When do you expect 4.5 to come?

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WotC hit us with 3.5 about 3 years after 3E's debut. Hopefully WotC will do us right the first time around and not need another .5 edition, but if it happens, I suspect it'll be released between 2010 and 2012.
Never. There's no need because the rules can be updated at any time via the DDI.
Never, they will just publish DMG 2, PHB2, and then DMG 3,PHB 3 one year later, see? there is no need for a +1/2.

Although D&D 5 is coming soon.
Never. There's no need because the rules can be updated at any time via the DDI.

That's assuming all players subscribe to DDI ... I know I won't.
Never. There's no need because the rules can be updated at any time via the DDI.


I'm sorry, but thats just crazy talk.

"Hey, we could put the revision up for "free" to our subscribers, or we can print new books and change just enough that everybody has to buy whole new copies of things they already have and make a fortune!"

Yeah, a 4.5 is coming, and it'll arrive whenever the sales of 4e start slacking off. Same way 3.5 did.

I'm sorry, but thats just crazy talk.

"Hey, we could put the revision up for "free" to our subscribers, or we can print new books and change just enough that everybody has to buy whole new copies of things they already have and make a fortune!"

Yeah, a 4.5 is coming, and it'll arrive whenever the sales of 4e start slacking off. Same way 3.5 did.

And of course they'll violently deny it, right up until it hits the shelves.
Whether or not, WOTC officially releases a 4.5 edition, matters not.

They will almost certainly release optional/advanced rule books anyway so in effect, those releases will be 4.5-ish by default.

not to mention the oodles of errata that's sure to follow.
My guess is that there isn't going to be a 4.5, actually.
My guess is next year.
*snip*
not to mention the oodles of errata that's sure to follow.



You made a funny... *tee-hee* :P
Yeah, a 4.5 is coming, and it'll arrive whenever the sales of 4e start slacking off. Same way 3.5 did.

Releasing 3.5 was already planned when 3.0 hit the shelves.

I believe that well before the sales of 4e will 'start slacking off' they'll start working on 5e.

You may believe it or not, there's no reason at all to release something like a 4.5 with the DDI available and the yearly release of a new PHB, DMG & MM.
Releasing 3.5 was already planned when 3.0 hit the shelves.

I believe that well before the sales of 4e will 'start slacking off' they'll start working on 5e.

You may believe it or not, there's no reason at all to release something like a 4.5 with the DDI available and the yearly release of a new PHB, DMG & MM.

Except that, as stated, the DDI isn't for whole-sale rules revisions - after all, not everyone will be subscribed to DDI. DDI is for all the parts of each book that should have been in it, but that WotC decided to make-extra-ultra-exclusive by putting online where they get paid for material and don't have to pay for the printing costs.

If they released a .5 revision/patch via DDI, non-subscribers wouldn't be able to access it, thereby cutting off the usablility of future 4.5 products from non-subscribers. That's suicide, because it prevents people who have avoided subscribing from getting access to the newer rules and therefore dissuades them from buying the newer hard copy books. They'll release 4.5 in hard-bound form, though there will obviously be previews and the rules-update also included in DDI.

All that said, I'd peg 4.5 to come out in about 2011, 2012 at the latest. If I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised, but the model of 4.0 strikes me as actually more prone to rules-bloat than 3.5, because there's so many additional paragon paths, epic destinies, tricks, abilities, feats, classes (since multiclassing makes it harder to hybridize), monsters, templates, and weapon abilities already being worked on. When each race, class, and item takes up two to three times the space it used to, that's a lot more pages of printing, and therefore, less in each book. So they'll be able to release more books, I suppose, but then the rules will be bloated and they'll have to just start all over again. It's possible that the 4.5 won't actually arrive - that WotC will just go to 5.0, but they've shown they aren't particularly concerned about the actual life of a product line, and only with releasing newer rules. Furthermore, with their new Campaign Setting model, they won't even be able to generate as much revenue from campaign settings as they used to - all they'll get out of Eberron players is the price of two, maybe all three of the ECS books, and then, maybe more rules books. Back in 3.5, Eberron players probably bought all the Completes and other rules supplements while ALSO buying each ECS book, increasing the actual amount of books purchased.
Do you really think 3.5 was planned before 3.0 was out? That's hilarious...3.5 was designed as an update, an improvement, not a complete overhaul. Essentially they looked at it, realized the ****ed up majorly and needed to do something to change it.

Of course, I may be wrong. But it doesn't seem to make any sense otherwise.

As for a 4.5, well..sure maybe? We haven't seen the rules. There may be so many updates that need to get done that they need to make one. I sure as hell hope not because that'd be a bad financial move on their part. It would make hasbro look bad. And before you say that they don't care if they look bad, yes they do. Any company does. Why? Because it has to do with finance. Some people will not buy from a company that they do not like. Examples of this can be seen from some very patriotic Americans refusing to purchase gas from certain gas stations or refusing to use K-mart because of..well I can't recall why anymore.

And do you think that their new campaign model will lose them money? It was designed to increase net profit not to lose it. They found out that with all the setting specific books they produce they only hit a very select, and small audience. If you have 100 eberron players perhaps 75-80 would buy a new book, now if that book is focused for DM's only..even less would purchase it.

I've read from a freelancer's blog that there have been suggestions that this isn't a concrete model anyway. They intend to release only three campaign books per year for one setting each year. But if say, Eberron's three sell exceptionally well and they find a strong and viable group still wanting to buy more, more will undoubtedly appear.

But hey, I'm not a marketing major, economics major, or business major. I don't know anything about how to juggle profit margins or public opinion. But I doubt the majority of people who post their opinion are..so we're on an even level. Two cookies for whoever ends up being right
And of course they'll violently deny it, right up until it hits the shelves.

QFT.
This new forum is terrible. Try again Wizards.
Never, they will just publish DMG 2, PHB2, and then DMG 3,PHB 3 one year later, see? there is no need for a +1/2.

Although D&D 5 is coming soon.

I agree.

A very big reason 3.5 was released was to maintain interest in the core set. With the "expanding core" in 4e, interest keeps its peak longer (in theory ;)). No need then, for a revised edition, released all at once. Instead, we'll likely see some evidence of revisions along the way. I expect sidebars will eventually appear, saying something like: "If you are using the revised multiclass feats presented in PH 4 . . . "

By the same token: Later Player Handbooks may eventually supercede the earlier PHs, but I doubt this will happen until several have been released (i.e. several years down the road, same as other revisions).

Their primary purpose will prolly be to be to introduce "new" power sources. The initial PH introduces the martial, arcane and divine power sources. The PH2 will prolly introduce us to psionics.

My two coppers ;).
/\ Art
Do you really think 3.5 was planned before 3.0 was out? That's hilarious...3.5 was designed as an update, an improvement, not a complete overhaul.

Actually, I know for sure 3.5 was planned before 3.0 was out (Monte Cook mentioned it in some web article). You're still right, however, what was not originally planned was the major overhaul of so many rules.

As for a 4.5, well..sure maybe? We haven't seen the rules. There may be so many updates that need to get done that they need to make one.

It's conceivable. But I don't think it's what they plan to do

I've read from a freelancer's blog that there have been suggestions that this isn't a concrete model anyway. They intend to release only three campaign books per year for one setting each year. But if say, Eberron's three sell exceptionally well and they find a strong and viable group still wanting to buy more, more will undoubtedly appear.

Yep. That's exactly what I've heard. WotC would also like their customers to treat these campaign books as part of the 'core rulebooks'. It's no coincidence that the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide will include exclusive information about a new base class (Swordmage) and races (Drow, Genasi). Want to play a Swordmage in an Eberron Campaign? Go buy the FRPG!

As a final remark on this topic I'd like to point out that several areas and certain basic functionality of the DDI will stay free and thus available for everyone.
E.g. everyone will be able to use the rules database to search for a certain feat. However, you'll only find a reference to the source book and a page number rather than the full description of the feat.
Similarly, errata will be made available for everyone without the need to subscribe to the DDI.

I do not, btw, currently plan to subscribe to the DDI. Even if our group should decide to convert to 4E (which I hope since I like what I've seen so far) I don't want to shell out a monthly fee.

Should the game ever reach a point where it's no longer possible or fun to play without being a DDI subscriber, I'll stop playing D&D. It's not as if it was the only rpg still around
No need then, for a revised edition, released all at once. Instead, we'll likely see some evidence of revisions along the way. I expect sidebars will eventually appear, saying something like: "If you are using the revised multiclass feats presented in PH 4 . . . "

This!
And of course they'll violently deny it, right up until it hits the shelves.

Just like they violently deny the need for minis and a battle grid. Unfortunately for them, I'm sticking with my tried-and-try method of graph paper and pencils unless they start making some set pieces where I know what I'm buying.
But doesn't your ability to play with pencil and paper prove that they aren't lying when they say you don't need minis?
It won't come out. Period.

5th edition will be out in 7-8 years, if that's what you mean. But they won't do another .5 edition.
Sure they will. 2e had Player's Option, and 3e had 3.5. Heck even 1e had Unearthed Arcana, which almost qualifies as 1.5e.

4.5 depending on what they want to call it, will happen after they have all the "core" D&D stuff printed. It won't look quite the same since they're switching to a PHB2,3... format, but the same stuff will be covered: psionics, the other base classes, a few books of paragon paths and epic destinies, the planes, strongholds (maybe if we're lucky), deities & demigods, mass combat (if we're lucky), and a few other things. Then the PHB and DMG annuals will start having lower quality content, as all the bases become covered, and we'll start seeing things like Incarnum and Tome of Battle. When we see this, everybody should collectively go, "Oh! They're experimenting for 5e." Then the books will get thinner and the page count will decrease as fewer people buy. Then a new Star Wars game will come out, and abunch of compendiums. And finally at GenCon they'll announce 5e for May 2016 (my guess for an integer edition).

So, the short version: I believe 4.5 will be about five years (2013) and 5e will be eight or nine (~2016).
Just like they violently deny the need for minis and a battle grid. Unfortunately for them, I'm sticking with my tried-and-try method of graph paper and pencils unless they start making some set pieces where I know what I'm buying.

You are just proving that you really do NOT need minis to play the game. I have been using a battle grid and chess pieces for a long time, the minis are just extra decoration.
I'm guessing there won't be a 4.5e - at least not one called that. It would generate too much hostility (IMHO).

Rather, there will be PHB2+ for a while, then maybe books giving optional rules and more optional rules on DDI and then 5e.

I think this process will take about 5 - 6 years, but I really hope it takes 9-10.
Playing Scales of War

Rogue.jpg

It won't. Next question.
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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

But doesn't your ability to play with pencil and paper prove that they aren't lying when they say you don't need minis?

I regularly played 2nd Edition with no more than a bag of dice, a character sheet, and a few pencils. The only maps we had was so we knew what a room looked like, not where everyone was. It just wasn't needed.

Now with all the dancing around that you're doing during comabt, it's going to be impossible without a lot of "eyeballing" it and that won't be as easy as it was in 2nd Edition.

I thought I was buying Dungeons & Dragons by WotC. Looks more like Fantasy RISK by AH.
What will it be called then, I think is the next question...
4.5 won't come out?

Only in the sense that they'll call it something else... but...

its naivety to belive this is the final incarnation of the game. Let us not be foolish about this...
What will it be called then, I think is the next question...
4.5 won't come out?

Only in the sense that they'll call it something else... but...

its naivety to belive this is the final incarnation of the game. Let us not be foolish about this...

"4.5 won't happen" /= "the final incarnation of the game"

In fact, no one believes that this is the final incarnation of the game. Names matter. 4.5, as an add-on to 4th edition, simply won't happen, IMHO. 5th edition, sure. That will happen.
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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

Never. The game will receive incremental updates via new core books throughout it's lifespan until it is eventually superseded by 5e in 2015.
when WotC feels like it. What are you going to do? Complain? Yeah, you'll just buy D&D from someone else, thats laughable.
Lots-O-RPG's Played: D&D (Advanced 2nded, 3.0, 3.5, 4thed & Pathfinder), StarWars (RCR & Saga), Scion, Shadowrun (4thed), Call of Cthulhu (Original % & d20), Warhammer, BESM (d20-3.5 compatable), Fudge (Fudge on the fly variant).
I think Wizards has realized that a lot of people don't like the "numbered like software" editions.

So I think in the future they'll drop the numbering and the next version will be called "D&D Saga Edition" or "Expert Edition" or "Advanced Edition" or something like that.

Look for it in about two years.
I regularly played 2nd Edition with no more than a bag of dice, a character sheet, and a few pencils. The only maps we had was so we knew what a room looked like, not where everyone was. It just wasn't needed.

Now with all the dancing around that you're doing during comabt, it's going to be impossible without a lot of "eyeballing" it and that won't be as easy as it was in 2nd Edition.

I thought I was buying Dungeons & Dragons by WotC. Looks more like Fantasy RISK by AH.

So the people who have been using battle mats and figs for 30 odd years haven''t been playing D&D correctly?

Must come as a shock that other groups play differently doesn't it. They didn't realize they weren't playing The One True Way(tm)

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

I regularly played 2nd Edition with no more than a bag of dice, a character sheet, and a few pencils. The only maps we had was so we knew what a room looked like, not where everyone was. It just wasn't needed.

Now with all the dancing around that you're doing during comabt, it's going to be impossible without a lot of "eyeballing" it and that won't be as easy as it was in 2nd Edition.

I thought I was buying Dungeons & Dragons by WotC. Looks more like Fantasy RISK by AH.

I couldn't agree more. Apparently narrative combat has gone by the way-side in 4E what with miniatures being required for play. Has anyone actually tried a narrative combat with the new 4E rules? And just so I am clear, its not the fact that I don't have all these new minis or any minis at all. I know you can use other things like chess pieces etc. The truth is, I and my group don't want to use minis AT ALL. I know that sounds foreign to some people, but I actually prefer it that way. Minis take too much time and the game ends up feeling like Hero Quest instead of D&D.

Back on topic, don't think there will be a 4.5 at all. Like another poster said, it will be PH2, DMG2, etc with DDI filling in the void until 5E.
So the people who have been using battle mats and figs for 30 odd years haven''t been playing D&D correctly?

Must come as a shock that other groups play differently doesn't it. They didn't realize they weren't playing The One True Way(tm)

Thank you.


As for 4.5? Nah, I think that 3.5 was just an anomoly. If 4e is as balanced as they say it is we might not have 5e for a good few years, I'd speculate more than the time between 3.5 and 4.
I couldn't agree more. Apparently narrative combat has gone by the way-side in 4E what with miniatures being required for play.

I cannot figure out why so many people are incapable of understanding that the use of miniatures has always been assumed in every edition of the game but that they have never been required. In this 4e is no different than 3e, 2e, 1e, or even BD&D. People who are unable to run a 4e game without miniature need to look to their own limitations are players, not imagine those limitations to be the fault of the game.
I couldn't agree more. Apparently narrative combat has gone by the way-side in 4E what with miniatures being required for play. Has anyone actually tried a narrative combat with the new 4E rules? And just so I am clear, its not the fact that I don't have all these new minis or any minis at all. I know you can use other things like chess pieces etc. The truth is, I and my group don't want to use minis AT ALL. I know that sounds foreign to some people, but I actually prefer it that way. Minis take too much time and the game ends up feeling like Hero Quest instead of D&D.

Back on topic, don't think there will be a 4.5 at all. Like another poster said, it will be PH2, DMG2, etc with DDI filling in the void until 5E.

So the people who have been using battle mats and figs for 30 odd years haven't been playing D&D correctly?

Must come as a shock that other groups play differently doesn't it. They didn't realize they weren't playing The One True Way(tm)

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

Because AD&D2E really de-emphasised them - it didn't require miniatures at all. Those people whose D&D experience starts with AD&D (and that's a lot of people, thanks to Baldur's Gate, Eye of the Beholder, and a bunch of similar AD&D computer games) only see miniatures come into the picture with 3e+.


Regarding the topic at hand, WotC realise it'd be corporate suicide to do a 4.5 - they'd lose any good name they have left when it comes to reliability in a rules system. 5e wouldn't sell.

And don't expect 5e too soon - people are complaining about upgrading at all, but we had 2eAD&D for a hell of a long time, and 3e for almost as long, too.
Because AD&D2E really de-emphasised them - it didn't require miniatures at all. Those people whose D&D experience starts with AD&D (and that's a lot of people, thanks to Baldur's Gate, Eye of the Beholder, and a bunch of similar AD&D computer games) only see miniatures come into the picture with 3e+.

But 1st edition emphasized them.
So did 3rd.
So will 4th.

2nd edition is the anamoly, not the standard to aim for.
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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

if 4.5 and or 5 comes around im jumping ship.

go off to reading books
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
if 4.5 and or 5 comes around im jumping ship.

go off to reading books

So, when 5th comes around 8 years from now, you'll just quit? That's...silly.
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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

3.5 was not an anomaly. We had Skills & Powers in 2E (2.5E) and Unearthed Arcana in 1E (1.5E). Each was slightly different in its presentation, but they had a huge impact on the game at the time they came out. These weren't just splatbooks, they had some fundamental changes to the game (Cantrips, 0-level characters, reordered and expanded classes and revised demi-human class level limits for Unearthed Arcana).

I don't see why 4E won't have it's own upgrades and it will likely coincide with whenever a new starter set for minis it put out. I'm sure we'll see an incremental patching, but at some point the game will be such a patchwork that issuing "reordered & condensed" rulebooks will be a must. Then it's a race off to develop 5E.
I don't see why 4E won't have it's own upgrades and it will likely coincide with whenever a new starter set for minis it put out. I'm sure we'll see an incremental patching, but at some point the game will be such a patchwork that issuing "reordered & condensed" rulebooks will be a must. Then it's a race off to develop 5E.

Optional Upgrades /= 3.5. 3.5 was a retcon of the whole system, making it an anamoly.
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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

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