Podcast Episode 23

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Right now the link is broken for me..

http://webcast2.wizards.com/podcasts_dandd/DnD_Episode23.mp4

Try that one.

Also I love the promotion of licquor in a D&D podcast. Got to love that Crown Royal dice bag just sitting on the table when trying to sell the game to 12 years olds.

Father: Got everything you need to play tonight?
12 Son: Yeah but we need that tea in the purple bag like the D&D podcast!
Father: What tea? What purple bag? What podcast?

~after viewing 8:37~

12 Son: Why are you burning my books in the fireplace!?!?!?
Father: I don't care what those people do you will not play this game again and they should be ashamed of themselves for trying to promote alcohol to children!
Hey now, the Crown Royal dice bag is a staple for every gamer/alcoholic. Even Harry Dresden uses one.

Also, neither link works for me.
I am not shure wheter to admire the Dorkiness or make fun of it...... ok:

"I admire you o great Dorks from Space(tm), give us more podcasts like this one".

And to say something serious, this Podcast is several weeks old, if they had released this sooner it could have workend wonders to get more people interrested in 4E.
Try that one.

Also I love the promotion of licquor in a D&D podcast. Got to love that Crown Royal dice bag just sitting on the table when trying to sell the game to 12 years olds.

Father: Got everything you need to play tonight?
12 Son: Yeah but we need that tea in the purple bag like the D&D podcast!
Father: What tea? What purple bag? What podcast?

~after viewing 8:37~

12 Son: Why are you burning my books in the fireplace!?!?!?
Father: I don't care what those people do you will not play this game again and they should be ashamed of themselves for trying to promote alcohol to children!

So of all the things the kid will pick up on, it's the 'purple bag' that really sticks with him?

Isn't that stretching it just a little lot?
The point is something resembling an alcoholic beverage or its likeness should NOT be in there. Maybe someone has seen it before and read a real one at a store where people play.

Younger children don't really understand always and may ask a parent for some Crown Royal for the bag.

Child asks parent for licquor paraphenalia what is the first reaction going to be?

I could have mentioned how Sara looked unhappy to be there. Dave seemed a bit too hyperactive at times with the flailing arms. How the yellow shirt guy looked like he was biting back saying something because of the dice rolls because it was going to be aired. How the "Beholder's eye" view was poor and made the whole thing shotty. Even how it took more than 38 minutes to get through this combat and they didn't even finish.

So there was a lot more I could have gone on about, but other than poor quality production values, like Gamer_Zer0 videos are at least in focus....the rest is pretty much playstyle of a thrown together group with no continutiy and poor quality gaming system that leads to lengthy boring battles where nobody seemed to know what they were doing.

The mini interviews of the people even seemed scripted or forced.

So as much as I like being able to download this wasted 230 megs rather than being forced to watch it streamed, and even though I dislike the whole concept of vblogging and viral videos it was a good example of what I feared 4th to be. A bloated miniature game.

Leave those silly videos to Gamer_Zer0 if someone MUST do them, or have his crew run the behind the camera bits and post to have something decent looking without the blinking eye crap if more vblogs of sessions are to be posted.

Maybe start where everything else should start for people new to D&D. 1st level. Rather than trying to claim paragon levels are fun and the players all but one looking more frustrated while playing than enjoying it.
Maybe you should stop trying to parent other people's kids.
Aesop had it right 2,500 years ago, "By endeavoring to please everyone, he had pleased no one, and lost his ass in the bargain".
Maybe you should stop trying to parent other people's kids.

This.

Crown royal dice bags have been "the item" since the 80's.

Might as well ban MT. Dew since soft drink consumption can promote diabetes.
Uh.

A bit hypocritical, aren't we?

I remember going to a liqcour store as a kid and asking for a crown royal bag for my dice. I didn't drink, I didn't promote alcohol, I just wanted a cheap dice bag and the liqcour stores have them en masse.

That said , if you're concerned a bag is going to make someone start drinking, I've got news for you. A bag won't do crap compared to your kid's friends.
I'm not much of a poster, but it's posts like this that make me want to say something.

The point is something resembling an alcoholic beverage or its likeness should NOT be in there. Maybe someone has seen it before and read a real one at a store where people play.

Younger children don't really understand always and may ask a parent for some Crown Royal for the bag.

Child asks parent for licquor paraphenalia what is the first reaction going to be?

I find it hard to fathom that a parent would allow their kids to play DnD or any RPG, but be so upset about a "CR bag", which by the way was just a purple bag laying on the table. How anyone would really know what that bag was, unless they drank "CR" or knew someone who did and actually used it as a dice bag is beyond me.
I could have mentioned how Sara looked unhappy to be there. Dave seemed a bit too hyperactive at times with the flailing arms. How the yellow shirt guy looked like he was biting back saying something because of the dice rolls because it was going to be aired. How the "Beholder's eye" view was poor and made the whole thing shotty. Even how it took more than 38 minutes to get through this combat and they didn't even finish.

I guess you have never seen someone get a bit peeved at bad dice rolls?
I guess you have never seen someone be tired from a long week of work?
I guess you have never played with an animated DM before?

So there was a lot more I could have gone on about, but other than poor quality production values, like Gamer_Zer0 videos are at least in focus....the rest is pretty much playstyle of a thrown together group with no continutiy and poor quality gaming system that leads to lengthy boring battles where nobody seemed to know what they were doing.

The mini interviews of the people even seemed scripted or forced.

So as much as I like being able to download this wasted 230 megs rather than being forced to watch it streamed, and even though I dislike the whole concept of vblogging and viral videos it was a good example of what I feared 4th to be. A bloated miniature game.

Leave those silly videos to Gamer_Zer0 if someone MUST do them, or have his crew run the behind the camera bits and post to have something decent looking without the blinking eye crap if more vblogs of sessions are to be posted.

I like that they put up these blogs and podcasts. Shows that they actually like what they do, to me at least
Maybe start where everything else should start for people new to D&D. 1st level. Rather than trying to claim paragon levels are fun and the players all but one looking more frustrated while playing than enjoying it.


I agree that the players really seemed like they didn't have a clue on what their characters could actually do.
My issue was this looked exactly like my current gaming group.
They had no actual plan, no cohesiveness as a group, they were all over the board, the 'roles' weren't there the fighter was trying to be a wizard, the wizard wasn't 'controlling' no leaders, no team play.

This could have been a showcase on what the 'roles' actually do and how the 'roles' work together to make a 'tight-knit' group.

I am making my group watch this video to show them just how bad of an actual group they really are. My group has a real hard time working together as a group, they still want their own theme songs just a blaring whenever their character does something. They go so far as to hide their character sheets from each other, saying that no one needs to know what they can do.
That is another thing shown int his very video. The "roles" that R&D was so apt to create forums for rather than classes or power sources are forced upon people, but we have here the actual designers of portions of the game flat out ignoring them.

I already deleted the video because I couldn't sit through it again, but the Star Wars guy seemed to have some sort of plan, and goes against any sort of role for the party since he wanted to switch sides and turn on the party.

No other class performed as a part of a group even though the new 4th structure focuses on these artificial MMO style roles. The wizar still stod back casting his hand of icy missing. Yellow shirt was useless with his wands and stayed back pretty much doing nothing.

This is why I have problems with new editions in general and the discource they bring to the game. You through many people together that don't always work well as a group as was shown here.

Yeah Sara was probably tired after a week of work, but I don't take that into consideration. I wouldn't be playing if I was that tired, but their jobs seemed to require them to be there, so they were still working. You would want people to look fresh and ready for gaming when making a video.

You would also want to show a group that works well together rather than random people that are together just for the video.

While most groups get forumed at events by just being thrown together, it is the bond of the players and how they work together within the game (not just the battles) that makes the game work. This was just an encounter. A combat encounter not a social encounter, so it only also furthers to strengthen that all there is to the game is the combat.

These videos would go a long way to show what the books don't. Show when giving experience for eating a pickle IS silly and why. Show ways to RP. Show what 4th edition has to offer for those places like Fellcrest of whatever the city in the DMG was named when people aren't fighting.

Show how the economic system works and WHY it works under the core of 4th edition.

Not just a different version of a minis game, but make D&D look like what it is that encompasses those other things.
Overall, I found the video entertaining. I liked Dave's hammy acting and atempts to reverse his wrists ala Roksasha.(sp?)

As for the whole "crown royal" bag issue, it was just a purple bag. There was no logo and prodcut name visible on it. It may have not even been a crown royal bag; I doubt I would have made that connection if it had not been mentioned on the boards. Anyone who thinks this video promotes drinking clearly has way to much freaking time on their hands.

Overall, I found the encounter very instructive, although in many way it was instructive in what not to do. I will admit that some of the players had very bad luck, missing a great deal. But overall their tactics kind of sucked. They just sort of charged and spread out, unfocusing their dammage, and using action points and dailys without much real effect. The warlock was laying down some good damage, but they would have had more success if they had tried to take out only one or two enemies at a time, instead of spreading their damage all around. They needed to be looking for synergies between characters more, making sure the rogue was flanking when he attacked, and using his status effect attacks when there was a good follow up to be had. The wizard/warlord multiclass never really did anything with his warlord abilities, and they really should have gotten the mindflayer to let go go the poor bugger stuck in the tentacles sooner.

Conclusions: Although this was a deliberatly difficult encounter, monsters overall are tougher and more resourceful in 4th ed. You can't just roll in and lay about with your weapons, you have to think and play well. This is my experience with the heroic tier games I have played, and I think this will be even more so in Paragon and Epic level play.
If by entertaining, you mean funny to think they would actually want to air it, then I guess so. Otherwise it just looks like a bad group, and shotty AV production. I have seen better videos from middle schoolers from low income communities about 10 years ago.
the funny thing about the whole video is that in the intro Dave (the DM) made a lot of fuzz about the interactive terrain that could be used in the players and/or the monsters advantage (and that the monsters even had the edge because they knew how it all worked)...

I suspect the moving flames in the blood channels were the interactive terrain but that I neither saw the players nor the DM interact with it in a meaningfull way (apart from moving the flames some squares every other round...)... If somebody could tell me what those flames were doing there...aside from burning... (My players would just run to a channel and cut their wrist just to see what would happen!)

On top of that the fight got abrubtly broken after six rounds... without any valid explanation (they ran away or something, possibly because their workday was over, or they were heading for a real bad TPK). I particullary got enervated by Sara...she seemed like she really didn't want to be there (looked really tired and shouldn't be at the table, as a brand manager you should know that everything you do affects the brand in some way or another...). The other girl was cool... she seemed like the only one that had prepared herself (cut-out powercards (they do exist!) some practiced combo's) but none of the other teamplayers understood that they were in a dungeon, playing as a party. Hell, the starwars guy's brains were sucked out and everybody just watched... .. All the players just lacked the imagination to entertain us... pitty...because the videoformat has a lot of possibilities!

If they do a new movie anytime soon, they should script it better... hell, they could keyfab the whole thing, nobody will see when they fudge the dice... And maybe they should stick with demo's of the heroic tier because I was far from impressed...
The Royal Crown bag doesn't matter a whit. Not at all. Quit arguing about it, you're wrong.

I know you love to whine, but seriously, find something important to whine about, such as them messing up the rules they showed on the screen, rather than, you know, something completely inconsequential kids aren't going to notice, nor are most adults going to notice. And even if they do, no one is going to care. Especially not, you know, USEFUL people. Yeah, some useless people might, but guess what? They weren't going to play D&D anyway and they weren't going to watch the podcast anyway.

No other class performed as a part of a group even though the new 4th structure focuses on these artificial MMO style roles. The wizar still stod back casting his hand of icy missing. Yellow shirt was useless with his wands and stayed back pretty much doing nothing.

You do realize that roles are from D&D in the first place, right? No, of course you don't.

Roles are from D&D. Read that sentence until you understand it.

While most groups get forumed at events by just being thrown together, it is the bond of the players and how they work together within the game (not just the battles) that makes the game work. This was just an encounter. A combat encounter not a social encounter, so it only also furthers to strengthen that all there is to the game is the combat.

The point was to show off the game mechanics. Most game mechanics in every edition of D&D are combat related, and people are excited by combat.

4e is no more combat centric than any other edition of D&D. I know this is hard for you to understand because you don't want to understand it, but it is so.

On top of that the fight got abrubtly broken after six rounds... without any valid explanation (they ran away or something, possibly because their workday was over, or they were heading for a real bad TPK). I particullary got enervated by Sara...she seemed like she really didn't want to be there (looked really tired and shouldn't be at the table, as a brand manager you should know that everything you do affects the brand in some way or another...). The other girl was cool... she seemed like the only one that had prepared herself (cut-out powercards (they do exist!) some practiced combo's) but none of the other teamplayers understood that they were in a dungeon, playing as a party. Hell, the starwars guy's brains were sucked out and everybody just watched... .. All the players just lacked the imagination to entertain us... pitty...because the videoformat has a lot of possibilities!

The fight's abrupt end was rather odd, but I suspect it was for time lengths. And yes, I think they said that the PCs would probably run away.

However, several things you complained about were simply wrong. The brand manager being out of it was quite true, but the guy who was being brainsucked wasn't not being helped by other people - people WERE trying to help him. One guy tried to use Otiluke's Resilient Sphere on the Illithid, and a bunch of them ran over to try and help. They sucked it up though, thanks to their many very poor rolls, but they were trying to get at the mastermind. The problem was that the mastermind was just throwing his thralls in the way, so it was really hard for the PCs to actually do enough damage to the illithid for it to matter. It wasn't so much that they didn't try as that they didn't succeed.

I do agree that the group did seem cobbled together, and it would have probably been more fun to watch a "real encounter" than this set-up one which really wasn't all that awesome because a lot of the players seemed to be a bit out of it. I also agree that the flame channels were something of a wasted effort.
However, several things you complained about were simply wrong. The brand manager being out of it was quite true, but the guy who was being brainsucked wasn't not being helped by other people - people WERE trying to help him. One guy tried to use Otiluke's Resilient Sphere on the Illithid, and a bunch of them ran over to try and help. They sucked it up though, thanks to their many very poor rolls, but they were trying to get at the mastermind. The problem was that the mastermind was just throwing his thralls in the way, so it was really hard for the PCs to actually do enough damage to the illithid for it to matter. It wasn't so much that they didn't try as that they didn't succeed.

Maybe I am a bit to harsh... but as far as the thrall goes, well, that only happend once... Personally I think they could have done a lot more to get the rouge out of the fray... they could have used aid-another actions to help him with a is escape artist crap and so forth... (aid-another is possibly quite weird and dangerous in this situation... but... it would have brought up some more interesting rules/play situations)...
Roles are from D&D. Read that sentence until you understand it.

Actually, they're partially from the wargames from which D&D evolved (magic-user = artillery, fighter = troops, clerics = inspired by medics).

Cheers, LT.
Actually, they're partially from the wargames from which D&D evolved (magic-user = artillery, fighter = troops, clerics = inspired by medics).

Cheers, LT.

Which came from real combat tactics. ;)
I still cant play it either! I dont have the right program to run it they should release in several formats, in the mean time il just have to wait to see if somebody puts it on youtube
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4_Part_14

Find somethere there to help you play it is you insist on seeing it.
The concept of "roles" seems to be a basis for alot of confusion and knee jerk hatred, and admittedly I am as guilty of this as most, before the release of the new system. I believe it was James Wyatt who even said they may have over emphasized the role concept too much before the release. Though it's apparent that the idea of roles was presented badly in a promotional sense, now that I have read the books, I don't think they were designed to lock you into a specific position in your party.

I believe the word ROLE is just used as a term to inform you what that class is capable of doing in a mechanics sense. A defender can take damage, a controller affects large areas, a leader bolsters the team. Nothing more or less, just a qualifier to define and limit capability to keep each class effective and useful in a party. Least that is what is attempting to be done.
Now James is saying the "roles" are more important than some people are thinking they are. Check his blog for the 4e = WOW thread.

It seems they cannot decide how important these roles rally are.

I think in 4th the term ROLE defines that portion of the word ROLEplaying. Not that you are playing a fictional charater, but you re playing a leader, or defender, etc.

That is your role in the game, and that is what you should be doing in the party. If you don't do that you risk the entire party.

I don't call that streamlined, I call it railroading.
Roles are nothing more than sub catergories of the classes themselves. Say your character concept has to do with being able to aid your fellow party members with bolstering effects and some healing ability. Now instead of going though every class looking for that mix of features or powers, you can just look for those that are classified as Leaders and you can choose from them. The only true limitation we currently have is a sheer lack of choice when it comes to controllers, but hopefully soon that will be rectified with some sort of web article or in a future book (though the fact that we have to wait till next year for the arcane supplement doesn't sit too well with me).

Could they have used better terms so there wouldn't be the panic of, "Your telling me how my character should be role-played!"? Absolutely! Since we're stuck with the vocabulary they chose however, just expand your definition of the words and go with the flow.
Try that one.

Also I love the promotion of licquor in a D&D podcast. Got to love that Crown Royal dice bag just sitting on the table when trying to sell the game to 12 years olds.

I was more dismayed that someone turned it over. I bet it was the marketing chick, she didn't look like she was having fun anyway. That pretty much sums up the marketing types. If they have time in front of their computers to think about all the really glowing things they need to say to promote their product they sound like they are really gung-ho for it. Have them actually use the product real time and you see they are really just doing their jobs and the product could be a game, a washing machine, or diapers to them.

I like the podcast in general, but get people who are more animated like the GM was.
I think the DM was a bit over the top. He didn't seem to really impress any of the player with the antics either.

I have seen groups tear into a DM for doing less than imitating a creature that they physically cannot for no reason. There is a point where the silliness should end and seriousness begin.

So even though the humours antics should have made a few people at the table laugh, it still seemed only one person was really into the game for whatever reason. That is when a DM should reevaluate what they are doing and stop trying to entertain like a comedian and start trying to entertain with good gameplay.

Whatever the reason the players didn't seem happy to be there (save for Ms Power Cards, she was an plus for the whole video), and there should have been something done to fix that.
Well, they talk quite a bit in the podcast about how sadistic he is as a DM. The players probably weren't that into the game due to the fact that they were getting their collective butts handed to them. The encounter ended with the party in full retreat, the fighter spent most of the fight having his brain sucked out, and none of the monsters dead. How much fun do you think you would have had?
Also I love the promotion of licquor in a D&D podcast. Got to love that Crown Royal dice bag just sitting on the table when trying to sell the game to 12 years olds.

Bah - you may say you're a gamer for decades in your sig, but any true D&D'er for decades will tell you that it isn't a real D&D game unless there's at least one Crown Royal Dice Bag sitting at the table. :D Those thing were the de facto dice bags for a whole generation of D&D gamers, from about 1980 to about the mid-1990's, because they were both perfectly suited and free!
I don't drink but do have a few of the bags, I just don't like it looking like one in the podcast since there are actual dice bags out there now where back when all you has was a cigar box, or a CR bag. Bag was easier to carry.



Why not a D&D dice bag like in the new dice set? turn it over and cross promotion for products when the label is showing!

Better still have each player open a brand new deluxe dice set to show what comes in them and that fancy leatherette bag with the D&D logo on it. OOOOOH!
Why bother to discuss this with Hellmute, he would find fault with whatever was produced.
He has made it prefectly clear he does not like 4e, yet here he is spending all this time on a forum for a game he does not like.

What a way to spend your time.
Well, they talk quite a bit in the podcast about how sadistic he is as a DM. The players probably weren't that into the game due to the fact that they were getting their collective butts handed to them. The encounter ended with the party in full retreat, the fighter spent most of the fight having his brain sucked out, and none of the monsters dead. How much fun do you think you would have had?

That's just it they started off like they were just told they were going to have to stay late on a Friday and play a demo game, and only near the end did they laugh and look like they were having fun. You would think just the opposite. Starting off having fun, and getting morose as the game turned against them.
The Penny arcade podcasts where twice as informative and ten times as entertaining. I did not notice the bag wasnt paying attention and They didnt do much of anything tbh.
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