a book i would like to see

10 posts / 0 new
Last post
I posted this under general discussion, but it will be better here i was told.

Although i love what they did with the fighting in the 4th edition, it is much more exciting, faster, and easily played out, i think they are focusing too much on combat. They seem to want you to forget about the rest and just skip to the combat. I'm a dnd player for a very long time and we used to play to go on adventures, not play to fight. Its kind of like playing a video game rpg and only playing the random encounters, that would suck. My favorite part of the 4th edition is the non-combat encounters, they put some thought into something other than fighting which is nice.
So back on topic, i thought a book that talks about how to play out the parts of the game when you are in towns and cities. For example it could have lists and lists of games to play while you are in a bar that utilizes your skills such as dart throwing and card playing. Other things that could happen like performers coming etc....Here is an example of how we used to play, we would make a big map of a town (only the most important parts as it is impossible to map everything) and our characters would take their turns (just like in a dungeon) doing the things they wanted to do. we used to wander around to find a shop to buy equipment and it was all part of the adventure. Now it seems like when you go to a town all you have to do is say, "i'm spending x amount on supplies and lets move on to the next dungeon to fight." There is no feeling of adventure in that. They say to skip the boring parts but i think it would be better to make the parts that they say are boring more fun, and bring them to life at the table.
sorry to rant but i just wish there was more of an adventure feel like there used to be.
My feeling is that it is up for the players and DM to decide how they want to do it. Personally, I use a system much like the one you describe. I draw up a map and the PCs take turns going places in the town and talking to people.

However, I feel this is a role-playing heavy part of the game and it does not need rules. I think rules could make something like this cumbersome and take longer than it already does. In a role-playing heavy group, something like this comes naturally. Rules are not going to make people who don't role-play start role-playing.
i understand that, but it would be good to have some sort of guidline for those of us who aren't as good at it but don't want to skip those parts. No rules in dnd are written in stone and if one group doesn't want to use those guidlines they wouldn't have to.
I posted this under general discussion, but it will be better here i was told.

Although i love what they did with the fighting in the 4th edition, it is much more exciting, faster, and easily played out, i think they are focusing too much on combat. They seem to want you to forget about the rest and just skip to the combat. I'm a dnd player for a very long time and we used to play to go on adventures, not play to fight. Its kind of like playing a video game rpg and only playing the random encounters, that would suck. My favorite part of the 4th edition is the non-combat encounters, they put some thought into something other than fighting which is nice.
So back on topic, i thought a book that talks about how to play out the parts of the game when you are in towns and cities. For example it could have lists and lists of games to play while you are in a bar that utilizes your skills such as dart throwing and card playing. Other things that could happen like performers coming etc....Here is an example of how we used to play, we would make a big map of a town (only the most important parts as it is impossible to map everything) and our characters would take their turns (just like in a dungeon) doing the things they wanted to do. we used to wander around to find a shop to buy equipment and it was all part of the adventure. Now it seems like when you go to a town all you have to do is say, "i'm spending x amount on supplies and lets move on to the next dungeon to fight." There is no feeling of adventure in that. They say to skip the boring parts but i think it would be better to make the parts that they say are boring more fun, and bring them to life at the table.
sorry to rant but i just wish there was more of an adventure feel like there used to be.

That's one of the major "misunderstandings" 4E has floating around, imho. Just because it's no longer in the books, doesn't automatically mean you're forbidden from using that. I mean, why should all the shops you were browsing earlier suddenly disappear just because there's no line in the PH that tells you how much a hammer costs? Or a saw? Or a bunch of nails?

4E does not discourage roleplaying. In my opinion, it does the contrary, it encourages roleplaying because it doesn't try to hammer everything down with stats and numbers and skill ranks.

Regarding "skipping the boring parts", there's nothing in the books stopping your character from going "Hey, we just made it through the troll lair. I'm spending the next week and 1400gp on wine, women, and song. See you later, pals!" However, having to track amounts measured in coppers or silvers for each day while you're in a city when you pay shop owners exclusively in platinum pieces is a bit of a drag. Good meal here, stay at an average inn there, taxes this, cloth repairs that, etc. It's just not necessary, or adding to the game imho.

What games were played in a tavern, or what performers are on stage, and stuff like that is basically up to the DM. While I understand what you're trying to say (that it'd be nice for novice or time-challenged DMs to have some default lists for that kind of things), I don't think that something like that should necessarily be in the Core books.

Perhaps this or this may be good starting points. Here are some suggestions for games (and if you have Inn-Fighting, or Three-Dragon Ante, you can use these for games played "in" the game).

If you look around the web for a bit, you'll find countless inspirations of what you could add to your games, as well as several random generators for taverns/npcs/shops/books/whatyouwant that can save you some time - if you can live with sometimes silly or outright contradicting results. ;)

// Edit:
You may want to take a look at the Tools Archive from the DnD homepage. There are some nice generators in there. :D
That's one of the major "misunderstandings" 4E has floating around, imho. Just because it's no longer in the books, doesn't automatically mean you're forbidden from using that. I mean, why should all the shops you were browsing earlier suddenly disappear just because there's no line in the PH that tells you how much a hammer costs? Or a saw? Or a bunch of nails?

4E does not discourage roleplaying. In my opinion, it does the contrary, it encourages roleplaying because it doesn't try to hammer everything down with stats and numbers and skill ranks.

But the same we can say about combat ... why use some rules, we would be encouraged more to fight without hammered rules and numbers...

For me DnD moves from adventuring to strategy games ... every moment in 4E combats I had a feelings that there should be some supervisor above our group moving our characters like in some strategy board game ... yea, I know, minis ... I think that for that purpose, rules are ok and groups which like this part of fantasy games would be happy ... we will se if that is majority among community ...

As I saw illusionist pdf on WotC pages, yea, pretty sure all other classes will be the same ... there is no escape for designers if they want to stay with their so-called-balanced system ... with your at-will you will cause about 1d6+stat, doesn't matter you are fighter, wizard, psion, rogue ...

So I don't think there will be any *non-combat* orientated book soon, or ever ... new 4E is not aimed at people wanting that, and just one book like that cannot persuade those, who don't like new concept ...
People seem to think that just because the rules are devoted mostly to combat that that's all the game wants to cover. That isn't true. As has been pointed out roleplaying actions such as moving about town are best handled through roleplaying and not more rules.

In the H1 Keep on the Shadowfell there is quite a bit of effort put into fleshing out Winterhaven as a town. To facilitate roleplaying and interaction with several important characters. WotC hasn't abandoned roleplaying. They just haven't written rules for it because it doesn't need it.
But the same we can say about combat ... why use some rules, we would be encouraged more to fight without hammered rules and numbers...[...]

No, clearly not. Combat is the only thing that must be described in a mathematical way. And that's not restricted to DnD. No matter what "traditional" rpg you look at (Shadowrun, The Dark Eye, World of Darkness, EarthDawn, ...), combat is pretty much the only thing that's given hard solid rules.

Because if you didn't, combat would devolve into a "you're dead" - "no I'm not" - "yes you are, you stood in the fireball" - "no i'm not, I had fire resistance up" - "no you didn't, you didn't cast it" - "yes I did...".

As I saw illusionist pdf on WotC pages, yea, pretty sure all other classes will be the same ... there is no escape for designers if they want to stay with their so-called-balanced system ... with your at-will you will cause about 1d6+stat, doesn't matter you are fighter, wizard, psion, rogue ...

Please show me how to play a frontline tank wizard. What powers and feats do you take? What armor do you wear? Thanks.

You can't? Well, I think your "all classes are the same" complaint doesn't hold that much water after all.

So I don't think there will be any *non-combat* orientated book soon, or ever ... new 4E is not aimed at people wanting that, and just one book like that cannot persuade those, who don't like new concept ...

Now, how much did 3.5 have to aid that? Three skills? A bunch of useless and horribly underpowered feats? Yeah, great...
actually 3.5 didn't have the feel either. The last time I got a true adventure feel while being in town or traveling was back in the 2nd edition. Like i originally posted, these wouldn't be rules to live by like the fighting rules are, which i agree need to be followed. It would just be a book of guidlines to help those parts feel more like part of the adventure, feel more like your character is actually taking place in what is going on during those parts.
I don't see WotC doing a book like this, but I'm sure at least one 3rd party publisher will. That is, after all, what the GSL is for.

Why? I just don't think what you're describing would appeal to enough players. Taking a lot of time describing what individuals do in town doesn't sound very exciting to me. If you're group goes for that, fine, but it sure isn't the norm!

As for 4e being non-stop combat over adventure... you're doing it wrong. 4e handles 90% of the things adventurers do, both in and out of combat. IMO, that last 10% is better handled by good DMing and real roleplaying.
No, a book is not a good idea. I have seen attempts to capture the social and mundane in references, and I feel they always leave things out or miss the point.

Non-combat encounters are too fluid to attempt to tie them to any references. This is the where the adventure modules, magazine articles, and community forums come into play. It is here and in Dungeon where we should look to expand non-combat details and suggest methodology for certain situations.

The Dungeon Master's Guide has provided us with guidance (as the word suggests) and I am sure future iterations will expand on that guidance, but rules, lists, and tables caters to the gaming mentality vice the role playing mentality.

Phil.