15 dollars a month?!

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Why is D&D's online extra content more expensive than a World of Warcraft account? A Player's Handbook without any discount is the same price as WoW WITH the expansion and even that comes with a free month- in addition to the 10 day trial anyone can grab.

This is ridiculous, people who buy the books should have access to this online content FOR FREE.

The Player's handbook should have a code that upgrades your FREE dndi account to player access on the online game table, and the dmg should upgrade you to DM access. That's how it should be, and each book should come with a code to expand your content- not this monthly subscription BS.

If you're going to charge at least make it reasonable for pete's sake, 15 a month is RIDICULOUS even for an MMORPG and this is just a website! I preordered my 4th edition books because I was promised online play, and now I have to pay more to have it? I'm outraged- this is not a way to keep your loyal customers tbh, and definitely not going to persuade more people to purchase your books and software when they can much more easily pirate them.


The good MMOs are $15 per month if you pay by month. I heard it was $10 per month if you pay by year.
I preordered my 4th edition books because I was promised online play, and now I have to pay more to have it?

You seem to imply that someone promised you free online play. Whomever told you that was incorrect. WotC has never promised free online play. I've been keeping up with the 4e news since GenCon last year when it was all announced and the online game table was always described as part of DDi and it was said that DDi was going to be for a fee (but it took awhile for them to decide on that fee amount). Personally, i don't think you should be blaming WotC for your own lack of homework on finding out the facts before you ordered your books.

Relax... besides, it's not like there aren't other online tools out there to let you play. I hear people talking about them on these forums all the time. Personally, i prefer to play face to face whenever possible.

I will agree with you on one thing though. I think the monthly price is about $5 too high. I think it should be $10 per mo./ $6 per mo. if paid yearly. Either that or a la carte. Personally, i want the online-zines, but as a Mac user, i can't use any of the fancy new tools.
www.openrpg.com

Its a free onine gaming table. Grid map, dice roller, etc. And its free. Pair it with a voicechat program (I used Teamspeak) and you are living la vida broka.
It was originally announced that the monthly fee was going to be somewhere BETWEEN an MMO and a Dragon Mag subscription. I feel very decieved, as I was expecting (and excited about) no more than $10 a month. Having a wife that games as well, I will have to pay double the amount of course, and I am HUGELY disappointed hearing that it's $15/month (times two). Also, I'm expecting that each player will need their own PHB too, seeing how things look.

sadly,
-G
Is it even worth it? Has anyone seen these tools in action? Are the online magazines downloadable PDFs or are they held on the site and only accessible as long as WotC decides to keep them available? Do you actually need multiple accounts for a group of players?
Ultimately, are they just telling us its worth $15 is it worth it?
As Grimm pointed out, there was never any deception. That there would be a cost of subscribing to D&D Insider has been known since it was announced.

As far as wanting access for free... I don't get that. You pay for a book, and a book is what you get. If you want the add-ons and digital tools and so forth, then you pay for those. It's like buying a car -- they don't give you the gas for free.

And 15 bucks a month? Who would complain about such a trivial amount of money? I can barely buy lunch for that. Not only that, but it's less than subscribing to the print versions of Dragon and Dungeon magazines used to be, except that you get both magazine, plus rulebook add-ons, plus digital tools, online gaming table, etc etc...
And 15 bucks a month? Who would complain about such a trivial amount of money? I can barely buy lunch for that. Not only that, but it's less than subscribing to the print versions of Dragon and Dungeon magazines used to be, except that you get both magazine, plus rulebook add-ons, plus digital tools, online gaming table, etc etc...

I find these thoughts laughable. First, it assumes that $15/ month is trivial which for many people it is NOT. I play with several people who balk at the idea of spending $30 on books let alone $15/ month.

Second it assumes that just because you can blow $15 on lunch that you should be joyful for handing it over. Some of us (ME) like to get value for their money. I don't see the value here. For $15/month I can buy exactly the content I want, not whatever random content WotC decides to stuff into the mags. Or I can buy a Pizza for my game group every month which is much more likely to get used than the 3d character "visualizer" which will probably get used for 15 minutes then forgotten.

Finally, if your maths are broken that's $180/ year which IS a significant amount of money. Some of us enjoy saving a bit here and there and dropping an extra $15/ mo on whatever tickles our fancy burns through a lot of cash in a hurry.
THere are 3 paying options 10 a month /year 13 / 3 months 15/ 1 month. And if your going 10 a month you'll paying less than what MOST mmorpgs monthly fees are.
First, it assumes that $15/ month is trivial which for many people it is NOT. I play with several people who balk at the idea of spending $30 on books let alone $15/ month.

Second it assumes that just because you can blow $15 on lunch that you should be joyful for handing it over. Some of us (ME) like to get value for their money. I don't see the value here.

There's not much point in debating whether the $15/month, or $180/year, is a lot of money or not. I don't know anyone over the age of 16 who would think that's a lot of money, but if you do then you have my sympathy.

The larger issue, as you point out, is whether or not you're getting value for the money. But again, there's not much point in debating that either, since none of us has used DDI yet. Let's both subscribe for a month when it becomes available and then we can decide if the $15 was worth it.
THere are 3 paying options 10 a month /year 13 / 3 months 15/ 1 month. And if your going 10 a month you'll paying less than what MOST mmorpgs monthly fees are.

You're also getting less than what ALL mmorpgs are, so of course you should be paying less
There's not much point in debating whether the $15/month, or $180/year, is a lot of money or not. I don't know anyone over the age of 16 who would think that's a lot of money, but if you do then you have my sympathy.

And people wonder why our society is living paycheck to paycheck. No, $15 isn't a "lot of money" to me, but I also don't drop cash on something just because it's a 'trivial' amount.

The larger issue, as you point out, is whether or not you're getting value for the money. But again, there's not much point in debating that either, since none of us has used DDI yet. Let's both subscribe for a month when it becomes available and then we can decide if the $15 was worth it.

Here's the thing, I don't need to see the tools to know I won't use them. I don't need a digital table top, I game with my friends. I couldn't care less about a 3d representation of my character that looks like a refuge from WoW and for far less than $180 I can pay an artist over the internet to make me a much nicer looking drawing of my character.

I've never subscribed to either Dungeon or Dragon magazine and while I might enjoy an occasional article from them I can get much of that same sort of gratification from other (free) sources on the internet. Incidentally most physical magazine subscriptions are $15-30/ YEAR, and any physical copies of these mags will be additional expenses so I can't even read them on the can if I was interested.

The tools I am interested in are replacing tools which I currently have access to for free which is what is really frustrating.

The character generator and online rules access I currently use PCGen and d20SRD. I am quite happy with both of these tools and wouldn't change them even if the cost difference were free. Unfortunately Wizards closed their ruleset so the only way d20SRD will be replaced is by paying $15/ month which sucks (But that's another topic).

From what I've heard PCGen is on-course to support 4e by the end of the year. Heck, unless the yet-to-be-seen GSL license prohibits it PCGen may very well beat the DDi tools to market.

So WTF am I really getting for $15/ month?? Online rules, maybe a character generator, and some occasional random content from Dungeon or Dragon that might prove interesting.

No thanks, I can think of a lot better things to do with the money.
There's not much point in debating whether the $15/month, or $180/year, is a lot of money or not. I don't know anyone over the age of 16 who would think that's a lot of money, but if you do then you have my sympathy.

Its depend on your revenue...if you have kids and if you think that 15$ a month for a service of that kind is too much...you are right. I think that 15$ a month is too much compared to a MMORPG. Because in a MMO, you can play with 15$ a month. But with DnD Online table, you need players and a DM...so you pay for...server occupation and a software...why just dont sell the software and ask people to create their own local server...ok Im studying in Multimedia...so its sounds simple to me..but it is..for real.
And 15 bucks a month? Who would complain about such a trivial amount of money?

People with a small disposable income? Already D&D has cut into my comic habit quite a bit (and I was only spending $60 on comics a month).

I can barely buy lunch for that.

Clearly you have more expensive tastes then I. I can go out for dinner and get it for less then $10.
A big question for most people's spending on anything is (regardless of how much money one has) is "can I get something better for the same amount of money that I am spending on x?".

In this case, that question translates to: can I get a better roleplaying product that fills the same (or a very similar) niche for $15 per month that is better than insider?




The answer is: of course!!!

**For the MMO crowd, WoW is a much better value.

**For the strictly D&D crowd who wants to play online...there's that free online roleplaying game.

**For the strictly D&D crowd who wants to read pdf's there's a ton on drivethrurpg.com for way cheaper (and those are already available, not the junk we've been getting from WoTC).

**For the strictly D&D crowd who wants to read real life, actual paper, books, you could buy a book every other month for that cost...and better than that if you go amazon or get it used.... I mean $180 per year? Seriously, go on amazon right now and look for new or used books...see what you can buy... (Yes I'm aware that RIGHT NOW there aren't 4e books apart from WotC, but that will very quickly change...and also RIGHT NOW insider is remaining free.) Even new, most books are $30...so that is half of a full book per month.

I can certainly find books that cost $15 each (including shipping) that are worth reading, having, playing, overall enjoying...




So, again, the question becomes one of value...for me, there is no way I'd rather spend $15 to get:
1. Something I can get for free elsewhere.
2. Web based (non pdf...as they haven't compiled anything but the first
mag) low amount of content adventures and articles.

I'd rather get an additional book every single month with that money.
There's not much point in debating whether the $15/month, or $180/year, is a lot of money or not. I don't know anyone over the age of 16 who would think that's a lot of money, but if you do then you have my sympathy.

It's not a lot of money on its own.. but it is a lot of money for what you're getting. It's the relative value of things. For me, $15 a month COULD go to DDI, or it COULD go to one of my girls for a toy they want, or a CD, a few in print magazines per month.

The larger issue, as you point out, is whether or not you're getting value for the money. But again, there's not much point in debating that either, since none of us has used DDI yet. Let's both subscribe for a month when it becomes available and then we can decide if the $15 was worth it.

And that's mindbogglingly stupid. You're seriously demanding that people pay money first to see if it was worth paying money for in the first place?
LMAO
15 bucks is ridiculous !! :hoppingma

There´s only one MMORPG that´s 15$ a month and thats AoC
ALL others charge 10 to 0.

And people this is NO game !!
It´s a tool, a bunch of info and maybe somehow useful.

BUT NOT WORTH FIVE DOLLARS A MONTH (DEFINITELY NOT 15 )
Even if WotC would create the PERFECT toolset (which i strongly doubt) it´s not worth a monthly fee.
I´d spend some money for a real good tool once.

Applause WotC you once more showed you only care about $$$

The only other thing left to say (and thats a pure personal impression) 3.5 worked, and 4.0 is for sissies

So bye bye and NOT BUY BUY
I just checked amazon.com under magazine subscriptions.

So if we assume that insider (which doesn't yet exist) is about as useful (perhaps a bit "shinier") as the free programs out there, then we're just paying WotC for magazines.



If this is the case, lets look at what we can get at amazon for subscription price. (Now I want to compare apples to apples, but I can't since WotC is putting out crappy pdfs and not print...but I can at least do subscription price to subscription price...so WotC subscription price is $120 per year for the two mags, or $60 per year for each of the pdf mags or $5 per mag).

Looking at the most popular print magazines for one year we get:
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Smithsonian - 12 issues / 12 months $12.00 ($1.00/issue)
Newsweek - 53 issues / 12 months $20.00 ($0.38/issue)
Wired - 12 issues / 12 months $10.00 ($0.83/issue)
Popular Science - 12 issues / 12 months $12.00 ($1.00/issue)
O, The Oprah Magazine (1-year) - 12 issues / 12 months$18.00 ($1.50/issue)
The New Yorker - 47 issues / 12 months $39.95 ($0.85/issue)
Playboy - 12 issues / 12 months $15.96 ($1.33/issue)
Us Weekly - 52 issues / 12 months $51.48 ($0.99/issue)
Maxim - 12 issues / 12 months $12.00 ($1.00/issue)
Sports Illustrated Kids (1-year) - 12 issues / 12 months $19.95 ($1.66/issue)
Vanity Fair - 12 issues / 12 months $15.00 ($1.25/issue)
If you drop the three most expensive (The New Yorker, US Weekly, and Sports Illustrated Kids) you could have: Smithsonian, Newsweek, Wired, Popular Science, O, Playboy, Maxim, and Vanity Fair for a total of $114.96 delivered to your door, in print. Yes, act now, and you'll get (for the mere cost of a subscription to insider) subscriptions of 8 of the 11 most popular magazines, in print, delivered to your door. That's not the 24 supposed issues of dungeon and dragon. That is 137 magazine issues!!!
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(I also feel compelled to point out that two of the dropped magazines, both The New Yorker and US weekly, are basically weekly magazines, with a subscription equalling 47 and 52 issues, respectively) Including all of these magazines and averaging the subscription cost per issue yields $0.91 per issue. That is less than 20% of the cost of an electronic issue of Dungeon or Dragon.

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BUT WAIT! Someone might say. Dungeon and Dragon are niche products. Don't compare them to the most popular magazines in the country!

Ok, how about comparing them to the entertianment---> puzzles and games section?

Again, sorted by best selling:
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Family Handyman - 10 issues / 12 months $19.97 ($2.00/issue)
Game Informer - 12 issues / 12 months $19.98 ($1.67/issue)
PlayStation: The Official Magazine - 12 issues / 12 months $18.00 ($1.50/issue)
The Official Xbox Magazine - 12 issues / 12 months $24.95 ($2.08/issue)
Fine Woodworking - 7 issues / 12 months $34.95 ($4.99/issue)
Games - 10 issues / 12 months $30.00 ($3.00/issue)
Electronic Gaming Monthly - 12 issues / 12 months $19.97 ($1.66/issue)
Jumbo Ring-a-Word - 6 issues / 12 months $9.80 ($1.63/issue)
Card Player - 26 issues / 12 months $25.95 ($1.00/issue)
Play - 12 issues / 12 months $17.95 ($1.50/issue)
Official's Logic Problems - 6 issues / 12 months $19.40 ($3.23/issue)
World of Puzzles - 6 issues / 12 months $19.40 ($3.23/issue)

Including all of these, the average cost per issue is $1.99. That is still less than half of the cost of a pdf issue of Dungeon or Dragon.

For the "niche" products, I had to drop 6 magazines (half) to get down below the total cost of both dungeon and dragon. So for $105.67 (actuall $14.33 below cost) you could get Family Handyman, Game Informer, Playstation:The official Magazine, Electronic Gaming Monthly, Jumbo ring a word, and Play. That is a total of 64 print issues of 6 magazines compared to 24 PDF issues (and for less money).

And Finally, if we really want to compare Dungeons to e-Dungeons and Dragons to e-Dragons:
The cost of the print magazines when Paizo sold them for subscription was $3.25 per magazine. For both was $6.50. So now we have to pay $3.50 more (remember the cost per mag was only $3.25) to get them than we used to, and in PDF????

Here is an old post on this same topic:
$10-15 per month is a wildly absurd amount.

And that's mindbogglingly stupid. You're seriously demanding that people pay money first to see if it was worth paying money for in the first place?

Whoa -- mindbogglingly? Demanding? Let's reign ourselves in a bit here. I demanded that no one do anything. I suggested that people try the product before they slam it. Would you go on a message board talking about how terrible a restaurant is that you've never eaten at? How awful a book is that you've never read? How ghastly a movie was that you didn't watch?

Buy it or don't buy it, but please hold off on the rhetoric if you think it's wrong for someone to suggest being open-minded.
I would go on a message board and complain about a restaurant that handed out free samples that were a "preview" of their restaurant and those free samples were:
1. of poor quality
2. promised and then never supplied
3. supplied months late
4. promised in larger volumes than were supplied.

"Here's that hamburger sample I promised you two months ago. Yeah, it's raw, and it's moldy, but come on inside and pay for the real thing. IT'S GONNA BE GREAT!!!!"

Seriously. We've been previewing this thing since October.

Isn't 9 months enough of a preview to begin to make judgement calls?



And preview or no, I believe my prior post points out that the price is extreme even if the magazines were good enough to be the tops in the country. (but they're no where near that).
And 15 bucks a month? Who would complain about such a trivial amount of money? I can barely buy lunch for that. Not only that, but it's less than subscribing to the print versions of Dragon and Dungeon magazines used to be, except that you get both magazine, plus rulebook add-ons, plus digital tools, online gaming table, etc etc...

One year subscriptions to the magazines were $3.25 each per month. That's $6.50 per month for both. WAY less than $15 per month. Not even close.

Also, I only pay $6-$10 for lunch. Paying $15 for lunch would be enough to convince me to bring a bag lunch to work. I'm glad I don't live where you do.
Would you go on a message board talking about how terrible a restaurant is that you've never eaten at? How awful a book is that you've never read?

Let's say they have someone up front giving free appetizers, and you don't like them. THEN the restaraunt, serving gourmet hamburgers, has listed menu prices of $30 a plate. I would complain then.

How ghastly a movie was that you didn't watch?

Again, let's say the trailers were awful, and that the local Cinemark has to charge $40 a ticket to pay for the high cost of the movie. Yep, I would complain and still not see it.

Buy it or don't buy it, but please hold off on the rhetoric if you think it's wrong for someone to suggest being open-minded.

I did approach this with an open mind. You, however, have not. You're blindly willing to give WotC the benefit of the doubt, and your cash, despite anything and everything you've heard, and are unwilling to accept that someone may have a legitimate complaint.
There´s only one MMORPG that´s 15$ a month and thats AoC
ALL others charge 10 to 0.

Vanguard, DDO, Lotro, WoW, and EQ2 are all $14.99 a month if you pay monthly. Eve is $14.95.
And Flyff is free.


You just have the option to pay extra for a la carte items that you want to upgrade your play experience.

This sounds a lot like insider, where you have to pay extra for the virtual minis you want... and not at all like most of the other mmorpgs where you get the whole experience for one cost.

Well, it's like insider in that you pay for the extras, but it's not like it in that it is free instead of $15 per month.
You make me sound cheap...

Seriously, though, am I getting as much game for DDI as I am with WoW? From what we've seen of DDI thus far (and it's been nearly a year now), the answer is an unequivocal 'no'.
Well, WoW sucks so that's not a good comparison.

I guess it depends on how much you end up using DDI. If you use it to game remotely with people three nights a week, for example, then I think you're getting some good game time out of it. If you rarely use it, the no.
I'm not outraged, but I am disappointed. I run a game using a virtual gaming table with friends from college. We have gone different paths financially, and while $15 a month isn't a lot to me, I don't feel comfortable asking the same of some of my friends. I don't think that WOTC settled on $15 as a fair value, I think the number is based on what they feel the market can bear.

As a value proposition, I just don't see it. My understanding is that the product consists of:
1) an electronic version of dragon magazine ($3.50 in print- should be cheaper without distribution and production costs)
2) an electronic version of dungeon magazine (see above)
3) A character visualizer (how much would you pay for this stand-alone? $20?)
4) A character sheet utility (Hero-Lab is a one-time cost of $29)
5) an virtual table (I use battlegrounds, one time cost to players of $15)

One-time costs are immensely preferable to recurring ones. The competition to D&D insider software is cheap- about $64 dollars outlined above. If you remove the value of the magazines ($7 a month)- after 8 months of subscription, you could own a competitive series of products.

It's true that a game like world of warcraft has a similar subscription cost, but I haven't seen anything to convince me that writing/maintaining/serving D&D insider requires anything approaching the amount of resources a game like world of warcraft does. It's like comparing the costs of a bicycle to a motorcycle.

At the price D&D Insider is charging, that software will need to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the current in-market alternatives. After 8 months, I could have purchased competitive software and the old magazines off the rack with the same financial outlay. Every month after that, I am effectively handing over $8 for software development (and again- the competitors are priced in the $20 range).

Which brings me to the question- why do we pay $15 a month for the months in which D&D insider DOESN'T include this software? At that point, aren't we just paying $15 for electronic versions of magazines we used to buy at the newsstand for $7?

To be fair- we haven't seen what D&D insider will bring. It's possible that this will be the most amazing battlemat ever, and that it will blow all competitors out of the water. I've seen powerpoint presentations at conventions that make the assertion that you are getting a LOT for your $15, but I haven't come to the same conclusion yet. I hope they do it! If D&D insider is actually that much better than what is currently in-market, then life will be extremely good for virtual tabletop users (who are already pretty happy).

I believe WOTC are good people that are going to really work to try to make D&D insider worth it. I just want to be clear about how much work I expect that to take.
Let's say they have someone up front giving free appetizers, and you don't like them. THEN the restaraunt, serving gourmet hamburgers, has listed menu prices of $30 a plate. I would complain then.

Again, let's say the trailers were awful, and that the local Cinemark has to charge $40 a ticket to pay for the high cost of the movie. Yep, I would complain and still not see it.

We're just arguing about mind set now, and maybe there's no point to that, but I still disagree with you.

You're saying that you'd complain about the restaurant because you didn't like the free sample, and you'd complain about the movie because you didn't like the free trailer? Why? Isn't your mind already made up?

After you've already decided you don't like the product anyway, you still think it's important to complain about the price? If you aren't buying it anyway, what does it matter if it's $15 or $15,000? If it was free, would you take it because it's free, even though you've already decided you don't like it?

I did approach this with an open mind. You, however, have not. You're blindly willing to give WotC the benefit of the doubt, and your cash, despite anything and everything you've heard, and are unwilling to accept that someone may have a legitimate complaint.

I'm not sure you understand what being open-minded is. If you're willing to give benefit of the doubt, you're open-minded. If you've made up your mind without seeing the finished product, you're not open-minded.

And I think I'm open-minded enough to listen to legitimate complaints. I haven't seen any so far in this thread. I have some of my own. I don't think the quality of Dungeon and Dragon magazines is yet equal to what Paizo was publishing. I think the 3D character thing is unneccesary. I'd like to see some real improvements and I'd like to see some impressive content for me to decide $15 a month is worth it. But, I'm open-minded enough to give it a chance before I dismiss it.
THere are 3 paying options 10 a month /year 13 / 3 months 15/ 1 month. And if your going 10 a month you'll paying less than what MOST mmorpgs monthly fees are.

This entire MMORPG statement assumes that EVERYONE who play D&D plays some kind of MMO, and, guess what? Thats not true
There's not much point in debating whether the $15/month, or $180/year, is a lot of money or not. I don't know anyone over the age of 16 who would think that's a lot of money, but if you do then you have my sympathy.

Nice to know you are rolling in cash. I know ALOT of people over 16 (most in their 30s), who consider it a significant amount of money to waste on something they won;t be using every day, ore even every other day. Especially when you figure mortgages, car payments, bills, food, and other expenses into life.

And for the MMO comparisons, there's a difference. Most people who play MMO's do so at least every other day, if not daily. Honestly, are any of you going to use DDI daily? Maybe 1 or 2 times a week, but not like you do an MMO
I agree that $15 is way too much. Most online games are done weekly, to give the DM time to plan things for the next session. That's four to five times a month, much less than an MMORPG.
Less than an MMO, but you're getting more entertainment time than you would from, say, going to a movie once a month, which if you buy drinks etc. could run you closer to $20.
If you think about it from a larger, industry-wide standpoint it makes sense. Piracy of gaming materials is easy; I have friends who could get me PDF's of more than half the D&D books in 3rd edition (More if they really tried), and there isn't really any practical way to stop it. If Dragon Magazine moves to online, then it makes sense to take a similar approach to other publications.
If they can't really stop piracy, then limiting themselves to online subscriptions for a fee would limit their loses. WOTC wouldn't have to go through the expense of publishing and distributing as many hard-cover books. If we're going to steal the content anyway, making much of it digital means they lose less money.

Don't sweat it, just sign up once every three months, download all you can, and let your subscription run out. Or get your players to alternate subscriptions on a rotating schedule.
The good MMOs are $15 per month if you pay by month. I heard it was $10 per month if you pay by year.

And why is it justifiable that the DDI costs as much as an MMO?
And why is it justifiable that the DDI costs as much as an MMO?

People just tend to make that assumption. I'm not sure it's really relevant. Look at it in terms of any other form of entertainment.

If you play one game a week with DDI, say for four hours, you're getting entertainment at about 94 cents per hour.

Movie? Anywhere from $4 to $20 per hour depending on what you buy in addition to the ticket and how long the movie is, etc.

Cable TV? Depending on how much you watch you may get more than DDI for your entertainment dollar, you may get less.

But you're under a buck an hour in DDI in all likelihood if you play at least once a week. That's not bad. And in addition you're getting other content, etc. If you don't play with it that often, then maybe it isn't for you.
Piracy of gaming materials is easy; I have friends who could get me PDF's of more than half the D&D books in 3rd edition (More if they really tried)

The whole 4th ed core has been available for a couple of weeks at the least. That doesn't change the fact that the content included in DDi isn't worth 15 a month. I'm not claiming that 15 or even 10 a month is that much money, but I am saying that there's no justifiable reason for the cost. As everyone in this thread loves to compare MMO's, There is no way the tools they've discussed justify the monthly cost. They are all small scale relatively easy projects with a marginal upfront development cost and almost no maintenance associated with them for their lifetime. A MMORPG has a huge manpower outlay for years of development, and massive support staff for both software and hardware, huge server farms and bandwidth costs, as well as a much higher usage uptime by endusers (and hey WoW works on mac's too :P). For what we are getting the character creator should probably be 9-10 bucks one time, access to the online books/rules should be unlockable with a purchase of the core books or a a reduced fee (perhaps 20-25) the GameTable should likely run 20-30 bucks.

Looking at the offer they are making I can't help but feel like they saw what MMO's where doing and wanted in on it, without realizing the differences in content offering, it's a slap in the face to charge monthly for a flat app of this size and complexity.
You're saying that you'd complain about the restaurant because you didn't like the free sample, and you'd complain about the movie because you didn't like the free trailer? Why? Isn't your mind already made up?

Yes it is, which is why I'm complaining and warning others that it's not worth the price of admission. Is this something you're not getting here? Or are we only allowed to speak when we like something?

I'm not sure you understand what being open-minded is. If you're willing to give benefit of the doubt, you're open-minded. If you've made up your mind without seeing the finished product, you're not open-minded.

Do you not understand how barter works? They have to sell me the item and convince me to part with my money. If they fail in the first part, either because what I see of the product is bad, or the price is too high, or both, then they don't get my money.

How is this lost on you?

I don't have to be open-minded. I'm a customer. It's my money. They have to convince me to part with it. That's their job. It's outright stupid for me to give them money in the first place and see if it was worth the price I shelled out.
Do you not understand how barter works? They have to sell me the item and convince me to part with my money. If they fail in the first part, either because what I see of the product is bad, or the price is too high, or both, then they don't get my money.

How is this lost on you?

I don't have to be open-minded. I'm a customer. It's my money. They have to convince me to part with it. That's their job. It's outright stupid for me to give them money in the first place and see if it was worth the price I shelled out.

Actually, I've completely lost the train of what your argument is. I've certainly never claimed that you aren't a customer or that your money isn't your money. This thread was about the cost of the product, but now you're talking about the quality of the product. You also started off claiming to be open minded, and now you're saying that you aren't.

My argument is this: DDI, priced at $15/month, may or may not be worth that cost. The price seems reasonable for what DDI is advertised to offer. If I can spend $15 for a month's access to determine if it's worth signing up for a full year, then yah it's worth it.

I can actually think of many, many examples of situations where you pay first and decide afterwards if it was worth it. We can return to the example of the movie. You see a trailer that makes the movie look terrible, and you decide not to go see it. You then log onto the studio's web site and start railing about the cost of tickets, the quality of the movie, et cetera. Someone points out that you haven't actually seen the movie, and you proceed to tear a strip off them for suggesting that you should try it before you tell everyone how awful it is.

My suggestion is, if you've decided that DDI is not for you, then don't buy it. But please don't pretend that you're doing everyone a favour by "warning" us all about how terrible a product is that you have never used.
People just tend to make that assumption. I'm not sure it's really relevant. Look at it in terms of any other form of entertainment.

If you play one game a week with DDI, say for four hours, you're getting entertainment at about 94 cents per hour.

Movie? Anywhere from $4 to $20 per hour depending on what you buy in addition to the ticket and how long the movie is, etc.

Cable TV? Depending on how much you watch you may get more than DDI for your entertainment dollar, you may get less.

But you're under a buck an hour in DDI in all likelihood if you play at least once a week. That's not bad. And in addition you're getting other content, etc. If you don't play with it that often, then maybe it isn't for you.

Wow, and that justifies a cost how?

If that argument held any water whatsoever, you could argue that an IM service you're playing D&D over online should cost 20 bucks a month.

A MMORPG has a huge manpower outlay for years of development, and massive support staff for both software and hardware, huge server farms and bandwidth costs, as well as a much higher usage uptime by endusers (and hey WoW works on mac's too :P).

This is an example of a valid justification for such a subscription cost. See the difference?
Wow, and that justifies a cost how?

If that argument held any water whatsoever, you could argue that an IM service you're playing D&D over online should cost 20 bucks a month.

You obviously don't understand the argument, and based on what I've seen here you don't care to understand it.

If you can't figure out the difference in an IM application for yourself, then no one can help you.
You obviously don't understand the argument

Yay, look, unjustified, wholly unsupported flaming. I understand your argument completely. The entirety of your argument is cost relative to entertainment time gained. That argument has never held water as a justification for cost in the history of economics.

If you can't figure out the difference in an IM application for yourself, then no one can help you.

And no defense for your statements! Just another argumentum ad hominem.

Yeah, it is the same, *in the context of your argument,* because it can be measured in the amount of entertainment time I get out of it for the price, which was the *entirety* of the argument you presented.