Dragon Magazine Question

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I have to say I really don't like reading a non printed issue in the first place. Having issue #360 in a pdf was better but still I am not sure about paying $15 for this and all that comes with it each month.

So lets look at #361, #362, and #363 I guess it was to hard to put them in a completed issue pdf? Is this how you going to sell the Magazine for those that have the DDI?

If that is the way just have articles and leave it then you made my decision on paying $15 a month. I just won't do it. The other items aren't out for show yet and speaking how you did 1/2 of what you already shown us I would have to say I already can conclude on the 1/2 you didn't.

Are we ever going to get completed pdfs of 361, 362, 363, and future issues?

Thanks for saving me $15 a month WoTC.
I kind of think they don't want to give us free completed mags. I hope this is not true because I am using this as a major factor of if I will subscribe or not. I want to see how the completed PDFs will be plus with the inability to deliver makes me quite uncertain. I hope they start delivering befor they expect money.
Totally agree...

I don't see anything right now that warrants giving them anything more than what I do for the real printed hard copy.
I don't understand why you'd give them more than you would for the printed copy regardless.

Even if they have the same amount of content, with a pdf you're restricted to reading it on your PC, you can't quickly thumb through pages as easily as you can with a print magazine, you can't lend it to friends to glance over...it's horribly limiting compared to an actual magazine.

There's no way I'm willing to pay even $5/month each for Dragon and Dungeon. Combined with how limiting it is and the fact there's no distribution or print costs involved, there's just no excuse to charge that much any longer.
I don't understand why you'd give them more than you would for the printed copy regardless.

Even if they have the same amount of content, with a pdf you're restricted to reading it on your PC, you can't quickly thumb through pages as easily as you can with a print magazine, you can't lend it to friends to glance over...it's horribly limiting compared to an actual magazine.

There's no way I'm willing to pay even $5/month each for Dragon and Dungeon. Combined with how limiting it is and the fact there's no distribution or print costs involved, there's just no excuse to charge that much any longer.

First off, you do scan the pages and put them in the pdf format. Unless you can take it from a printer and have a computer do that. Then you can move the file to where you want there has to be a cost involved in pdfs. Plus, please who pays for the bandwidth that it takes to download them. I can't believe people can't critical think enough to understand NOTHING is free.

The point I made about paying more is a simple one, I guess for a few, It falls on the paying for the DDI. At this moment in time I see nothing from WoTC to warrant me paying anything more. I think the Dragon and Dungeon format is a joke. Basically its web articles that follow a theme. Not an e-zine at all.
First off, you do scan the pages and put them in the pdf format. Unless you can take it from a printer and have a computer do that. Then you can move the file to where you want there has to be a cost involved in pdfs. Plus, please who pays for the bandwidth that it takes to download them. I can't believe people can't critical think enough to understand NOTHING is free.

The point I made about paying more is a simple one, I guess for a few, It falls on the paying for the DDI. At this moment in time I see nothing from WoTC to warrant me paying anything more. I think the Dragon and Dungeon format is a joke. Basically its web articles that follow a theme. Not an e-zine at all.

There is a print to pdf application free on the internet. Bascially, anything you would send to a printer can be transformed into a PDF. That eliminates all of the 'scanning' that would be required.

WOTC needs to clear the air on their intent. The latest content has page numbers that make it obvious there is an overall format. What is upsetting me is how long it is taking to have all of it come out. We shouldn't be fed each article every other day - it should come out 'as an issue'. I'm too old to be coming here every day. Got too many other things I need to be doing.
I can't believe people can't critical think enough to understand NOTHING is free.

I can't believe people are so full of hot air they can't understand that no matter what costs might be involved in putting these articles into a pdf form, it doesn't come near the costs for a print magazine. See? I can do that too.
I can't believe people are so full of hot air they can't understand that no matter what costs might be involved in putting these articles into a pdf form, it doesn't come near the costs for a print magazine. See? I can do that too.

You forgot... BANDWIDTH isn't cheap. Someone has to pay for that traffic.
For chrissake...Okay. Find me evidence that remotely suggests the costs of bandwidth are anywhere near the costs of printing. I would be willing to hazard a guess that, given the decline of many print magazines (D & D, Hardcore Gamer, etc), that it's just a -bit- cheaper to offer their content online. But hey, what do I know?
For chrissake...Okay. Find me evidence that remotely suggests the costs of bandwidth are anywhere near the costs of printing. I would be willing to hazard a guess that, given the decline of many print magazines (D & D, Hardcore Gamer, etc), that it's just a -bit- cheaper to offer their content online. But hey, what do I know?

You stated that paying for pdf's was to much money. I said there is the cost of bandwidth and other related costs that go into it. Of the printed magazines you can ask most bookstore people and they will state unless they don't get enough or the issue is totally great they usually send it back.

So yes I can see why many places are not printing mags. With the digital age most people read web sites. Although those websites are mainly FREE. I do see a reason to get people to pay a little to offset the prices.

Look at it they want $15 a month or what is it $120 a year (if paid upfront)? There is no reason at this time to even give them $15 a year. Since that is what most print mags want for a year if not two years.
For chrissake...Okay. Find me evidence that remotely suggests the costs of bandwidth are anywhere near the costs of printing. I would be willing to hazard a guess that, given the decline of many print magazines (D & D, Hardcore Gamer, etc), that it's just a -bit- cheaper to offer their content online. But hey, what do I know?

Actually the United States internet providers are about to try and kill off the advancement of ecommerce so they do not have to upsize there infrastructure. With the announcement of AT&T planning to implement bandwidth caps on their customers and the cable companies already starting to charge more for those who use more bandwidth. You will see people more concerned on bandwidth usage. You might think that 40GB is an extreme amount of bandwidth. A lot of companies are thinking of ways to provide content to customers over the internet. A movie rental from Amazon is two to two and a half gigabyte in size. If TV broadcasts move onto the internet in high definition just imagine the bandwidth usage.

You now see the fear of the internet providers. They have been pocketing the money as opposed to reinvesting in support of growth. You know they have been pulling reports on growth and are seeing how quickly it is growing and the cost to meet that need will cut into the bottom line too much.

So while you may think that bandwidth is a fraction of your monthly cost, soon this will no longer be true. I am not advocating legislation to deal with this, just a heads up that we are about to enter troubled times with internet access. People will become far more concerned with bandwidth as the internet service providers are tiring to limit supply as demand increases.
Isn't it also Comcast or the like some place in Texas saying that you will now be paying for bandwidth and not just speed. Since they found 10% of their customers used 60% of their total bandwidth used total. They felt they should get more out of those 10%, which is funny because they didn't want to make it cheaper on the other 90% in the same token.
Isn't it also Comcast or the like some place in Texas saying that you will now be paying for bandwidth and not just speed. Since they found 10% of their customers used 60% of their total bandwidth used total. They felt they should get more out of those 10%, which is funny because they didn't want to make it cheaper on the other 90% in the same token.

It is very possible. Some ISPs have tried bandwidth in the past, others have used pricing based on amount of time connected in the old days when most were on dial up.
Plans are always subject to change.
For chrissake...Okay. Find me evidence that remotely suggests the costs of bandwidth are anywhere near the costs of printing. I would be willing to hazard a guess that, given the decline of many print magazines (D & D, Hardcore Gamer, etc), that it's just a -bit- cheaper to offer their content online. But hey, what do I know?

Doesn't that suggest that the price point of print magazines are too low to be sustainable?
Doesn't that suggest that the price point of print magazines are too low to be sustainable?

When they were outsourced, it appears that company was earning money. Even I suspect paying WotC some percentage. Paizo did not decide not to renew, WotC decided not to renew.
Logic indicates the outsourced product was considered sustainable to that company.
Plans are always subject to change.
Particularly as Kobold Quarterly and the Pathfinder adventure paths lept to the fore as soon as this was announced...

Why START a brand new magazine when the ones in existence failed to earn money?

C'mon.
Particularly as Kobold Quarterly and the Pathfinder adventure paths lept to the fore as soon as this was announced...

Why START a brand new magazine when the ones in existence failed to earn money?

C'mon.

Pathfinder is $19.99 an issue with a page count slightly less than my last issue of Dragon. Doesn't exactly disprove my hypothosis that the price point for Dragon was too low.

Edit: I also find it funny that Pathfinder PDFs are effectively a $13.99 monthly subscription. For just PDF issues. The DDI, if/when they actually get it up and running is a $9.99 a month subscription. I would be very amused if it turns out that the Dragon and Dungeon online magazines that go with it actually have more content than Pathfinder PDFs.

Granted, DDI isn't really here yet to make a comparision on content. Then again the DDI subscription isn't around for comparison to Pathfinder either.
When they were outsourced, it appears that company was earning money. Even I suspect paying WotC some percentage. Paizo did not decide not to renew, WotC decided not to renew.
Logic indicates the outsourced product was considered sustainable to that company.

No need to suspect that Paizo paid WotC for the right to use the Dragon and Dungeons brands, that is exactly what licensing is. That doesn't mean that it was profitable enough for WOTC and that doesn't mean that Paizo was willing to agree to terms more favorable to WOTC in order to keep the license.

Snarky message board posters aside, WOTC isn't in the business of not making money.
Snarky message board posters aside, WOTC isn't in the business of not making money.

No buisiness is that wants to last.
The KQ is pdf and not print. I guess they did 1 print version of one issue but you can't go to your Local Gaming Store and get it.

The last issue of Dragon put the retail up to almost $10. I'm sorry but there really isn't ANY mag worth that. I do purchase some mags for $16 but those are EU mags with Free Retail Versions of computer programs.

I paid for a 3-year sub of Dragon for cheaper than what you could get 1 year for (before they canceled).

So someone was mismanaging money somewhere.
Q: Dear Sage
Will each of the online Dragon Magazines be put into a PDF so we can continue to collect each issue?
--Scott

A: Yes, they will. We’re currently running articles for Dragon #361, which will be collected into a PDF around the end of December. The PDF for issue #360 will be posted in the very near future.

Link to Source.

So is WOTC just straight up lying now?

What about fan-made pdfs of the missing issues?
They have not put out pdfs apart from the very first Dragon magazne (which they did put out eventually after that announcement).

While they seem to have abandoned their 3rd edition products, I hope they will at least "clean up" their prior responsibilities and do what they said they would.

I'd like to see collected pdfs of those prior mags (if only from a collector's standpoint....it's irksome to have a gap in a collection).

I'd also like to see the other promised adventures for third edition:
Parts two and three of Touch of Madness
Cross City Chase

I personally think they should release them in both third edition and fourth. This could be a really cool way to showcase the differences/improvements between the systems. I'd even enjoy running the same adventure twice--once in each system. They could even give us 3rd and 4th edition pregenerated characters for the adventures (for the same reason--to showcase the differences.)
I personally like the digital magazines better. I don't like to read every article and every adventure, just the ones that appeal to me. I also like getting the articles as they are ready. I have time to kill at work and it's nice to come to the D&D website and find a new article has popped up.

However, we're in July and the June Dungeon and Dragon magazines haven't been compiled into whole editions yet. That's not right. Also, if you go to the TOC page, it shows articles that aren't available yet, just without the link. The problem is that the TOC isn't updated when the article is released. So you think that they aren't ready yet even though they are. To see all the articles, you have to go to the HOME tab and then hit the archive link... at least that's how I found articles that supposedly weren't available yet.

So, what I think is needed is:

  • A solid deadline for the magazines to be done and downloadable in their entirety each month (so you don't have to keep checking back.)
  • Update the TOC as each new article becomes available, so you can easily see what's available so far.
  • Extra printable maps without monster info/secret doors from the adventures. Actually, this is another topic, but I am mentioning it every chance I can get because I'm starting to run H1 in a couple of weeks and want the maps ;)
The KQ is pdf and not print. I guess they did 1 print version of one issue but you can't go to your Local Gaming Store and get it.

The last issue of Dragon put the retail up to almost $10. I'm sorry but there really isn't ANY mag worth that. I do purchase some mags for $16 but those are EU mags with Free Retail Versions of computer programs.

I paid for a 3-year sub of Dragon for cheaper than what you could get 1 year for (before they canceled).

So someone was mismanaging money somewhere.

Not in print? I think you're misinformed (glances at his print copies of issues 2, 3, 4 and 5) - either that or I'm seeing things.

Also, my brother owns a gaming store, and I believe he was investigating ways to get print copies of KQ into his store, though I haven't spoken to him recently so I can't be sure. I'll see him this weekend and I'll ask.

- Ashavan
Keep in mind that the online Dragon does not have any advertisements, a very important source of revenue for most print magazines.

Personally I really like the PDF version, layout, etc.

Most importantly, the editorial content of 364 was top-notch. If this high quality continues it's going to be real hard not to subscribe.
I have almost every print issue of Dragon and all the best of series. My first issue is 3. I'm missing like 15. My total magazine count for Dragon has to be near 500 issues. I have a lot of duplicates that when I was trying to get all my issues I found myself buying collections just to get the ones I wanted and maybe trade the others off.

Well with that said, I TOTALLY hate an e-zine. I don't have a laptop or anything of the sort (it would be a waste for me). So I'm not going to lug around my monster gaming rig just for I have the electronic format around.

Look at the game updates. The D&D books come out on the 7th of June and on the 10th there is already a long list (3 pages for phb) of things that need fixing. The Monster Manual fixes were just stupid of WoTC. I mean you totally change it and should issue a recall and ship out a fixed one. There is way to many problems and you should do a better job of editing.

But with electronic format it is just a few clicks of the keyboard and mouse and it is updated.

So maybe if they didn't make as many mistakes they wouldn't need to go do something on the cheap.

With the ads, when WoTC ran Dragon I actually looked at the ads since it was a place to go get something. When Paizo ran Dragon it was just to push their crap.
Not in print? I think you're misinformed (glances at his print copies of issues 2, 3, 4 and 5) - either that or I'm seeing things.

Also, my brother owns a gaming store, and I believe he was investigating ways to get print copies of KQ into his store, though I haven't spoken to him recently so I can't be sure. I'll see him this weekend and I'll ask.

- Ashavan

At the time of my post. KQ only was selling the 1st issue in print. The sub at their site and at paizo was both for pdfs. Now if you go to their site they sell a combo PDF/Print for like 28 bucks and s/h for 4 issues (which for me is another 8 bucks. Are they crazy?

1. I shouldn't have to pay s/h on a sub for a print magazine that should be factored in.

2. I don't even see why a magazine of such few pages could cost that much.

3. Look at the other print subs of other high quality printing papers out there
[INDENT]
Playboy 1 year is $12 and you get a free dvd 2 years is $19.97 (and they charge only 33 cents per issue).[/INDENT]
[INDENT]Popular Science for 3 years is $19.95[/INDENT]
[INDENT]Business Week (50 issues) is for $46.00[/INDENT]
Playboy has the advantage of having the equipment to mass produce magazines like crazy.

Kobold Quarterly is being run by very few people comparatively.

It's almost like saying "Why is this hand-crafted vase so expensive? I can get a vase at Walmart for $10!"
Playboy has the advantage of having the equipment to mass produce magazines like crazy.

Kobold Quarterly is being run by very few people comparatively.

It's almost like saying "Why is this hand-crafted vase so expensive? I can get a vase at Walmart for $10!"

Hand crafted is Playboy the Walmart vase is Kobold Quarterly.