All PHBII Races and Classes Confirmed?

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With a recent piece of info that was just recently revealed, it is possible that we may have names(and easy to guess power sources) for all classes and races to appear in the PHBII. Here is a quick run down of what they appear to be along with links to where the information about them came from.

Races
Deva
Gnome
Goliath
Half-Orc

Shifter

Classes
Avenger(Divine(?) Striker(?))
Barbarian(Primal Striker)
Bard(Arcane Leader)
Druid(Primal Controller(?))
Invoker(Divine(?) Controller(?))
Shaman(Primal(?) Leader)
Sorcerer(Arcane Controller)
Warden(Primal(?) Defender(?))

So what does everyone think? Good list? Bad list? Incorrect? They need to start giving us PHBIII clues?.....Well ok that last one isn't so much a question, as a demmand. *shrugs*
Interesting about the Avenger and Invoker. Not sure what the Avenger would be as it sounds like it'd likely be a striker and I guess Divine but it's hard to say. It honestly sounds more like a paragon path than a class.

Invoker is likely the 'more spellcastery cleric' they talked about and will likely be a controller but could potentially be a leader or striker.

Deva was pretty much a given considering multiple posts, teasers, and the fact that the only race we didn't have combinations of based on the letter game was De.
With a recent piece of info that was just recently revealed, it is possible that we may have names(and easy to guess power sources) for all classes and races to appear in the PHBII. Here is a quick run down of what they appear to be along with links to where the information about them came from.

Races
Deva
Gnome
Goliath
Half-Orc

Shifter

Classes
Avenger(Divine(?) Striker(?))
Barbarian(Primal Striker)
Bard(Arcane Leader)
Druid(Primal ?)
Invoker(Divine(?) Controller(?))
Shaman(Primal(?) Leader)
Sorcerer(Arcane Controller)
Warden(Primal(?) Defender(?))

So what does everyone think? Good list? Bad list? Incorrect? They need to start giving us PHBIII clues?.....Well ok that last one isn't so much a question, as a demmand. *shrugs*

Nope, I still don't believe it. I don't want to believe it. I liked "Inquisitor" and "Theurge".

There's better names that could have been picked than "Avenger" and "Invoker". "Invoker" is too much like "Evocation" (Primal powers) for me, and "Avenger" was the name of a Druidic (read: Primal) variant class in 3E, not to mention that there's already an "Angelic Avenger" (Cleric Paragon Path) for "Avenger" to get confused with.

I'm still crossing my fingers on this one.

EDIT: FWIW, it's "Avenger" that really bugs me. I could handle "Invoker" as a Divine Controller.
I followed your links, but I didn't see any references to Avengers or Invokers in the attached post (but I might have missed them).

Wasn't there supposed to be a 'T' class in there?
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I followed your links, but I didn't see any references to Avengers or Invokers in the attached post (but I might have missed them).

Wasn't there supposed to be a 'T' class in there?

page two of the character sheet, look at his companions.
I mentioned this in another thread but i had a WotC freelance author at my table for weekend at the realms. He mentioned "Invoker" in passing when we were talking about the PHB2 but quickly shut his yap since he's not allowed to really talk about future releases.
Wasn't there supposed to be a 'T' class in there?

There was. But there wasn't suppose to be an 'A' class. Given how long ago we got the letter clues, I'm assuming the 'T' class was swapped out (or renamed) to the 'A' class.

Considering Avenger is likely a Divine Striker, I believe that the 'T' class was a Templar which was also a Divine Striker. I believe they renamed it because of developments with the third campaign to be released which I believe to be Dark Sun :P

What am I basing all this on? Mostly my imagination ;)
Avenger sounds like a striker to me
I know it's way too late for WotC to make changes to the book, but I'd still have liked to see Sorcerers as Primal Controllers. Controllers are rare enough without putting both of them in the Arcane power source. It's not about grid-filling, it's that for the four power sources of the Core Books, there are only three controllers, two of which are Arcane. It seems a little unbalanced. I think I might house-rule Sorcerers as Primal, unless there is a mechanical reason for them to remain Arcane.
there will be a primal controller, so its either 2 arcane, or 2 primal :/ we may have a divine controller as well! but we doon't know enough. It seems that each of teh core power sources will have 4 "PHB" classes, and if they stick to a pattern, they'll have a single role that they fill twice (like martial has two strikers).
I know it's way too late for WotC to make changes to the book, but I'd still have liked to see Sorcerers as Primal Controllers. Controllers are rare enough without putting both of them in the Arcane power source. It's not about grid-filling, it's that for the four power sources of the Core Books, there are only three controllers, two of which are Arcane. It seems a little unbalanced. I think I might house-rule Sorcerers as Primal, unless there is a mechanical reason for them to remain Arcane.

Currently, rumour is that PH2 will contain possibly three different controllers:

Sorcerer Arcane Controller (Confirmed)
Druid Primal Controller (Speculated)
Invoker :cry: Divine Controller (Speculated)

I'm not sure if or how this may change your plans. Obviously, it could still be inaccurate, and you still have final say in your own game at home.
Nope, I still don't believe it. I don't want to believe it. I liked "Inquisitor" and "Theurge".

There's better names that could have been picked than "Avenger" and "Invoker". "Invoker" is too much like "Evocation" (Primal powers) for me, and "Avenger" was the name of a Druidic (read: Primal) variant class in 3E, not to mention that there's already an "Angelic Avenger" (Cleric Paragon Path) for "Avenger" to get confused with.

I'm still crossing my fingers on this one.

EDIT: FWIW, it's "Avenger" that really bugs me. I could handle "Invoker" as a Divine Controller.

I agree with you completely. Avenger is a horrible class name. However it appears that we are stuck with it. Although I personally never liked Theruge. I was personally sort of hoping for Inquisitor(stiker) and Templar(controller).
...It's not about grid-filling...
...It seems a little unbalanced...

You don't think those statements contradict each other? :P
Because I most definitely think they do. There is no problem with having two arcane controllers. That's like saying there's a problems with having two martial strikers.

I think I might house-rule Sorcerers as Primal, unless there is a mechanical reason for them to remain Arcane.

There shouldn't be any mechanical reason to, no, but why make Sorcerer Primal? That makes no sense. Their powers don't come from nature. Their power comes from the arcane blood they've inherited from their arcane ancestors (Dragons, Elementals, Fey, Genies, and so on...).

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I like Templar better than Avenger as well, but then I liked Marshall better than Warlord
I like Templar better than Avenger as well, but then I liked Marshall better than Warlord

Yep, this keeps reminding me of the polls we'd see a year ago: "What do you think of the name 'Warlord'?"

I still don't like the name "Avenger". :P
I still don't like the name "Avenger". :P

but its been my favorite comic for decades
but its been my favorite comic for decades

lol It's fine for a comic name. It's got too much baggage to be a class name, I think.
I fully expect at least 3 different people at my store will try to make avengers named sasuke.....
Not to get technical, it does confirm there's a class called the avenger, but it doesn't necessarily confirm there's a class called the avenger in the PHBII. But that's also the case with the Invoker, Warden and Shaman.
avenger makes me think of cyrean avenger from 3.5... so it could be eberron.
Not to get technical, it does confirm there's a class called the avenger, but it doesn't necessarily confirm there's a class called the avenger in the PHBII. But that's also the case with the Invoker, Warden and Shaman.

Good point! It reminds me that part of why "Avenger" bugs me so much is that I keep thinking it's being used in place of a better name for a one of the Divine classes. OTOH, I can see it as a Primal class; maybe Avenger isn't Divine at all. Perhaps we've had "Warden" all wrong, too; maybe the Warden is a Divine class? I don't know, I'm just wildly speculated to justify my feelings. (I could be right!)

Then again, maybe they've just based the class on you, bro. :P

avenger makes me think of cyrean avenger from 3.5... so it could be eberron.

As much as I'd love to agree with you, it strikes me as extremely unlikely, Serphet.
Perhaps we've had "Warden" all wrong, too; maybe the Warden is a Divine class?

I could definitely see Warden as a divine controller. When I first hear Warden I tend to think of a Ranger-like class. But a Divine Warden would definitely be cool.
As soon as i make an avenger i'm going to find ways to tweek out as much acid damage as i can and he'll wield a mop (polearm).
lol It's fine for a comic name. It's got too much baggage to be a class name, I think.

Honestly I have issues with the name Avengers for a superhero team because they aren't really Avenging anything, they are just protecting people and the universe from stuff. The Avengers should be going out an extracting vengence on people or something.
As much as I'd love to agree with you, it strikes me as extremely unlikely, Serphet.

I think it unlikely to, however, what other book would they release a class in? PHB's and player's guide to to X are the only books that classes have come out in so far. A was not a letter given for PHB classes (so either it's changed, or something else)
Good point! It reminds me that part of why "Avenger" bugs me so much is that I keep thinking it's being used in place of a better name for a one of the Divine classes. OTOH, I can see it as a Primal class; maybe Avenger isn't Divine at all. Perhaps we've had "Warden" all wrong, too; maybe the Warden is a Divine class? I don't know, I'm just wildly speculated to justify my feelings. (I could be right!)

Then again, maybe they've just based the class on you, bro. :P

As much as I'd love to agree with you, it strikes me as extremely unlikely, Serphet.

Oh come on now, I'm no more happy with this development than you are, but you just need to face facts. Invoker and Avenger are the new divine classes. There is no solid evidence, but you know it true. You just don't want to admit it. This is no better than the Doppleganger incident from a few months ago. The sooner you accept it, the sooner I can stop having to worry about a redux of that happening. And making me happy should be your primary goal in life.:P

However as some evidence, although admitedly not very much, just take a look at the all the race-class combos in the companion list(plus the race and class of the char sheet itself). Do you notice anything about them at all? Anything at all along the lines that every single one of the race/class combos is a complete stereotype(with a possible exceptions of the half-elf cleric and human fighter because I'm not sure if there is a stereotyped half-elf class and humans have multiple stereotypes). Elf? Ranger. Dragonborn? Fighter. Tiefling? Warlock. Now what type of classes would Aasimars v4.0 be associated with?

So Avengers are simply going to be Inquisitors with a stupider name that is easier to spell. Likely they went with Avenger because Inquisitor has some nasty images associated with it.
Assuming there is an Avenger class, it is Divine, and it is a Striker, maybe it has extra damage dice that key off of damage being dealt to itself or allies. Since this occurs a lot, I'd guess +1d6. And maybe some variations on something like:
Wis vs Will, Immediate Reaction, Trigger: You or an ally within 5 squares is dealt damage, Hit: Deal damage to the enemy equal to the damage it dealt with the triggering attack. This damage ignores resistance.

To make another mechanical guess, if the Warden is a Primal Defender, maybe it works with a pet to do things like prevent movement when flanking with the pet, and maybe generate marks from the character and the pet.

My last guess is that the Shaman will make more use of the conjuration rules we have, making fairly powerful conjurations that can be attacked and have hp, and use the shaman's actions to move and attack. More useful versions of the cleric conjuration powers we have.
Oh come on now, I'm no more happy with this development than you are, but you just need to face facts. Invoker and Avenger are the new divine classes. There is no solid evidence, but you know it true. You just don't want to admit it. This is no better than the Doppleganger incident from a few months ago. The sooner you accept it, the sooner I can stop having to worry about a redux of that happening. And making me happy should be your primary goal in life.:P

However as some evidence, although admitedly not very much, just take a look at the all the race-class combos in the companion list(plus the race and class of the char sheet itself). Do you notice anything about them at all? Anything at all along the lines that every single one of the race/class combos is a complete stereotype(with a possible exceptions of the half-elf cleric and human fighter because I'm not sure if there is a stereotyped half-elf class and humans have multiple stereotypes). Elf? Ranger. Dragonborn? Fighter. Tiefling? Warlock. Now what type of classes would Aasimars v4.0 be associated with?

So Avengers are simply going to be Inquisitors with a stupider name that is easier to spell. Likely they went with Avenger because Inquisitor has some nasty images associated with it.

lol You're a funny guy, Ranadiel. :P That said, I'm going to hold out until solid evidence proves me wrong, just like I did with "D = Doppelganger!" and "Barbarian is a Primal Defender!" (Hey, I did guess "W = Warden!" way ahead of schedule, though.)

Come to think of it, I might be starting to think of this speculating game as as much fun as D&D! It's pretty fun, after all.
lol You're a funny guy, Ranadiel. :P That said, I'm going to hold out until solid evidence proves me wrong, just like I did with "D = Doppelganger!" and "Barbarian is a Primal Defender!" (Hey, I did guess "W = Warden!" way ahead of schedule, though.)

Come to think of it, I might be starting to think of this speculating game as as much fun as D&D! It's pretty fun, after all.

Need I point out that every time you hold out, I have ended up winning?:P I converted to Deva well before it was revealed. I was always in the Barbarian=Primal Striker camp. And I was with you for Warden. And I had silently accepted Invoker around the time Warden was announced. I just have a better track record than you.

And I agree with you on the speculation being as much fun as D&D.:D
Need I point out that every time you hold out, I have ended up winning?:P I converted to Deva well before it was revealed. I was always in the Barbarian=Primal Striker camp. And I was with you for Warden. And I had silently accepted Invoker around the time Warden was announced. I just have a better track record than you.

lol Nope, won't believe this either until it gets officially revealed by WotC. :P

And I agree with you on the speculation being as much fun as D&D.:D

Amen! I can't wait until we start guessing for PH3! :D

(Actually, we already have; there's a 4E Psionics thread where this is already happening. Empath FTW!)
I kinda like the name Avenger. Considering it was originally intended (supposedly) to be Templar, I'm glad that they changed to Avenger, it's more "generic" which I think it's a good thing.

In regards to the Invoker I'm basicly indifferent. I'll save my judgements for when I see it.
With a recent piece of info that was just recently revealed, it is possible that we may have names(and easy to guess power sources) for all classes and races to appear in the PHBII. Here is a quick run down of what they appear to be along with links to where the information about them came from.

Races
Deva
Gnome
Goliath
Half-Orc

Shifter

Classes
Avenger(Divine(?) Striker(?))
Barbarian(Primal Striker)
Bard(Arcane Leader)
Druid(Primal Controller(?))
Invoker(Divine(?) Controller(?))
Shaman(Primal(?) Leader)
Sorcerer(Arcane Controller)
Warden(Primal(?) Defender(?))

So what does everyone think? Good list? Bad list? Incorrect? They need to start giving us PHBIII clues?.....Well ok that last one isn't so much a question, as a demmand. *shrugs*

Ranadiel, let me express my admiration for your diligence. Putting together all those links was great work. Congratulations, and thanks!

I am actually OK with the names, including Avenger (as long as he is actually "avenging" something...) Coming from a country where the Inquisition actually operated for a while in historical times, I can tell you it really irked me to think about a heroic class named after one of the most poorly conceived, cruelest and most racist moneymaking schemes in the history of mediaeval Europe. Good riddance.

I do hope the Templar will be included in the Player's Guide to Dark Sun (implying of course that I really, truly hope that Dark Sun is being brought back --- a piece of speculation that I am hopeful about after finding out that WotC is re-printing Troy Denning's Prism Pentad series).

I agree with you, Ranadiel, in most of your unconfirmed guesses.

Minotaurs as portrayed in the Dragon article don't strike me as particularly religious, so the Warden is pretty surely a Primal class if they favour it.

As to the shaman... I hope that his leaderly powers infuse his allies with the "spirit" of animals, giving them flavourful bonuses (you know, Eagle Sight and Bear's Strength, that sort of thing) and that they don't do as much summoning... I believe it is a good thing that summoning has been reduced to a manageable size in this edition, and would hate to have my all-time favourite class concept to include an unwieldy amount of instant pets in its design. (Plus, real-world shamans don't "summon" anything...)
Currently, rumour is that PH2 will contain possibly three different controllers:

Sorcerer Arcane Controller (Confirmed)
Druid Primal Controller (Speculated)
Invoker :cry: Divine Controller (Speculated)

I'm not sure if or how this may change your plans. Obviously, it could still be inaccurate, and you still have final say in your own game at home.

It would, actually, and for the better. Controllers were underrepresented in PHB I and having a 3rd Controller in PHB II would be IMO a Very Good Thing. Just as there are 2 Martial Strikers, I'm very willing to have 2 Arcane Controllers, as long as players have a couple of other choices.
I have to say, I was hoping for a Swashbuckler. No idea what it would be, but still.....

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Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

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"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

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You don't think those statements contradict each other? :P
Because I most definitely think they do. There is no problem with having two arcane controllers. That's like saying there's a problems with having two martial strikers.

Not really. Those of us who want a Striker but don't want the Martial power source will have the option of a Warlock or Barbarian (and perhaps Avenger). This gives options from multiple other sources. If there are 2 Arcane Controllers and only one other (perhaps the Invoker), then unless you want an Invoker, you're going to draw from the Arcane power source. That would be too limiting.

However - and very happily - a couple of people pointed out the possibility of 3 Controllers in the PHB II. With the Invoker (Divine) and Druid (Primal), there is a variety of power sources to choose from for people who want to play a Controller but don't want to have the Arcane power source. The grid doesn't have to be filled (Martial Controller would be difficult to do, for example), it just needs to be balanced.

Just like every party in 3.x had to have a Cleric (or Druid, as the Druid could fill in for any class), it would have been sad if every 4e party had to have a Wizard (or Druid) just to get a Controller in the group. With Controllers from 3 different power sources in the PHB II, that won't be a problem.

There shouldn't be any mechanical reason to, no, but why make Sorcerer Primal? That makes no sense. Their powers don't come from nature. Their power comes from the arcane blood they've inherited from their arcane ancestors (Dragons, Elementals, Fey, Genies, and so on...).

I'd have made Sorcerer Primal because there's no Elemental power source yet. But yes, if there were, my vision of the Sorcerer would have been Elemental.
page two of the character sheet, look at his companions.

Ah, good eye! Thanks.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I'd have made Sorcerer Primal because there's no Elemental power source yet. But yes, if there were, my vision of the Sorcerer would have been Elemental.

. . . And why does Elemental make more sense than Arcane exactly?
Honestly, I'm not really seeing the point of the Elemental power source in general so far. What does it do that Arcane doesn't?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I agree with crimson, the fluff of a sorc is similar to that of a warlock. Except that instead of making a pact with a magical being, you are a descendant form a magical being.
. . . And why does Elemental make more sense than Arcane exactly?
Honestly, I'm not really seeing the point of the Elemental power source in general so far. What does it do that Arcane doesn't?

We won't know until we start seeing previews. I don't see a point to the Primal power source, either, but it's there and, evidently, some people like it.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
We won't know until we start seeing previews. I don't see a point to the Primal power source, either, but it's there and, evidently, some people like it.

Animals! Weather! Natural disasters! It's magic with a very narrow theme.
Animals! Weather! Natural disasters! It's magic with a very narrow theme.

So, why's the Barbarian primal instead of martial?

More to the point, again, the power sources are largely fluff. I can't see why the Druid can't be divine or arcane. The whole 'nature magic' thing doesn't sink in for me.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.