How about wizards that can cast spells?

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I have read through the entire 4th edition PHB. All I have to say is what happened to the wizards?

This was a main problem I had with 3 and 3.5, the wizards were reduced to using mostly scrolls and other magic item. I mean can you actually visualize what a wizard would have to go through to find that scroll or magic item he needs, it would take at least one to two arounds to find the correct item in this backpack!

What I would like to see is the return of the Wizards from 2nd edition, you know the one I am talking about, the one that could stop entire army! Allowing wizards to have spells is not a bad thing when you considered one good fighter can easy take it down.

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Oh and just a reminder this is not a card game it is a roll playing game, some of these rules are way too restrictive! Come on, everyone should know what their rolls are when playing, you don’t need to create special groups.
many peopels do NOT want their 'meager' non-wizards reduced to uselessness due to the blasting god. Or non-CODs.

Also, the powers are spells. Chat blanc, blanc chat. Semantic. Also, rituals.

Amusing that you say that the rules are too restrictives, as you seems to have played 2nd ed.
Wizards stopping entire armies... heh. I bet his 2e wizard never bothered to roll for his Chance to Know Spell percentage for each spell.

Heck, even 2e watered that down from 1e: when you reached a new spell level, you rolled your Int-based percentage (from the table) for each spell in the book of that level, and if you blew your roll, you could NEVER learn that spell (never as in ever), barring extremely rare permanent Int change, which the DM didn't have to hand out at all, or researching it yourself. One MU I had never learned Fireball. In 2e you could roll for failed spells each time your character gained a level, and of course in 3.x you just got a minimum of two every level, no matter what.

It was the Great Equalizer and IMO the reason 3.x spellcasters were so out of control. Even a level 20 Magic-User could just be humped if he rolled poorly and wasn't able to change his Int. Course, there were a lot of ways to just be humped in 1e
I think that the idea of the game was to create a game where all of the races had some advantage over the other but was not more powerful than another. They also did the same with the classes. They made you less likely to die as a low level character... i.e. a 1st level MU with a con of 10 getting hit by gnome with a dagger and being dead right out of the gate. Now, characters and GMs don't have to be as careful at the beginning of the campaigns and don't have to throw ridiculous things at you at the end of the campaign due to the limited upper level of HPs. They have also created a greater need for characters to work together and cooperate.

I also think that the rituals will allow for more of the bigger "spells" but not just casting things here and there and everywhere.
I actually like the feel of the new wizard. Mainly because he can always cast some spells, albeit minor ones, and he always has some kinds of at will magical attacks. He ends up relying on magic all of the time and that feels like a wizard to me. No more crossbow time is a good thing in my book.

rooster
4e really just made the wizard into a warlock with a few more tricks. Non-combat spells have been gutted and they just pick from a limited menu for their combat spells. The magic system needed some work. Vancian casting was due to get the boot, and it is a definite plus to make sure that there are some at will abilities. But, this new system cuts the amount of real utlity that a wizard--and thus the party--has by such an extreme margin. Using rituals to take the place of non-combat spells doesn't really cut it. First, they don't cover nearly the amount of things that 3e and 2e magic did, and they are pretty burdensome. How can a wizard cast the knock ritual to sneak into the castle if he needs to perform the ritual for 10 minutes?

The utlity of magic and its non-combat applications was one of the things that gave 2e and 3e so much life. It hurts to see it get hamstrung. The rituals were a good thing in the 3e Unearthed Arcana because they added more variety to the game. Now, limiting non-combat magic to only rituals cuts the heart and lungs out a fantastic game and replaces it with a gall bladder.
Oh and just a reminder this is not a card game it is a roll playing game,



Wizards in 3e and 3.5 were incredibly powerful, and wands/scrolls just made them more so. A character "that could stop entire army" is fun for the first combat, then it quickly becomes very boring for the player, the DM, and everyone else in the group who isn't at the same stupendous level of power.
Anyway, with at-will powers, and powers that refresh every encounter, wizards have a comparable number of (meaningful) spells per day to what they had in 3.5.
"My wizard got nerfed.. why? I don't understand.. I only replaced entire parties!"

As if they needed scrolls and wands.. that only made them -more- wrong.

Last time I checked fireball was a spell... and the last time I checked it is in fact in the player's handbook.
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Wizards were glass cannons in earlier editions. They could hit hard, and had some decent defenses, but the lack of armor and absolutely pathetic hp made them so killable that they were sufficiently balanced. A munchkined 2e fighter could outdamage a 2e wizard any day of the week. 2e/3e wizards wern't that unbalanced. But the 3e cleric or druid was pretty overpowered.
I love how wizard are done myself and most of the classes as the defense/attack/save are all based on 1/2 your level plus your relevant modifiers. As stated it makes less combat oriented characters from older editions less killable from a pixie stone throw..poor poor mages

Now they and everyone else have numerous powers which are no less useful, and to top it off no more resting every 3-4 encounters because your over zealous mage expends every spell and just becomes glass.
The special abilities/powers are the spells. This is also true for the rituals, however rituals are more for between combat.

I actually prefer the at-will/encounter/daily power list as it does not relegate the wizard to a walking knowledge-tome if they use their spells up early and do not have the time to rest.

I rolled up an Eladrin Wizard, just to test it out and I love it! I can stand with the group for the entire campaign rather than hold back and think of exactly when I should cast one spell or another.

My cleric and paladin are a little more rounded as well. Sure, my Palidin loses his spells, but he gains other abilities which are more useful. Not to mention, he is now more than just a fighter/cleric.
Our group played again last night. The wizard was able to throw spell after spell as we dungeon crawled. He seemed right magical. Most of his were the at will powers of course, but he felt like a help to the group the entire time. I'm just envious I'm not playing the wizard in our group.

rooster
PHB 168, Legion's Hold. If you're fighting an army, it's pretty safe to assume they're minions. That spell is close burst 20. Yes, that covers nearly the entire table. You want a wizard to take down an army? There you go.
Well, although the rituals are annoying in requiring more time than in the past, 10 minutes is not really a huge investment (I think this is to encourage using the faster rogue when possible for rituals like Knock or detect secret doors).

The rituals more than make up for this by being available at any time. So long as you have the components and time you can cast any ritual you know. Utility spells in 3E and previous versions had to compete with offensive and defensive spells to end up on the spell list. Knock was only useful if you actually memorized it, and then only for the number of times you memorized it.

I think they purposely set aside the rituals to function in a more practical sense than before.
After just at a month of DMing the game it appears the Wizard is one of the weaker classes. Warlock has Wizard beat all to .... with pure damage producing spells etc. At Will powers are much weaker than fighter's powers and the Ranger is something totally upgraded. Of all the new classes with old names we have managed to make the following much weaker than previous versions of the game... Paladin and Wizard. Hard to get excited about the 1d6plus intelligence mod when a 1st level fighter with a maul is dishing out 2d6 plus strength every round. For the pure role player Wizard has some cute little class powers he or she can do but even those are small payoff to the other classes. Wizard needs help now or he will become just as extinct as some of the other older classes that have gone by the wayside. Most new players will very quickly find the Warlock's power of obtaining temporary hitpoints until next rest to be an amazing thing. Our 5th level Warlock currently has over 110 hitpoints with this power and a short sword found in the Keep on the Shadowfell. Since minions count as creatures also he learned very quickly he didn't need to do much other than take a weapon proficiency feat and mark then kill minions. Heck it does even matter if he kills them... just curse them and watch the fighters kill the creatures as you soak up hitpoints. Of course even the most hardy of adventurers must eventually rest and he will return to his regular hitpoints at that time. So Wizard with his 1d6 OR Warlock with his butt whipping powers... not even close....
Collasus,
I'm not going to try to dissect the Warlock in your game from the context of your post, so I can't say with certainty but 110 seems a little high.

Page 293 of the PHB explains Temporary Hit Points, and it says that Temporary Hit Points from Different Sources don't stack. I don't know think that it is intended for the Infernal Warlock Pact Dark One's Blessing class feature counts as the "same source" for each enemy dropped while under the influence of your Warlocks Curse.

Simply stated, I think that the Warlock can gain up to his level in Temporary Hit Points for each instance of that, but that it doesn't stack together.

As I said, I don't know if that is the situation in your game, but you might want to make sure the Warlock isn't stacking Temp HP from Different Sources.
seemed ridiculous to me also but I had not seen the temporary hit point rules. Yes.. Infernal Pact using that little short sword in Keep on Shadowfell. Myself and my players got to naming him the hitpoint bank. All I saw was the rule that said Temporary hitpoints last until the character rests. I had not seen a level cap or the different sources thing. Don't want to bring this thread to far off track but if you would I would sure like to know the page. Thanks VERY helpful information.
You still see the wizard as some class it never was... A damage dealer. The wizard was never a good damage dealer. The fighter was always far beyond in term of damage dealing.

The "legendary" fireball was an average 17-18 hp blast (10D6 => average 35 => 1/2 for the save every mid level character never miss, not to mention monk and rogue...).

Even the "powerfull" meteor swarm was ridiculous compared to a fighter damge output.

So what was a wizard :

- Low level centered mass destruction weapon (fire ball was very effective against numerous weak enemies).
- An all purpose swiff knife, but only if he had prepared the right spell for th occasion
- A "special effect" specialist. The wizard was very good at paralysing, slowing, etc...

What is the wizard now :

- Low level centered mass destruction weapon: more than before, with the minion new ennemy type wizard can wipe out entire army of minions in no time. It still has the most wide aera effect spells.
- An all purpose swiff knife: as the previous, more than before. With the ritual system and the right skills to be able to use most of rituals, the wizard can better replace a rogue than before (but it isn't cheap...). With probably billions of rituals coming soon in the official and unofficial releases, ritual casting will soon become a popular feat...
- A "special effect" specialist: just read the orb implement bonus... The wizard is discribed as a controller, it is THE class that hinder ennemies.

As before the wizard needs some tank support, but now it can survive alone to minor encounter. The only real under powering it suffer is that there are no more instant death spells.
Don't want to bring this thread to far off track but if you would I would sure like to know the page. Thanks VERY helpful information.

It was in my original post -- Page 293 of the PHB. I try to quote page numbers when I can Good luck, it always sucks when one character is stealing the limelight due to a broken or misinterpreted mechanic.
Wizards were glass cannons in earlier editions. They could hit hard, and had some decent defenses, but the lack of armor and absolutely pathetic hp made them so killable that they were sufficiently balanced.

Right, between about levels 4-15. Under that and they're a pretty pathetic cannon.
And above that and nothing can stop them.

That's exactly what they are in 4e too, only without the silliness of higher levels when they can take out whole armies.
Which they probably still could, given armies would be 99% minions.

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many peopels do NOT want their 'meager' non-wizards reduced to uselessness due to the blasting god. Or non-CODs.

Also, the powers are spells. Chat blanc, blanc chat. Semantic. Also, rituals.

Amusing that you say that the rules are too restrictives, as you seems to have played 2nd ed.

QFMFT.
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