Implement/Weapon Expertise: +1 attack!!

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Can you believe this...
DDE Tiefling Invoker

DDE Goliath barbarian

DDE Elf Sorcerer

Do the simple math, that feat adds +1 to ATTACK! Now THIS is power creep.
The sorcerer even seems to get (maybe thanks to the combo with his other GREAT feat) the Implement Expertise when using the dagger as a weapon, as long as he doesn't throw it.
Wow...

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Thanks for the link.

+1 to attacks. I wonder if they might be overcompensating for not really following the guidelines on monster defenses in the MM. Fort defense I'm told tends to be as high or higher than AC in many cases, while Reflex is only 1-2 points lower when implements lose 2-3 points of attack compared to weapons.
What stood out to me was "Sorcerous Blade Channeling." Sorcerers look like they ate the remains of the duskblade!
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Well then... and I was 99% sure that it would be +1 damage/tier to finally be rid of those silly elemental damage feats. So much for +hit being the sacred stat in 4e, something you had to fight tooth and nail to get.
Thanks for the link.

+1 to attacks. I wonder if they might be overcompensating for not really following the guidelines on monster defenses in the MM. Fort defense I'm told tends to be as high or higher than AC in many cases, while Reflex is only 1-2 points lower when implements lose 2-3 points of attack compared to weapons.

Well, but... We also get Weapon Expertise... Not only Implement... Don't know, what strikes me is that such a basic feat should not appear in PHb2, it should have been there in PHb1 from the beginning.
The only thing that could reasonably balance the feat and make it a bit more situational is denying its bonus when you suffer certain conditions, to represent you no longer can take advantage from your expertise when you're crippled.

I started a thread for the incredible sorcerer's melee feat here...

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Campaigns and Characters:
Zendikar: Covenant of The Forgotten Relics
- Cylonea: Merfolk (Elemental Priest) Shaman(World Speaker)/Artificer --> Sheet, Obsidian Portal's, Fluff
- Vurokk Dahvre: Shade (Escaped Slave) Blackguard of Fury --> Sheet, Obsidian Portal's, Fluff, Blogs (1, 2)
Nature's Allies
- Carwyn Sihderfein: Half-Elf (Tuathan) Blackguard of Domination / Binder of Gloom --> Sheet, Fluff, Blogs (1, 2)

Do the simple math, that damned feat adds +1 to ATTACK! Now THIS is power creep.
The sorcerer even seems to get (maybe thanks to the combo with his other GREAT feat) the Implement Expertise when using the dagger as a weapon, as long as he doesn't throw it.
Wow...

Perhaps the math just isn't simple enough for me...but here's what I see on the sheet:

Sorcerer's Acid Orb: +6 (+4 stat, +1 level, +1 enhancement)
Invoker's Sun Strike: +6 (+4 stat, +1 level, +1 enhancement)
Barbarian's Greatsword: +10 (+5 stat, +3 proficiency, +1 level, +1 enhancement)

None of bonuses need a +1 to-hit feat to explain what they provide. Each character has a +1 magic weapon or implement. Think we're jumping the gun on what the expertise feats actually do.
Wow...if it provides an attack bonus this is the definition of power creep...
Perhaps the math just isn't simple enough for me...but here's what I see on the sheet:

Sorcerer's Acid Orb: +6 (+4 stat, +1 level, +1 enhancement)
Invoker's Sun Strike: +6 (+4 stat, +1 level, +1 enhancement)
Barbarian's Greatsword: +10 (+5 stat, +3 proficiency, +1 level, +1 enhancement)

None of bonuses need a +1 to-hit feat to explain what they provide. Each character has a +1 magic weapon or implement. Think we're jumping the gun on what the expertise feats actually do.

Sorcerer CHa: 16
Barbarian Str: 18

The bonuses to the side are Level+Mod.
Sorcerer CHa: 16
Barbarian Str: 18

The bonuses to the side are Level+Mod.

Doh. Apparently, it wasn't simple enough. Thanks for the tactful correction.
Doh. Apparently, it wasn't simple enough. Thanks for the tactful correction.

I try not to insult people over simple things I have done before too. .
Who thought that was a good idea? If it's a feat bonus, Tieflings just got aced out of one of the feats that made them be awesome. But if it's not...that's even worse!
I think you are all jumping the gun a bit on calling a heroic feat that grants +1 attack bonus power creep. Do people call foul at the fighters one-handed and two-handed weapon talents? As long as the bonus granted does not increase and only grants a +1 feat bonus when using a specific weapon group or implement over all 30 levels of the game it should be fine.
I think you are all jumping the gun a bit on calling a heroic feat that grants +1 attack bonus power creep. Do people call foul at the fighters one-handed and two-handed weapon talents? As long as the bonus granted does not increase and only grants a +1 feat bonus when using a specific weapon group or implement over all 30 levels of the game it should be fine.

Seconded.
I think you are all jumping the gun a bit on calling a heroic feat that grants +1 attack bonus power creep. Do people call foul at the fighters one-handed and two-handed weapon talents? As long as the bonus granted does not increase and only grants a +1 feat bonus when using a specific weapon group or implement over all 30 levels of the game it should be fine.

Its a little early to call it one way or another, it does create some oddities
1. the tiefling feat is severely weakened now, meaning from am optimizing standpoint they are not even close to good at infernalocks which is interesting all things considered.

2. Every striker is going to have IF/WF as their first feat, as +1 to hit > +2 max damage.

3. Every warlord will have WF as their first feat as to them its simply much better then Weapon Focus.

4. Its strictly better than weapon focus. +3 damage < +1 hit at epic levels. At least until they give us a way to get +9-12 to hit then maybe more damage is better.
I don't really think you can call it power creep. Power creep is when stuff in later books is better than stuff in earlier books. This is just a feat. A good one, yeah, but its not really creep. Its just a really good feat.

It is surprising, though.
Yeah, I feel like this feat is coming dangerously close to a feat that's "so good everyone has to take it", which I thought they were trying to avoid. Attack Bonus is hard to come by in 4e, yet it's the most necessary thing for almost every class in the game, so I can't imagine any character that wouldn't take expertise.

And it certainly is power creep. If everyone takes this feat (and who wouldn't?), then basically every class in the game just got a +1 attack bonus across the board. That's the very definition of power creep.
Yeah, I feel like this feat is coming dangerously close to a feat that's "so good everyone has to take it", which I thought they were trying to avoid. Attack Bonus is hard to come by in 4e, yet it's the most necessary thing for almost every class in the game, so I can't imagine any character that wouldn't take expertise.

And it certainly is power creep. If everyone takes this feat (and who wouldn't?), then basically every class in the game just got a +1 attack bonus across the board. That's the very definition of power creep.

Meh. I probably wouldn't. I can think of far more interesting things to spend a feat slot on.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
More interesting - possibly. More powerful - hardly. That's why the posters before you call it power creep and not interest creep.
A general feat that gives unconditional +1 hit bonus with one implement or weapon group is completely retarded in the 4E context.
Its not dangerously close to a feat that's "so good that everyone will take", it is better than feat that's "so good that everyone (except Salla) will take".

Has anyone considered the possibility that this feat only benefits at-will attacks? That will put it more in line.
I guess I'm the only one that thinks "Oh, a feat to give +1 to hit... guess I can go ahead and spread my ability points out for good defense and still be able to hit often enough" before I think "sweet, now my completely maxed out attack bonus is higher!"

The feats look like a good idea to me, helps allow players that want reasonable chances of hitting with their powers to not feel pushed towards complete "min/max" ability score spreads.

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Oh gee... this new PHBV feat for +5 attack and +10 damage with all attacks that involve rolling a die is so sweet and balanced. Now I can play my 13 Str / 12 Int Fighter/Wizard and still be useful...

Just NO.

Just because you can try hard and think of not overpowered use for overpowered feat does not make the feat less overpowered or less of a power creep.

A feat that really helps suboptimal characters is only balanced if it doesn't help optimal characters just the same.
Compare Helfire Blood to weapon/implement expertise and you will see what I mean.

Having said that - we still don't know what exactly the feat do, so discussion whether the sky is falling or not is a bit pointless.
I think you are all jumping the gun a bit on calling a heroic feat that grants +1 attack bonus power creep. Do people call foul at the fighters one-handed and two-handed weapon talents?

No, but that was a feature of the fighter - it was one of the things that made him special.

You could argue that it's like handing out a feat that gives everybody the class feature of another class - even if it stacks for the original class, it sounds suspicious.

Personally, I don't think it's overpowered, so just a couple of thoughts on that:

1) Is close to a must have, which sort of annoys me. Makes feats more combat relevant than they are now, makes it harder to justify some side feats on skills or languages and so on.
2) The designers probably realised that they overvalued hitting (see podcast, see Sure Strike/Careful Strike) a little bit too much, so that's probably a "fix" to their old perspective.
3) Helps with the sour taste you often get when you miss with encounters/dailies. Probably another reason why it was put out - will help with the "grind" phenomenon, as you hit a little more often and get the funky entertaining effects a little more often.

-> Looks more like a fix than like creep (one could argue it's deliberate creep to bring things up par... but that's even more semantics).

Cheers, LT.
Then they should have added some form of optional action point mechanic for people who enjoy hitting more often and fixed sure strike / careful strike then... instead of this.
Expertise is basically the following feat:
Awesome
Requirement: PHBII
Benefit: Your character is now simply better.
Special: You must be fool not to take that feat.

It basically removes your first level feat from the game and replaces it with no choice bonus.
It also punishes balanced characters even more - you want to use swords in melee and bow at range? Tough luck. Unless you remove 2 out of your feats from the game, because unlike weapon focus this is a must have.

Just look how many of the premade character sheets that are floating around (those for the avenger, barbarian, sorcerer etc) have this feat.

Bringing things up on par will be:
"DMs should reduce all the NPC defenses in all WOTC core books and supplements published before 01.02.2009 by 1. Also the errata of Sure Strike, Careful Attack and Wand of Accuracy is below..."
You DONT fix general system problems with feats, you fix them by fixing the system. You can boost tiefling fighters with a feat or two, because they are suboptimal yet desired archetype. You should not boost ALL CHARACTERS with a single feat.
Unless these feats have some serious restrictions, they will not see any use at my table.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
I have to agree with the above two posts. Weapon & Implement Expertise are far from sexy, but it's hard to say no to them. Hellfire Blood is now super niche- it gives the tiefling an extra +1 damage if he uses a specific weapon. Nimble Blade used to be a feat you pick early and use to get that extra edge. Now you just get the extra edge. Weapon Talent Fighters are also less attractive now- if you were on the margin before, you are pushed toward whichever of the other builds you like.

Implement Expertise may actually be OK, since some of the casters in PH1 still have a little trouble hitting consistently, in my experience. Perhaps this is because weapon users are often in melee and can get combat advantage. Weapon Expertise is a big buzzkill for me right now though. This PH2 stuff is awesome, but I really don't like it when a feat is this much better than other feats.

If this were pushed back to Paragon or Epic, I would be OK with it, however, since monster defense scaling does outpace PC attack scaling by a bit. Putting this stuff in Heroic is just mind-boggling.

truth/humor
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves.

 

iserith: The game doesn't profess to be "just like our world." What it is just like is the world of Dungeons & Dragons. Any semblance to reality is purely coincidental.

 

Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?

 

TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon. A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.

Weapon Talent Fighters are also less attractive now- if you were on the margin before, you are pushed toward whichever of the other builds you like.

If it stacks the WTF are just as attractive as before. You can never have to many hit bonuses, so when everyone now has their +1,the WTF has his +2.

To the general topic: I agree, absolute must have feat
Implement Expertise is an absolute must have feat!!!!!

Show
Just like Toughness, Weapon Focus/Elemental boost feats, Improved Initiative, and various other feats that are crucial to certain optimized builds(i.e. Wintertouched and Lasting Frost for Frost Mages/Rogues).
Dark Sun DM starting October 18th 2010 Level 4 Tiefling Orbizard Level 3 Tiefling Telepath Psion

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D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - D&D Compendium

If it stacks the WTF are just as attractive as before. You can never have to many hit bonuses, so when everyone now has their +1,the WTF has his +2.

To the general topic: I agree, absolute must have feat

More bonuses = more better, but it's all about trade-offs and how you pay for things. For a little while now, we've been playing WT fighters (WTFs... nice) and liking them. Along comes the Battlerager and we consider how the healing balances with the lack of FWT. But if we can make up for that lack with a feat, the WT fighter has that much less going for him.

We certainly can't make up for the lack of all those temp hps with a feat. That's still a unique feature that can only be obtained one way. Sure, the Battlerager is still 1 point behind the maximum attack bonus. But attack bonus just became a lot cheaper. Instead of paying with a class feature, you can now pay with a feat, which is a much more common currency.

truth/humor
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves.

 

iserith: The game doesn't profess to be "just like our world." What it is just like is the world of Dungeons & Dragons. Any semblance to reality is purely coincidental.

 

Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?

 

TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon. A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.

Don't worry - it is probably only usable by player who have paid wizards the money and actually purchased the PHB2. PHB2! Now with free +1 to hit!

Seriously though, it is a pretty important feat, sure, but I don't know if I'd actually say it is either game breaking or vital for the average player. Strictly speaking, anyone on these boards is either completely clueless or a power-gamer (the ratio here is somewhat unfortunate, but hey, at least it gives us power gamers a way to show how smart we are). For power gamers, there will always be ways to min-max characters and new combinations that are going to 'break the game' if anyone ever uses it.

Basically, I'm saying that if you are breaking out the calculators when building your character, you may not be the average player. As said above, this feat is fine for helping someone feel a bit more powerful. If you REALLY don't like it, have it banned from your table. Now, if the PHB5 actually has the feat Merchant of Shadows suggested... then I'll bow to the cries of the power gamer.
I may be wrong, but I think this Feat only gives bonuses to basic attacks or At-Will Powers.
Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But the good name never dies of one who has done well. Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But I know one thing that never dies: the glory of the great dead. - [i]Hávamál[/i] D&D 4th Edition Bard builds: The Dashing Swordsman, The Master of Sound and Illusions, The Warrior Skald Captain Morality! (No point in not having fun with it. )
All the listed barbarian powers in the sample sheet were at +10 vs AC. I'd assume that it isn't just BAs and At-Wills. Here is the full page and all the information on all the character sheets: http://www.hordelings.com/forums/postView.php?post_id=177811&viewPage=0#177811
All the listed barbarian powers in the sample sheet were at +10 vs AC. I'd assume that it isn't just BAs and At-Wills. Here is the full page and all the information on all the character sheets: http://www.hordelings.com/forums/postView.php?post_id=177811&viewPage=0#177811

I sure hope there's a limitation somewhere that causes people to not consider using it.

Otherwise double-implement users or multi-class characters (esp CHA paladins) are so screwed with this rule: They already have to pay for 2 implements, this feat is making them even less optimal.
This feat is far better than anything else we have seen before. Before, feats that gave attack bonuses used to have a certain condition (like nimble blade, where you need combat advantage). Now, weapon expertise makes these feats completely obsolete. I can't believe I actually trusted WotC when they promised to keep power creep down in this edition
Is the feat as it stands now final, or can we hope that they'll adjust some things before PHB2 release?

Because this needs to be changed one way or another.
I really hope WotC does change it, otherwise I'm going to be sorely disappointed
Yeah, I'm kind of annoyed by this one. Unless it is much different than it appears, or has some sort of tradeoff, this seems like a very basic feat. The type of feat which would be included in a PH1, specifically. It's the kind of feat which many, many starting characters might choose, so it's very odd to introduce it months after people have started playing the game.

I had high hopes that PH2 would focus almost entirely on the new classes, introducing them, giving them lots of powers, and only introducing feats for them, and for multiclassing into them.

That was what I liked about the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide. I felt like the feats (while usable elsewhere, with modifications) were really there for Forgotten Realms characters (and drow and genasi), and were not there just to provide more feat choices for everyone.

It becomes a real problem for me when there are more feats that accurately fit my character conception than I can possibly choose. I like for there to be a lot of good choices, so that many characters are different. It seems like Weapon Expertise is one that it is really obvious for most builds to take. I don't think any feat should be an excellent pick for almost every build. If it that good, then it's too good to be a feat. Feats need to be more situationally useful, in my own opinion. Presenting some feats which are really consistently good for every build means that either all of the characters start to resemble each other, or you have to trade off effectiveness for distinctiveness. I feel that well designed feats allow you to be equally effective, but distinct from other characters.

Who knows? Maybe weapon expertise has some drawbacks we don't know about.
This feat is far better than anything else we have seen before. Before, feats that gave attack bonuses used to have a certain condition (like nimble blade, where you need combat advantage). Now, weapon expertise makes these feats completely obsolete. I can't believe I actually trusted WotC when they promised to keep power creep down in this edition

Yep, this does really suck the wind out of all the other "specialized" feats which gave a feat bonus. Hopefully there are some sorts of specialized requirements or drawbacks to it, because otherwise, it really shoves a lot of other feats right off the plate.

In addition, as someone has mentioned, the ONLY thing that the Battlerager lost over a Weapon Talent Fighter is the +1 to hit. Now the Battlerager seems like a complete no-brainer over the WT fighter. Spend a feat, and you get everything the WT fighter has, plus all of these extra rules! You can still wear heavy armor if you want! You can still use any weapons you want! You have the same Attack rolls, but you also get all of these temporary hit points, too!

Also, if you'll notice, the Barbarian, Avenger, Invoker, and Sorcerer all have Weapon or Implement Expertise. If the pregenerated characters almost all have the same feat, it's probably too good. WOTC wrote the rules, and even they seem to think it's an automatic pick. I think only the Warforged didn't take it. What would you think of a feat that 4 out of 5 characters in the party took at first level? I mean, I really like both Toughness and Durable, but in our group, only two people took Toughness, and one of those got it free as a Two Weapon Ranger.
Yep, this does really suck the wind out of all the other "specialized" feats which gave a feat bonus. Hopefully there are some sorts of specialized requirements or drawbacks to it, because otherwise, it really shoves a lot of other feats right off the plate.

In addition, as someone has mentioned, the ONLY thing that the Battlerager lost over a Weapon Talent Fighter is the +1 to hit. Now the Battlerager seems like a complete no-brainer over the WT fighter. Spend a feat, and you get everything the WT fighter has, plus all of these extra rules! You can still wear heavy armor if you want! You can still use any weapons you want! You have the same Attack rolls, but you also get all of these temporary hit points, too!

Well technically the WT fighter still has +1 as he can take weapon expertise as well, but there is the law of diminishing returns with to hit bonuses.
Also, if you'll notice, the Barbarian, Avenger, Invoker, and Sorcerer all have Weapon or Implement Expertise. If the pregenerated characters almost all have the same feat, it's probably too good. WOTC wrote the rules, and even they seem to think it's an automatic pick. I think only the Warforged didn't take it. What would you think of a feat that 4 out of 5 characters in the party took at first level? I mean, I really like both Toughness and Durable, but in our group, only two people took Toughness, and one of those got it free as a Two Weapon Ranger.

Barbarian, Avenger, and sorcerer are strikers, and so far there isn't a lot of good feats for controllers to take, so I am not as concerned about that, at least until I see the full text on the conditions.
I guess it will have limitations, but I'm not sure. I was too thinking about role limitations, but apart from being a limitation still unheard of, it doesn't seem right because a feat callded Weapon Expertise not available to Fighters would raise too many eyebrows, apart from giving fighter's increased precision to everyone.

I don't know... The only limitation I could think about is "usable until bloodied" or similar limitation depending on you staying out of problems... But I don't know, from what we've seen it appears to be really a static bonus.

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Campaigns and Characters:
Zendikar: Covenant of The Forgotten Relics
- Cylonea: Merfolk (Elemental Priest) Shaman(World Speaker)/Artificer --> Sheet, Obsidian Portal's, Fluff
- Vurokk Dahvre: Shade (Escaped Slave) Blackguard of Fury --> Sheet, Obsidian Portal's, Fluff, Blogs (1, 2)
Nature's Allies
- Carwyn Sihderfein: Half-Elf (Tuathan) Blackguard of Domination / Binder of Gloom --> Sheet, Fluff, Blogs (1, 2)

maybe it is a new multi class fighter feat: gain +1 to hit with one weapon or implment and count as a fighter for power swap feats...


edit: I feel even if it is just +1 att...it is fine. I feel that wotc was to stingey with attack bonuses...I have been playing the LFR and Delves, and I find in a group with out a warlord very little is giving for bonuses to hit, and as such the basic math breaks down sometimes...I do agree it should have been in PHB1, but I think they were playing it safe...tooo safe. but that is IMHO

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

Seems like a simple +1 to attack rolls with x Weapon/Implement. They should have placed this feat in PHB 1
Seems like a simple +1 to attack rolls with x Weapon/Implement. They should have placed this feat in PHB 1

I think they thought they wouldn't have such a feat, but here a year later they realize it wont be as powerful as they thought...

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

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