Giving WoTC Feedback on the monthly fee

182 posts / 0 new
Last post
It's been my impression in reading these boards that people have some issues with the proposed fee being all inclusive (for gametable, character creator, dm's kit, dungeon, and dragon) but also requiring extra charges for access to the e-books or to allow players to join gametable on an as needed basis for a "nominal fee".

I'm writing this post to hopefully consolidate some of the thoughts on the matter. These are my impressions:

1. People want to be able to subscribe to parts of insider as they use them:
e.g. I want to buy dungeon and dragon but not the rest of the stuff.

2. People don't want to pay extra to gain access to support for a book they already bought.

What I don't understand is the rationale for "forcing" us to buy all or none of the insider package, but "allowing" us to choose to upgrade web access for books we pay for. It seems that, for consistency's sake alone, it should be one way or the other.
1. People want to be able to subscribe to parts of insider as they use them:
e.g. I want to buy dungeon and dragon but not the rest of the stuff.

Same here. I want D&D Insider without the apps. My group will not be able to use them most likely, and I don't want to have to pay for them. I don't want to feel like I have to make a choice between getting ripped off or getting shut out of the content I care about.

'Cause, frankly, I can run and play D&D with just what's in the book if that's the case. I read Dragon & Dungeon for amusement -- not because it's essential to play. If have to subsidize an online experience that I can't participate in, then I'm out.

2. People don't want to pay extra to gain access to support for a book they already bought.

I don't mind this part so much. It's Value-Added Content. Plus, I understand their rationale even if trying to do anything about piracy is a choice between alienating your paying customers and futile half-measures.
Plus, I understand their rationale even if trying to do anything about piracy is a choice between alienating your paying customers and futile half-measures.

A choice? Heck, no - many seem to manage to do both simultaneously.

Back on-topic, though, I have to put in a 'me, too'. Rented software that is available only on the sufferance of the server owner I have no wish to pay for or use, but Dungeon and Dragon have long had a place in my collection and PDF copies of books I increasingly find very handy.
======= Balesir
For Access to D&D insider and the Game Table and the DM's tools and Character Creator and PDF copies of the books I've already bought...

10$/month sounds very payable

20$/month would be about as high as I would go.
What about offering a FLAT rate/ life time cost, several on-line game are now offering this instead of monthly fees, I believe that this type of option would be nice for people who are already life time gamers. A one time fee instead of monthly charges may have a larger appeal.
Just to be clear, paying a regular subscription for regular articles, updates to software, pdf versions of books I own in hardcopy etc. is something I don't mind in the least. Having all that content (that I may be relying upon for the smooth operation of my game) accessible only as vapourware, on-line, that may evaporate at the flick of a corporate policy switch - that I mind.
======= Balesir
The only thing I have any interest in would be an NPC generator. If I could pay for only that, I'd do it. The rest of it? meh
I think they need to offer layered subscriptions and pay-per-use offerings. I would also like to see a "Founders" type of offer where a one time fee of (I don't know $500 sound good) something would give full access to the DDI forever.

I do not like the idea of the nominal fee to access updates or errata for a book I have already purchased. For the PDF errata they have now to be of any value you need the books. This is what I expected when I first saw you would have a special code in the book you purchased. I am not sure if this special code will be used for only errata but if not then what did they leave out of the book I just purchased?!? If this code is for access to the entire contents of a book then should just eat that cost. Piracy is part of doing business. I am sure they have already included in the prices of every book a certain increase to cover an amount of photo-copy and other such illegalities. Why should we have to pay again.
I think they need to offer layered subscriptions and pay-per-use offerings. I would also like to see a "Founders" type of offer where a one time fee of (I don't know $500 sound good) something would give full access to the DDI forever.

I do not like the idea of the nominal fee to access updates or errata for a book I have already purchased. For the PDF errata they have now to be of any value you need the books. This is what I expected when I first saw you would have a special code in the book you purchased. I am not sure if this special code will be used for only errata but if not then what did they leave out of the book I just purchased?!? If this code is for access to the entire contents of a book then should just eat that cost. Piracy is part of doing business. I am sure they have already included in the prices of every book a certain increase to cover an amount of photo-copy and other such illegalities. Why should we have to pay again.

The errata will be provided for free. The key and unlock fee is to have an online copy or a digital copy of the ebook on computer. Also it likely will be plugged somehow into game Table. Just for clarity you we not pay for errata in any way, shape or form according to plans as so far announced.
Plans are always subject to change.
The errata will be provided for free. The key and unlock fee is to have an online copy or a digital copy of the ebook on computer. Also it likely will be plugged somehow into game Table. Just for clarity you we not pay for errata in any way, shape or form according to plans as so far announced.

I did understand that to be true and errata should be free.

I have a problem with paying for gaining access to something I already purchased. As I said piracy is already added into the cost of doing business. Why do we pay again?

Now there should be a fee to use a book's database without a 'key code'.
Now there should be a fee to use a book's database without a 'key code'.

Only if it equaled the price of the book minus the price of manufacture.
To me, it seems like the tools are an extra "Perk" for the subscription to the mags online. At least, it is the mindset that I believe the suit at hasbro has.

Really, the inferior programing of an online web browser character generator can't be worth any monthly fee, not even 50 cents. Especially since it isn't even clear that we would be able to save characters on our own computers, having to use an "online character vault" that was limited at one time to 10 slots (which could be 10 different characters, or 10 levels of the same character or...)

no thanks.
Terms you should know...
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
I'm against fees of any kind, but I know that's not a plausible business model. That being said, $5 a month (total) is the absolute most I would ever pay for any online service Wizards could offer -- character creator, DM kit, Dungeon, Dragon, gametable, whatever.
For Access to D&D insider and the Game Table and the DM's tools and Character Creator and PDF copies of the books I've already bought...

10$/month sounds very payable

20$/month would be about as high as I would go.

Dear Pelor(!), how can you be willing to pay so much? None of what they are offering is worth $20 a month, not even close.

The shift to online means WotC is cutting out many sizable middlemen (the publisher, the distributor, the stores, etc.). This means WotC should pass the savings on to us.

Think about it, if the D&DI is sold at $5 per month and WotC is able to get 50,000 continual subscribers, that means WotC is earning $250,000 a month. Now that may not sound like a lot but put that in perspective. $250,000 can pay for 1-4 employee's yearly salaries! Multiply that times 12 (i.e. 1 whole year) and that equals $3,000,000.

Now let's say WotC employs a hundred full time people for their D&D department. If the mean average of their yearly salaries are equal to $83,000 (which is respectable, not great but not horrible) than per year through the D&DI (charging $5 per month) will be able to pay off 36% of their staff's yearly salaries for the equivalent of forcing a few of their employees to write an extra article once a month.

All in all, its a great deal for WotC.

Of course, I suspect there will be more than 50,000 subscriber, that number may even climb as high as 200,000+ people. Note that if they had 200,000 subscribers that paid $5 a month, that would be $1,000,000 in revenue per month. A million dollars times 12 months equals $12,000,000, which is above and beyond the total estimated mean employee salary of $8,300,000.

All in all $5 a month is more than enough, IMO.
Hi..

Totally agree that there should be a tiered payment structure..

Like a "basic" subscription which cover Dragon + Dungeon (say 5 USD a month) and then a "pro" option where you also get the online tools..

Or even better - a multi tiered payment where you even can subscribe to say only Dragon or only Dungeon, and also all of the other features seperately / say each feature for set amount - and then a nice little discount when you choose to buy the full package...

Hope someone from Wizards see this and take these ideas into consideration.. it would benefit them in the end> i.e. a lot of people would not buy the online tools if they dont need them, and would probably not pay 12-15 USD for the whole package if they only want to read Dragon magazine.
Dear Pelor(!), how can you be willing to pay so much? None of what they are offering is worth $20 a month, not even close.

The most expensive thing in the world is convenience.

My Point > Ya’ll don’t really need it.
Ya just want it. Ladies and Gentlemen Ya’ll already got everything Gleemax will offer spread around through things like the Ghost Orbs, and Invisible Castles. I have one of the Excel driven character creators. I have in fact made a character generator once (that Excel one is way better). What you’re missing is all the underage kids; with income disposabling itself out of their parents pockets … remember who is pushing to make the moolah off of this forum. Hasbro … makers of GI Joe and Barbie.

If that unsettles you - the majority of you can / should / will remain simply free forum members.

Now, don’t let that stop you from encouraging the “tiered” or “VIP” membership policy.

I also envision members of websites like Enworld, or long time forum posters, Sovereign Stone company members, etc, etc, etc – People like myself (wink) and others that contribute to the “gaming industry” (read go to conventions or tournaments) getting “special pricing” for “jobs well done.” The pricing is set “at goal” not “at you” honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if WotC announces that outstanding forum members get some sort of “year free” and then even “legacy pricing” when the payment ability manifests. The least they could do for all the GMs and Scribes that have slogged posts for these people for so many years.

Really, again the pricings are set at newbies not you old hats.

----
Perhaps that will assuage your rage?
The pricing for this service is not for anything that would be a played enviroment like the Massive Online Role Playing Games like WOW and Everquest. (anyone remember that one?) The gaming table is an extension for the Pen and Paper and is available elsewhere, for free, the online tools (character generator and DM tools) will be slaved to the web page or a America Online type of client (shudder) and the online mags are simply not worth 120 bucks a year to see.

DDi isn't going to fail because of any one thing, it is going to have a hard time being successful because it is not a video game yet using the same pricing model, without any of the play.

The complete abandenment of the mags and yanking of the "Official" character generator along with the Data Sets that went with it (E-Tools) and no replacement except this thing online you have to pay more for and have less, well, it is hard to go into it when you expect it to be pulled out from under you just like the last product they had.

Not getting it. Gonna get the books, and that's it.
Terms you should know...
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
The basis of the monthly fee is just classic marketing accounting.
The research suggests that "demographic" is prepared to pay "x" amount based on their knowledge of persons paying "y" amount for WoW, etc.

They also base this idea on the fact that they would consider "4th edition" to be that will "replace" peoples "online gaming".

It would be easier to have the "software" come as a $100 up front piece of software, much in the same way as any professional application, such as photoshop, paint shop pro etc.

People want to have the entire functionality on their own machine. Alright, server side control is a great way of avoiding piracy but piracy is beaten by having good product, with lots of free upgrades and patches (like a WoW/DDO style client, with all the piracy protection these repeated updates have).

It would be more sensible to have people "buy" expansions online (people already buy books so that will be fine).

Most MMOs could give away their clients for free. This whole online 4th edition game table could be free too. The occasional pop up advert for pizza delivery wouldn't annoy players too much i'm sure.
(cough)

Lets clear the Δαίμονες της ηλιθιότητας here. The market is not us. We are the “base” … we will keep buying the books. Now, Barbie says to GI Joe … “How do we get the next generation in on this” GI Joe replies to Barbie … “Make their parents pay out the nose!”

Seriously folks. You’re already in the fold. Already sold. “Gleemax” is here for the babies and the mommas and the poppas that are scared of stuff that doesn’t come with a money back guarantee. We are down and dirty, playing with dice made of carved wood, drawing character sheets on the back of other character sheets – HARD CORES. I will never buy character sheets. I make them. Usually out of graph paper. So do many of ya’ll.

Gleemax is a mask for us to stop scaring children (and their paying parents) with.

Merry Christmas. :P
Seriously folks. You’re already in the fold. Already sold. “Gleemax” is here for the babies and the mommas and the poppas that are scared of stuff that doesn’t come with a money back guarantee. We are down and dirty, playing with dice made of carved wood, drawing character sheets on the back of other character sheets – HARD CORES. I will never buy character sheets. I make them. Usually out of graph paper. So do many of ya’ll.

Graph paper? Ha! I make mine on blank paper! And my dice are made of cold steel!

Ok, ok... I make them on a printer. You got me.
The shift to online means WotC is cutting out many sizable middlemen (the publisher, the distributor, the stores, etc.). This means WotC should pass the savings on to us.

Not really since their core business is still publishing hardcopy books.
Dear Pelor(!), how can you be willing to pay so much? None of what they are offering is worth $20 a month, not even close.

Yeah, there's a character generator, which by all means should be free, like it was with the 3.0 books.

There's the online gametable which is already a utility you can get for free online. Programs like OpenRPG already do this.

I'm not sure what the DMs' tools are going to be, but I can't figure they're anything special. The DM tools for 3E were so lackluster, I don't really have any faith in them whatsoever.
I'm paying $14.95 a month twice over at the moment for MMOs.
I've cancelled MMO's in the past that have gone over $14.95 a month.

To pay $14.95 a month for DnD Insider, it has to offer the same amount of entertainment or entertainment/utility as an MMO, to be quite honest. If I don't feel like I'm able to use large portions of it (because I haven't additionally purchased virtual miniatures, because players in my group insist on running Linux or Mac OSX, etc.) then DnD Insider will be worth significantly less than that.

At the moment, that is where DnD Insider stands - competing against various MMO's for a second monthly subscription payment. As things stand now, it is not going to dislodge one of my current, active MMO subscriptions.
I whole heartedly agree with the tiered pay structure. I do NOT want to have to subscribe to Dragon and Dungeon. I'm a full time law student so I really don't even have time to game. Fortunately, my gaming group is 4 hours away from where I go to school so I can actually focus. BUT, I would like an occasional weekend/monthly game. Since I don't have time to enjoy Dragon/Dungeon, I'd like to cut that out, cut out the ability to run games, and have access to the character generator, actual game table (for games), and maybe the map editor (but I realize that may be pushing it for a "baseline" account). I would pay $5-$10 for this. I do NOT like the idea of paying $15 a month as an OCCASIONAL PLAYER because of school. Seriously, I really don't have much of a life any more.
I whole heartedly agree with the tiered pay structure. I do NOT want to have to subscribe to Dragon and Dungeon. I'm a full time law student so I really don't even have time to game. Fortunately, my gaming group is 4 hours away from where I go to school so I can actually focus. BUT, I would like an occasional weekend/monthly game. Since I don't have time to enjoy Dragon/Dungeon, I'd like to cut that out, cut out the ability to run games, and have access to the character generator, actual game table (for games), and maybe the map editor (but I realize that may be pushing it for a "baseline" account). I would pay $5-$10 for this. I do NOT like the idea of paying $15 a month as an OCCASIONAL PLAYER because of school. Seriously, I really don't have much of a life any more.

Exactly how i feel. Except im not a law student.

I dont want the crappy magazines, and even if they were good I wouldn't pay money for them. I don't buy physical magazines, why would i want digital ones?

I would be willing to pay a one time 5$ for the character maker, and ill be buying each of the books digitally, so long as i can use them away from the game table and just on my own. Thats really the extent of the digitl stuff that I want.

I would also like to be able to pay for X hours of use of the game table for me and my group, when we are alloff at school and unable to game. I don't want to pay for unlimited times a month for 15$ a month. Ill pay .50$ an hour and play for 18 hours straight, then not play for 3 months straight.

I just wish there was a way for me to use the products I enjoy, and not have all the crap thrown in there. Its like buying a laptop nowadays. You go to the website, tell them to put as little extra crap software on it as possible, and then i spend 3 hours as soon as i get it uninstalling things. If i had the option not to buy them i would have, but i didnt get that chance, and so now i hate using your company but have no other option.

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

Exactly how i feel. Except im not a law student.

I dont want the crappy magazines, and even if they were good I wouldn't pay money for them. I don't buy physical magazines, why would i want digital ones?

I would be willing to pay a one time 5$ for the character maker, and ill be buying each of the books digitally, so long as i can use them away from the game table and just on my own. Thats really the extent of the digitl stuff that I want.

I would also like to be able to pay for X hours of use of the game table for me and my group, when we are alloff at school and unable to game. I don't want to pay for unlimited times a month for 15$ a month. Ill pay .50$ an hour and play for 18 hours straight, then not play for 3 months straight.

I just wish there was a way for me to use the products I enjoy, and not have all the crap thrown in there. Its like buying a laptop nowadays. You go to the website, tell them to put as little extra crap software on it as possible, and then i spend 3 hours as soon as i get it uninstalling things. If i had the option not to buy them i would have, but i didnt get that chance, and so now i hate using your company but have no other option.

One of the other benefits of a tiered system is that you would be able to do like me and go from occasional player to active player (during school breaks). I would happily pay $15-20 a month as an "unlimited account user" but don't want that as a standard fee by any means. Your idea about hourly is interesting but I'm not sure that I like that pay model (would my credit card be on file...all of a sudden I can't help but think about phishing that was SO prevalent when the internet first started becoming mainstream and there were hourly internet service charges). But, $0.50 an hour sounds reasonable. Depending on how things went, I wouldn't be opposed to $1-3 a session (4-6 hours of connectivity- because we do like to break for dinner). That might be an easier pay rate...I don't know. DEFINITELY not a flat fee though. I'm glad to see there are others in agreement. :D
I hate to burst peoples bubbles but, Wotc is like any other company. They are in it for the money. That said for every person that say they won't pay more than 10 dollars a month there is very likely ten who will but if even the number was twice as much a person it for the money would still charge that much.

as a money hungry, greedy person who produces an rpg that we will buy I will look for ways to have your money put into my grubby little hands. It's not about a public service. if they wanted to do a public service they'd knock off 25-50% of the cover price of a book and offer the internet stuff for less than 5 bucks a month.

Then being even more money hungry I would make a program for 3rd edition and have it support other book companies and do a 2nd edition rules set and make you pay out the Butt for retro games.

But thats just me if I were greedy.
I hate to burst peoples bubbles but, Wotc is like any other company. They are in it for the money. That said for every person that say they won't pay more than 10 dollars a month there is very likely ten who will but if even the number was twice as much a person it for the money would still charge that much.

as a money hungry, greedy person who produces an rpg that we will buy I will look for ways to have your money put into my grubby little hands. It's not about a public service. if they wanted to do a public service they'd knock off 25-50% of the cover price of a book and offer the internet stuff for less than 5 bucks a month.

Then being even more money hungry I would make a program for 3rd edition and have it support other book companies and do a 2nd edition rules set and make you pay out the Butt for retro games.

But thats just me if I were greedy.

If WotC wants to make money then a tiered system would be best. There are a lot of people who will not pay $10 a month because they only want one part. I know if they offered just the game table for $5 a month my entire group would bet it. Even if there are free ones out there the official one will probably be easier and have more players on. However, none of them can afford to pay $10 a month. So with me included WotC is out $30 a month from one group because they were hoping they could get $60 a month. I'm sure my group isn't the only ones who feel this way.
I agree entirely.

I'd be willing to pay less than what my old subscriptions cost for dungeon and dragon magazine (assuming the quality of the magazines picks up) but that's it. I don't much want any of the other stuff.

The subs were ~3.25 per month, so $6.50 for two printed magazines.

I'd be willing to pay $4-5 for the pdfs (maybe...again, the content and quality of Dragon in particular needs to be ramped up).

So instead of getting $4-5 a month for a year ($48-$60) by offering me this option, WotC will be getting nothing from me (no way I'm paying the whole $10-15).
Hell, I'ld probably buy the full $10 a month package if the gametable was only $5 a month. I like the magazines and would love to read them, but they aren't worth $10 a month to me. And I wont be able to really use the game table if none of my friends are because they can't afford to pay $10 a month for just a game table. So up your loss from me to $35 a month.

Also The other thing is if you get people subsribing to a $5 a month package they are far more likely to up it to the $10 a month one once they feel they need the other stuff.
It would be easier to have the "software" come as a $100 up front piece of software, much in the same way as any professional application, such as photoshop, paint shop pro etc.

Because that pricing model worked so well with E-Tools?
somewhere on here I did see a post by a dev stating that there will be an ability to purchase the magazines without a DDI subscription. That post did not mention anything other than that intention though.

I agree entirely.

I'd be willing to pay less than what my old subscriptions cost for dungeon and dragon magazine (assuming the quality of the magazines picks up) but that's it. I don't much want any of the other stuff.

The subs were ~3.25 per month, so $6.50 for two printed magazines.

I'd be willing to pay $4-5 for the pdfs (maybe...again, the content and quality of Dragon in particular needs to be ramped up).

So instead of getting $4-5 a month for a year ($48-$60) by offering me this option, WotC will be getting nothing from me (no way I'm paying the whole $10-15).

Because that pricing model worked so well with E-Tools?

Yes, it did. The program itself was suspect, but it was made usable by Code Monkey Publishing and even had a good run with the "Official" Data Sets and such.

The problem was that the program itself was still limited by the backwards programing skills that Fluid did to create E-Tools, before CMP got the contract to fix it. A better program was being devoloped but Wizards pulled the plug on the "Official" program and data sets to replace it with this DDi inferior Web App garbage.

120 dollars a month for an inferior product?

Do I get a rebate for having E-Tools, a program no longer supported or available for anyone else that may join the may group later? Do I get a refund for useless Data Sets that will not be transferable to the new replacement? Do I get anything but broken promises and a wink of an eye, asking that I trust them?

No. To all the questions above, the answer is No.

Why is there confusion on why we are upset with the current change?
Terms you should know...
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
I may be having second (and third and 4th) thoughts on the viability of going to DDi as a subscriber, but I have to say I'm amazed at people's ability to say that the character creator is going to be crap. I mean, It's not even done yet.

To me, I have to look at what I'm actually getter. I'm actually fairly happy with the performance of openRPG, and I haven't seen the virtual tabletop having any more features(and in fact I've seen fewer features) than it does. A character generator integrated with all the new book WotC puts out is definately useful, as is the subscriptions to the magazines, but I'm thinking more and more than I have to agree it is just too much money to be paying monthly.
I may be having second (and third and 4th) thoughts on the viability of going to DDi as a subscriber, but I have to say I'm amazed at people's ability to say that the character creator is going to be crap. I mean, It's not even done yet.

Well, I for one have not said it will be 'crap' - I have said that if it is done as a web app. it will be useless to me. As a GM I like to keep a stable of PCs and NPCs tracked and regularly updated on my CharGen software. Doing this on a web app. that might be whisked away at a moment's notice based on corporate whim is not acceptable to me. The likelihood of such a corporate vault-face by WotC has been amply demonstrated to me by the eTools affair...

There is nothing personal in this - I'm quite sure that Wizards re quite capable of producing a fine application - I'm just saying that they will have to go an extra mile to convince me of their support and continuity policies before I will invest in their DDI applications. Making the CharGen a stand-alone app., for which I pay for ongoing updates, bugfixes, expansions etc. on a subscription basis, would be an excellent move in the right direction.
======= Balesir
$10-15 is way too much. I don't play MMOs because I don't want to pay that much to play a game I've already bought. At most, I would pay $5.

I would rather see a system where you pay based on the services you want to subscribe to. I don't need a character generator, because I rarely play RAW beyond the first few months after an edition's release, so my houserules usually render generators useless. I didn't read Dragon and Dungeon when they were in print, and I don't intend to read them online. I refuse to pay for a pdf version of a book that I have already bought in print.

WotC needn't worry so much about piracy, since I can already go online and download pdf scans of almost any book I want. The fact is, most people (myself included) want the print editions. I might consider buying e-books of books that I expect to get less use out of, but only if I could buy them for significantly less than the printed manual. Again, I don't want to pay for something I already have, so I would only buy pdfs of books that I don't already own.

I would also like for someone with an account to be able to sponsor others, maybe up to 4 or 5 other people. These would essentially be subaccounts that are free, but can only access the gametable. That way as a DM I could logon and create sponsored accounts for any friends that don't have their own subscriptions.

If WotC doesn't change anything though, that's fine. There are other programs out there for online tabletop gaming that I don't have to pay for every month.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
$10-15 is way too much. I don't play MMOs because I don't want to pay that much to play a game I've already bought. At most, I would pay $5.

I would rather see a system where you pay based on the services you want to subscribe to. I don't need a character generator, because I rarely play RAW beyond the first few months after an edition's release, so my houserules usually render generators useless. I didn't read Dragon and Dungeon when they were in print, and I don't intend to read them online. I refuse to pay for a pdf version of a book that I have already bought in print.

I agree, and have heard others call for an "ala carte" option - Let me piecemeal my online subscription - even if the "individual" options are priced a little higher than buying them in the bundle would be.

As for the Character Creator - I seem to recall hearing that it would be customizable to allow for houserules. This was (at best) second-hand however, so take it with a grain of salt.

However, if that works out, it could help you, even with your houserules.

WotC needn't worry so much about piracy, since I can already go online and download pdf scans of almost any book I want. The fact is, most people (myself included) want the print editions. I might consider buying e-books of books that I expect to get less use out of, but only if I could buy them for significantly less than the printed manual. Again, I don't want to pay for something I already have, so I would only buy pdfs of books that I don't already own.

I hate forced-DRM, but I still understand the need for it. IF they don't at least attempt to defend their IP, they stand to lose the rights to it. Discouraging theft, at least a little, can still boost sales, etc. So long as they don't go completely crazy and make the product nearly unuseable.

The one thing I'm liking about the electronic copies is that it's been said they PDFs will be updated with erratta - that adds value to them over the print copies - for me.

I can see myself printing the changed pages and tucking them into my printed book to have the updated/fixed rules on-hand, but still having my book.

I would also like for someone with an account to be able to sponsor others, maybe up to 4 or 5 other people. These would essentially be subaccounts that are free, but can only access the gametable. That way as a DM I could logon and create sponsored accounts for any friends that don't have their own subscriptions.

Ooooh. I like this - though I could understand if WotC wanted to either charge a minor fee $1/month/sub-account OR limiting those "seats" to only be in games the "GM" is running.

If WotC doesn't change anything though, that's fine. There are other programs out there for online tabletop gaming that I don't have to pay for every month.

*nods* I have high hopes for the Game Table - but my group has Fantasy Grounds running just fine if it isn't the Holy Grail we're being promised.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

This is another reason I am sticking with 3.5. I am not sure how unscrupulous WotC has Become. I will wait a few years before buying even a 4.0 hand book. I would hate to read a book, find a feat I would really love, only to find a notice on the bottom saying to go to the web site and pay a fee for the rest. I do not want to pay 30-50 dollars for half a book.

This anti-piracy line is bull. All it takes is one person who is willing to pay the subscription to get all that content moved to a .pdf download site. The best only effective way to deter Piracy is to hire a small army of lawyers and start suing the .Pdf distribution sites. That and tipping off the FBI.
This is another reason I am sticking with 3.5. I am not sure how unscrupulous WotC has Become. I will wait a few years before buying even a 4.0 hand book. I would hate to read a book, find a feat I would really love, only to find a notice on the bottom saying to go to the web site and pay a fee for the rest. I do not want to pay 30-50 dollars for half a book.

This anti-piracy line is bull. All it takes is one person who is willing to pay the subscription to get all that content moved to a .pdf download site. The best only effective way to deter Piracy is to hire a small army of lawyers and start suing the .Pdf distribution sites. That and tipping off the FBI.
I just wanted to add my opinion in to this thread as i am outraged.

I have just read the section on the home page where its talking about the monthly cost. I have decided that i would rather struggle on without a group and not enjoy D&D, than pay 240$/year for insider. Ok for what im getting its worth about 100$/year, but if you think about it, if wizzards are taking in 20$ a month from each person, and i exsimate around 2 million people will try the first month of insider, wizzards will make 400,000,000$ for that month that is an astoundingly huge intake for a month. The cost of this "project" is no way near that sort of money. If wizzards dropped the price down to 5$ a month, it would then cost us, the players, 60$/year. so based on the estimated minium number of players i think will try it in the first month I reckon thay will take in around 120,000,000$ which is still a huge ammount of money but will pay off the "projects" budget spending in one month.

sorry for any bad spelling or grammer

thanks

Cluny

P.S.

i hope wizzards are listening to us ranting on, it may help them keep the buyers happy.....
where does it say that it is going to be *gulp* 20 dollars?
Terms you should know...
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
Sign In to post comments