Of course no Mac

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It was enough of a spit in the eye that they never ported their 3.0/3.5 tools over to Macintosh -- I could handle that, since it was kinda crummy anyway (I always hated the look of WOTC's "official" character sheets).

But with D&D Insider being set up to be such a huge part of D&D, and not just a few tools to make a character sheet, this is effectively telling a portion of players they aren't wanted. "Mac users, we don't need you. Go play some other RPG."

So I guess WOTC expects me to buy a $1,000 dollar computer so I can play with their little virtual game table, make a character, and print out a sheet? Truth be told, I'd rather do it the old fashioned way, thank you, hang onto my money, and stick with a more stable platform. But the day Wizards learns how to treat its customers will be a cold day in hell, I suppose.
I feel your pain. Unfortunately, it's just not worth most companies making the effort to cater for smaller platforms when Windows has such a large slice of the market. The time and expense simply cannot be justified for the return. Fighting companies like WoTC on this front is futile.
I was wondering...

I'm about to buy a Mac. Wouldn't everything D&D insider has to offer (including the game table) work on an intel Mac with dual boot?

When you install windows on your Mac using boot camp doesn't it install DirectX?
The decision not to support a mac means that my entire group and I will be forced to continue using RPG tools after the release of dndinsider.

As a result, that's about 10 of us that will have no reason to purchase a subscription.

Why? Are we all mac afficiandos intent on spreading the mac mantra?

Nope.. I hate macs generally - but one of my players is a mac-o-phile. If he can't play on his mac, then I can't use the game table to play with my group. The pitch for D&D insider was that the online game table would help bring groups back together - if you want to succesfully do that, you need to support linux and mac. Yes, each has a much smaller share of the installed based - but it only takes 1 mac user out of 8 to render your tool useless to all of them.

-A
I was wondering...

I'm about to buy a Mac. Wouldn't everything D&D insider has to offer (including the game table) work on an intel Mac with dual boot?

When you install windows on your Mac using boot camp doesn't it install DirectX?

If you have duel boot, when you install Windows on your Mac it will include DirectX or should (It would depend mostly on what version of Windows package you install). The biggest complaint from Mac users are those that either can not dual boot Windows and those that do not want to purchase Windows even if they can dual boot.
Plans are always subject to change.
Well, WOTC has lost my and my players' business over this decision.

Way to go.
If you have duel boot, when you install Windows on your Mac it will include DirectX or should (It would depend mostly on what version of Windows package you install). The biggest complaint from Mac users are those that either can not dual boot Windows and those that do not want to purchase Windows even if they can dual boot.

Thanks for the clarification
Well, WOTC has lost my and my players' business over this decision.

Way to go.

I have not been happy with many proposed changes, to rule set, digital mags and so on, however that does not mean you have to cut WotC off.

DDI is a feature that no one needs to purchase. A cross platform Game Table would indeed have a larger customer base, but we can still play D&D as it started in the 20th century. Just purchase PHB (for players) and the DM also has to purchase (DMG and MM). Splat books optional even if they say PHB II will be core rules.

Also as many online gamers have indicated there already are other online gaming applications. Clearly 4th could be played on those systems. The only thing that you should be saying is that you will not purchase/rent DDI because of its little to no value to you.
Plans are always subject to change.
The thing that's frustrating to me about this decision is that it's completely unnecessary to cut OS X (or Linux ) out of their tool set. OpenGL is cross platform and does the simple 3D things that I understand the digital tools do. So if they didn't marry their system to DirectX it would work for you whether you use Windows, Mac, or Linux.

Because they are tying it to DirectX, it will never run on OS X or Linux.

It's like requiring Windows to view a web site.

(which I mention because my Mac won't resolve the forums on Gleemax today, but my PeeCee does just fine, which is weird.)
It's like requiring Windows to view a web site.

(which I mention because my Mac won't resolve the forums on Gleemax today, but my PeeCee does just fine, which is weird.)

From what I see, WotC's IT programs for IE and Windows 2000+, there again I could be in error. Not sure what else to say about it. There clearly could be a local problem as well. I do know Gleemax and WotC websites are not W3C complaint last time I submitted their URLs to the W3C validater.
Plans are always subject to change.
WotC knows that most people who will be playing DnD Insider will be "veteran dnd player's" thus people 25 years +. These people generally now have the financial independence required to purchase quality computers (aka: mac's) and will not return to windows for the life of them.

I'm not a mac zombie, but I can read the writing on the wall: young professionals with more disposable income buy mac's, and dnd veterans are generally young professionals. See the connection? Just ask your staff, does anyone who can afford a mac, purchase a PC? The general answer is no.

BTW: You guys obviously just lost my group of 8.
I know this might be more of a "we got snubbed, so we won't buy" thing, but I'm pretty sure that within a short time of DDI going live there will be a perfectly viable, fan-discovered/made way of using it on your mac (and I mean the mac OS)... and maybe, after a short while, WotC will hop onto the macwagon and make something officially available as soon as higher-priority stuff gets done... that's what subscriptions are for, right? The constant development and added features. As for DDI on Linux... come on, seriously? From a business standpoint, that's not even worth considering... and I'm not a Linux-hater, or whatever (I use it, actually) but there are other things WotC could be spending their (programmer's) time on. Linux users are used to it by now anyways ;)
I've been a Mac user before it became all "hip and cool" to be a mac user, I have more Apple related products in my house than I care to admit. However, this announcement doesn't come as a big shock to me. From strictly a business stand point, I can understand their decision. The engine they were basing these applications on was already in Direct X and it was easier for them to build off of that foundation instead of start from scratch. I can also see the other side of the argument and say that Macs have become more popular than ever in the highschool/college age crowds... and these are core demographics of D&D players.

I am still undecided as to whether I will go ahead with an Insider subscription because while i DO own a IntelMac that can dual boot.... i'm not too pleased with the prospect of purchasing and installing Windows XP (I won't go near Vista) on my machine. Not only that, but i will have to make a sizable investiment in software to protect my machine against adware, spyware, malware, trojans, virus', etc. Sure, there are freeware versions of that sort of software out there, but I have to ask myself the question.... "Do I want to trust my machine which I spent thousands of dollars on to freeware software?"

Right now i'm leaning towards not getting it simply because I don't think that shelling out an extra $150 for XP and accompanying software is worth it. Even though, I have friends in other states that will be wanting to play online, they may have to deal without me. Who knows? Only time will tell.

One thing I will not do is give up on D&D completely. I've been playing since the mid 80's and to say something like "WotC has lost all my business!" simply because there is one supplimentary portion of the game that doesn't fit with my lifestyle.... well, IMO, that's just silly. I couldn't stand Spelljammer...but I didn't stop buying other D&D suppliments simply because it came out.

IMO, some people just need to take a chill pill. They played D&D just fine without the online element.... why can't that still continue?
Lets hope people can get it running under Wine.

One thing I wonder about given this whole initiative is how Wizards will view third party tools for 4e. Will they crack down hard if Linux or OSX tools doing similar things start appearing online?
WotC knows that most people who will be playing DnD Insider will be "veteran dnd player's" thus people 25 years +. These people generally now have the financial independence required to purchase quality computers (aka: mac's) and will not return to windows for the life of them.

I'm not a mac zombie, but I can read the writing on the wall: young professionals with more disposable income buy mac's, and dnd veterans are generally young professionals. See the connection? Just ask your staff, does anyone who can afford a mac, purchase a PC? The general answer is no.

BTW: You guys obviously just lost my group of 8.

there's a such thing as good quality, more costly pc's too, not just the one's people's grandmother's buy
I'm not a mac zombie, but I can read the writing on the wall: young professionals with more disposable income buy mac's, and dnd veterans are generally young professionals. See the connection? Just ask your staff, does anyone who can afford a mac, purchase a PC? The general answer is no.

Actually, as far as the D&D crowd is concerned, I see it going the other direction:

DnD players are gamers, as gamers they like video games, the windows PC is the superior video game plattform, DnD players buy windows PCs :P
Actually, as far as the D&D crowd is concerned, I see it going the other direction:

DnD players are gamers, as gamers they like video games, the windows PC is the superior video game plattform, DnD players buy windows PCs :P

And I'd have to differ again - over half the D&D players I know have a Mac. Especially the college age ones -- Mac laptops are very popular amongst today's college students. (And aren't they the ones you *want* to be getting to buy your products?)

Oh, and it *is* quite possible and frankly, quite easy, to make good cross platform software with minimal extra cost if you make the decision to make it cross platform from day 1. And make it profitable to boot. (Take a look at Blizzard for an object lesson...)
Oh, and it *is* quite possible and frankly, quite easy, to make good cross platform software with minimal extra cost if you make the decision to make it cross platform from day 1.

Absolutely.
One thing I will not do is give up on D&D completely. I've been playing since the mid 80's and to say something like "WotC has lost all my business!" simply because there is one supplimentary portion of the game that doesn't fit with my lifestyle.... well, IMO, that's just silly. I couldn't stand Spelljammer...but I didn't stop buying other D&D suppliments simply because it came out.

IMO, some people just need to take a chill pill. They played D&D just fine without the online element.... why can't that still continue?
I agree completely. I do not own a Mac, but if I did that would be my take on things as well. The argument of the "Young Professional", having the "disposable income" to purchase a Mac makes the rest of us laugh. I might have the "disposable income" to buy a rocket ship to get to work in... I just haven’t... can't figure out why, can you? Go back to Economics, son... just because you have the "disposable income", doesn't always make it the best value. If you do buy that rocket ship to get to work in, stop belly aching about the cost of the rocket fuel and the fact that the other traffic is just to slow!
As for DDI on Linux... come on, seriously? From a business standpoint, that's not even worth considering... and I'm not a Linux-hater, or whatever (I use it, actually) but there are other things WotC could be spending their (programmer's) time on. Linux users are used to it by now anyways ;)

We're starting to get used to being able to run Windows games just fine in Linux, actually. ^.^

Mac and Linux are catching on more than you might think! Together they make up around 7.5% of all computers that connect to the 'net. Mac usage increased by 20% over the past year, and Linux use doubled in that same time ... can you see where this trend might lead?

Lest you think that I'm full of hot air, the fully-featured $200 Linux "gPC" sold out at Wal-Mart, and Dell is now shipping Linux on select PCs and notebooks as well!

To those who haven't yet, try Ubuntu Linux out for yourself and see what all the fuss is about. You heard it here first; you may hear about it at your gaming table sooner rather than later. *grin*
Not to be a prick, but if that 7.5% combined figure is correct, wouldn't that make Windows based computers account for the other 92.5%? That seems like a fairly clear and rather decisive majority to me... not too surprising that that's the market they're reaching for if you look at it purely from a statistical standpoint.

"Be careful to choose your enemies well.  Friends don't much matter.  But the choice of enemies is very important."  

- Oscar Wilde

Not to be a prick, but if that 7.5% combined figure is correct, wouldn't that make Windows based computers account for the other 92.5%? That seems like a fairly clear and rather decisive majority to me... not too surprising that that's the market they're reaching for if you look at it purely from a statistical standpoint.

Yeah, but run the math on what the statistic for individuals means for groups containing 1 DM and 5 players, the average group according to WotC's numbers. If 92.5% of people use Windows, then only 62.6% of 6 person groups contain only Windows users. That's a little less decisive.

([post=14189824]Here's a post where I run the numbers.[/post])

Also, it wouldn't have hurt them terribly to hire a team to write an OpenGL engine. They just cut corners by using an existing DirectX engine that had around.

I have a feeling that laptop numbers are really going to hurt them if they're expecting face to face groups to make any use of the product. Mac laptops are extremely popular right now because of the price of their low-end models. My grad school classes are easily 80% Mac right now (which is odd, I'll admit), and Apple's got about 10% of the retail notebook market right now. Apple also takes 45% of the >$1300 education & consumer market.

While their overall numbers aren't great, notebooks are something to pay extra special attention to unless WotC only wants to see people at home, playing remotely, use the virtual gaming table.
The article also noted that their growth rate is likely to be very slow, indicating that their share of the market seems to be peaking somewhat. While the future might look bright, the present is what I'm pretty sure WotC is looking at, and that 2% global market figure just doesn't look worth it.

You may not like it, and I agree that its fairly shortsighted on WotC's part (which shouldn't be surprising these days I don't think), but from a corporate point of view it does kinda make sense to use of an existing engine that's going to reduce your immediate expenses. Beyond that, consider that some guy in a suit looks around, sees that Macs can support DirectX with the dual boot thingy, and doesn't really consider the costs of actually getting a Windows OS to the consumer, instead looking at the costs to the company. As far as they're concerned, I'm sure they thought they covered that base. Its not good for you Mac users to be sure, but it makes sense from a certain context.

"Be careful to choose your enemies well.  Friends don't much matter.  But the choice of enemies is very important."  

- Oscar Wilde

Just wanted to jump in here to reiterate a point that has been made before, but seems to get overlooked a lot. It's not simply about how many people own a Mac, and why bother catering to a small market share. I have a group of about 10 friends spread over the US who play D&D. We were hugely excited by the idea of being able to get together online and play. But some of us own Macs. Those that own PCs aren't going to bother signing up if we all can't play. And each of my friends have other groups of people that they play with, but in every one of those groups, some of the players have Macs. None of them are planning on using this, because they would have to exclude people from their groups. So between my group of friends, and all the ancillary groups that they have, there are probably 70 to 100 people right there that won't bother with this, and most of them use PCs. Since this is a social game that is based around groups of people, it seems short-sighted not to realize that cutting out some people, (no matter how small a group that may seem to be) is going to affect your wider, target market as well.
Well you could always buy a real computer:D or use I think its called bootcamp and go that route. Just a FYI I have hated apples since the grand old days of the only true great computer the AMIGA To bad they dropped the ball and ruined it.
I can understand annoyance at lack of support for Macs. I would think that there might be some programs to emulate windows (there are for Linux).

Despite the *cough....propaganda....cough* Mac / PC commercials that apple puts out, apple is not better at everything that Windows does. Of course I hear that apple can do some nice things too. ;)
I can understand annoyance at lack of support for Macs. I would think that there might be some programs to emulate windows (there are for Linux).

There isn't anything like Wine. There are programs which will let you dual-boot or run Windows in parallel with Mac OS X on Intel-based Macs, but they require you to purchase a copy of Windows.

Despite the *cough....propaganda....cough* Mac / PC commercials that apple puts out, apple is not better at everything that Windows does. Of course I hear that apple can do some nice things too. ;)

No one here is saying that, so please don't attempt to provoke an OS whizzing-contest.

All we're saying is that some us (or our friends) DO use it, and we/they shouldn't be forced to buy/pirate a copy of Windows and make room for it on their system just to support a single application. Because if you do so, inevitably some if not most Mac users will balk at that, and entire gaming groups are lost as subscribers.

Plus, no one likes to be treated by a company as a second class citizen. It generates ill will that spreads to the rest of a person's purchasing decisions. Mac users tend to be pretty fiercely loyal to companies that make a decision to support them and somewhat grudge bearing towards companies that choose to freeze them out. I fear that WotC is putting up a barrier between them and a small but vocal portion of their customer base that didn't have to be made into a source of bad mouthing.
I am new to d&d and have been browsing the forums to learn. Do I understand correctly you cannot print character sheets or play online with a Mac?
Esox,

You can't play online with a Mac using WotC's Gametable software, unless you have an Intel-based Mac and buy a copy of Windows, in which case you can use Apple's Boot Camp or perhaps Parallel's software to run your Mac as a Windows PC.

However, there are other virtual tabletop programs that will run in Mac OS X, such as the one mentioned in my sig.

Perhaps WotC should make an effort to make more people aware of this fact, so that folks like you don't pass on the entire D&D system just because of Gametable's lack of cross-platform support.
However, there are other virtual tabletop programs that will run in Mac OS X, such as the one mentioned in my sig.

Check your posting settings. Your sig is missing.

Perhaps WotC should make an effort to make more people aware of this fact, so that folks like you don't pass on the entire D&D system just because of Gametable's lack of cross-platform support.

Hey, I hope no one's going to pass on 4e because of this (though it's a risk). Just D&D Insider.
Darn it, Sigs seem to sometimes disappear on this forum if you edit your post.
Thanks for the heads-up, Valdrax.
Darn it, Sigs seem to sometimes disappear on this forum if you edit your post.
Thanks for the heads-up, Valdrax.

NP. (Weird, it happened to my last post too.)
Check your posting settings. Your sig is missing.

Not sure it is settings, because many sigs are missing. More likely the brainless gleemax is causing display problems.
Hey, I hope no one's going to pass on 4e because of this (though it's a risk). Just D&D Insider.

Of course there are other reasons to pass on 4th that some will take. In fairness to WotC game Table, the ezines and what ever other DI features offered are stated not to effect playability of 4th Ed.
Plans are always subject to change.
Are you sure you don't have the "Display signatures multiple times per page" option deselected?

(In My Account -> My User Control Panel -> Edit My Thread Viewing Options -> Thread Display Options -> Thread Display Options )

I just turned it on and could see the signatures fine.
Are you sure you don't have the "Display signatures multiple times per page" option deselected?

I just turned it on and could see the signatures fine.

I never selected the option.
Plans are always subject to change.
I never selected the option.

It defaulted to off for me so I would assume it did the same thing for you.
Are you sure you don't have the "Display signatures multiple times per page" option deselected?

(In My Account -> My User Control Panel -> Edit My Thread Viewing Options -> Thread Display Options -> Thread Display Options )

I just turned it on and could see the signatures fine.

Smart man. That was it. Thanks.
Well off topic for the thread, at least I got rid of those bloody images I been fighting for years.
Plans are always subject to change.
Yet another mac user (two more of which are in my gaming groups) that would love the gametable to work on the macs. I understand why, being a software developer myself, they chose the route they did. Though it really would have been nice if they possibly shopped around a bit more for an existing graphics engine that was cross platform and save themselves some potential development time later down the road...

Guess we'll see how well it runs under VMWare...
Actually, as far as the D&D crowd is concerned, I see it going the other direction:

DnD players are gamers, as gamers they like video games, the windows PC is the superior video game plattform, DnD players buy windows PCs :P

It is just the OS that has took over the pc, not the end all of gaming goodness. Vista made a big mis-step when it axed the file swapping and better data storage that was supposed to be the pinnacle of security, and went with the useless content protection that prevents HD content from working, regulates sound into a choking pathway that gets checked for piracy twice before hitting the speakers, and a host of other little tid bits that take computing back 20 years.

Windoze is doomed if Vista isn't reined back and made into a basic pretty XP or pulled from the market and replaced by an OS that doesn't have the Virus like properties that has been dubbed "content protection compliance."
Terms you should know...
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
There isn't anything like Wine. There are programs which will let you dual-boot or run Windows in parallel with Mac OS X on Intel-based Macs, but they require you to purchase a copy of Windows.

Not quite true. There is Darwine. It sucks.

I got it to run MS Paint and Minesweeper, but none of the real software I tried would launch.