5/12/2014 MM: "In My Day"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.

Rarity colors and collector numbers started in Exodus, not UL. The new feaure for UL was foil cards, so perhaps Mark is erroneously recalling that.

The captions next to the two newest podcasts do not match their links.  They should read Zendikar, Part 3 & Zendikar, Part 4 respectfully.  

P.S.  If this is part of a "conspiracy" I apologize for pointing it out =P.

No mention of MANA BURN? I had JUST built a wacky deck that abused the mana burn rule, then literally days later I recall Maro announcing it was no longer a real thing! 

I'm guessing mana burn is not really something printed on the card.  Seems like MaRo was focusing on things you can read (or not) on the physical cardboard.

 

Since I never really played that much before 6E rules, the biggest change to me is still the blocking rules change from only 2-3 years back.  I don't play much, other than with my kids, and I am pretty sure I am not explaining it correctly to them.  At least we don't own any cards with Banding, it could be worse .

I don't think Mark is remembering the stack rules entirely correctly. It was always Last In, First Out but with exceptions.  (Like Damage was delayed to the bottom of the stack so you couldn't kill a creature with Lightning Bolt in response to a Giant Growth.)  You also couldn't partially resolve the stack and then add spells.  Once players were done adding things, it all resolved.

 

But probably the most confusing thing about those pre-6th rules is that triggered effects didn't use the stack at all, meaning no response time.  If I cast a Nekretaal and you have a Spike Feeder and a Birds of Paradise, you wouldn't know which creature I was targeting until it was too late to sacrifice the Feeder.  This played very badly with players' tendency to rush things.  So you'd get this:

 

"I cast Nekretaal killing your Spike Feeder"

"In response I sacrifice the Spike Feeder"

"Well then I kill the Birds."

"Judge!"

 

The only thing about these changes I didn't really care for was the effect on tapping a target. Tapping is a pretty minor effect, especially on a one-shot, and today it rarely means more than "that creature can't attack or block until next turn."  This makes it mostly unplayable, except for reuseable effects used as pseudo-removal in Limited.  Under older rules, tapping was still minor but more broad.  This gave it a "charm"-level appeal where you played it not for power but for flexibility.  I could stop your attack OR turn off an artifact OR change your blocking math.  (Or rob you of mana. That one still technically works but changes in timing and mana burn make it less effective.)  I understand why they did it, but there's something fun and Planeswalker-ish about saying "this is my spell, and it may not look like much but see all the things I can do with it".

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

I think you needed a bit more fact-checking, Mark; in addition to the other errors mentioned above, the Mana Source card type wasn't introduced in Sixth Edition--it was eliminated in Sixth Edition. It was introduced a couple years before then, as can be seen from the Tempest Dark Ritual shown in the article.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

mana source wasn't needed one could let an intance resolve off the stack before puttimg another effect on the stack

NO WAR

 

Sivitri Scarzam rose to challenge the Craw Wurm but was slain by Durkwood Boars.

Liliana emergent

From the fine article:

 

We left alone cards like Howling Mind though, that had been reprinted with the new errata, as there were more cards with the errata in print than without.

 

 

--------------------------------------

Why, then, was Reconnaissance recently given new timing restrictions that aren't mentioned on the card's sole printing in Exodus? I doubt that anyone would suspect Reconnaissance's Oracle text from reading the card alone.

Yes correct, both of you.

 

Mana Source cards aren't really as complicated as they may seem in hindsight. It was just a debate over whether mana spells should be treated as uncounterable like tapping land, or as regular spells.  They went one way and then 6th edition flipped to the other.

 

Interrupts however were so freaking weird. The Red Elemental Blast vs Prodigal Sorcerer case is because they thought interrupts had such timing priority it could prevent a cost.  But not a mana cost source, which is why Dark Ritual was promoted.  It was later decided that preventing a cost wasn't worth the rules headache, and thank goodness for that.  I really liked the 6e changes at the time, and even more so with history.

 

Losing "damage on the stack" however still hasn't grown on me, and I want it back. :p

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

There is a typo in the article that threw me off: "For example, let's say your opponent had arror in his or her hand and wished to destroy your Shivan Dragon." That should be Terror instead of arror.

Cool article.  I'm just gettig back into playing, and I was VERY active last during the revised period, I actually pretty much stopped when Ice Age came out. 

 

Amarsir wrote:

I don't think Mark is remembering the stack rules entirely correctly. It was always Last In, First Out but with exceptions.  (Like Damage was delayed to the bottom of the stack so you couldn't kill a creature with Lightning Bolt in response to a Giant Growth.)  You also couldn't partially resolve the stack and then add spells.  Once players were done adding things, it all resolved.

 

While I used to play in tournaments, I will freely admit that I wasn't perfectly knowledgable with the rules, but...

 

The order did go last in first out, but the way I understood the exception for life was that like what happened for the actual player, the creature's life didn't finally resolve until the end of the phase, so the life for that creature could drop to -2, but as long as I played a Giant Growth on it before that phase was over, it would live.  That included that I might do that when it has already attacked.

 

Also from my foggy memory, interupts were called interupts because they could be played as a specific response to something, although they could also be played separately as the Red Elemental Blast showed (destroying a blue card).  It really isn't *that* different than how it is played today - I knew very few people that could tell you the difference between an Interupt and an Instant since Interupt cards made it pretty clear they were only played in response to other cards.

 

But probably the most confusing thing about those pre-6th rules is that triggered effects didn't use the stack at all, meaning no response time.  If I cast a Nekretaal and you have a Spike Feeder and a Birds of Paradise, you wouldn't know which creature I was targeting until it was too late to sacrifice the Feeder.  This played very badly with players' tendency to rush things.  So you'd get this:

 

"I cast Nekretaal killing your Spike Feeder"

"In response I sacrifice the Spike Feeder"

"Well then I kill the Birds."

"Judge!"

 

I don't remember triggered effects being on many cards in the ABUR era, so I rarely remember having this problem.  The triggered effects I can remember, such as tapping things to do things, we resolved in reverse order.

 

The only thing about these changes I didn't really care for was the effect on tapping a target. Tapping is a pretty minor effect, especially on a one-shot, and today it rarely means more than "that creature can't attack or block until next turn."  This makes it mostly unplayable, except for reuseable effects used as pseudo-removal in Limited.  Under older rules, tapping was still minor but more broad.  This gave it a "charm"-level appeal where you played it not for power but for flexibility.  I could stop your attack OR turn off an artifact OR change your blocking math.  (Or rob you of mana. That one still technically works but changes in timing and mana burn make it less effective.)  I understand why they did it, but there's something fun and Planeswalker-ish about saying "this is my spell, and it may not look like much but see all the things I can do with it".

 

I actually agree with this quite a bit.  Back then, the Icy Manipulator was a HUGE card because of the interactions you could do with it and cards like the Howling Mine and Winter Orb.  I still remember playing in a big Sealed Deck tournament, probably 30 or so people, $25 entry, and the prize for winning the entire thing was an Icy Manipulator, which at the time was worth around $80.  Dual lands at the same time?  $10 or so.

 

It's fascinating how the game has changed, and one thing that I am actually really surprised by at this point in time is that with all the change, they have found a way to keep all the cards still functional.  Well, except the cards that were still horribly broken when I was first playing (ahem, Power 9, looking at you) are still broken...  but it really shows just how genius the original concept and game was that it is still going strong 20 years later.

>The order did go last in first out, but the way I understood the exception for life was that like what happened for the actual player, the creature's life didn't finally resolve until the end of the phase, so the life for that creature could drop to -2, but as long as I played a Giant Growth on it before that phase was over, it would live.  That included that I might do that when it has already attacked.

 

State checks eventually solved when one considered only the state themselves and not the transition

perhaps players death checks were moved to match the logic

NO WAR

 

Sivitri Scarzam rose to challenge the Craw Wurm but was slain by Durkwood Boars.

Liliana emergent

The only removed rule that I wish was still here was mana burn. Beginners shouldn't be caring about it anyway, because it never comes up unless you're playing with **** that probably needs it to come up, and it made some effects way more interesting. It made fun flavour sense too. 

Why is it so hard to get new articles linked to new forum threads?  Frequently I see that the article links to last week's forum thread.  I suspect there's a lot of cut-and-paste going on in the editing room ;) .

it's like the guy that developed unglued is in charge

NO WAR

 

Sivitri Scarzam rose to challenge the Craw Wurm but was slain by Durkwood Boars.

Liliana emergent

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