When do you expect 4.5 to come?

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Wow the books haven't even hit the shelf yet and already people are wondering about 4.5....

I could of sworn I heard that there won't be a need for a 4.5....

because of the online resources they can make the changes as needed...and if I remember one of the 4th Ed interviews from Gen Con 2007...one of the Designers even said that there won't be a revised edition of 4th...

of course I could of imagined it...I mean the Gamer Zero Podcasts could of been product of my imagination and everybody is playing along with me and with my Delusions..:coolcthul

Well, "Will there be a 4.5e?" is just one of those questions that will always get you the same answer: "No".

Saying "Yes" would scuttle 4e and "No comments", or avoiding the question altogether, would be just as bad.

If WotC does not publish it, then their answer is true, obviously.

On the other hand, if they plan to do so, if they keep the option open, they just can't answer truthfully now can they? I wouldn't.

Either way you get the same answer, thus it is really no answer at all.

I'm not saying they are lying, but if they are, I'm not blaming them. They just don't have a choice.
Sebby
"I'm a bonster. Rawr!"
Just something I thought I'd point out (or concur with, as others have mentioned it):
...
Othe other hand, 3.5e was a partial replacement of 3.0e. It is partially backward compatible, but in many cases requires the refactoring of existing PCs, NPCs and monsters. This was not a rule supplement, it was a rule replacement. You could not have a 3.0 ranger and a 3.5 ranger in the same game. The "name" 3.5 was chosen because a) it was too early for 4e and b) it was only a partial replacement of the rules (a lot of things did not change, just enough to warrant a new set of books).

That's two different kinds of crunch: add-ons and replacements.

Some suggest that if this kind of rule replacement ever becomes necessary before the market is ready for 5e, that it could (or should) be done via the release of PHB2+, DMG2+, or worse, DDI.

Stop, and think for a moment about the kind of unmanageable mess that would create. You would have current and obsolete tidbits of rules spread around your entire D&D library.

...How's that gonna work if the rule replacements are arbitrarily spread over time and many books AND online?

A few rule replacement and revisions along the way is fine, but there is a point where it risks turning the rules into an unmanageable bloated morass. I wish the yearly core books will contain add-ons, but as few as possible replacements.

I did not jump with joy when 3.5e was announced and released. But I understood the rationale, and I agreed that it was the most convenient way to do it for everyone involved. New sales for WotC, and for us, better rules and organization.

I hope 4.5e is not needed, but if it is, I hope they do it as they did with 3.5e. As for a release date, if it happens, summer 2011 would be my guess. Past that time, it will be an indication that the core of 4e is not broken enough to justify it, and the next overhaul will be 5e, by 2016.

You make an excellent point, Sebby, and I personally find both your rationale and your timeline agreeable.

I know there'll be a PH, DMG, and MM each year, but I don't honestly expect them to get past IV or V before we see some kind of format change, possibly a revision or compilation set. This doesn't bother me at all; I'd rather see four years of quality products capped by a Revised 4E than ten years of bloated, poorly-balanced, poorly-written, and poorly-edited splat.

What I'm absolutely certain of is that any such revision will NOT use any decimal notation; 'Revised 4th Edition' sounds better than '4.5E' anyway.
Well, "Will there be a 4.5e?" is just one of those questions that will always get you the same answer: "No".

Saying "Yes" would scuttle 4e and "No comments", or avoiding the question altogether, would be just as bad.

If WotC does not publish it, then their answer is true, obviously.

On the other hand, if they plan to do so, if they keep the option open, they just can't answer truthfully now can they? I wouldn't.

Either way you get the same answer, thus it is really no answer at all.

I'm not saying they are lying, but if they are, I'm not blaming them. They just don't have a choice.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I'd still buy the 4th edition core books even if they said "Yes" to "Will there be a 4.5?" Maybe I'm just completely insane, but I think $60-$70 is a pretty fair price for a solid year or two of fun. I spend more than that on books, movies, CDs, and video games that last for much less time. I think there are a whole lot of people out there who feel the same way; most of them don't post here on the boards though. They're the "casual" consumers and "impulse" buyers and "people who pick up a PHB because one of their friends is starting a game".

I guess it's different if you're one of those people who feels they have to buy every single book that comes out for the RPG's you play. I'm not sure what to say to those people except that maybe you should step back, and realize that you have free will. You can choose to buy only the books that you want, not the books you feel like you "need to have". I played and DM'd 2e, 3e and 3.5e since they were all released, and I only had the core books plus three or four extras. The other players would buy extra books occasionally if it seemed like something they really wanted. And there is still a ton of material that I never used. There are quite a few monsters in the original MM that I never threw at them; there are a few hundred plot hooks in the original Eberron Campaign Setting that never saw the light of day; and probably fifty prestige classes that have never been used. The web is full of completely free material you can use as well. And if all else fails, you can write your own.
...

This doesn't bother me at all; I'd rather see four years of quality products capped by a Revised 4E than ten years of bloated, poorly-balanced, poorly-written, and poorly-edited splat.

...

That right there. You have a gift for being succinct, that I don't have.
Sebby
"I'm a bonster. Rawr!"
I agree on the 2 years for a 4.5; the next edition will come out in 8-10 years. At that point in time there will be no more books just down loads like wow and then we pay for patches that take the place of books.
I don't think that's necessarily true. I'd still buy the 4th edition core books even if they said "Yes" to "Will there be a 4.5?" Maybe I'm just completely insane, but I think $60-$70 is a pretty fair price for a solid year or two of fun. I spend more than that on books, movies, CDs, and video games that last for much less time. I think there are a whole lot of people out there who feel the same way; most of them don't post here on the boards though. They're the "casual" consumers and "impulse" buyers and "people who pick up a PHB because one of their friends is starting a game".

The point is, people, and company representatives especially, will answer questions according to what they gain by answering one way or the other. When you get the truth, it's because it serves them.

And there are questions, like this one, that it is just futile to ask. It may seem cynical, but since I've been assessing what people say in light of their motivations, I have been way less surprised and disapointed.

You see this 4.5e issue with much wisdom and rationality, and that is to your credit, but are you representative enough of the majority? If WotC said "We'll release 4.5e in 3 years if it is required", I'd bet the farm these forums would burn to the ground.

I guess it's different if you're one of those people who feels they have to buy every single book that comes out for the RPG's you play. I'm not sure what to say to those people except that maybe you should step back, and realize that you have free will. You can choose to buy only the books that you want, not the books you feel like you "need to have". I played and DM'd 2e, 3e and 3.5e since they were all released, and I only had the core books plus three or four extras. The other players would buy extra books occasionally if it seemed like something they really wanted. And there is still a ton of material that I never used. There are quite a few monsters in the original MM that I never threw at them; there are a few hundred plot hooks in the original Eberron Campaign Setting that never saw the light of day; and probably fifty prestige classes that have never been used. The web is full of completely free material you can use as well. And if all else fails, you can write your own.

That's another topic. I know what you mean though: when I look back at my 3-feet tall D&D 3.5 library (and that's not every WotC book published), I'm always thinking "Do I even use 20% of all that?".
Sebby
"I'm a bonster. Rawr!"
Call me a cynic, but I would not be suprised if 4.5 is already gathering dust in the WotC vaults, why they work on 5th ed. (You know that intel are already working on pentiumVII, didn't you?)

Stick to the edition you like to play in your group, and let the fat cats be.

We were playing the first 4th ed mini encounter in my group last week, when I mentioned a rule and my mate says..'err.. your talking about THAC0'.. yeh.. I'm still living in the past.. but hey, that was my favorite ed.
Call me a cynic, but I would not be suprised if 4.5 is already gathering dust in the WotC vaults, why they work on 5th ed. (You know that intel are already working on pentiumVII, didn't you?)

Stick to the edition you like to play in your group, and let the fat cats be.

We were playing the first 4th ed mini encounter in my group last week, when I mentioned a rule and my mate says..'err.. your talking about THAC0'.. yeh.. I'm still living in the past.. but hey, that was my favorite ed.

Cynicism isn't necessarily unhealthy, but frankly sir, it's ridiculous to propose that the revision is finished before 4E is even released. (I speculate some of the designers who've spent the past few months working their butts off to get 4E ready in time would be insulted.)

But I agree with you, BroadinMineshafter; people ought to play whatever edition or game they most like to play. Period. AD&D is not without its charms.
3.5 was not an anomaly. We had Skills & Powers in 2E (2.5E) and Unearthed Arcana in 1E (1.5E). Each was slightly different in its presentation, but they had a huge impact on the game at the time they came out. These weren't just splatbooks, they had some fundamental changes to the game (Cantrips, 0-level characters, reordered and expanded classes and revised demi-human class level limits for Unearthed Arcana).

You don't understand what you're talking about. Skills & Powers and Unearthed Arcana did NOT supersede the core books, nor did they replace them. 3.5 ENDED use of the 3.0 core and splatbooks because they weren't quite compatible. It ended production of the 3rd edition core books entirely. Skills & Powers and Unearthed Arcana did nothing of the sort.

I'm sorry you don't get it. Those WERE just splatbooks. No, don't argue. You're wrong. Yes, they changed stuff, but guess what? They were still splatbooks because THEY WEREN'T THE MAIN RULES. I know this may be difficult for you to comprehend, but it is the case.

3.5 ended the production of 3.0 books by WotC. Did Skills & Powers and Unearthed Arcana do away with and replace the PHB, DMG, and MM for 1st and 2nd edition?

No.

Royal prediction: no 4.5, but 5e sometime between 6 and 9 years from now, probably closer to the 6 end.

5th will be out in 7-8 years.

You know, on the other side of this whole "new editions coming too soon" dilemma, I can think of quite a few great RPGs, all of which are far younger than D&D, that have gone through anywhere between 3-6 editions since their inceptions in the 80s and 90s.

On the other hand, they suck.

The real and legit complaint is that 4e requires you to keep track of where everybody is.
While minis are the easiest and most attractive way of doing it, they are not the only way.

It is not a "legitimate" complaint that 4e requires you to keep track of where everyone is. EVERY edition, EVEN second, required it. Positions were least important in second edition. They were very important in 3.x, though, so claiming this is a change is, of course, wrong.

Back on topic, don't think there will be a 4.5 at all. Like another poster said, it will be PH2, DMG2, etc with DDI filling in the void until 5E.

Are those going to change the core rules?

The answer is no. They're going to add stuff, but they won't be subtractive and won't act as errata.

That means nothing, because those same designers also fervently denied a 4th edition, and look where we are now.

And your comments mean nothing because you've no evidence, and we do have evidence. Who should we prefer? The guy who has no evidence, no understanding of business, no understanding of the purpose of 3.5, and no credibility, or the people who have all those things?

Online resources won't change the text printed in books, they'd have to print new books for that. Plus, these are also the same designers who fervently denied there would be a 4th edition, take their word with a grain of salt.

When did a designer say there wouldn't be a fourth edition? Citation needed.

Oh, that's right, you don't have one.

Sorry, you lose.

People MAY HAVE denied that 4th edition was in production, but that's entirely different from saying it wouldn't ever come out.
...
People MAY HAVE denied that 4th edition was in production, but that's entirely different from saying it wouldn't ever come out.

This.

...And, to paraphrase:
People MAY deny that a future edition of D&D is in production, but that's entirely different from saying it won't ever come out.

We know that there will be another D&D beyond 4E, and I quite literally pity the fool who, at this point, doubts that. The only question is when and what it will be called.
12/20/2012 - Guess what day it is
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End of the world Mayan Calendar. :P
I thought it was Aztec?
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They still have to re-release all the "Complete" books, and all the rest of those 3.5's. Even with a book a month we're set for a while.
You know, on the other side of this whole "new editions coming too soon" dilemma, I can think of quite a few great RPGs, all of which are far younger than D&D, that have gone through anywhere between 3-6 editions since their inceptions in the 80s and 90s.

Also those game companies did not have the resources to release supplemental material as often as WOTC. For many (not all) of these games 'new edition' replaced what WOTC would include as supplemental material.

Generally I agree.

additionally, marketers have analyzed that for games at least, 7 years is the optimum time for a new release.
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
Never. There's no need because the rules can be updated at any time via the DDI.

So the DDI is required then. ;)
So the DDI is required then. ;)

See some potential for abuse with this. Given their current money strategy, things keep looking more grim to me.

What is sad is I doubt they care they have this image from their customer base.
What's the problem with a 4.5 (will it ever come)?
It'll take dust in the shop while I play 4 (or 3), simple.
Or is there any Superior Force which compels us to burn money on every stupid thing that they come up to at the marketing section?
If they try to fool customers again (and I can understand new players, but still I wonder how could many people buy 3.5 when they already had 3 -and cry thereafter that WotC fooled them-), may they fall without mercy as they deserve (hard to think that it may happen in such a way).
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