5/19/2014 MM: "Conspiracy Talk"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.

I figure I'm in the minority since I've always seen articles about drafting and am seeing more and more articles about cube, but you could not have made a set that appeals to me less than a set specifically designed around drafting.

I could not disagree with you more. Very excited about this set and getting more multiplayer friends into draft and drafters into multiplayer shenanigans.

while i dont mind the multiplayer focus, I HATE the draft matters cards. The conspiracy cards are not too bad because you could always come up with another use for them in casual, something like making a deck of them and letting each player draw one at random.  Its the when you draft this cards that i hate, they will only ever be used once if even that.

I guess the thing that confuses me the most is that its a set designed to be drafted , but also designed for multiplayer.  Are you supposed to do an 8 player draft then play an 8 player game? I think they are focusing on two completely different things that do not go well together. Drafting appeals to more tournament style players, and multiplayer appeals to more casual players.

First let me tell you that I'm hugely pumped for conspiracy. Most the things it stands for I'm in total support of. HOWEVER, there's one thing that pisses me off a bit that I need to get off of my chest. The "draft matters" theme sort of feels like a huge cop out by wizards, sort of a cheap gimmick that undermines the whole continuity of magic. Let me explain. In my opinion, one of the unwritten rules that CAN'T be broken is that the format should NOT be mentioned on cards. Format is a tournament rule, cards only should affect game rules. They broke this rule and that sort of de-sanctifies cards a bit, since the game just loses a bit of its modular feel. IMO its a bit like "ante" cards, they're "normal" cards, with "normal" backs, and nothing "fake" about them, that can't be used in "normal" games. Or if they can be used in normal games, they lose a huge chunk of their functionality. It would be like a card that said "draw 2 cards, unless you are playing Vintage, in which case draw 3 cards."

 

They should have stuck the draft-matters theme in the Conspiracy cards ONLY, not on the normal magic cards. 

mulen wrote:

while i dont mind the multiplayer focus, I HATE the draft matters cards. The conspiracy cards are not too bad because you could always come up with another use for them in casual, something like making a deck of them and letting each player draw one at random.  Its the when you draft this cards that i hate, they will only ever be used once if even that.

I guess the thing that confuses me the most is that its a set designed to be drafted , but also designed for multiplayer.  Are you supposed to do an 8 player draft then play an 8 player game? I think they are focusing on two completely different things that do not go well together. Drafting appeals to more tournament style players, and multiplayer appeals to more casual players.

The suggested mix is an eight-person draft that splits up into two four-player games. And the draft-matters cards can be used for years in cubes. (I know of at least two people planning on getting all of them for their cubes.) As for who it appeals to...let's see how well it sells.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

4 player is that much more social

 

a rules issue comes up on the subject of advice

i would hope to allow for it baring decussions of unrevealed cards

not even an if

NO WAR

On Entrance; put a land you control owner's hand.

: gather , or .

and tap a creature you control: add or remove

   an underground counter to or from that creaure.

Creatures with underground counters

  can only block or be blocked by

  other creatures with underground counters.

  ~ancient and forgotten dwell

 

If you didn't read it, today's Developing Conspiracy article clarifies that there is one "draft affecting" card per pack, taking the place of the land slot.  So if you're worried about not getting long-term value out of the cards (understandable) that should hopefully assuage it.  Surely more cards than that become trash or proxies out of any regular draft.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

TheKazu wrote:

First let me tell you that I'm hugely pumped for conspiracy. Most the things it stands for I'm in total support of. HOWEVER, there's one thing that pisses me off a bit that I need to get off of my chest. The "draft matters" theme sort of feels like a huge cop out by wizards, sort of a cheap gimmick that undermines the whole continuity of magic. Let me explain. In my opinion, one of the unwritten rules that CAN'T be broken is that the format should NOT be mentioned on cards. Format is a tournament rule, cards only should affect game rules. They broke this rule and that sort of de-sanctifies cards a bit, since the game just loses a bit of its modular feel. IMO its a bit like "ante" cards, they're "normal" cards, with "normal" backs, and nothing "fake" about them, that can't be used in "normal" games. Or if they can be used in normal games, they lose a huge chunk of their functionality. It would be like a card that said "draw 2 cards, unless you are playing Vintage, in which case draw 3 cards."

 

They should have stuck the draft-matters theme in the Conspiracy cards ONLY, not on the normal magic cards. 

You nailed it on the head, wizards breaks unwritten rules all the time, and some times it turns out ok. I actually liked the double face cards for example, but breaking the fourth wall like this just takes away from the game and the cards are useless when you are not drafting.  The most powerful card in the game contract from below (possibly more powerful than black lotus) can be found in the dollar bin because it is unplayable for the same reason.

If I may ask, how are "draft matters" cards more fourth-wall breaking than, say, Relentless Rats? Unless you also consider that to be fourth-wall breaking, of course.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

mulen wrote:

 

TheKazu wrote:

First let me tell you that I'm hugely pumped for conspiracy. Most the things it stands for I'm in total support of. HOWEVER, there's one thing that pisses me off a bit that I need to get off of my chest. The "draft matters" theme sort of feels like a huge cop out by wizards, sort of a cheap gimmick that undermines the whole continuity of magic. Let me explain. In my opinion, one of the unwritten rules that CAN'T be broken is that the format should NOT be mentioned on cards. Format is a tournament rule, cards only should affect game rules. They broke this rule and that sort of de-sanctifies cards a bit, since the game just loses a bit of its modular feel. IMO its a bit like "ante" cards, they're "normal" cards, with "normal" backs, and nothing "fake" about them, that can't be used in "normal" games. Or if they can be used in normal games, they lose a huge chunk of their functionality. It would be like a card that said "draw 2 cards, unless you are playing Vintage, in which case draw 3 cards."

 

They should have stuck the draft-matters theme in the Conspiracy cards ONLY, not on the normal magic cards. 

 

You nailed it on the head, wizards breaks unwritten rules all the time, and some times it turns out ok. I actually liked the double face cards for example, but breaking the fourth wall like this just takes away from the game and the cards are useless when you are not drafting.  The most powerful card in the game contract from below (possibly more powerful than black lotus) can be found in the dollar bin because it is unplayable for the same reason.

 

But they've been mentioning format for a while. In the commander products Command Tower mentions the commander, which only exists in that format. A few cards (okay, admittedly in Unglued and Future Sight) mention teammates, which only exist in a subset of multiplayer formats. That's kind of the point on having a focused product: you can call out things that don't normally matter.

 

My concern is that I like multiplayer (and some of these will find a home in commander decks  or a cube), and like drafting well enough, but drafting packs is an expensive proposition. Once the pack is opened, it's value drops precipitously. Too much of a packs value is tied up in the mystery or what might be in there. It's a one-time experience. How often have we drafted, had fun, then just shuffled a ton of commons off to the trash?

 

That's why I prefer a semi-stable, reusable card pool like a cube. The draft matters cards may have a home in cube. But cube is also singleton, which means that at most one person gets the clockwork librarian, or any conspiracy or the like. That makes it a very different experience from cracking packs.

 

Why I buy some game product (video games, board games, magic cards, anything) I like to kno wthat I can come back, pick it up in a year with friends, and get some replay value out of it. Unless you hoard a large, large number of conspiracy (or modern masters) packs (which, if the pool is large enough could be repacked for a fresh experience), then it's hard to get repeat play value out of it.

Astarael7 wrote:

If I may ask, how are "draft matters" cards more fourth-wall breaking than, say, Relentless Rats? Unless you also consider that to be fourth-wall breaking, of course.

 

This comes close, but at least its still a magic card. It still can be used in all magic decks. Its a bit gimmicky but it isn't so gimmicky that it breaks the modularity of the game. 

As a casual player, I seem to fall into the large group that has an issue with the DRAFT cards. I love the idea and creativity. I just wish that there was an alternative to DRAFT. If there was some other way to use DRAFT after that first time, they would be more than over priced vanillas. I still think there is time to add rules to what DRAFT means in the book. The rest of the cards look great.

MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green).

He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one."

I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago." ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************MaRo: During a playtest, I played a Reaper from the Abyss. I attacked each turn, while my opponent would chump block (he had a lot of fliers), and then I killed a second creature. This happened until he had only one creature left. I attack, he blocked, and then the following dialogue occurred:

Him: Kill your demon. Me: What? Him: My guy died so you have to kill a creature.

Me: Yeah, but why would a demon kill himself?

Him: I don't know. He's depressed there's no one left to kill.

Me: That doesn't make any sense. Him: I don't care. It's what the card says. I then take out my pen, and wrote "non-Demon" on it.

Him: You can't do that.

Me: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

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