V-Minis and Adventures

33 posts / 0 new
Last post
Here's my hope:

I hope that when I buy a D&D adventure module and go to unlock the online content for it using my D&DI account, I will have easy access to all the V-Minis I need for that adventure.

Either through automatically receiving a "package" of V-Minis or getting a discount on purchasing an "adventure pack" of V-Minis.

That's my hope, anyway.

Fairbanks
Fairbanks, level 5 Human, Slayer (Multiclass: Cavalier) Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort Background: Blademaster (Acrobatics class skill) Theme: Neverwinter Noble FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 18, CON 10, DEX 17, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 13 STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 16, CON 10, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 12 AC: 20 Fort: 19 Ref: 16 Will: 14 HP: 49/49 Surges: 6/9 Surge Value: 10 [X] Action Point [] Second Wind TRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +10, Athletics +11, Diplomacy +8, Endurance +7, Intimidate +8 UNTRAINED SKILLS Arcana +2, Bluff +3, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, History +2, Insight +2, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +2, Stealth +5, Streetwise +3, Thievery +5 POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Card Link Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Card Link [] Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort Card Link [X] [X] Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike Card Link [X] Fighter Utility: Duelist's Assault Card Link [] Fighter Utility: Mobile Blade Card Link [] Level 2 Utility: Honorable Challenge Card Link [] Neverwinter Noble Utility: Take Heart, Friend! Card Link Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura Card Link [] Paladin Attack: Righteous Radiance Card Link FEATS Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise Level 1: Armor Finesse Level 2:Heavy Armor Agility Level 4: Squire of Righteousness ITEMS Dagger x3 Adventurer's Kit Aecris Black Iron Scale Mail +1 Horned Helm (Heroic Tier) Holy Symbol of Bahamut 1 Opal 73g 145s 50c
Here's my hope:

I hope that when I buy a D&D adventure module and go to unlock the online content for it using my D&DI account, I will have easy access to all the V-Minis I need for that adventure.

Either through automatically receiving a "package" of V-Minis or getting a discount on purchasing an "adventure pack" of V-Minis.

That's my hope, anyway.

I hope this is done as well, even if the minis can only be utilized with the particular adventure they are a part of. I hope this is done for Dungeon adventures as well, especially since it's already planned to provide maps for these adventures pre-built.
I hope this is done as well, even if the minis can only be utilized with the particular adventure they are a part of. I hope this is done for Dungeon adventures as well, especially since it's already planned to provide maps for these adventures pre-built.

Also, I hope that there will be support for third party content. Pathfinder stuff is great.

In addition, the tabletop seems to be system agnostic. If this is the case, I could use it for Star Wars (Saga, D20, D6 even), or even something like Savage Worlds and use third party content from those vendors or community.
I sincerely hope your all wrong, and wish people would stop kissing up to WotC by trying to covertly promote this "Purchase V-Mini's" travesty.

I've said it once, I'll say it a hundred times if need be: The community is more than capable of out doing any base artwork that is provided, if providing the miniature visualization for the Game Table is so costly that it can not be part of the bundle then hand the tools to the community. The community will do it, for free.

If WotC wants to create a "V-Mini's The Gathering Online" separately, more power to them. Dungeon's and Dragons IS NOT A TRADING [Card/Mini/Coin/BottleCap/Stamp] GAME.

Now I do hope that adventure modules, campaign settings and similar products produced by WotC and 3rd parties include visualizations for specific characters, props, armors, weapons etc... to add to the library available and for use specifically with their game.

How would they possibly make their visuals only usable with a particular adventure? Or have people here forgoten again that the GAME TABLE DOES NOT ADJUCATE RULES IT IS ONLY A VISUALIZER.
I sincerely hope your all wrong, and wish people would stop kissing up to WotC by trying to covertly promote this "Purchase V-Mini's" travesty.

I don't want them to charge for virtual minis either, but the most recent information released indicates that it will be a reality. Hence, I'm basing my requests on that reality.

I've said it once, I'll say it a hundred times if need be: The community is more than capable of out doing any base artwork that is provided, if providing the miniature visualization for the Game Table is so costly that it can not be part of the bundle then hand the tools to the community. The community will do it, for free.

They said they would look into this. We just really haven't received any information on the issue after that point.

How would they possibly make their visuals only usable with a particular adventure? Or have people here forgoten again that the GAME TABLE DOES NOT ADJUCATE RULES IT IS ONLY A VISUALIZER.

That would be relatively easy, from a programming perspective. Rather than add the specific content to the Insider account, they could include it in a single, pre-made adventure file that would allow the public to utilize them for that adventure only. They would not be available for custom games as a result.
In regards to what is or isn't going to happen or is/isn't a reality: The reality is going to be they will loose support for their online product/service that they are expecting in customer base from all of those D&D gamers who dislike (or worse) 'collect and trade" or any "Buy random packs" games.

There may be a larger number of their customers who see nothing wrong with the MTG pricing structure and game, including it's already existing online counterpart. The D&D Gamers and the MTG (or other assorted similar products) Gamers are not the same audience, sure there is likely some over lap, however even within the table top audiance there are Warhammer players who would never play D&D and vise versa, or those that will play Ravenloft but not Darksun, or Farun but not Forgotten Realms...

Assuming that everyone who is interested in your widely diverse products all have similar interest or are interested in all of your products or styles of pay is, well a major assumption. It just isn't good marketing to take one pricing scheme from a wildly different (if esthetically similar) product and try to rubber stamp it over the rest of your products just because the money flows well from it. The consumer groups are different and to try to treat them all the same is frankly insulting.

Adventure file? As in a pre-created set of maps from that adventure?

Do you really thing this kind of limitation is in any way a good idea? That would be like WotC handing down a rule that said it was completely illegal in game terms to use magical items from one campaign setting in another campaign setting.
Adventure file? As in a pre-created set of maps from that adventure?

Do you really thing this kind of limitation is in any way a good idea? That would be like WotC handing down a rule that said it was completely illegal in game terms to use magical items from one campaign setting in another campaign setting.

I think this is the part you meant for me. Yup, that's what I meant, and no, I don't think it's a good idea. But considering that they are likely to charge for virtual miniatures I see it as an acceptable, if not necessary, consideration.

As I mentioned, I don't like the idea of paying for virtual miniatures. I made my opinion on the issue clear when it was appropriate. I currently don't purchase purely electronic products, and I likely won't purchase these miniatures, either. That said, I'm not insulted that they decided to go with such a business model. They had to weigh the possible outcomes, and decide what was best for them. It's very likely there will be a sustainable market for this product line, and I imagine it will prove successful.

Much of your complaint regarding the issue is off topic for this thread, and likely to be overlooked as a result. I would recommend that if you wish this message to be received by WotC, this should be posted in a more appropriate topic, either already in existence or started by you.
Well, I apologize for going off topic for the thread, that was not my intent. I think I've just been fighting this fight to long at this point, again I apologize.

In regards to the original post: I too hope that modules and campaign settings come with custom related content to be used in the game table.
In regards to what is or isn't going to happen or is/isn't a reality: The reality is going to be they will loose support for their online product/service that they are expecting in customer base from all of those D&D gamers who dislike (or worse) 'collect and trade" or any "Buy random packs" games.

It's been confirmed a couple times now that there will *NOT* be random packs, for what its worth.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

It's been confirmed a couple times now that there will *NOT* be random packs, for what its worth.

It will be interesting to see the final decision. If "buying" a v-mini gets me a fully poseable model that I can outfit with my choice of equipment and details, and they are reasonably priced, then I see this as being acceptable. If, on the other hand, there are 16 different Kobolds in static gear and poses, and each one has to be purchased individually, that would be what I see as worst case scenario.

Honestly, I'm really excited about the entire idea of 4e, DDI, and everything. It's really rare to find a game system that is actually designed to fully integrate all the myriad options from the ground up, and I'm hoping they price things such that it will be a success. Such a success will hopefully draw more companies into imitation, and we the gamers will end up with better designed and integrated games to play.
It will be interesting to see the final decision. If "buying" a v-mini gets me a fully poseable model that I can outfit with my choice of equipment and details, and they are reasonably priced, then I see this as being acceptable. If, on the other hand, there are 16 different Kobolds in static gear and poses, and each one has to be purchased individually, that would be what I see as worst case scenario.

Honestly, I'm really excited about the entire idea of 4e, DDI, and everything. It's really rare to find a game system that is actually designed to fully integrate all the myriad options from the ground up, and I'm hoping they price things such that it will be a success. Such a success will hopefully draw more companies into imitation, and we the gamers will end up with better designed and integrated games to play.

While I don't "need" my NPCs to be as customizable as the PCs, I agree. I'd like to be able to customize them at least a little (skintone, equipment, and at least a couple poses).

However, it's more important, to me, that I be able to buy a mini (kobold, to borrow your example) and to then clone that mini a few times at the game table. I don't want to be pressed into purchasing 16 kobolds to run a small warband.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Let the community create mini's. If they don't support fan made mini's, I doubt I will be able to stomach using the V-table top.
Let the community create mini's. If they don't support fan made mini's, I doubt I will be able to stomach using the V-table top.

If they don't support fan made minis they're foolish. Someone above mentioned "The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion". I think that game owes its longevity more to the fans and fan-made content than anything else. The truth is, fans can make minis. They want to make minis. WotC doesn't have to pay fans to make minis. They just will. Granted, WotC can't really make any money on fan made minis, but they can still make money on their OWN minis if they're any good.

Allowing fans to make their own minis and tiles will greatly add to the popularity and longevity of WotC's products. Since people are already paying 10-15 dollars a month just to play, I don't think having some minis available for the public BY the public will break the bank. In fact, I think people will pay for the gaming table LONGER if this sort of thing is offered.

I, for one, am with you. If I can't control my own minis I'll find an online gaming table that can.
Here's my hope:

I hope that when I buy a D&D adventure module and go to unlock the online content for it using my D&DI account, I will have easy access to all the V-Minis I need for that adventure.

Either through automatically receiving a "package" of V-Minis or getting a discount on purchasing an "adventure pack" of V-Minis.

That's my hope, anyway.

Looks like you get your wish (maybe) according to this video from Gamer_Zer0's blog http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.youtube.com/v/v4OFQt3aQTo

It says that there will be E-Adventures that come prepackaged with everything you need for the game table, maps, v-minis, etc. Now it doesn't specifically say that the physical adventures you buy can be unlocked like this but I don't see why they couldn't or wouldn't.
The microtransactions is what I hate about the new DDI model. Having official miniatures and tiles is what your subscription should cover. I mean what else does ther service offer that you cant get elsewhere for free?

Rules database?

Indexers will have similar services on the net for free.

Self Calculating Character sheets?

These also will be on the net for free (unless wizards no longer gives customers the right to print or reporduce the character sheets, but that would be a very poor business decision).

Character Visualizer?

This goes with the minis in my mind. Its like having your own official mini. I think the current subcription model covers this well. and this feature is fairly useless if you dont have any monster minis for your avatar mini to do battle with.

Dungeon and Dragon magazines.

They have been putting this stuff on the website for years for free, now you have to pay for it. Sure it costs less that buying the mags in the news stand, but in the news stand I have the option of not buying it if the material sucks. And it ought to cost a lot less than news stand prices as there are zero printing and distribution costs. In a subscription environment, you get it every month, if it sucks, thats your problem. Guess the free articles on the website will go the way of the dodo, as they will now be filling up your paid subscriptions.

Table top game app?

There are several solutions for this on the internet already that are free.

So for my 15 bucks a month I get the articles that I used to get for free on Wizards website, and several other services that I could get elsewhere for free. Im not seeing the value built into this package.

And IMO the miniatures is where they could have added that value. It would be pretty badass to have a set of ALL of the D&D minis to use in your virtual games. That is something that isnt offered elsewhere. I mean we are already coughing up 40 bucks a pop for rulebooks. We already have real D&D minis that we paid for. Now we have to buy them again to use them in a virtual able that we are paying monthly to use?

If you take the this subscription model and compare it to other online subscriptions (and im going to use MMORPGS here as it is a the favortie comparison to 4e right now by the folks who dont like 4e). It would be like me paying an online subscription for an MMO and then having to pay for the creatures I fight and the dungeons I enter on top of my monthly subscription. Do you think WoW would be so popular if you had to buy mobs to fight individually?

Dont get me wrong, I like the 4e rules ive seen and I am looking forward to playing the game. But I wont pay 10-15 additional dollars a month for a character visualizer and a bunch of other services I have been getting for free, or can get for free elsewhere. WotC needs to strongly look at the services offered in this package and compare them to what else is already out there and available for free. Either do subscription based content and give it all to us as part of a subscription or do microtransaction and let us choose piecemeal what we want. They will make more money with a subscription for sure. But to ask me to pay that subscription and then ON TOP of that price pay for the 3d image of a miniature to use with my subscription is for lack of a better word: insulting. Its like selling a Monopoly game and making people pay real money for the houses and hotels.

It would be different if it was an MMO type game based on randomly packaged minis. If that is thier goal then they should make a similar service to MTGO for consumers that are interested in buying randomly packaged minis and competing. Im sure it would be about as popular as MTGO. But dont just attack your customers wallets for extra cash just to make them be able to enjoy a service they are already paying a subscription to use.

I mean seriously, MTGO doesnt even have a subscription fee to play! It pays for itself with microtransactions. I wonder if all the players who play there would still do so if you started charging them 10-15 dollars more a month just to get the updates and strategies that you currently put on the MTG site for free, and offered them a designer to have a wizard avatar for thier mage. Im guessing that MTGO would lose a large portion of thier audience if they did that.

Microtransaction;Virtual Economy based pricing structure= sound business plan

Subscription based pricing structure= sound business plan

Subscription based pricing plan with microtransactions piled on top (for the only thing on the virtual gaming table product that sets it apart from its free competition)= Highway Robbery, that I think will ultimately keep your userbase from using (and in turn payinging for) your digital services. In other words, a very poor business plan.
Rules database?

Indexers will have similar services on the net for free.

I won't bother debating the other points in your post (some of which I find valid) but this part caught my attention. could you point to a site on the net right now that has every rule/feat/spell/whatever for 3.5 in a searchable database for free? The SRD only covers some of them, most of the others aren't available due to copyrights.

I've seen indexes for feats and such that point out what book the rule/feat/etc is in but I haven't seen any that actually print the rule for you which is what you get when you pay for the subscription price. You are able to use the rules database for free in this manner (from what I've heard)
I use

http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf

It has the feats broken up by catagory,class,race, and by the class feature it enhances. It has a descritpion of the feats mechanics (not a direct reprint of the feat as that would violate copyright laws), and it has a a book and page reference number (or dragon magazine number and page number) so you can find the feat in your actuall books.

There indexes like this for every feature of 3.5 from prestige classes on down to magical items. And there are several different indexes up on the interwebs, from various sources. They are very grey area in my opinion. But they do exsist, and they will exsist for 4e. My group collectively owns about 2 copies of every 2nd ed- 3.5 rulebook, and the indexes are very handy.

And they dont have a subscription fee.
nice site. I knew about it already though and like you said it's not a direct reprint of the feat. And I'm sure there are some that aren't listed. What WotC is proposing is a comprehensive one stop shopping for ANY feat/rule/power/spell in a database format that utilizes dropdown menues and filters to find the feats you need/want. True sites like the one you mentioned can give you a good bit of the information but you have to spend a lot more time looking for it. I still think the rules database is going to be the selling point for a lot of people.

Also about the Game Table; while there are other virtual tabletop programs out there, this one seems more visually appealing. Yeah graphics aren't everything and they certainly aren't required for a DnD game but it's still nice to have em. The 3d aspect is what grabbed my attention and has kept it since GenCon.

Individually the parts of DDI that are offered aren't worth the subscription, but added all up I think it's a fair price for the bundle.
First off, thanks for the pleasant tone of your arguement

nice site. I knew about it already though and like you said it's not a direct reprint of the feat. And I'm sure there are some that aren't listed. What WotC is proposing is a comprehensive one stop shopping for ANY feat/rule/power/spell in a database format that utilizes dropdown menues and filters to find the feats you need/want. True sites like the one you mentioned can give you a good bit of the information but you have to spend a lot more time looking for it. I still think the rules database is going to be the selling point for a lot of people.

Aye, with the link I posted some of the feats are omitted (there is a list at the end of the table of contents) and it will be updated very slowly. But it is also a free page to visit. While I cant make a direct comparison to the rules database that Wizards will offer as I have not personally gotten a chance to sit down with it. Its not really a selling point for me as it is information I can get elsewhere (either fomr the books themselves or elsewhere on the internet for free) so its actual value to me as a consumer is drastically degraded.

Its not that it wouldnt be handy, as im sure it will be. Hell, even E-tools was handy (yes my group bought them and strruggled through that product to find some value to add to our games) in some ways. But as far as functionality, it is very similar in concept to free services that already exsist.

Also about the Game Table; while there are other virtual tabletop programs out there, this one seems more visually appealing. Yeah graphics aren't everything and they certainly aren't required for a DnD game but it's still nice to have em. The 3d aspect is what grabbed my attention and has kept it since GenCon.

I like the way the software looks, its not everything I would want in a virtual tabletop but its certainly a step in the right direction. My gripe isnt the software, its the pricing models ascociated with this portion of thier package.

This virtual table top is the star of the DDI initiative. Without this feature there is no reason for a gaming group to have more than a single subscription, if any at all, and a subscription for a product that will require further purchases on top of to work, just seems like a rip-off.I think the virtual table top product should have all of the tiles printed to date in it, and pieces for all of the traps detailed in the 4e DMG, and v-minis for every monster in the new Monster manual for 4e, at no additional cost as those are the books that the starting 4e DM will be using to make his dungeons with the v-table.

As far as adding new content I think subscribers to the service should get occasional v-table only e-adventures using the tiles and monsters from the core books at no additional cost. This could add value to the Dungeon and Dragon virtual subscriptions. Getting a few new tiles and or minis each month corresponding with the release of those magazines is chock full of win.

When you buy a new printed book you should be able to get some tiles and minis to use the content from the book on the virtual table. I know Wizards said they were not going to do unlockable content with the rules database, but this is an entirely different application of the concept, and it would add value to both the DDI subscripion AND the purchase of the printed material. Everyone wins

Now that being said, if WotC wanted to sell prestige e-content like big adventures, or really cool encounters, or unique mobs not appearing in printed material on top of that, and give us an option to buy that virtual table content additionally. I dont have an issue with that. But having to come out of pocket from the rip just to be able to functionally use something im paying MMO subscription prices for seems inane.

4E is supposed to be about options and telling the players yes. The only option the current v-table has is to buy everything and pay for it twice.

And yes as a whole the DDI experience could be worth a monthly subscription, but with like services available for free for most of its functions and the one thing that truely seperates it from the free services costing extra on top of the subscription. As a consumer, I have to ask myself what does my subscription fee pay for that I cant get anywhere else.

Assuming everyone in my group bought a subscription to DDI, that would be 80$ a month (assuming we all signed up for a year at a time). That money could buy 2-3 soruce books a month, or new mats, markers, printouts, miniatures, or junkfood that would all greatly add value to our gaming session.

Why should we invest that money in a service that really doesnt net us anything we couldnt get elsewhere for free? Heck, we even all have laptops and could pull of the everyone operate from the laptop kind of game. But it just wouldnt be worth it. Everytime we switched campaigns the new Dm would have to buy more minis just to be able to play. Sure we could use the tokens, but then again we could also use a free services tokens, or our actual real world minis and keep our 80 bucks.

Hobbys cost money, and im willing to spend my money on valueable additions to any hobby I have. But I will take the cheapest and most effective option, unless a particular service has a selling point that is strong or unique. DDI's strong and unique aspect is the v-table fully loaded with actuall D&D minis. Which you dont get for the subscription price. Which leaves the service looking pretty shabby.
I use

http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf

It has the feats broken up by catagory,class,race, and by the class feature it enhances. It has a descritpion of the feats mechanics (not a direct reprint of the feat as that would violate copyright laws), and it has a a book and page reference number (or dragon magazine number and page number) so you can find the feat in your actuall books.

There indexes like this for every feature of 3.5 from prestige classes on down to magical items. And there are several different indexes up on the interwebs, from various sources. They are very grey area in my opinion. But they do exsist, and they will exsist for 4e. My group collectively owns about 2 copies of every 2nd ed- 3.5 rulebook, and the indexes are very handy.

And they dont have a subscription fee.

From what has been described, the rules database will have a lot more functionality than a "list".

I don't want a list of feats. I just want to make a character, NPC, or monster and be able to put the relevant information into a stat block without sifting through 199 pages of a pdf. Those lists aren't going to distill down to just what you want. The lists still make you flip through the pages and transcribe information.

My experience with 3rd edition and free online tools is that the interfaces are clunky, have out of date information, and the data bases are bugged six ways to Sunday but you can't really complain because its "free".

We're getting a ten day free trial of DDI. That is the point where I'll decide if it is worth $9.95 a month.
Crystalkeep has had to omit lots of vital rule information to keep itself from violating copyright; if you're using the site alone, you're usually not using the game options correctly. This won't be a problem with Insider's database.
First off, thanks for the pleasant tone of your arguement

Your welcome. I've always felt there's no reason to be insulting or rude with someone just because they disagree with you. Especially over something like this which obviously won't appeal to everyone.

Aye, with the link I posted some of the feats are omitted (there is a list at the end of the table of contents) and it will be updated very slowly. But it is also a free page to visit. While I cant make a direct comparison to the rules database that Wizards will offer as I have not personally gotten a chance to sit down with it. Its not really a selling point for me as it is information I can get elsewhere (either fomr the books themselves or elsewhere on the internet for free) so its actual value to me as a consumer is drastically degraded.

Its not that it wouldnt be handy, as im sure it will be. Hell, even E-tools was handy (yes my group bought them and strruggled through that product to find some value to add to our games) in some ways. But as far as functionality, it is very similar in concept to free services that already exsist.



I like the way the software looks, its not everything I would want in a virtual tabletop but its certainly a step in the right direction. My gripe isnt the software, its the pricing models ascociated with this portion of thier package.

This virtual table top is the star of the DDI initiative. Without this feature there is no reason for a gaming group to have more than a single subscription, if any at all, and a subscription for a product that will require further purchases on top of to work, just seems like a rip-off.I think the virtual table top product should have all of the tiles printed to date in it, and pieces for all of the traps detailed in the 4e DMG, and v-minis for every monster in the new Monster manual for 4e, at no additional cost as those are the books that the starting 4e DM will be using to make his dungeons with the v-table.

As far as adding new content I think subscribers to the service should get occasional v-table only e-adventures using the tiles and monsters from the core books at no additional cost. This could add value to the Dungeon and Dragon virtual subscriptions. Getting a few new tiles and or minis each month corresponding with the release of those magazines is chock full of win.

When you buy a new printed book you should be able to get some tiles and minis to use the content from the book on the virtual table. I know Wizards said they were not going to do unlockable content with the rules database, but this is an entirely different application of the concept, and it would add value to both the DDI subscripion AND the purchase of the printed material. Everyone wins

Now that being said, if WotC wanted to sell prestige e-content like big adventures, or really cool encounters, or unique mobs not appearing in printed material on top of that, and give us an option to buy that virtual table content additionally. I dont have an issue with that. But having to come out of pocket from the rip just to be able to functionally use something im paying MMO subscription prices for seems inane.

4E is supposed to be about options and telling the players yes. The only option the current v-table has is to buy everything and pay for it twice.

And yes as a whole the DDI experience could be worth a monthly subscription, but with like services available for free for most of its functions and the one thing that truely seperates it from the free services costing extra on top of the subscription. As a consumer, I have to ask myself what does my subscription fee pay for that I cant get anywhere else.

Assuming everyone in my group bought a subscription to DDI, that would be 80$ a month (assuming we all signed up for a year at a time). That money could buy 2-3 soruce books a month, or new mats, markers, printouts, miniatures, or junkfood that would all greatly add value to our gaming session.

Why should we invest that money in a service that really doesnt net us anything we couldnt get elsewhere for free? Heck, we even all have laptops and could pull of the everyone operate from the laptop kind of game. But it just wouldnt be worth it. Everytime we switched campaigns the new Dm would have to buy more minis just to be able to play. Sure we could use the tokens, but then again we could also use a free services tokens, or our actual real world minis and keep our 80 bucks.

Hobbys cost money, and im willing to spend my money on valueable additions to any hobby I have. But I will take the cheapest and most effective option, unless a particular service has a selling point that is strong or unique. DDI's strong and unique aspect is the v-table fully loaded with actuall D&D minis. Which you dont get for the subscription price. Which leaves the service looking pretty shabby.

True from what it sounds like the game table probably isn't for you. It seems like you have a game group already that is capable of meeting in a physical location on a regular basis. Which is great. The game table isn't really for things like that though I believe it can be used that way.

The best thing for the game table in a situation like what you're describing is for one person to have an account and everyone play around a single computer monitor. Someone asked about something like that, I think, and one of the designers responded that that would work.

The situation that was described in the question was something like this;
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I have TV that I can display my computer screen on, I would like to use my one account to create the dungeon, and the minis, and display it on the TV during my regular game. Can the one account control multiple minis.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
In a situation like that you would only need one account to make the map and store the minis etc then one person move the minis around each turn. No need for each player to have an account in that case.

Now what my situation is, and why I'll enjoy the game table; I have a small group (3 other people) that I could game with but we always have trouble getting together at the same time since we live fairly well separated. But with the game table we'll have it a lot easier. I might even be able to talk some friends that I play D&D online with (the MMORPG one) to join in, and they live in another country.
Aye I imagine that some of my friends who love pretty far away from me would be very interested in coughing up the dough to do some D&D. I have a friend in the OZ, another in KY, and another in NY, and another in ND. We get together once a month on one of the free tabletop services (using a private Vent that I run. Because none of those services have a VOIP option thats worth mentioning) for some oldschool Adv. 2nd AD&D. We have been using free services for this campaign for about 5 years (with an attempted real world get together attempted annualy) So I will never bash the idea of a v-table. I know the concept works.

And im not going to argue about WotCs v-table anymore (allthough I did have a good time doing it ). I will say again that I think its not only a bad business option to charge extra for all of the skins to the miniatures, but irresponsible, and rude to the customer.

As for the other features of the subscription? Im sure we will find out in time. I know that someone in my weekly group (well actually I know exactly who it will be) will buy the subscription idea hook, line, and sinker. Wizards could try to sell painted rocks for $19.95 ea, and tell customers that they were in the hands of real D&D designers and he would buy them. I love the guy, but he has too much money(which is just fine when its his turn to buy snacks). So im sure ill get to see the full evolution of DDI spread out before my eyes. If they ever at any point loose the microtransactions for the very skins that make it an appealling product (or go only to them and loose the subscription), or if the other features on it are so great that they warrant the 10-15 bucks a month,then I'm sure I will pick it up.

I'm greatly looking forward to actually playing 4e. Ive got a compaign that I've been doing the story for, for well over a year, and I have some pretty cool(well at least I think they are cool, my players would agree with me about 60% of the time, and that is only if their characters didint die in the effort.) adventures that are waiting for some more rules to be statted. I think a lot of the changes are fabulous, and those that im not liking (which arent really worth griping on a public forum about, as those things I dont like, I can just not use in my games) arent large enough to turn down that anticipation.

But as much as I enjoy chatting on the forums, I gotta go shower and hygeine myself for my real D&D group that kicks off in about 90 minutes with our ritualistic breakfast out. A new campaign is actually starting today, run by one of our more stoic players who never really runs for the group. Hes running a module (which is cool).I cant remember what its called, I wanna say Barrow King or something like that, its a trilogy though. And hes done a lot of work (our group has 7 attendning players so ever module encounter will have to be basically doubled) to get it ready, so im pretty excited.

Only problem is he made me play a bard (or rather , he asked me very nicely, but one of the conditions I had for playing the bard was that I was allowed to tell the rest of the group he forced me to, so they would think him a tyrant). I dont particularly like the class, but im giving it a go. So Ive made a stage performing magician bard who can play the violin, with the full intent of antagonizing my fellow players (and DM) in an anecdotal way. Ive even managed to get excited about playing the character. But none the less, a new adventure start is always fun.

So while its been a pleasure chatting with you folks over the last few days, im off. If I find anything new worth mentioning on the who v-mini pay for it twice problem with the service, ill be sure to post it here. You folks have a great day.
Looks like you get your wish (maybe) according to this video from Gamer_Zer0's blog http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.youtube.com/v/v4OFQt3aQTo

It says that there will be E-Adventures that come prepackaged with everything you need for the game table, maps, v-minis, etc. Now it doesn't specifically say that the physical adventures you buy can be unlocked like this but I don't see why they couldn't or wouldn't.

Thanks for that info, it's great to hear that there will be e-dventures.

But my concern is this: If I buy, say, Keep on the Shadowfell and want to run it using the virtual table, will I have to recreate all the maps myself or will I be able to just enter a code and have them premade?

Fairbanks
Fairbanks, level 5 Human, Slayer (Multiclass: Cavalier) Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort Background: Blademaster (Acrobatics class skill) Theme: Neverwinter Noble FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 18, CON 10, DEX 17, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 13 STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 16, CON 10, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 12 AC: 20 Fort: 19 Ref: 16 Will: 14 HP: 49/49 Surges: 6/9 Surge Value: 10 [X] Action Point [] Second Wind TRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +10, Athletics +11, Diplomacy +8, Endurance +7, Intimidate +8 UNTRAINED SKILLS Arcana +2, Bluff +3, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, History +2, Insight +2, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +2, Stealth +5, Streetwise +3, Thievery +5 POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Card Link Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Card Link [] Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort Card Link [X] [X] Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike Card Link [X] Fighter Utility: Duelist's Assault Card Link [] Fighter Utility: Mobile Blade Card Link [] Level 2 Utility: Honorable Challenge Card Link [] Neverwinter Noble Utility: Take Heart, Friend! Card Link Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura Card Link [] Paladin Attack: Righteous Radiance Card Link FEATS Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise Level 1: Armor Finesse Level 2:Heavy Armor Agility Level 4: Squire of Righteousness ITEMS Dagger x3 Adventurer's Kit Aecris Black Iron Scale Mail +1 Horned Helm (Heroic Tier) Holy Symbol of Bahamut 1 Opal 73g 145s 50c
It sounded like you'd acquire the pre-made adventure in digital format, with all the requisite maps, tiles, and minis included.

How you'll acquire that (now that codes for books are dead) is up in the air. I'm guessing it'll be a microtransaction (sub-$5 purchase) and that you'll "own" the materials of that module from then on.

That's just my opinion, however.

In related news - there's been talk that RPGA modules will be designed with the DM Tools, so that you can get online versions of RPGA modules to run pre-made on the Game Table.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Here's a question: Will they do a digital version of dungeon adventures, complete with miniatures and the like?
In related news - there's been talk that RPGA modules will be designed with the DM Tools, so that you can get online versions of RPGA modules to run pre-made on the Game Table.

I've been hoping for this exact thing. I have two groups. The first is local and meets at my house. The second is with a group of friends I met online and we play mostly voip Xen'drik Expeditions Covenant of Light games. We make an attempt at using OpenRPG to play but I have very little time to spend making maps and of course cannot ask some that I DM for to do it because it would spoil the game and invalidate the table. Also I'm hoping for improved support. It annoys me that I cannot play core Xen'drik or local Bandit Kingdom games online.
I've been hoping for this exact thing. I have two groups. The first is local and meets at my house. The second is with a group of friends I met online and we play mostly voip Xen'drik Expeditions Covenant of Light games. We make an attempt at using OpenRPG to play but I have very little time to spend making maps and of course cannot ask some that I DM for to do it because it would spoil the game and invalidate the table. Also I'm hoping for improved support. It annoys me that I cannot play core Xen'drik or local Bandit Kingdom games online.

Then you'll (possibly) also be glad to know that published modules are intended to be available online as well. (Though, I personally suspect that in that case you'll have to "buy" the virtual version of the module, though it should then be yours to keep I'd think).
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Also I'm hoping for improved support. It annoys me that I cannot play core Xen'drik or local Bandit Kingdom games online.

You'll be able to play any Living Forgotten Realms (LFR) module regardless of your location. Online, at a convention, or anywhere else - you can play any LFR module anywhere.
Cool what is your source on this? I'd love to believe it but it is hard for me to after asking about this many times on the RPGA boards about the current editions and getting ignored every time.
Chris Tulach said as much at the GenCon '07 member's meeting.

I dunno that I've seen it in print anywhere beyond that.

Someone else may have.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

I also believe that it was mentioned in either the D&D podcasts, or in the XP you tube presentations that all of the advetures at the XP con were made using tiles in the table and that all of the 4e RPGA stuff would be the same.

But I could be worng,

malkav
I won't bother debating the other points in your post (some of which I find valid) but this part caught my attention. could you point to a site on the net right now that has every rule/feat/spell/whatever for 3.5 in a searchable database for free? The SRD only covers some of them, most of the others aren't available due to copyrights.

I've seen indexes for feats and such that point out what book the rule/feat/etc is in but I haven't seen any that actually print the rule for you which is what you get when you pay for the subscription price. You are able to use the rules database for free in this manner (from what I've heard)

I almost forgot about this one. This is essentially an autofilling excel sheet that works of a huge index of all of the rules of 3.5 formulated into excel.
(just thinking about all of the excel formulas used to make this file makes my head spin) The files are of such high quality that I would have gladly paid a one time price to buy the sheets. But they are free. Take a look at the one called Heroforge. I think you will be impressed.

(note: you need microsoft excel 2000 or greater or a verion of openoffice that supports files of that type to use heroforge)

Linkage
Heroforge link

It includes every feat/option available in all of the books listed in the options tab of the file (which everything pretty much up to and including complete champion). It will even tell you what prestige classes you qualify for. The feats tell you exactly what they do. Now you cant just print out a rulebook becaquse that would be copyright infringement. But pretty much every rule you would need to make a character is included. The only downside being you can break the excel sheet if you type things in the wrong spot (though most of the sheet is pull down). But it comes with instructions :0

but dont take my word for it. Go have a look. There are many community projects like this that are available for free.

Be good

malkav