Metalic dragon icons

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I was realy happy to see the D&D icons of the cromatic dragons, and I've aquired a few. What i'm wondering is if they'll ever release Metalic dragon icons. Any thoughts or good news?
Bah! They are only making the Chromatic ones because they are the only ones worthy of such status...LoL

To be honest, I haven't heard anything about them. I was wondering when the Green was coming, since they have a few other scheduled, and Green is not among them
What i'm wondering is if they'll ever release Metalic dragon icons. Any thoughts or good news?

I guess they are a low priority because they're rarely used as opponents.

Additionally, since metallic dragons won't be in 4E's MM1, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a metallic dragon icon.

Finally, the next two icons that they had planned (gargantuan orcus, dracolich) to release are currently on hold. This indicates the icons line wasn't as successful as they'd like it to be. Production costs for these things are apparently too high to offer them at a reasonable price.
WotC has taken the Diablo approach in 4E, meaning that if you don't fight it it doesn't exists. So don't expect to see metallic dragons or other good creatures anytime soon unless they have been twisted into something you can fight.
I guess they are a low priority because they're rarely used as opponents.

Additionally, since metallic dragons won't be in 4E's MM1, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a metallic dragon icon.

Finally, the next two icons that they had planned (gargantuan orcus, dracolich) to release are currently on hold. This indicates the icons line wasn't as successful as they'd like it to be. Production costs for these things are apparently too high to offer them at a reasonable price.

WHAT! How can they do that? The good creatures have to be in the monster manual.
Hey, welcome to 4th edition, and the generation of gamers that let the world of MMORPG's influence the design. All you do in games as dull is that is fight, so therefore, that is what 4th Edition is all about. There are too many similarities between 4th Edition and WoW for my liking.
No metallic dragons or any other good-aligned creatures in the 4th Ed MM? Yet another reason not to bother with the new system. Characters need foes, yes, but they also need allies. Plus, just because something is good-aligned, doesn't mean the party wouldn't fight it.

Imagine a gold dragon hunting down a party of adventurers that invaded her lair and slew her young, and mistakes the heroic party as the villians. Are you saying the party wouldn't fight a gold dragon that's attacking them because she's supposed to be good, and they're supposed to be evil? Pshaw...yeah, right!

And don't get me started on outsiders.
The metallic dragons will be in the 4E MM1, with the exception of the bronze and brass, which have been swapped for the iron and adamantine dragons, to be seen at a later date. Metallics are just not always good as they were in older editions.
Well I hated the brass any way, but the bronze wasn't that bad. I am however, thankful for the copper's continued existence. However i also heard that they were taking away the small and medium sized dragons. This pisses me off becuase I've been writing a campain about a familey of coppers, one of which, a small was the main npc.
Finally, the next two icons that they had planned (gargantuan orcus, dracolich) to release are currently on hold. This indicates the icons line wasn't as successful as they'd like it to be. Production costs for these things are apparently too high to offer them at a reasonable price.

I asked customer support about the Gargantuan Orcus (mentioning the fact that Amazon doesn't have a picture yet), and they responded that they mini is on schedule for a March 18 release.
Rob Bodine @gsllc Convention Coordinator, synDCon @synDCon http://synDCon.net/ 4th Edition Dungeon Crawls: http://me.lt/2y0xi
WotC has taken the Diablo approach in 4E, meaning that if you don't fight it it doesn't exists. So don't expect to see metallic dragons or other good creatures anytime soon unless they have been twisted into something you can fight.

You're kidding me, right? Please give me a link if someone from WotC has been ..... enough to say or reasonably imply such a thing.
It helps to read the Preview release: World&Monsters. I really don't know who was giving you the idea that there wouldn't be 10 Dragons in the first MonsterManual upon release of 4e. 5 Metallics and 5 Chromatics WILL be in the MM4e, two of the metallics will be replaced by Iron and Adamantine. Gold and Silver will remain, do be assured of that. Out of Copper, Brass and Bronze I think that Copper is staying while the other two(Being almost indistinguishable from Copper) are replaced.

There will be good beings in the MM4e, just not good as you know them anymore. Angels are tools of Gods and Devils, Demons are also the tools of Gods and Devils.

As far as icons of the metallics, I really don't know if that will happen, there is that possibility being there as they will definitely be in MM4e.

AND before anyone says it in shock - Yes I did pay the outrageous price to buy both preview books, and yes it was worth it because I got a discount on the first one.
I really don't know who was giving you the idea that there wouldn't be 10 Dragons in the first MonsterManual upon release of 4e. 5 Metallics and 5 Chromatics WILL be in the MM4e, two of the metallics will be replaced by Iron and Adamantine. Gold and Silver will remain, do be assured of that. Out of Copper, Brass and Bronze I think that Copper is staying while the other two(Being almost indistinguishable from Copper) are replaced.

The rumor that there will be no metallics in the first 4e MM comes from a de-gagged 4e playtester's review (see here). The key phrase is: "But there are no metallic dragons in the core MM ... it’s just that you have to ask why a whole section on Kruthiks but not one on the metallics."

Now here's the tricky bit. At the moment, WotC is saying that all the minis from the last set, which includes a copper dragon, will be in the first 4e MM. So that suggests that there will be at least one metallic dragon in the book, which means that the playtester quoted above is wrong somehow. However, initially, WotC said that every mini in the last set except one would be in the book. They've since changed their tune, but I wonder if that was a reference to the copper dragon. Perhaps they were going to leave the metallics out initially (and so the version of the game the above playtester was using didn't have them) but have since decided to at least put the copper one in.

Don't forget ... we'll also be getting three new chromatic dragons in the first Draconomicon. That means we'll probably get some "new" metallic dragons in the second Draconomicon. Or perhaps we'll just get revamped versions of the brass and bronze dragons.


More on topic: Incidentally, the other interesting thing the reviewer says is that dragons no longer get any smaller than Large. I find that odd and intriguing at the same time. I'm slightly disappointed because the Medium Black Dragon is one of my favorite minis but I'm also intrigued because it begs the question of what size dragons are when they're born and does that mean they're absolutely harmless until they reach Large size? It could mean that Gargantuan and/or Colossal metallic dragon minis could be in the works at some point, though, because they're no longer going to be saddled with "Always Good", so PCs will be able to come into conflict with them more often, and if Large is the smallest size, then Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal dragons will undoubtedly get used more often ...
"Patience is the calm acceptance that things can happen in a different order than the one you have in mind."

~ David G. Allen

It helps to read the Preview release: World&Monsters. I really don't know who was giving you the idea that there wouldn't be 10 Dragons in the first MonsterManual upon release of 4e.

It also helps to keep in mind that the information contained in the preview books may already be outdated.

The latest information I've seen on the issue indicates that the metallic dragons were omitted from the 4E MM1 due to space restrictions.

I'd also like to mention that dragons are no longer bound to a certain alignment. Just as in Eberron, dragons in 4E may have any alignment, no matter if they're chromatic or metallic.
More on topic: Incidentally, the other interesting thing the reviewer says is that dragons no longer get any smaller than Large. I find that odd and intriguing at the same time. I'm slightly disappointed because the Medium Black Dragon is one of my favorite minis but I'm also intrigued because it begs the question of what size dragons are when they're born and does that mean they're absolutely harmless until they reach Large size? It could mean that Gargantuan and/or Colossal metallic dragon minis could be in the works at some point, though, because they're no longer going to be saddled with "Always Good", so PCs will be able to come into conflict with them more often, and if Large is the smallest size, then Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal dragons will undoubtedly get used more often ...

Coincidentily i had about the same feelings when my DM told me this.(one of my favorite minis is my small copper dragon) If this is true, then tecnicaly, they have to come out with more collosals and gargantuans. One more thing, what do you mean by first draconomicon and second draconomicon?
Coincidentily i had about the same feelings when my DM told me this.(one of my favorite minis is my small copper dragon) If this is true, then tecnicaly, they have to come out with more collosals and gargantuans. One more thing, what do you mean by first draconomicon and second draconomicon?

The Draconomicon I: Chromatic Dragons is due out in November. It stands to reason that there will be a Draconomicon II: Metallic Dragons released at some point. Psionics fans have been clamoring for a Draconomicon III: Gem Dragons, as well, but we'll just have to wait and see about that one.
"Patience is the calm acceptance that things can happen in a different order than the one you have in mind."

~ David G. Allen

You're kidding me, right? Please give me a link if someone from WotC has been ..... enough to say or reasonably imply such a thing.

Does a Freelancer/Playtester count?

But there are no metallic dragons in the core MM. And while Metallics have for the longest time been GOOD creatures, the new 4E lack of standard alignment allows you to be pitted against ANYTHING as long as there’s a good reason for it. No more ALWAYS LG means a crazed, deluded or simply ornery Silver dragon could actually be an opponent for the party. But not on release it can’t. The lack of certain classic giants like the Frost Giants is a bit lame – they include Death Giants, but not Frost? But don’t worry, Fire, Hill and Storm all make appearances. It’s not that there are bad choices and aditions – it’s just that you have to ask why a whole section on Kruthiks but not one on the metallics. I’ll trade you know. It’s not called Dungeons and Kruthiks.

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35811
Does a Freelancer/Playtester count?



http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35811

Beat you to it days ago! :P ;)
"Patience is the calm acceptance that things can happen in a different order than the one you have in mind."

~ David G. Allen

I asked customer support about the Gargantuan Orcus (mentioning the fact that Amazon doesn't have a picture yet), and they responded that they mini is on schedule for a March 18 release.

*looks at calendar*

*looks at amazon's product page*

*shrugs*
*looks at calendar*

*looks at amazon's product page*

*shrugs*

Things have changed. Here is the first response:

At this time there is no indication of a delay, the release should go on March 18th as scheduled. I'm afraid there is no public image of this mini available. I apologize for the inconvenience.

Thanks for writing in!

Here is my response on 3/18:

Well, here I am on the 18th, and suddenly Amazon claims that the mini is out of stock (even though I pre-ordered in in December). I find that to be a remarkable coincidence considering that there's currently no picture available for the mini. When will the mini be available?

* Original text had the following line in it: "When are you going to give us a straight answer?" I edited it out because there was no sense in causing trouble, but then . . .

Here's is the final response:

Unfortunately, you were provided with incorrect information.
Though such a product does exist on Amazon, no such product has ever been officially announced by Wizards of the Coast.
At this time, there have still been no announcements to indicate that such a product will ever be released.
I apologize for the inconvenience this has caused.

Here's what I think happened. The same idiots that complained about the original artwork for the 4e PHB complained about a demonic mini of that size. WotC caved but is just unable to admit when things aren't going perfectly, so they lie to us. If there had been no official announcement of the product, then how in Avernus did Amazon get that? Did they just make it up out of thin air? Would someone in the publication industry like to chime in? As an attorney, I'm guessing WotC has some legal action they can take against Amazon assuming WotC's story checks out. Of course, they'll be no legal action considering that, as usual, WotC's story won't check out.

Same story; different day. Great game designers; pathetic businessmen.
Rob Bodine @gsllc Convention Coordinator, synDCon @synDCon http://synDCon.net/ 4th Edition Dungeon Crawls: http://me.lt/2y0xi
It was said around Gen Con that the Icons line was going to be put on hold indefinately. Much like Dragons of the Hourglass Mage, which was supposed to be released in July but has been put on hold indefinately, amazon got ahold of Wizards catalog and put everything up for pre-order and when Wizards changed things amazon didn't.
It was said around Gen Con that the Icons line was going to be put on hold indefinately. Much like Dragons of the Hourglass Mage, which was supposed to be released in July but has been put on hold indefinately, amazon got ahold of Wizards catalog and put everything up for pre-order and when Wizards changed things amazon didn't.

The Rouse said it himself on ENWorld:

D&D Icons: Gargantuan Dracolich (D&D Miniatures Product) Aug 19, 2008

Nope, on hold with Gar. Orcus

Linky.
"Patience is the calm acceptance that things can happen in a different order than the one you have in mind."

~ David G. Allen

"On hold" is neither "released" nor "never officially announced." It looks like we've got yet another claim here.

OK, at least I will stop beating this dead horse now. Sorry for whining.
Rob Bodine @gsllc Convention Coordinator, synDCon @synDCon http://synDCon.net/ 4th Edition Dungeon Crawls: http://me.lt/2y0xi
"On hold" is neither "released" nor "never officially announced." It looks like we've got yet another claim here.

OK, at least I will stop beating this dead horse now. Sorry for whining.

Hey, I feel your pain.

Back when they released that Monster Manual pack, I e-mailed Customer Service to find out if they would be updating the MM2 and Fiend Folio to the 3.5 rules. The first person I talked to said yes, but when I asked again (after having a bunch of posters on these boards tell me the guy must have been wrong), a different rep told me the first guy was, indeed, wrong and they were not going to be updated. They were merely repackaging unsold stock to get it out of the warehouse or whatever ...
"Patience is the calm acceptance that things can happen in a different order than the one you have in mind."

~ David G. Allen

Damn... I was realy looking forward to the icons. Especialy becuase they're one of the few things you can pit against a epic good party.
"On hold indefinately" is just a nice way of saying "It has been canceled" in most cases, so no icons for us which is not a surprise when the metallic dragons are not in the MM.
There is an update booklet available for download on the main site that has all the updates for both MM2 and the Fiend Folio.

According to Worlds and Monsters the metallic dragons will be in the MM1 with 2 differences. First they will be changing the Brass and Bronze dragons for the Iron and Adamantine dragons. Second metallics are no longer always good aligned.
There is an update booklet available for download on the main site that has all the updates for both MM2 and the Fiend Folio.

Yes, I know. I had been hoping that those changes were going to be incorporated into the text of the books themselves but, alas, it was not to be.

According to Worlds and Monsters the metallic dragons will be in the MM1 with 2 differences. First they will be changing the Brass and Bronze dragons for the Iron and Adamantine dragons. Second metallics are no longer always good aligned.

These things we also know. However, as has already been mentioned, we have since learned that the metallic dragons are not going to be in the MM1. This was obviously a decision made after Worlds & Monsters was published and WotC has said on a number of occasions not to take what's written in either preview book as gospel as things were changing rapidly at the time they came out and are, to a certain extent, still changing. They are merely meant to be a "snapshot of the design process".
"Patience is the calm acceptance that things can happen in a different order than the one you have in mind."

~ David G. Allen

Try telling that to my friend. When ever i tell him something I've learned of
4th edition, he flips out becuase aparently owning wizards presents: classes and races makes him the master of 4E. Any way.. do think that if the metalics can be bad, the cromatics can be good? Just a thought, becuase this gives me the perfect chance to mess with player's heads.
Then I will ask you to give me the quote saying the metallics will not be in the MM1. Everything I have seen seems to say they will be there otherwise why waste the time to create 2 new dragon types?

Yes chromatics are no longer always evil. From the way it sounds the only things that are always a specific alignment will be a rare exception to the general rule.
Try telling that to my friend. When ever i tell him something I've learned of
4th edition, he flips out becuase aparently owning wizards presents: classes and races makes him the master of 4E. Any way.. do think that if the metalics can be bad, the cromatics can be good? Just a thought, becuase this gives me the perfect chance to mess with player's heads.

Yes. Neither group has alignment restrictions but I think you'll find that behaviorally, they're still pretty much the same ... that is to say, that metallics will still be manipulative and controlling while chromatics will still be destructive and violent. That sort of thing.

Although, that being said, the description of the iron dragon is that it's the metallics' "big dumb brute" counterpart to the chromatics' white dragon. So much for needless synergies or whatever ...
"Patience is the calm acceptance that things can happen in a different order than the one you have in mind."

~ David G. Allen

Then I will ask you to give me the quote saying the metallics will not be in the MM1. Everything I have seen seems to say they will be there otherwise why waste the time to create 2 new dragon types?

I'd suggest you take the time to read through the entire thread. You'll find that the quote you want has been posted twice already, once by me and once by another poster.

However, I think it bears repeating that the statement made by Massawyrm that there will be "no metallics in the MM" contradicts the statement made by WotC that "every Desert of Desolation mini will be in the first 4e MM" (considering that there's a copper dragon mini in that set). I don't think we'll know which statement is correct until we have the book in our hands, though. WotC's initial statement about that minis set was that every mini except one would be in the MM. (EDIT: I've started a thread seeking clarification about this over on ENWorld. See here.)

Here's one possibility:
1) WotC decides to cut the metallics from the MM early on. They ship out this version of the MM to playtesters like Massawyrm.
2) As a result, WotC states that all minis in the Desert of Desolation set but one (the copper dragon) will be in the MM.
3) WotC later decides that they can fit some, if not all, of the metallics into the first MM after all (perhaps they had originally kept the templates in the MM and later decided to move them to the DMG, thus freeing up some space for some more monsters or something).
4) As a result, WotC changes their statement about the minis to say that all of them will be in the MM after all.
5) However, WotC does not send out an updated version of the MM to playtesters like Massawyrm, so when his NDA is lifted, he makes the statement, based on his knowledge, that there are no metallics in the MM.
"Patience is the calm acceptance that things can happen in a different order than the one you have in mind."

~ David G. Allen

...You should be a detective.
...You should be a detective.

LOL. Well, I'm not having much luck at the moment.
"Patience is the calm acceptance that things can happen in a different order than the one you have in mind."

~ David G. Allen

How so pukunui?
How so pukunui?

Follow the link to ENWorld that I posted above and you'll see what I mean ...
"Patience is the calm acceptance that things can happen in a different order than the one you have in mind."

~ David G. Allen

Then I will ask you to give me the quote saying the metallics will not be in the MM1. Everything I have seen seems to say they will be there otherwise why waste the time to create 2 new dragon types?

Yes chromatics are no longer always evil. From the way it sounds the only things that are always a specific alignment will be a rare exception to the general rule.

Really, you need to read this entire thread. The relevant quotes have been provided and discussed almost ad nauseam.
Rob Bodine @gsllc Convention Coordinator, synDCon @synDCon http://synDCon.net/ 4th Edition Dungeon Crawls: http://me.lt/2y0xi
Something just struck an idea in my head. There's a silver dragon in Dungeons of dread, and it's supposed to be all the common and basic minis. Surely that means they'll all be in the mm.
Something just struck an idea in my head. There's a silver dragon in Dungeons of dread, and it's supposed to be all the common and basic minis. Surely that means they'll all be in the mm.

Can you point us to where you saw that? I'm not disputing you. Just can't find it myself ...
"Patience is the calm acceptance that things can happen in a different order than the one you have in mind."

~ David G. Allen

Can you point us to where you saw that? I'm not disputing you. Just can't find it myself ...

DDM Spoilers - it's not exactly an 'official' source, but the photos of the minis are from D&D Experience where all the minis from Dungeons of Dread were on display.

GamerZero also put a video on Youtube where Blue interviewed Rob Heinsoo (IIRC) - all the minis are shown shortly. I cannot access the site right now, but if you have trouble finding it, there should also be a link on GamerZero's blog for D&D Experience.
DDM Spoilers - it's not exactly an 'official' source, but the photos of the minis are from D&D Experience where all the minis from Dungeons of Dread were on display.

GamerZero also put a video on Youtube where Blue interviewed Rob Heinsoo (IIRC) - all the minis are shown shortly. I cannot access the site right now, but if you have trouble finding it, there should also be a link on GamerZero's blog for D&D Experience.

Right. I've seen the pics and watched the video but it was a while ago and I didn't remember hearing or reading anything about whether or not all the Dungeons of Dread minis would be in the first MM.
"Patience is the calm acceptance that things can happen in a different order than the one you have in mind."

~ David G. Allen