not be made available?
Are you now trying to convince me the Compendium is not as good as you tried to suggest it was before?

My point is that I think an online, updated, and complete database that includes content from the two online magazines is worth a measly $8 a month and is not compareable to the Hypertext d20 SRD.

Right, the Hypertext D20 SRD is free, and there are free e-zines and game sites that can provide more content than the two online magazines. That . . . pretty much makes that $8 way overpriced.

Granted, the latter includes most of the core rules, but it doesn't include anything published since then besides some material from Deities and Demigods, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Unearthed Arcana; even then, that material has some exclusions.

Yep.
That is why I tend to just use the WotC indexes. They do not contain spells other than the PHB and SpC, but nothing is perfect.

Anyway, I'm not here to defend D&DI or 4e as I don't even play 4e or subscribe to D&DI. I'm only giving a fair opinion of what's worth $8 a month.

And I am just giving a fair opinion of what is not worth $8 a month.
:surrender I just don't care enough.
I may just be tired, but I really don't see the connection between my reply to Kyros (saying that WotC wants to hear all points of view, positive and negative) and your response to my post.

The time for WotC, or any of its representatives, to make a big deal about caring that everyone be allowed to express their points of view, positive and negative, was this past year when the various 4E supporters were going out of their way to flame people off the forums and WotC representatives of all levels were not just shrugging off complaints about them, but sanctioning and joining in.
Any credibility WotC may have had to be considered sincere about wanting to change direction was thrown away with the contents of the Red Dragon Interview video, and will remain lost until there are very public firings and apologies.
That leaves you with the uneviable task of asking people to volunteer to be the next batch of "trolls" for WotC to empty its bowels upon.
WoTC is certainly welcome to charge whatever they like for material they produce.

Whether someone is willing to pay for that material is another matter.

Speaking for myself, I doubt I will be getting a DDI subscription any time soon.

I am old school. I like silly things like books, magazines and paper. While a search-able database if great for specific reference work, simply sitting on your porch and reading the books or the monthly magazines (now gone) is a pleasure. I prefer hard copy over pdf. Guess I am old fashioned.

The bonus tools seem simplistic at best and appear to be something many of the very bright posters on this board could have knocked off in an evening. Think I will pass.

Now, an advanced character generation would be something I might be interested in, especially if you can add custom feats and races. But that is not out yet, is it. Odd, since I would expect that to be the very first thing everyone would want. Neither is the table top or the visualizer.

So, to me, it doesn't matter that WoTC wants to charge for their work. It only matters if I, as a customer, want to pay the price they want for the services they currently offer. If the character generation was on-line and working to my satisfaction, I might have said yes to DDi. As it stands, I will have to say no.

I don't think I am alone in that.
If the character generation was on-line and working to my satisfaction, I might have said yes to DDi. As it stands, I will have to say no.

I don't think I am alone in that.

#2
Here be dragons: IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cydyvkj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c54g6ac/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/csw6fhj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cbxbgmp/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cz7v5bd/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/ccg9eld/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c8szhnn/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cp68b5u/.gif)
56767308 wrote:
Sadly, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting Next to be a great game. It has to do with wanting Next to determine who won the Edition War. [...] For those of us who just want D&D Next to be a good game, this is getting to be a real drag.
57870548 wrote:
I think I figured it out. This program is a character builder, not a character builder. It teaches patience, empathy, and tolerance. All most excellent character traits.
I hate to say, but im halfway in Ovarwa's boat

Im in 4.0 for one reason. Living Forgotten Realms. and im only in LFR because of Living Greyhawk (the red-headed step child of D&D)

being able to bring a caracter to another table, and interact with other players I didnt know before hand is incredible! (and it not being a creepy fantasy one up contest) , then the LG inter-active's at cons really brought exitement into the game.. (details reserved for other topic)

also it meant knowing the rules and making shure your caracter followed them fairly. (cause table variation on critical aspects of the caracter kills fun faster then 200d6)

on that note,
Ive been exited about the D&Di tools since day one .. a database that promises enteries of core books, suplements and magazine enteries! and a caracter database where its checked against the rules for you (less how did you get that, what page is the ability on arguements)...
-I hope LFR caracters can be looked up so I can checkup on friends I met at cons.
buuuuut it been, what? almost 6 mo.? and thats still not online?
the bonus tools are only usefull for people who dont want to get really farmilair with the rules and havent made thier own tools. the redeeming quality?

the magazines.

although the magazines offers great content that is (somwhat) usefull for open and living games... the pull is the "playtest" classes. to be part of the "beta for the next 30-40$ supplement"

much like the first release core books were the beta for the new "nicely bound and erata updated" core books.-wich I will only buy if the *BAD WORD* ink doesnt smear. (WOTC, you printed cards for a living, GET A NEW PRINTER!)
-and that doesnt even get into the weak wording of abilitys/rules that cause endless arguments (im looking at you longsword wielding swordmage and you ever-changing armor class)

summary: I'll pay for it when the tools/new class playtest is out, but If I keep feeling like Im paying for a beta (and have the new books full of smears to prove it) im jumping ship for the next rpg with players in my area that comes along.

-note: with all the page smearing I would love ebook versions of the books.. but know that not gonna happen with the threat of piracy.
@Samwise: Mudbunny is not WotC. He is a volunteer. I must have missed that last year, myself, because though I have seen many posts in the past few months from people who seem to be specifically looking for a fight (from both sides), I have not seen angry mobs hunting down 3.5 lovers and burning them at the torch. I have also seen WotC employees personally handling our problems (Solice and Randy Buehler, for instance), and I have seen the Mods crack down on offenders as of late (including myself!). I sincerely doubt WotC will do public executions and the like because some people feel miffed, although I do see a problem in that they (as a company) can't seem to bring themselves to look people in the eyes and apologize or admit all of their mistakes. They seem to think doing such a thing would make them suddenly "fallable," when in reality, it would simply make them more human.
Resident Logic Cannon
-note: with all the page smearing I would love ebook versions of the books.. but know that not gonna happen with the threat of piracy.

actually, you can buy the core rulebooks and probably (didn't check back as they were to expensive as a backup to the normal books) the newer releases as well.

my problem with finding those pdfs again, however, is different: i try google, and all i find is pirated versions...
Here be dragons: IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cydyvkj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c54g6ac/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/csw6fhj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cbxbgmp/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cz7v5bd/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/ccg9eld/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c8szhnn/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cp68b5u/.gif)
56767308 wrote:
Sadly, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting Next to be a great game. It has to do with wanting Next to determine who won the Edition War. [...] For those of us who just want D&D Next to be a good game, this is getting to be a real drag.
57870548 wrote:
I think I figured it out. This program is a character builder, not a character builder. It teaches patience, empathy, and tolerance. All most excellent character traits.
actually, you can buy the core rulebooks and probably (didn't check back as they were to expensive as a backup to the normal books) the newer releases as well.

my problem with finding those pdfs again, however, is different: i try google, and all i find is pirated versions...

http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?cPath=4500
@Samwise: Mudbunny is not WotC. He is a volunteer.

I am aware of who Mudbunny is.
I am also aware of what WotC is.
And I am aware of both their past and present actions.
I am aware of who Mudbunny is.
I am also aware of what WotC is.
And I am aware of both their past and present actions.

Oh, my bad! Sorry, I just guess my view of your position was a bit skewed. (hinthint)
Resident Logic Cannon
Let's review...

WotC spends a great deal of time & effort creating all these extra features like the Compendium, the Character Builder, & all the other online tools that are going to be released. They also kept the Dragon & Dungeon magazines going in an online format, rather than just hemorrhaging money like many magazine publishers are doing these days. They could've just as easily have decided to simply let them die, leaving us without the extra goodies, & besides, we got several months worth of content for free while they got all their ducks lined up in a row.

Then they have the audacity to actually expect money back for it by requiring a subscription?

The horror, the horror!!

In other words, don't let the door hit you on the way out. I'm not really some WotC fanboy, but good luck finding another publishing company that offers as much content & overall utility as WotC is bringing to the gaming table (free or otherwise). They've done alright by me, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh crap I dunno Kobold Quarterly maybe??? The REAL successor to the REAL Dragon Magazine, and I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't go monthly before long. Oh also and did I mention you can get it in digital and PRINT form. The alternative for Dungeon would be the Pathfinder Adventure Paths of course witch cost more yes but are of waaaay better quality than dungeon ever was under Wizards direction. The other alternative would have been for them to have left it with Paizo who was doing a great job and had a quality print publication and they could have taken it online as well. I think though thet Wizards knew that if they left the print option no one would have subscribed to the digital mag. Which says something about what the fans at large really want I think. Being rude to an already displeased customer doesn't help the reputation of the product that you are trying to defend at all man.

Charles
Please do not say things like that Kyros.

AS VCL, I have expressely stated that people are allowed to (and should) complain/comment about decisions made by WotC that they are unhappy with. Since the announcement that they are going to start charging for the web-content, both WolfStar76 and I have, in different threads, stated that in no uncertain terms.

We (DDI VCL/NG team) expect emotions to run fairly high at the announcement, and are determined to see that people get their say, be it positive or negative.

Keep talkin' like that, I am startin' ta like you Mr. Mudbunny even if you do have a funny name and a funny avatar... it beats me I guess I have an unpronounceable name and no avatar. ;)

Charles
This kind of response is indication that there's a larger problem here. People aren't passionate about this game or the DDi product anymore. DDi has dragged on for so long with very little to show for it, it seems like people just don't care anymore. I know if the DDi suite had been released at launch I would have subscribed and started using it, but now, like the OP, I just don't care. I've been gaming for 4 months without it and I see no reason to even try it now.

In any case the point that the OP was really making is that Wizards just lost another customer by:
1) not having the product ready at launch: (reguardless of quotes like "we didn't think anyone would want it that much" or "you can still play DnD, this is just an enhancement" The tools, especially the Virtual table was billed as being the next big thing and an integral part of the D&D experience.)
2) Charging a $8 a month fee for an E-Zine and a compendium just reeks of a corporation not giving a damn about their customers. (The D20 3.5 OGL was in text and available online, it didn't take me much to search through it.)

i think its that the people like myself that like it think that we are getting a good price for a couple of magazines and get a few extra things tossed in as well.
The difference between an index for the books and the Compendium is that the books are bulky, cumbersome, and unnecessary. The Compendium not only compiles the information, it also presents it without having to flip through a bunch of pages and a stack of books and magazines.

makes goofing off with my game ideas easier at work then obvious books also :P
As a consumer, I understand your choice.

As a Gamer, I feel your 'pain'.

You have my respect.

Hi,

I have enjoyed the D&D4 product roll-out, checking out the new system, metaphorically kicking the tires, playing with the new digital enhancements.

On the whole, I have found the package severely wanting. The quality and treatment of D&Di deserves special notice here, being the decisive consideration in my choice to look away from D&D for my next round of gaming.

Maybe WotC will have its act together for D&D5.

D&Di subscriptions begin tomorrow, which makes this the right time to bow out for a few years.

Bye!


Anyway,

Ken

I with the op and waiting until the next version of dnd I had high hopes for 4E and DDi both were huge disapointments to me 4E more so then DDi. Maybe in a few years there will be something I like about the next dnd.
Oh crap I dunno Kobold Quarterly maybe??? The REAL successor to the REAL Dragon Magazine, and I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't go monthly before long. Oh also and did I mention you can get it in digital and PRINT form.

Well after all it has been delivered on time

The alternative for Dungeon would be the Pathfinder Adventure Paths

As Much as I like Paizo, I have to disagree here. Pathfinder is not nor has it ever been intended to be a replacement for Dungeon. Dungeon offered more than 1 play option each month..

Personally I went with the Gamemastery Modual Subscription..And will start geting the Pathfinder Society scenarios
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