This thread is for discussion of this week's Feature, "Wide Beta Update: WInds of Change", which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
As much as I appreciate the work being put in to a new client, forcing it on everyone whilst completely scrapping the current client feels like a huge mistake. I for one completely hate the current Beta client. It's performance is sluggish even though my computer is good, has a lot of confusing and unneccesary UI issues, and in particular the interface in games is just overly complicated. From things like the stack to where it was decided the exile zone and more should go, it's just not as good as the current client. At least giving the players the option to continue using the current client is much more reasonable, even if you plan on abandoning it.
I'm sure nothing I say will change what is going to happen, but I'm also sure I don't stand alone in this opinion. I wouldn't go as far as quitting MTGO thanks to this change, but I know the experience won't ever be the same. I wish some consideration would be put into this as many people are attached to the old client compared to the Beta.
Well, I for one think the new client SUCKS!!!! I've been playing for a lot of years and have put forth a great deal of money on this game and I think it's so wrong to force me to now be stuck playing on a client that makes the game a nightmare. I honestly don't know if I will keep playing at this point. Thanks MTGO
I've given my feedback in the survey, but adding it to this thread because the more it gets complained about, the more likely the team might do something about it.
I don't really have that many issues with the client compared to V3, V3 is probably very comfortable for players to use, but - frankly, many new players would get lost in V3's interface, V3 looks and feels like an old program, and has a frankly horrible UI.
Beta is much better in this regard, it feels like a more modern program and the UI is in most places improved 100%.
However, this comes at a cost of a memory footprint that is about 10x higher than V3, which is completely unacceptable. This memory footprint causes a lot of freezing issues for me, for example - in sealed deckbuilding, MODO started lagging quite badly, and I ended up losing about 5 mins of deckbuilding time in total to freezes.
Honestly, Magic Online is an embarrasment - I'm sure the devs (and probably everyone at Wizards and in this thead) have had a chance to play Hearthstone - when starting it up it has a nice tutorial that introduces you to the game and mechanics. The interface is clean, and everything just works, it is a well poslished product. Magic, being a more complex game - can't have some of these features - as HS was designed to be a simpler game. However, the polish and responsivenes of Hearthstone is something I would really like to see in Magic online. There is strong competition out there for digital CCGS, and Magic Online is probably the most expensive, least accessable to new players, has the worst UI and has real performance problems. The compation is simply too good to allow that, and it seems like Magic is resting on the fact that Magic is the best physical Card Game - design wise, and lots of players want to play it online.
My experiences with Magic Online probably mean I'll be sticking to paper magic for the future. If I want digital, competing games are good enough to scratch that itch.
I think Randomtime offers a pretty reasonable perspective there. I'm not going to quit Magic no matter what the MTGO client does or doesn't do, but I *have* found myself doing my drafting in SolForge instead of MTGO. That's your competition if you want me to spend time and money on MTGO. Along those lines, if your competition is "free-to-play" CCGs, perhaps it makes sense to lower the barrier to entry by putting more support towards things like Standard Pauper and Phantom Drafts.
Whats the likelyhood to getting linux support in the future?
I really wonder if people read the feedback because I have lots of mtgo player friends, and the feedback on beta goes to ¨Worse than v3 but edible¨ to ¨unplayable crap¨. I don´t know a single person that think it´s an improvement, how it looks, feels, UI in any way. For what i get from forums or whatnot is a general feeling and yet the train keeps going to it´s trainwrech. What´s the feedback for then?
I'm going to have to agree with every single poster so far, the new client simply doesn't cut it. Maybe you've been designing it for ages now and feel the pride in releasing a "brand new client", but in the meantime it's already gone old. Hearthstone, in terms of responsiveness, fluidity and user-friendliness is light years above MTGO. As the previous posters have said, what's keeping MTGO afloat is the fact that it's a heck-of-a-game, the best of it's kind in paper form. My love for the game itself will probably keep me playing MTG online, but as a concerned long-time player of MTG I'm worried what the opposing digital competition will do to MTGO with it's superior clients when it catches up in complexity and playability.
My petition? Keep V3 usable for those of us who wish to keep using it after the new client is released.
Windows didn't destroy every single XP out there when they terminated their support for it.
I'm on board with others that think the new client is bad. Having recently tried it, again, it's still not as good as V3. Little issues keep popping up and there are features that are missing, on top of it just being difficult to navigate and use.
I also enjoy watching others stream magic, and it's quite clear from Twitch that all the streamers enjoy V3 more. With few exceptions, all the streamers use V3. For good reason -- it's better.
I'm sure the development of the new program has been a headache to all involved and I imagine ugly meetings with Hasbro. But, please, don't retire V3 until you have a better replacement.
I cannot believe the vanity of wizards with this horrible beta client and imposing it on their users in a couple of months. I tried it the other day to get ready for the "spotlight" and my blood pressure went up significantly. There are so many ways it is inadequate to V3 I don't know where to start, but I will try based on my experience yesterday:
-Windows - Why is every new window outside the main program now??? I do not like filling up my windows taskbar with 50 pop ups from one game and I don't imagine anyone does. These windows should all be part of the main program.
-Deck Builder - I cannot save my deck or even do "save as" instead the deck is "autosaved" at all times. Thanks Stalin, way to tell me when to save instead of letting me move the cards around and try to visualize how I want my deck/curve to be. Save/"Save as" should be an elementary feature and the fact that it is not available in wide beta is alarming.
-The stack (maybe the most annoying/confusing part). V3, this is nicely stacked on the side vertically. Wide beta, the stack is horizontal and in the middle of the screen. ITS A STACK, google image "stack" and look carefully at how the items sort. Are they going vertical or horizontal? Keep it on the side of the screen as well, no need to cover up my board state.
-Chat is non-intuitive. In V3 chat is nicely grouped in one section with tabs on the right side of my screen. In beta client I have a bunch of pop ups bombarding my screen and sometimes they don't even work. I closed out of the game chat box and at some point my opponent messaged me and all the I get is a message saying " X has sent you a message" (something along those lines). I go to click this prompt and nothing comes up to show me what he typed?? Never wound up talking to guy because I couldnt figure out where his message was. Why prompt me with a link if the link to his chat doesn't work. HORRIBLE.
-Visually it looks WORSE. I think in general it just looks worse/cartoony compared to the V3. Everything somehow manages to feel smaller in the new version as well (and yes I did try adjusting the card sizes manually which helped a little).
-Sound - garbage
There were other things I wanted to criticize but this is all I could remember this morning. With all the money that past MTGO has brought to your company you should be embarassed that this is the best client you could put out in years. We really do not even need to complain though, if they force users to use this client permenantly, the shrinking user base/profits in the following months will be the best response. I love the game of magic itself and mostly play online so this is extremely disappointing to me and can only hope you guys can put the ego aside and listen to your customers.
I'd just like to point out the fact that after creating several "Collections" of Binders, there is currently no way to delete them...seriously? I can create a "Collection" (bar on the left I click on to see bingers or decks) but I can't remove and/or rename them? ... Seriously?
I have been playing on MTGO since 2004. I have a considerable collection, I play quite a lot (although not as much as I used to do). I have used both versions, and for the two things that matter to me, Beta is much worse.
First, it's very difficult to trade with Beta. When you open trade with a bot, you have to find the correct buttons to filter the correct cards to see. If you misclick, all of a sudden the client loads tons of pictures, which freezes the program, even if for a short while. Say you want to go from checking opponents mythics in Ravnica to his commons in Theros. This requires like 10 clicks, each of which brings about loading of thousands of cards and a slight freeze while loading.
I'm not even mentioning how recently I tried to make 50 tickets tradeable, but I could not because I already had 60K commons tradeable. I had to switch to V3 to do this operation. The solution in Beta that was given by ORCs was quite complicated and it didn't work anyway.
Second. In the few times I tried to play with BETA, each time I had a different problem. Game freezing while sideboarding and never loading, joining a queue but when I restart a client for whatever reason seeing that I was kicked out of the queue, each time the client is loading it trying to load all my previous draft decks.
Big big disappointment here. V3 has its set of problems (such as automatically opening tournament scenes which take ages to load) but I'm sure they would have been much better had the attention to BETA been given to V3.
Customers will have the last say, and I'm pretty sure WotC will have its lesson when Hasbro scalds them after they see the change in numbers. I guess it's a way of WotC telling us to find another hobby.
I'd like first to say I've been playing On MTGO since 2004 or around there. I have a decent collection from over the years and i play online quite frequently. I've tried multiple times to give the wide beta a chance to impress me and convert over to it but its just bad. Im going to name some of the reasons i dislike the beta below in the hopes that maybe Wizards will listen to what the people who buy there products want.
These arent in any particular order just as they came to mind.
Reason 1: Getting a game going is confusing. The way its set up to make or join a game is awful. In the V3 version you have 1 simple window that launches a game. In the Beta you have to check off multiple options before you get a chance to play.
Reason 2: The deck editor on the beta is garbage. Sifting thru your collection is 100x easier on the V3 client then it is on the Beta. I built a deck on the beta didnt realize i didnt have have the copies of the cards ( The beta lets you add more then you have) and when i went to save and use it it just keeps telling me "You dont own all of the cards"...Ok well tell me which i dont own so i can fix it. I dont think im being that unreasonable asking for the game to tell that.
Reason 3: The UI for battling is awkward. Now maybe this is just me but i doubt it and maybe im just really use to V3 which is a good possibility. It just seems out of whack. I think the Battle UI could be greatly improved by moving certain things around or by making it look like V3 but with the beta's infrastructure under it. Or how about you let the players customize the entire screen. You'd be able to set up your "play mat" any way youd like and also how your opponents looks to you.
There are more reasons but those are the ones that keep coming to mind as im wriitng this. I wont quit playing because i love magic but i will slow down on buying anything untill the issuses are fixed.
If you are an honest man, please consider what these customers and more are saying about the new client. I myself have been playing online since V2. I recall a slight pushback when changing to V3, but nothing like this. V3 was an immense upgrade from V2. This current Beta is NOT an upgrade. It is a players nightmare, totally, frustratingly difficult to navigate or understand. I will not be logging in to the wide beta test for Journey into Nyx. There is no other way to show my disappointment, besides writing it here. I own a business and if a customer who spent hundreds of dollars a month told me he was dissatisfied with a forced implementation, and would no longer be getting his business, I WOULD LISTEN! Personally, I spend WAY too much money on V3, hundreds per month, but I ENJOY the gameplay and it keeps me coming back for more. I am serious when I say, if I am forced to use that Beta client, my money will still be going to Magic; the Gathering, but in the form of paper cards, not digital. And then most likely through the secondary market.
Chris Dougherty (Marduk4526)
I dont understand how every version release is worse than the last. How can you not even get a scroll bar right. The link below exlpains mtgo perfectly
too many things to say when i feel even if i was to relay them all i would be barking up the wrong tree. best to vote with my wallet and not play at all. that will get their attention. just played my first and only 2HG of the two days. sorry but i will go play with my family instead.
Edit profile would mean email change for sure
I just attempted to play on the Beta Client and it was a totally miserable experience. First I wanted to load a deck I had been playing on the current client and it was nowhere to be found. I had to go to the current client, save it as a .txt file then load it from that location on the Beta. This whole process was extremely slow and the deck builder/collection viewer was constantly freezing and it took me 10+ minutes to do something that would've taken me 30 seconds to do in the current client. Then I went to find a game which proved difficult to find and wasn't intuitive at all. Once the match started, sure enough on turn 2 the client froze and wasn't responding for several minutes before finally recovering and saying that I had been disconnected. When I relogged the match was nowhere to be found.
My experience with the beta has been nothing short of horrible. It is a completely unplayable client with constant freezes and unintuitive interfaces in practically every scene. If the switch really does become mandatory I will be selling everything on my account and never touching Magic Online again. This isn't something I want to do since I love playing on the current client crashes aside, but the new client really is that bad and I for one won't be wasting any of my time or money on it.
Here's another post the developers won't listen to. I have filled out every survey you have ever asked about the beta. I have NEVER seen any of the things I brought up fixed. First, I will NOT NOT NOT NOT be doing the Nyx prerelease. I REFUSE to use this garbage software.
Second, for entertainment purposes, I will only ask questions.
Why doesn't the program fit on the screen? I run in 1920 X 1080 and the windowed version is too big to see and the full screen mode blocks out my toolbar. I have to alt-tab to change windows. Awesome.
Why can't I control screen resolution in the settings?
Why can't I adjust the size of the window in "windowed mode?"
Why can't I create my own filter in the deck editor?
Why is that red bar in the middle of the battlefield?
Why can't I see my opponents' cards in multiplayer? They are so small I have to click on them to see them.
Why can't the stack be mounted to the side of the screen and always be open?
Why do graveyards open automatically everytime a card is put there?
Why did you change the hotkeys for untapping lands?
Why is this NEW client slower to use abilities than the old client?
Why can't I delete the collections I create?
Why can't I use custom art?
Why do I have to apply so many filters just to join a game?
Why can't I choose easily from my decklists as I could in the last client?
Why does everything open into another window?
Did anyone in your design team even study graphic layout?
Don't you know it's wrong to clutter the frame?
Why is this client graphically inferior to Duels of the Planeswalkers?
If the point of Duels of the Planeswalkers is to encourage new players to join Magic, why would you create software that is nothing like Duels of the Planeswalkers?
Why is this new cleint harder to use than Duels of the Planeswalkers?
Why after pushing this thing for two years and having so much bad feedback are you continuing to push this?
Why are you purposely ignoring the players?
Why don't we have access to all the feedback surveys so that we can see all the praise you have been getting for this beta?
Is it because it doesn't exist?
I agree with everyone's complaint.
Did you guys even improve anything??? Knee jerk reaction was "what the hell have you guys been doing for the last 6 months since the last failed attempt?"
I understand computer programing can be very complex - especially with a game involving so many intrecate rules and interactions. However, you guys have a solid base to work from - why the hell are you trying to strart from scratch?
Take what you have, make a survey asking what people would like improved and then improve those leaving the rest of it alone.
In my town, they built a new hospital - they designed a giant super fancy, high end, marble stair case work of art. Spent billions of dollars on making it look really pretty and now they have no money for equipment. The concept is the same: stop trying to get fancy. Stop trying to make something completely new and work off of what you already have. Use the structures that people like and build off of those instead of changing everything (including what people like). We don't care about a new look - it looked fine before... fix the stupid things like how we cannot scroll down during a tournament to see results and how there is not a working tutorial for new players. Fix, instead of replacing - you would of had more sucess had you went with this approach.
Long story short - you force this client on me and I will be quitting Magic Online. Its annoying as hell to use and I really can't stand playing on it.
The "Official" thread in the forums to let WOTC know how you feel about the Beta client can be found here: http://community.wizards.com/forum/magic-online-general/threads/4081656
Alright, first of all I've been around for EVERY beta. I actually played games in the others, each one has gotten worse then the previous.You've gotten praise about this beta? Please, stop lying... none of us are blind and you all at wizards shouldn't be either seeing nothing but bad stuff here. I wonder what kind of an illusion you have to be trapped in to think this is acceptable. Now I have to give a thanks to mertonyx, you more or less pretyped all that for me
-Windows - Why is every new window outside the main program now??? I do not like filling up my windows taskbar with 50 pop ups from one game and I don't imagine anyone does. These windows should all be part of the main program. ***How does this make anything better???
-Deck Builder - I cannot save my deck or even do "save as" instead the deck is "autosaved" at all times. Thanks Stalin, way to tell me when to save instead of letting me move the cards around and try to visualize how I want my deck/curve to be. Save/"Save as" should be an elementary feature and the fact that it is not available in wide beta is alarming. ***Yes, what if I'm trying to make a different version of the same deck and want to keep the version I modified as well?? Hmm...
-The stack (maybe the most annoying/confusing part). V3, this is nicely stacked on the side vertically. Wide beta, the stack is horizontal and in the middle of the screen. ITS A STACK, google image "stack" and look carefully at how the items sort. Are they going vertical or horizontal? Keep it on the side of the screen as well, no need to cover up my board state. ***Enough said.
-Chat is non-intuitive. In V3 chat is nicely grouped in one section with tabs on the right side of my screen. In beta client I have a bunch of pop ups bombarding my screen and sometimes they don't even work. I closed out of the game chat box and at some point my opponent messaged me and all the I get is a message saying " X has sent you a message" (something along those lines). I go to click this prompt and nothing comes up to show me what he typed?? Never wound up talking to guy because I couldnt figure out where his message was. Why prompt me with a link if the link to his chat doesn't work. HORRIBLE. ***Chat has never been great but once we get used to it why change it? If what we have had the ability to get used to others can do it as well, why start that whole process over with everyone AND take steps back in the process?
-Visually it looks WORSE. I think in general it just looks worse/cartoony compared to the V3. Everything somehow manages to feel smaller in the new version as well (and yes I did try adjusting the card sizes manually which helped a little). ***Searching your library is absolutely the worst part.
Maybe reading/seeing these again will help sink it in...
My only real interaction with MTGO is that I like to watch people play it on twitch.tv in the morning when I'm doing my exercises. It keeps me connected to the game, I get to see the current limited format, etc.
Last evening, and this morning, there was nobody streaming MTGO at all. Usually there are at least three, with hundreds of viewers. M:tG was down below Super Mario Sunshine on the list of Twitch games.
Either all the streamers dislike the beta so much that they cancelled their regularly scheduled streams (!) or the beta is technically incompatible with streaming (!). I'm not sure which would be worse.
Please find a better solution for the stack and deck cards revealed zone. Solve crashes, light the program and turn low some tournaments entry costs. Something near 2-3 tickets can be more reasonable.
Must agree with others that the Beta is unplayable for me. I am a longtime Magic player, and I really want badly to like the new client, however, it is just worse than V3 in most ways.
The cards themselves look more cartoony or 2D to me, I'm not sure what the graphical reason is for that. They tap strangely all at once, not fluidly, the Stack and theSteps and phases of Turn should be visually located vertically near each other similar to V3 to keep eye movement on screen to a minimum.
The light backgrounds and graphic layout, make it look very "programmy" like Excel or something. The collection is brutal to me, the cluttering and cards are just smashed too close together, much better in V3 with space between cards and a darker background.
The UI is just extremely unintuitive and visually confusing. No click sound on the OK button bugs me, as well as a few other things which I won't go into now. Also, associations, deckbuilding, even the duel scene are bad.
There are just too many windows, filters, parameters, and it makes for a very confusing, cluttered look.
Also the client is still laggy and Memory intensive.
I really hope tghe decision to use this client is reconsidered, as I fear I will play less MTGO, not more because of it, and I love MTGO.
I have been playing this game since a month after it was released roughly 11 and a half+ years ago. All the versions up to now were essentially similar. Fast forward to today, and my complaint is with the new client in its entirety.
I find the buddy list taking 40% of the screen when I log in to be wholly unnecessary.
The new deck editor/collection combo is overly complicated in comparison to V.3. Not that I wasn't able to figure out what needed to be done in order to do what I wanted, but what a hassle!
I found creating a table to be an annoyance. Why are there multiple dropdown boxes on the left hand side in order to get a game started?
I usually play with my clan members and buddies, and I see they cut the time limit (which a few years back the game had the option for *untimed games*) down from the maximum 90 min. to 60. Occasionally me and said buddies have gone down to the wire in a 90 min. game. I guess there goes that.
You removed "Allow Starting Handicaps". Me and my buds/clannies enjoy playing 40 life, 10 hand games. Guess that's gone too.
It is awful trying to chat with anyone while we are playing a game due to everything getting its "own window". Having to repeatedly click on that persons' name in the taskbar to *see* if they messaged me while playing is tedious to say the least (Why that would have seemed like a good idea, I can't say).
The game playmat is ugly and almost unuseable. From the stack, to that phase bar going horizontally across my screen, to my preference for having my lands displayed above my creatures, to the sizing of the cards themselves. All different, and none for the better.
The game runs remarkably slow. This is a virtual representation of a physical card game. I haven't bought a paper pack in many years, but are there laser beams coming out of the cards, or are they WiFi compliant now? Sarcasm, but that adequately sums up what you are trying to do with this Beta bunk. Keeping this game as *close* to the physical play experience as possible should be your goal. Adding more useless and unneeded bells and whistles that bog the game down detracts heavily from my enjoyment of it.
I never thought I would be saying this, but after all these years of good times, I am going to be throwing in the towel. In a month and a half when the Beta becomes permanently active, I will be selling the 17,000 cards I have accumulated and sadly wave goodbye to this game. There is no other game I have played in my lifetime as long as this. I guess the programmers at WotC are saying maybe it's been too long.
If they turn from this disasterous course they are on, I will happily change my mind, but odds are they won't. They will attempt to force a game client on its user base the majority don't want, didn't ask for, and assume because people have invested so much time, money, and effort into the game that we will just suck it up and continue. I'm sorry to say that assumption Wizo's is flat out wrong.
Best of luck to any of you who decide to persevere in the face of such crushing adversity. You are more understanding than I.
Created a group on Facebook calling for a boycott. Please feel free to join.
For some reason, the discussion link on The Journey Into Nyx Update Bulletin points here, rather than wherever is appropriate.
It is quite baffling to see how slow and bug-full this client has been evolving.
The new Beta has been around for 2 years but it is not ready yet.
While some of the crashing issues have been addressed, most of the original problems and core design issues are still there.
These are the areas that IMO you must fix before making the shift:
- The new client is sluggish, slow and uses 1 GB of RAM when running - even on a new i5 8GB of RAM laptop - the older PCs that can easily run the current client will have a hard time with the Beta; I am also concerned with the trading bots - I will for sure need a new PC to run mine and that sucks.
- The purchase scenario is broken - I believe this is the main scenario for the app right after playing a game and I am astonished that it is still in this state. I just want to import a deck from an article, then go shop for the missing cards with people/bots that sell them - should not be too hard but it actually is a mess:
- There is only one Wish List, so I cannot build multiple decks at the same time! The old client has as many wishlist as you want.
- Adding cards to the wishlist does not work - the command "Add needed cards to Wish List" does nothing.
- I cannot drag and drop the cards from my incomplete deck to the wishlist! (Do I need to write the missing cards on paper?)
- Any time I touch my deck you save it immediately, if by mistake I double click a card and remove it - it's gone forever!
- I cannot compare the number of cards of the seller with the ones I have! Do I need one or two Advent of the Wurm?
- The preview card window does not work - it disappears at random, it hides at random - I wish it was back in the play area as the old client, I need to zoom in on all the card to know what they do and it sucks - especially because I cannot select the card right beneath the one I am zooming in - that is important in sealed and draft deckbuilding
- The zoom functionality disappeared from my deck selection during a prerelease event, so sideboarding was a nightmare
- The sounds are the worst, who thinks that the sound of the zooming on a card is not annoying as hell raise his hand please - (and you cannot turn them off!)
- The cads on the playarea are TOO SMALL - so we have to zoom them every time (and there goes the annoying sound) - Yes the verticality is a challenge - but most games are played with no more than 10 cards on the field - make the card larger at the beginning, put lands on one side, remove the red zone, do something!
The general UI of the play area is meh.. I would do a complete redesign it taking ispiration from Duels and Heartsone...