PHB3 Speculation/Ideas?

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I'm thinking Martial, Psionic/Arcane, and Ki Heroes?
No idea on races.


Any ideas here?
Shaman: "Why doesn't the squirrel shoot the wizard?" DM: "Because the last squirrel who tried to shoot the wizard missed, then was pulled out of his tree and incinerated." Wizard: "He has a point."
I'm thinking Martial, Psionic/Arcane, and Ki Heroes?
No idea on races.


Any ideas here?

Psionics is clearly likely to be there. Since there was mention of Ki users, that will likely be in there as well.

I'm fairly sure just about every fantasy class can be shoehorned into the power sources above and the ones from the PHB I & II.
There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I highly doubt they will be doing anymore of the Powers already around when they have gotten so much support/classes as is.

I am putting my money on Ki (obvious reason since of the Monk), Psionics (most wanted Power Source) and Shadow (we have already gotten some hints of Shadow).

As for races. I suspect/hope we will have Elan. Any other number of races could/couldn't fit so the Elan is the one I really want.
I'm expecting Psionics and Ki. Perhaps Shadow, but I think you can get 8 classes out of just the first two. Not expecting any more Martial or Arcane material in the PH3.

Races:
Githyanki and Githzerai (to go with psionics and monks)
Kalashtar (if they aren't in the EPG, but I think they will be)
Goblins (including a Blue racial feat, perhaps)
One other psionic race, probably Maenads or Dromites.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I highly doubt they will be doing anymore of the Powers already around when they have gotten so much support/classes as is.

I am putting my money on Ki (obvious reason since of the Monk), Psionics (most wanted Power Source) and Shadow (we have already gotten some hints of Shadow).

As for races. I suspect/hope we will have Elan. Any other number of races could/couldn't fit so the Elan is the one I really want.

What is the shadow power source? The name evokes images of stealth or necrotic power.
There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Ah come on, wait for me to get PHB 2 first.
Oh sweet jesus, they'd better not stick the monk with Martial or Divine.
Or make Psionics arcane. That would suck.
Shaman: "Why doesn't the squirrel shoot the wizard?" DM: "Because the last squirrel who tried to shoot the wizard missed, then was pulled out of his tree and incinerated." Wizard: "He has a point."
What is the shadow power source? The name evokes images of stealth or necrotic power.

You pegged it pretty solidly, I believe. S'why I like the idea of the ninja as a Shadow Striker rather than Ki, for the whole invisibility/teleporting/insubstantial walk through walls kinda stuff.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
There are four power sources left (Ki, Psionics, Shadow and Elemental) and depending on how Wizards breaks the classes down (4/2/2) or (4/4) it could be; PHB3 - Psi/Ki/Shadow or Psi/Ki with PHB4 - Elemental/Ki/Shadow or Shadow/Elemental or any permutation thereof.

Bel
Originally Posted by WotC_RichBaker In related news, I'm afraid I'm going to have to confiscate your 3.5 rulebooks, and force you to convert to the new edition. Where do you live?
I'm thinking Martial, Psionic/Arcane, and Ki Heroes?
No idea on races.


Any ideas here?

Martial is "complete." No more martial classes. Ever. Arcane should be done, but pretty much whenever a class doesn't quite fit another power source or they don't want to release the new source early, they toss it in Arcane *coughsorcerercough*. Arcane is up to, what now, 6 classes? Nothing else has more than four.

From here on out, safe money is on two sources per PHB, with four classes from each. Next up is likely Psionic and Ki. In fact, we know Ki is coming because the monk playtest is coming out.

Personally, I'd like them to delay the familiar stuff. I don't care about Ki or Psionic, I want to see what else they have up their sleeves. Aka: I want to know what Elemental will be like!
Heroes Don't Need Special Gear to Be Heroic - A guide to removing magic item dependency and smoothing out advancement. Reinventing the Workday: A Shift Towards Encounter-Based Resources - A guide to abandoning daily resources
Oh sweet jesus, they'd better not stick the monk with Martial or Divine.
Or make Psionics arcane. That would suck.

We already know the Monk is Ki.

We also already know Psionics is its own Power Source and nicely this time it is as core in the game as Arcane, Divine, etc. So not left to the side.
Personally, I'd like them to delay the familiar stuff. I don't care about Ki or Psionic, I want to see what else they have up their sleeves. Aka: I want to know what Elemental will be like!

I'm of the exact opposite feeling. I don't think there is anything they could do with the Elemental power source to get me to want to see that in the PH3 over Psionics. Yeah, I know its all going to be based on the same mechanics now, unlike 3.0/3.5, but its something I enjoy having in my D&D games so I want to see the 4th edition version asap.
You pegged it pretty solidly, I believe. S'why I like the idea of the ninja as a Shadow Striker rather than Ki, for the whole invisibility/teleporting/insubstantial walk through walls kinda stuff.

Perhaps i'm misunderstanding a bit, but i fail to see how stealth lies any more in the purview of shadow than it does that of martial. For that matter, i fail to see how a ninja is really any different than a trickster rogue.
There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Perhaps i'm misunderstanding a bit, but i fail to see how stealth lies any more in the purview of shadow than it does that of martial. For that matter, i fail to see how a ninja is really any different than a trickster rogue.

Shadow includes illusion, from what I've read. The illusionist will likely use the shadow source.

'Real' ninjas, yes. Fantasy ninjas, however, do things mystically. There's one rogue teleport power, and it's very conditional (you can only 'hitch a ride' when someone else teleports). Ninjas just *poof* and go places, and walk through walls. It's a fantasy game, so it should have fantasy ninjas.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Martial is "complete." No more martial classes. Ever.

Is Martial complete? Or do you merely feel that it's complete, bearing in mind a book called Martial Power 2 is scheduled for sometime beyond 2009? Do you have a source, or are you just stating your opinion as fact?

I'm comfortable with where Martial is now, but I'm certainly not about to turn down new options. I'm still waiting for my ranged Warlord!

Arcane should be done, but pretty much whenever a class doesn't quite fit another power source or they don't want to release the new source early, they toss it in Arcane *coughsorcerercough*. Arcane is up to, what now, 6 classes? Nothing else has more than four.

...I want to know what Elemental will be like!

Are you suggesting that the Sorcerer should have been Elemental, even as you state that you don't know what the Elemental power source is actually about? What makes the Sorcerer any more Elemental than a Wizard or Swordmage? What makes the Sorcerer any less Arcane than a Warlock or Artificer? (I've also heard folks say the Sorcerer should have been Primal, but IMHO that doesn't fly either.)

Finally, why do you feel each power source should be limited to four classes? Consider that Arcane ("normal magic") is perhaps the most widespread and deep-seated concept in the D&D mythos.
Is Martial complete? Or do you merely feel that it's complete, bearing in mind a book called Martial Power 2 is scheduled for sometime beyond 2009? Do you have a source, or are you just stating your opinion as fact?

He said 'no more martial classes.' Since classes only appear in PHBs (sayeth the devs, who can, admittedly, change their minds as they wish), MP2 will just be build options, feats (likely racial feat for the PH2 races), PPs and EDs. More martial options, but not martial classes.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
If psionics is going to be one of the power sources, then perhaps the Duergar will get a place with the races.
Shadow includes illusion, from what I've read. The illusionist will likely use the shadow source.

'Real' ninjas, yes. Fantasy ninjas, however, do things mystically. There's one rogue teleport power, and it's very conditional (you can only 'hitch a ride' when someone else teleports). Ninjas just *poof* and go places, and walk through walls. It's a fantasy game, so it should have fantasy ninjas.

That is fair enough. Teleportation should definitely be beyond the nature of martial characters (unless it's racial or grantd from an item or something). I would argue that stelath and teleportation do fit neatly into the Ki power source though. And since i'm still unclear on exactly what Ki power will entail, some illusion may fall into that category as well.
There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I would be surprised if there is more than one new power source in the PHB3. Outside of the necessity to do so in the 1st PHB, PHB2 introduces 1 new power source and some add ons for the other sources. I expect to see 1 new power source (KI) in the PHB3 and then some more addons for Primal mainly and perhaps a little for the other sources.
Is Martial complete? Or do you merely feel that it's complete, bearing in mind a book called Martial Power 2 is scheduled for sometime beyond 2009? Do you have a source, or are you just stating your opinion as fact?

I don't know, I don't save links to every developer interview I've ever read. I'm sure I'm not the only person to remember this, but as far as I am aware, they are done with martial classes and have said as much.

They won't, of course, discount the possibility that someone might come up with something, but seriously, there is nothing iconic that can't be done with a new build for a pre-existing class.
I'm comfortable with where Martial is now, but I'm certainly not about to turn down new options. I'm still waiting for my ranged Warlord!

Which is not a new class, just a new build/option for a pre-existing class.

Are you suggesting that the Sorcerer should have been Elemental, even as you state that you don't know what the Elemental power source is actually about?

I am suggesting that WotC initially said the Sorcerer was not going to be Arcane, only to change that statement later. I don't know why, I don't know what it was supposed to be, and it doesn't really matter to me.

What makes the Sorcerer any more Elemental than a Wizard or Swordmage?

Chaos maybe? I really have no clue, nor does it matter.
What makes the Sorcerer any less Arcane than a Warlock or Artificer? (I've also heard folks say the Sorcerer should have been Primal, but IMHO that doesn't fly either.)

I'm not really sure what makes anything Arcane. I think Arcane has the weakest defining concept, and so far, its just a random collection of magic classes that don't fit elsewhere. Swordmage and Wizard have a good link, but Bard, Warlock, and Sorcerer are so different now. Before, they all basically used the same spells. I mean, seriously, the only thing linking Wizards and Sorcerers in 3rd was a shared spell list. Now, it seems the only thing keeping them all Arcane is nostalgia.

Finally, why do you feel each power source should be limited to four classes? Consider that Arcane ("normal magic") is perhaps the most widespread and deep-seated concept in the D&D mythos.

I don't mind more than four classes per source. I just think it should stay closer to even. Right now Arcane has 50% more classes than any other source. Arcane comprises 1/3 of the total classes released to date. Maybe wait on giving them a 7th until something else has 5. Bard and Artificer, at least, should probably have been something else. What? I don't know, but arcane is not really a perfect fit, only the best fit available.

Anyway, I really have very little interest in Psionics or Ki. I'm only minorly intrigued by the new mechanic tricks. Otherwise, we pretty much know what to expect. If Shadow isn't a codeword for the Emo power source, I will eat my hat. So that leaves Elemental. Its a wild card. Could be awesome. Could be left out entirely. Its interesting. Personally, though, I would be perfectly happy running D&D with only three power sources: Divine, Martial, and Primal (ha, bet you thought I was going to say Arcane!).

I would be surprised if there is more than one new power source in the PHB3. Outside of the necessity to do so in the 1st PHB, PHB2 introduces 1 new power source and some add ons for the other sources. I expect to see 1 new power source (KI) in the PHB3 and then some more addons for Primal mainly and perhaps a little for the other sources.

This is troublesome. If this is true, first, they are not going to have every source released for four more years, rather than two. That's not good business sense. They'll want them all out so they can bring option books and things like that in the future.

Second, if each PHB does have 8 classes in it, then old sources will have to get new classes, which is kind of a no-no once the X Power book has been released. They already have Martial Power 2 set for release. If they create a new Martial class, it will have 1/3 the support of the other four. Even if they continue to release more Martial Power books, either the new class will be perpetually 2 books behind, or the old classes will get less and less support in each consecutive book. That's also bad for business.
Heroes Don't Need Special Gear to Be Heroic - A guide to removing magic item dependency and smoothing out advancement. Reinventing the Workday: A Shift Towards Encounter-Based Resources - A guide to abandoning daily resources
I would be surprised if there is more than one new power source in the PHB3. Outside of the necessity to do so in the 1st PHB, PHB2 introduces 1 new power source and some add ons for the other sources. I expect to see 1 new power source (KI) in the PHB3 and then some more addons for Primal mainly and perhaps a little for the other sources.

The reason PH 2 only had one new source is they had to finish up the two they left dangling after PH 1. Now that the first four sources are as "complete" as they need to be (translation: enough classes for a X Power splatbook), there is no need to revisit them in future PHs.
Shadow is likely, considering the slow appearance of Shadow PPs, as well as the hints offered in the recent Dragon article on assassins. Ki and Psionics are also pretty much a given, since the Monk is confirmed and developers have said that Psionics was almost ready for PHB2 but cut for space.
I don't know, I don't save links to every developer interview I've ever read. I'm sure I'm not the only person to remember this, but as far as I am aware, they are done with martial classes and have said as much.

They won't, of course, discount the possibility that someone might come up with something, but seriously, there is nothing iconic that can't be done with a new build for a pre-existing class.

...

Which is not a new class, just a new build/option for a pre-existing class.

I see what you're saying here. I was responding to you saying, "Martial is complete," rather than where you said, "Martial won't get any new classes," although what I didn't really consider is that you meant the same thing with each statement. I personally still think you're jumping the gun a bit, but your argument is fair.

I am suggesting that WotC initially said the Sorcerer was not going to be Arcane, only to change that statement later. I don't know why, I don't know what it was supposed to be, and it doesn't really matter to me.

This is a bold statement, that doesn't match with how I remember things, nor with any of the early information about the Sorcerer that I can find right now; as far back as I remember, the Sorcerer was confirmed as Arcane. It may not matter to you whether or not the information you're spreading is accurate, but if you're going to state your opinion as fact, you should really either be able to back it up with proof.

Chaos maybe? I really have no clue, nor does it matter.

I'm not really sure what makes anything Arcane. I think Arcane has the weakest defining concept, and so far, its just a random collection of magic classes that don't fit elsewhere. Swordmage and Wizard have a good link, but Bard, Warlock, and Sorcerer are so different now. Before, they all basically used the same spells. I mean, seriously, the only thing linking Wizards and Sorcerers in 3rd was a shared spell list. Now, it seems the only thing keeping them all Arcane is nostalgia.

You may not like Arcane, but if you're going to say that half of its classes should be Arcane, you should probably offer some alternatives. The main thematic difference between the Arcane classes seems to be how they access their spells; since the Invoker accesses his prayers differently than all the other Divine classes do, would you say that the Invoker shouldn't be Divine?

Also, FWIW: I'm trying to ask you about your opinion, mpl, but I find it unsportsmanlike that you'd brush off half of my questions as irrelevant, when obviously I don't think they are. It takes two to have a civilized conversation, bro.
I am suggesting that WotC initially said the Sorcerer was not going to be Arcane, only to change that statement later. I don't know why, I don't know what it was supposed to be, and it doesn't really matter to me.

Huh? Outside of Races and Classes, which didn't really say anything on the subject of power source for the Sorcerer, the first mention of the Sorcerer we got was that it was difficult to decide its niche as it shared the power source and role of the Wizard. That pretty much screamed ARCANE CONTROLLER, and for the longest time, that's what we knew of it. Now we can see that this didn't live through the development phase, but it was never mentioned to be anything other than Arcane.
I'm going to guess they'll go 4/2/2 new sources (Ki being confirmed as one, obviously), with one of the 2's being Elemental. Elemental seems to be the least recognizable source, so they may split it up between PH3 and PH4 simply so that it won't drag down PH4 sales because no one has ever heard of it. It's either that, or save a real whopper for PH4 (Necromancer? Empath? Ninja? Blackguard?) to withstand the potential lack of interest from a book with half Elemental classes that a select few have heard of.

As for races, I have no clue. I like the two Giths getting written up. More obvious choices (Minotaur, Shadar-kai) have been covered in Dragon, so probably won't appear in PH3.
After the schpiel about "true assassins" in The Art of the Kill, I'm going to guess that Shadow will be one of the new power sources in the PH3--and that Psionic may not make it in, and that the 2010 setting may not be Dark Sun but Ravenloft. Of course, if they don't have four Shadow and four Ki classes planned, it might be Psionic/Shadow/Ki after all.

The bits about no Psionics in PH3 and Ravenloft as next year's setting could, however, be perfectly well bunk, since Dark Sun got a much more explicit outing even earlier than this "true assassins" business in the Hazards of Athas article.
KOBOLDS ^_^

i'd rather much have kobolds in a phb than dragon magazine O_o

I was REALLY disappointed they didn't make this cut for phb2 ~_~ they have a bigger fanbase than you realize. I thought they would be perfect with the whole primal power source.
My guess is for psionic/ki with no shadow.

I base this on a few feelings.

1) After Eberron I believe Dark Sun then Oriental Adventures will be the next campaign settings
2) You need psionics for Dark Sun
3) Dark Sun would make an excellent contrast against Eberron
4) Psionics and ki fit together for an eastern feel
5) OA would be ready at that point with martial, arcane, divine, psionic, and ki
6) I feel Dark Sun and OA have more fan requests than Ravenloft

I think we'll see Shadow and Ravenloft both... but until a fifth round. I'm kind of interested to see where we go after that. Will it be something new or will it be more 'nostalgia' settings: Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Red Steel, Birthright, Al-Qaddim, Spelljammer? Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Dark Sun and Ravenloft both.
This is a bold statement, that doesn't match with how I remember things, nor with any of the early information about the Sorcerer that I can find right now; as far back as I remember, the Sorcerer was confirmed as Arcane. It may not matter to you whether or not the information you're spreading is accurate, but if you're going to state your opinion as fact, you should really either be able to back it up with proof.

Stating your opinion as fact is a staple of the written word. Anyway, I clearly may be mistaken, as can anyone. It is my recollection, though, that there was quite a bit of talk about Sorcerer being something else. I do remember the Arcane Controller talk as well.

I still don't think Arcane quite fits, it just fits better than the other current options.

You may not like Arcane, but if you're going to say that half of its classes should be Arcane, you should probably offer some alternatives. The main thematic difference between the Arcane classes seems to be how they access their spells; since the Invoker accesses his prayers differently than all the other Divine classes do, would you say that the Invoker shouldn't be Divine?

No, Divine power comes from gods, Primal power comes from spirits, Ki power comes from the "soul," Psionic comes from the mind, Shadow power comes from the plane of shadows, and Elemental power comes from the Elemental Chaos/Primordials. Arcane power comes from...? Its "the other stuff" source.

As for alternatives, I don't know. Sorcerer could easily be Primal or Elemental (well maybe Elemental, we don't really know what its like, but the chaos fits speculation). I think Bard should definitely have been Primal. However, they clearly didn't like the link to spirits, so that left Arcane as the only viable choice. Its a catchall. Eh.
Heroes Don't Need Special Gear to Be Heroic - A guide to removing magic item dependency and smoothing out advancement. Reinventing the Workday: A Shift Towards Encounter-Based Resources - A guide to abandoning daily resources
"No more martial classes" isn't necessarily true, because classes don't only show up in PHBs; they show up in PGs (Players Guides) as well. That's how we have over 4 Arcane classes. So while there will be no Martial classes in the PHB3, there may still be more Martial heroes to come via a Players Guide.
I'm really looking forward to Necromancer, which I assume will be a product of Shadow. Hell, I'm hoping that comes out before PHB3. The idea of a Diablo 2-esque Necromancer, though I know we'll probably only have one pet, is really the only thing keeping me interested in 4th edition.
The "don't rule out martial" thing has one major issue: what would the new class(es) be?


Also, just curious, how is Warlord Arcane? I think it should've been martial or divine.
Shaman: "Why doesn't the squirrel shoot the wizard?" DM: "Because the last squirrel who tried to shoot the wizard missed, then was pulled out of his tree and incinerated." Wizard: "He has a point."
The "don't rule out martial" thing has one major issue: what would the new class(es) be?


Also, just curious, how is Warlord Arcane? I think it should've been martial or divine.

The Warlord is Martial.

As for other Martial classes. Well it all depends on how specific one wishes it to be. For instance while a Swashbuckler could be catered with a Fighter, Rogue or Ranger fairly well there could still be a class of it per chance. I think in general it will depend on how much WoTC wishes to branch out with the current classes rather then building new ones.
The "don't rule out martial" thing has one major issue: what would the new class(es) be?

Martial. Controller.

Guess what's the only power source without a controller? Yeah, you got it. I hope that a martial controller would show out, at least in a campaign setting: at present, two setting-specific classes out of two are arcane.
Martial. Controller.

Guess what's the only power source without a controller? Yeah, you got it. I hope that a martial controller would show out, at least in a campaign setting: at present, two setting-specific classes out of two are arcane.

They won't make a martial controller just to fill the grid. If they can come up with a concept for one that doesn't step on current classes, they probably will.

Unfortunately, if the player-made ones I see floating around the forums are any indication of what a martial controller would be, it should never happen. Every one I see is either a cheap ripoff of the Archer Ranger or Warlord concepts, or a class that so imbalanced that they'd ruin the game by putting it in (like giving a Warlord-ripoff a bunch of minions/slaves).
What is the shadow power source? The name evokes images of stealth or necrotic power.

Exactly.

Necromancer, Ninja, Illusionist and Hexblade.

Thats the source that sees 4 new classes. Ki gets 2(I think leader and controller being the ones that lose out), then Psi gets 2(Striker or Leader and COntroller)
If we get shadow I think Shadar-Kai get in, if we have Ki we'll probably have Giths (along with the Psionic power source).

I do hope we get some Kobolds...probably with the Elemental Power source.

Goblins would be fun.
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The "don't rule out martial" thing has one major issue: what would the new class(es) be?


Also, just curious, how is Warlord Arcane? I think it should've been martial or divine.

... how did you not know the Warlord is Martial?
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I'm guessing they'll continue the 4/2/2 class scheme with Psionics/Ki/Shadow. Likely Races are Githyanki, Githzerai, Shadar-kai and two or three more. Dark Sun would be the year's setting.

Once they do the Psionics Powers, Adventurer's Vault 3 & Draconomicon 3, we'll see the X Powers 2 that have been mentioned.
"Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads, swords for everyone" - Minsc, BG
... how did you not know the Warlord is Martial?

Oops.
I could've sworn the Warlord was Arcane, hence my confusion.
Shaman: "Why doesn't the squirrel shoot the wizard?" DM: "Because the last squirrel who tried to shoot the wizard missed, then was pulled out of his tree and incinerated." Wizard: "He has a point."
If the shadow power source is in the PHB III then I think we may see the Illumians from Races of Destiny. IIRC they had a strong connection to the plane of shadow and had a prestige class centered on manipulating shadow-stuff into weaponry.

I think it would be pretty easy to port over their sigils as well. They'd be a bit like the genasi...each sigil would offer a different bonus and different encounter power. You could take feats to "display" more than one sigil at a time.

Anyway, they clearly mined Races of Stone for the Goliath so I wouldn't be surprised to see Illumians make a come back as well.