Marking Marked and Other 4E-isms

76 posts / 0 new
Last post
Since the primary argument seems to be that my claims are speculation based on on hysteria, then I present you with a factual claim as to my correctness based on your, "What I perceive is what I consider truth" arguments. Out of 574 views of this topic, only 2 people have argued against my point. I learned in debate that opposition voices complaint where those in agreement do not voice support. Out of 574 viewers you two alone are against me. Meaning that the other 500+ (granted us three have contributed to multiple views) have not disagreed with me, suggesting they share my views.

Prove me wrong.

That's a stretch. That many views are just that, views. They may be people looking for more information to help shape their opinions, they may have opinions that any of us have already expressed, they may just be "lurkers" who don't care to post, or people who don't have forum accounts.

Heck, depending on how this implementation of the boards is configured, any number of those views could be assorted web spiders for Google and the like taking an index of the page.

Just like you pull a number out of thin air to make it look like your claims that Greyhawk is the most played campaign, you're now pulling a number out of the air to show that people who have voiced NO OPINION AT ALL are supporters of yours.

Just like your Greyhawk campaign argument, I could just as easily argue that those unvoiced viewers are supporting me.

If I then extended your logic, I would have to argue that if there are two people (more now I see) arguing against your lone voice that that's further evidence that we must hold the majority opinion, so those viewers are all with us.

For the record I make no such claim. I think *most* people are fairly ambivalent about the future of 4E, and that's why there's always going to be more people viewing ANY thread than posting in it. They're here to get what info they can, see if there's any new tidbits of information, and they move on.

Also, I dunno that I'd say your opinions are based on hysteria. You don't strike me as extreme enough to be hysterical. You *do* seem to be VERY speculative, based on a few small fragments that you've assembled to mean what you want them to mean.

At the end of the day, I'm not going to change your opinion - if you think 4E looks like WoW, then it probably does to you (unless you're just trolling for reactions).

What I try to combat, where possible, is the spread of misinformation (including opinions formed on misinformation), and impatience.

In my opinion, you fall into the former category. I've tried to keep rebutting your speculations by showing what I feel are the faults in your logic that lead to those opinions. You've replied with further speculation that you feel shows you represent a majority.

In the long run, I'd ask you take a good look at what *specifically* you don't like about 4E, not what you *assume* is going to happen to it, and then check any number of informational pages (I suggest the 4E page at ENWorld) to see if things are really as dire as you think they are.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Also, I dunno that I'd say your opinions are based on hysteria.

No, that was me. And I admit it was an unnecessarily hostile and hyperbolic reaction. As someone who's playing the game, I'm just easily frustrated when I see wild assumptions and things being blown far out of proportion... and when I'm called a toady or a lackey of "my WotC masters" simply because having played it I do disagree that it's completely based on WoW or that it's the end of roleplaying as we know it.

But at the end of the day namecalling doesn't help anyone, so my bad.
No, that was me. And I admit it was an unnecessarily hostile and hyperbolic reaction. As someone who's playing the game, I'm just easily frustrated when I see wild assumptions and things being blown far out of proportion... and when I'm called a toady or a lackey of "my WotC masters" simply because having played it I do disagree that it's completely based on WoW or that it's the end of roleplaying as we know it.

But at the end of the day namecalling doesn't help anyone, so my bad.

Ah, I'd missed that part of the exchange.

Just as well, at least you stepped up and admitted it. Partial credit for that at least.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

You three may need to get a room of your own ;)

I have a few things id like to add to this off topic sillyness before I ask that we take the thread back on topic.

1. Dranei and the new tieflings looks do share many artistic elements in common. Of course they are not exactly the same artistically or that would be just silly. But the art style and depictions I have seen of both do have similarities. that being said I dont really care if they do share them. I think that Blizzard snatched the concept from the 3.5 tieflings and used that concept to make them, and now WotC is using thier art style. I guess if there is a realationship between the two it is give and take.

2. DDI and the tabletop game are two different things. And as far as a good D&D MMO or artifical play experience. I say bring that on. The last few D&D videogame offereings were very poor to say the least. DDO had the potential to be so much more than it was, and NWN2 reeks of fail. If WotC has it in mind to get behind the helm of a real D&D video game offering I say bring it on. Besides I dont play video games with my D&D group. Its something I do with my other personal leisure time. (that isnt taken up by wife, teaching, or work) So if a good D&D video game comes up its not gonna desdtroy my gaming group.

3. Anything that is in the genre of fantasy could be considered to have elements of D&D and D&D has historically taken elements from all of them. Luckily for us you cannot copyright a genre. As as long as two things are in the same genre then it is possible to easily compare them. Hell I could compare D&D 3.0 with WoW and come to several logical similarities. As the content of both of those products involves fantasy.

4. Calling people names because thier opinions differ from yours is assnine. I know some of the folks who crawl out of the woodwork when you have a negative sentiment are rude and bullheaded. And sometimes they may get you angry by constantly missing your point. But I feel that most times its not that they miss your point, they just want to keep argueing. Its a messageboard, and this will always happen. And who am I to deny them the right to express thier bullheaded rude opinions.

5. Making fun of peoples typos or spelling does not invalidate thier opinion. I am handicapped, and I have a VERY hard time typing. Conesquently I generate several typos per post usually. I dont feel my opinion is any less valid as a result of it, nor does it remove my right to offer it. Im sure that when you look at the words thief or theif that its fairly easy for you to grasp the meaning of it, especially when its put in to context in a sentence.

Anyways though back on the topic of marking. Thank you to the folks who reccomended the Alea disks. Im waiting on my shipment to arrive as we speak. not sure if im going to use the magnets yet. but we will see.

Be good.
You three may need to get a room of your own ;)

Ewww, I don't wanna room with these jerks! *look in mirror* Oh. . .


Anyways though back on the topic of marking. Thank you to the folks who reccomended the Alea disks. Im waiting on my shipment to arrive as we speak. not sure if im going to use the magnets yet. but we will see.

Be good.

Added bonus - not only are Alea Tools nifty, the guys are already working to come up with a color-code system to help represent Marks and save effects in 4E. They're also really nice guys from the couple times I've talked to them.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Since the primary argument seems to be that my claims are speculation based on on hysteria, then I present you with a factual claim as to my correctness based on your, "What I perceive is what I consider truth" arguments. Out of 574 views of this topic, only 2 people have argued against my point. I learned in debate that opposition voices complaint where those in agreement do not voice support. Out of 574 viewers you two alone are against me. Meaning that the other 500+ (granted us three have contributed to multiple views) have not disagreed with me, suggesting they share my views.

Prove me wrong.

I think what the other 572 people are really thinking is what in the heck is this guy going on about? I thought this was a thread dedicated to discussing the issue of marking in 4E. He's going on about 4E killing Gary Gygax, and the game turning into an MMO, and god only knows what else. It looks to me like this thread has been totally derailed. I think I'm going to move onto a thread that at least makes a shred of sense.
Quite honestly, chaoticprime the reason that I've hesitated (up until this point obviously) to give my own opinion on this subject is for the very same reason that I don't go up to people with tinfoil hats and signs that say "the end is nigh!" and start arguing with them-because it's likely to do absolutely nothing. ;)

And I'd posit the of the 574 or so people who've viewed this thread, more than a few were intrigued by, say Smug's and Dovearrow's articulate and reasoned debate, but then saw the internet equivalent of that aforementione tinfoil hat-wearing, doomsday-sign carrying, ranting and raving individual.
I think what the other 572 people are really thinking is what in the heck is this guy going on about? I thought this was a thread dedicated to discussing the issue of marking in 4E.

Um, yeah. I contributed about ten of those 570ish views, and they were all driven by the actual subject of the thread, not this off topic sideline. Though as long as I'm back, count me as a "me too" for Smug and WolfStar's position.

I'll also say that while I've been taking the position that marks AREN'T that hard to track, I will say that Alea Tools' disks are a very useful tool that I've used off and on for years (in my 3E game, mind you). Whether you're tracking spell effects, concealment, height, using them to represent swarms (I love swarms) or as bases for magnetic tokens, or many other uses, they're a great tool. Up to this point I hadn't actually bothered to use them in my 4E game, but as a result of this thread I did use them in my last game and they WERE a great tool for tracking those marks! But I'll hold to my previous point. As useful as they are, they aren't necessary to run a 4E game - and they are, in fact, just as useful in a 3E game.
Since the primary argument seems to be that my claims are speculation based on on hysteria, then I present you with a factual claim as to my correctness based on your, "What I perceive is what I consider truth" arguments. Out of 574 views of this topic, only 2 people have argued against my point. I learned in debate that opposition voices complaint where those in agreement do not voice support. Out of 574 viewers you two alone are against me. Meaning that the other 500+ (granted us three have contributed to multiple views) have not disagreed with me, suggesting they share my views.

Prove me wrong.

Umm, I disagree with you. I just hadn't posted 'cause you are a troll.

Besides the fact that I had viewed this thread multiple times before you began stinking up the place. 550 times to be exact.

So at best your phantom yes men amount to, Umm... lessee here, carry the one, um yeh.

-8 people think you are in the right. By my rigorous calculations you don't even find your own arguments credible.
Some of those views are probably like me, not to sound stalkerish but knowing the Hellcow actually has access to 4th edition I every so often search for 'all posts by' to see what he has to say about it.

Really what I would have to say on the subject has been said and don't feel like arguing against a brick wall. Don't assume silence means people agree with you. People may just not have interest in addressing your arguement.
Aesop had it right 2,500 years ago, "By endeavoring to please everyone, he had pleased no one, and lost his ass in the bargain".
I'll also say that while I've been taking the position that marks AREN'T that hard to track, I will say that Alea Tools' disks are a very useful tool that I've used off and on for years (in my 3E game, mind you). Whether you're tracking spell effects, concealment, height, using them to represent swarms (I love swarms) or as bases for magnetic tokens, or many other uses, they're a great tool.

I do agree with you on that one. One of the people in my Saturday group has some of the Alea Tools discs and we use them all the time. In fact, we have developed a kind of bloodied system of our own using them. In our game, yellow means the character is down less than 1/3 of its hit points, orange means the character is down at least 1/3 of its hit points, and red means that at least 2/3 of its hit points are gone.

Mind you, these are more like guidelines, than actual rules (yes, I quoted Pirates of the Carribbean). At higher levels, when a character is down 2/3 of its hit points they might still have 100-150 hit points left, which means that they might still have a couple of rounds to go before the PCs take them down. In those cases, we may wait until they're down to having only 20 or 30 hit points left before we put the red token under them. Still, this system gives players and DMs at least some idea of how hurt characters are in game, without necessarily knowing exactly how many hit points they have left.
Since the primary argument seems to be that my claims are speculation based on on hysteria, then I present you with a factual claim as to my correctness based on your, "What I perceive is what I consider truth" arguments. Out of 574 views of this topic, only 2 people have argued against my point. I learned in debate that opposition voices complaint where those in agreement do not voice support. Out of 574 viewers you two alone are against me. Meaning that the other 500+ (granted us three have contributed to multiple views) have not disagreed with me, suggesting they share my views.

Prove me wrong.

You're wrong. I've been viewing this thread, but prefer not to engage in such debates since I get the impression that nothing I say will change your mind and I'm not going to waste my time on a task that honestly has no real value to me. However, I'm pretty offended that you're trying to put words into my mouth, so congratulations, you've brought me into the debate.
Hey guys, I think we've pretty firmly established that Chaotic Prime was at least unintentionally derailing the thread. I therefore don't think it serves the conversation to keep derailing it further.
From a recent critique of 4E

  • Marks and similar mechanics. These are abilities that let you designate a certain foe that has certain effects. This is fine in theory. However, the paladin and fighter’s marks counteract each other, while the ranger’s and warlock’s don’t. Paladin, Fighter, and Ranger can only have one mark at a time, but the Warlock can have many. Ranger and Warlock can only affect the closest enemy, others can only mark certain people. What should be one consistent mechanic not only does a different thing for each class, but acts different in play.
  • Easily forgettable bonuses are still in full force. There’s still plenty of “I give you an AC bonus this round”, then “Oh wait, I forgot his AC bonus, it actually misses. Wait, was that this round or last round?”

I don't know Keith. I'm scared again.
In regards to the first point, I can see there being a problem with what is meant to be a unified rule being broken up like that. However, if you think of marks as class features, well, class features have always varied by class (that seems like a duh statement, but I just finished a long day at work, so sue me--actually, don't, I'm a poor grad student). So you're going from something which has always been very disjointed to something that, while still being disjointed, is more unified than it has been in the past.

As for the second point, well, I don't have enough information about 4E to comment. I'm suspecting that while bonuses getting forgotten is still an issue, it's less of an issue than it has been before. So 4E is moving in the right direction, even if it's not perfect. If you did achieve perfection on this point, there's going to be something else that you'll be sacraficing to achieve it. Removing small, temporary bonuses removes a heck of a lot of potential powers, with the result that player options will be significantly reduced.
I dont think forgetting bonuses will be less of an issue. My group uses a dry erase board to handle initiave order. It has an entry panel on lefthand side for the characters and the DM to enter their initiatives, and the rest of it is gridded (im nto even sure thats a real word, it looks kind funny) and the top line is numbered. Every player gets a check put in the box for thier round when thier turn comes up. (one player handles this role every session and I give them a little exp bonus for doing so, I also give a bonus to the notetaker, and the keeper of the battlemat maps).

When an effect starts that has a round duration it gets an entry on the table with the same initiative as the creator of the effect. It gets checked of round by round as the creator takes his/her turn. effects that add modifiers tha persist throught the combat are written in at the top. It can be a pain sometimes but we usually dont miss those effects. If player doesnt add the modifiers in before the attack is resolved then they just dont get the modifiers for that attack. Its harsh, but it makes them pay attention to whats going on.

Marked appears to function very similarly to dodge.As it appears to have a much greater mechanical impact on the game than dodge it will be more important to keep track of. I bought the group some ale disks which will be in my hands long before I run 4e to help them remember. But I will handle it exactly as I handle dodge. In my group its the players responsibility to keep track of things like dodge. If they dont let me know the ability is in effect before I resolve the monsters attack roll, then it is not in effect for that round.
I don't know Keith. I'm scared again.

And I respect that. Ilike I said, I'm enjoying it and haven't found book-keeping to be a problem (and combat is my least favorite part of 3E). But again, I'm not trying to suggest that something that doesn't bother me won't be a problem for you, or that it's somehow the holy grail of gaming systems. Check it out for yourself when you have a chance - maybe you'll find that it's not so frightening after all, or perhaps it will turn out to be your worst nightmare come to life!
Since the primary argument seems to be that my claims are speculation based on on hysteria, then I present you with a factual claim as to my correctness based on your, "What I perceive is what I consider truth" arguments. Out of 574 views of this topic, only 2 people have argued against my point. I learned in debate that opposition voices complaint where those in agreement do not voice support. Out of 574 viewers you two alone are against me. Meaning that the other 500+ (granted us three have contributed to multiple views) have not disagreed with me, suggesting they share my views.

Prove me wrong.

I will prove you wrong.
I am one of the 500+ Viewers that until I saw your post that just felt it was unneccessary to post anything on the discussion. But I can say100% FOR SURE I DON"T SHARE YOUR VIEWS.

I learned in debate that lack of information and facts can lead to "Foot in Mouth Syndrome". Maybe the other 499+ Viewers of this form just felt like me and didn't want to waste thier time posting anything.

There are several things I see that seems weird in postings here.

Someone stated that they have played 4E...You must be a playtester then or in a houseruled 4E system because 4E has not been released yet..

Someone said you have to use miniatures...Well I have been playing since 1978, Nopebody forced me to buy figures..(or better known to you younger whipper snappers..miniatures). I did it on my own accorrd. And Toys by Roy loved me for it.
Someone stated that they have played 4E...You must be a playtester then.

That would be me, and yes, I am.

And on topic, I haven't found tracking marks to be a big issue. Certainly no worse than Dodge. And almost all of the bonuses DoveArrow mentions in his last post ("My attack gives you a bonus...") fall into one of two categories: one-round duration or encounter duration. So yes, you have to remember that bless is giving you a +1 to attack - but you don't have to remember that you only get the benefit of bless for four more rounds.

Looking to 3E you have all sorts of duration-based bonuses. Virtually all spells. Bard song. Barbarian rage. Shifting. Not only do I have to remember the bonus from bard song, I have to remember that it lasts for three rounds after the bard stops singing. Now let's see - he had to stop singing to cast sleep, and that means I still did have the bonus when I made that attack... and so on.

4E doesn't completely escape this issue; doing that would require you to completely abolish buffing effects. But I'll maintain that it's easier than 3E - because you have similar effects, but you at least remove one element of complexity (duration). If you give me the bonus for one round, I only have to remember it for one round. If it's going to last for the encounter, I may forget it, but when we DO remember, there's no question that I should have had the bonus. There's no "It lasts 3 rounds after I stop singing... wait, can I sing and use Bluff?"
That would be me, and yes, I am.

In a way I bet that sucks, because I know your chomping at the bits to just blurt out what can't be said yet about the game.

I know what little has been put out here and there has not exactly turned me onto 4E. But I am not gonna put down the system until I see in print what and how everything works. I have stated many times that all I use is the PHB, DMG, MM and MIC so its not about having to spend alot of money on alot of new books. There has always been stuff about every system I have palyed that I really liked and some that I have hated, I am sure there will be things in 4E that I will adapt and others I will just absolutely hate. I have always used a hybrid system a bit from 1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5 E and our own.

As for Markers. I think it may or may not really help because I don't know what type of players everyone is playing with. I have been playing with the same people since 1978 so we are pretty good about working together and have pretty good memories.. So If we don't remember that someone is hasted, paralyzed, enchanted or what ever we won't know what a colored disc is for anyways.
The one who has played 4E would he Hellcow, Keith Baker, creator of Eberron. He's a freelance designer, he's not a WotC employee, but he has been given access to the 4E material as he'll be working on some upcoming stuff. He is of course under a strict NDA, but has been nice enough to talk about his opinions of the system while not breaking the NDA.
Aesop had it right 2,500 years ago, "By endeavoring to please everyone, he had pleased no one, and lost his ass in the bargain".
The one who has played 4E would he Hellcow, Keith Baker, creator of Eberron.

Well, I'm one of them. I've got eight people under NDA in my playtest group, and that's just MY playtest group.

But John Paul is right - I AM champing at the bit to talk about it. There's a number of things I like about th system that aren't tied directly to combat and that work especially well with Eberron... but which haven't been revealed in enough detail for me to talk about them.

Beyond that, I agree with Smug's point about duration being simplified. Buffing effects still exist, but since they do generally fall into the "Lasts one turn" or "lasts all encounter" categories, it's easier than saying "Now, I have 4 rounds of rage, 5 rounds in my shifting, and the bard song is on for another 2 rounds." It's not perfect, but for me, it's certainly an improvement.
One more standing bravely against the overwhelming tide of chaoticprime supporters.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Since the primary argument seems to be that my claims are speculation based on on hysteria, then I present you with a factual claim as to my correctness based on your, "What I perceive is what I consider truth" arguments. Out of 574 views of this topic, only 2 people have argued against my point. I learned in debate that opposition voices complaint where those in agreement do not voice support. Out of 574 viewers you two alone are against me. Meaning that the other 500+ (granted us three have contributed to multiple views) have not disagreed with me, suggesting they share my views.

Prove me wrong.

Others have already proved you wrong. But, come on: You know very well the logic you used there is specious.
But I am totally a 12th level wotc plant, so what do i know?

Walk in profit, Brother. *secret handshake*


As a quasi on-topic question: Do you think marking can be used to facilitate/help a "You killed it, it's your XP" reward system? You know, instead of sharing XP?
Walk in profit, Brother. *secret handshake*


As a quasi on-topic question: Do you think marking can be used to facilitate/help a "You killed it, it's your XP" reward system? You know, instead of sharing XP?

While I don't know why you'd want to go that way, I don't see why not.

Give each player a poker chip (or bingo chip) of their own color, have whoever's getting credit for the kill place the counter under the dead mob (on the map or off it) and you've got a tracking system without slowing combat.

After combat, tally the totals, re-gather your minis (or stones, or pennies, whatever), and reset for the next round.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

While I don't know why you'd want to go that way, I don't see why not.

Give each player a poker chip (or bingo chip) of their own color, have whoever's getting credit for the kill place the counter under the dead mob (on the map or off it) and you've got a tracking system without slowing combat.

After combat, tally the totals, re-gather your minis (or stones, or pennies, whatever), and reset for the next round.

It's a good idea. However, as WolfStar said, I don't know why you'd want to go that way, since it screws over any spellcasters that primarily cast spells that buff up the party. Oh, and bards. It royally screws over bards.
Well, my group is normally melee heavy (god knows why :rolleyes and they get very, very competitive over who did what, who killed what, and who should get the rewards for it.

"All you did is bleed this encounter! You shouldn't get a fair share of XP/Gold/Magic Items!"

And so on, and so forth.
Well, my group is normally melee heavy (god knows why :rolleyes and they get very, very competitive over who did what, who killed what, and who should get the rewards for it.

"All you did is bleed this encounter! You shouldn't get a fair share of XP/Gold/Magic Items!"

And so on, and so forth.

Seriously? I would be sorely tempted to make that person into a monster magnet.
Seriously? I would be sorely tempted to make that person into a monster magnet.

Well, I tried that, but then all my players started doing it. Kinda par for the course, really.

Sorta back on topic, if the Pally uses his Mark for damage (AoE, right?) and then the Ftr steals it, on the next turn, can't the Pally load it up again? And couldn't they just repeat this till the target drops from mark damage?

Wouldn't the Pally essentially kill the target without having to touch it, or am I missing something here?
Well, I tried that, but then all my players started doing it. Kinda par for the course, really.

Sorta back on topic, if the Pally uses his Mark for damage (AoE, right?) and then the Ftr steals it, on the next turn, can't the Pally load it up again? And couldn't they just repeat this till the target drops from mark damage?

Wouldn't the Pally essentially kill the target without having to touch it, or am I missing something here?

Based on DDXP it would work as follows:

FIGHTER - I use my mark on the BBEG.
(BBEG is marked and -2 to attacks not involving the fighter)
PALADIN - I use my mark on the BBEG
(BBEG loses Fighter's Mark, has -2 to attacks and 8 damage for attacks not involving the paladin)
BBEG fireballs paladin and 2 other people - takes no penalty
FIGHTER - I use my mark on the BBEG . . .
(BBEG loses paladin mark, -2 to attacks not involving fighter)
PALADIN - I use my mark. . .
(wash, rinse, repeat)

The mark itself does no damage, it just *attempts* to convice the victim to target whomever landed the mark. Failure to attack the "marker" has penalties (to hit and/or damage)
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

I'll point out here that the DDXP marks appear not to be the final versions of the marks. The fighter's mark has consequences beyond the -2 attack. And the paladin's mark (among other things) requires the paladin to actively work to maintain it - so he can't mark the BBEG and then run away (I can't give details, but it will be hard for the paladin to kill the target with his mark without at least being in a position where he is a valid target should the victim wish to attack him).

Beyond this, as has just been pointed out, the target of the mark only takes damage if he makes an attack that does not involve the paladin. It's not instant damage when the mark is placed. So if the fighter replaces the mark before the target actually has a chance to make an attack, the paladin's mark has no effect whatsoever. As Wolfstar has said, it's something that primarily affects target determination - "Should you attack those in my charge instead of facing me, my god will punish you." And as WS pointed out, if the target can do some form of area attack that hits the paladin and others at the same time, he's fine.

This situation will also only come up if you have a paladin and a fighter (or two paladins, or two fighters) in the same party. While this may have been the case at DDXP, in the two groups I'm running at home they chose to go with extra strikers; thus one group has a paladin and the other a fighter.
I'll point out here that the DDXP marks appear not to be the final versions of the marks. The fighter's mark has consequences beyond the -2 attack. And the paladin's mark (among other things) requires the paladin to actively work to maintain it - so he can't mark the BBEG and then run away (I can't give details, but it will be hard for the paladin to kill the target with his mark without at least being in a position where he is a valid target should the victim wish to attack him).

Beyond this, as has just been pointed out, the target of the mark only takes damage if he makes an attack that does not involve the paladin. It's not instant damage when the mark is placed. So if the fighter replaces the mark before the target actually has a chance to make an attack, the paladin's mark has no effect whatsoever. As Wolfstar has said, it's something that primarily affects target determination - "Should you attack those in my charge instead of facing me, my god will punish you." And as WS pointed out, if the target can do some form of area attack that hits the paladin and others at the same time, he's fine.

This situation will also only come up if you have a paladin and a fighter (or two paladins, or two fighters) in the same party. While this may have been the case at DDXP, in the two groups I'm running at home they chose to go with extra strikers; thus one group has a paladin and the other a fighter.

Thanks for the updates, HC.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Nevermind.

Shadow Network DM

Sign In to post comments