10/18/2013 LD: "Developing for Eternal Formats"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Latest Developments, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.

I take issue with the phrase "borderline oppressive" regarding a Standard placement.  It would be really good, sure, and see a ton of play.  And maybe tilt the environment more toward White than they want.  But one-shot temporary removal is not "oppressive.". (Unless this is another sign that Removal is now viewed in the same light as Counterspells and Land Destruction, but I don't want to read that much into two words.)

 

That minor quibble aside, I rather like what they're doing with these products and support Sam's take on it.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

In legacy, X is going to equal 0, because you are killing their momentum.  This is a good thing to do, and very powerful in 1 color for 2CC, it's the same CC as azorius charm, which has a similar effect, but requires the creature to defend or attack.

 

A targetted 2CC momentum shift for White Weenie is very good.  Borderline Oppresive it will not be there, not in legacy.  On the other hand this would be excessively good, something white usually needs to go into another color to get, in standard.  Maybe he's exagerating, but he is trying to sell the card :p

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its a miracle!!!

 

to me it seem a pretty good card for counterbalance top decks, as they can both use it "offensively" to remove the opponent permanents from teh board, or "defensively" to hit counterbalance (bounce vendilion to hit 3 and play it again doesnt seem bad) or even to protect some key cards as counterbalance or jace.

 

indeed a very interesting card

This seems pretty good in response to a cracked fetchland for example.

Just like to point out that Force of Will is as fair as the format it inhabits, provided it's the best countermagic available.

 

STD is sufficiently balanced that 2-for-1-ing yourself (and paying 1 life) is seldom a good play. For the sake of completeness, paying to counter a spell is almost never the play to make... but I suppose presenting the option will please the miserable dastard who keeps pushing for Cancel reprints.

 

It is likely that Force of Will could be dropped into most Standard formats since Ravnica without breaking anything. If care were taken, it could certainly be reprinted without dominating the metagame.

 

Certainly it would have a smaller impact than Mental Misstep, a card that Wizards R&D signed off on.

 

This is, of course, in reply to:

 

Sam Stoddard wrote:

Getting a counterspell into these formats, for instance, is pretty much impossible. Once every few years we can find a card like Spell Pierce that is better than many other cards in most situations; going up against Force of Will, Counterspell, Daze, and even Stifle is no easy task.

Amarsir wrote:

I take issue with the phrase "borderline oppressive" regarding a Standard placement.  It would be really good, sure, and see a ton of play.  And maybe tilt the environment more toward White than they want.  But one-shot temporary removal is not "oppressive.". (Unless this is another sign that Removal is now viewed in the same light as Counterspells and Land Destruction, but I don't want to read that much into two words.)

 

That minor quibble aside, I rather like what they're doing with these products and support Sam's take on it.

This sounds like you haven't played against Azorius Charm enough. Being denied your draw for the turn hurts a lot, especially when it's an early creature that has largely outlived its usefulness.

maestrogrande wrote:

STD is sufficiently balanced that 2-for-1-ing yourself (and paying 1 life) is seldom a good play. For the sake of completeness, paying to counter a spell is almost never the play to make... but I suppose presenting the option will please the miserable dastard who keeps pushing for Cancel reprints.

 

It is likely that Force of Will could be dropped into most Standard formats since Ravnica without breaking anything. If care were taken, it could certainly be reprinted without dominating the metagame.

 

Certainly it would have a smaller impact than Mental Misstep, a card that Wizards R&D signed off on.

 

 

I think you're undervaluing the ability, as a control deck, to tap out during your turn and still be able to counter something, AND the ability to counter anything your opponent plays on turns 1-3 even while on the draw. 2-for-1'ing yourself is a cost, but the reward (IMHO) is big enough to outweigh it most of times - specially if, as a control deck, 2-for-1 yourself early assures you'll be able to reach mid-to-late game and recoup that card advantage loss with more expensive and powerful spells.

 

Also, Legacy might be a more balanced format today, but there were times when everybody, even mono-R Goblin decks, played 4 FoW maindeck, even if only to counter other people's FoW.

maestrogrande wrote:
2-for-1-ing yourself (and paying 1 life) is seldom a good play.

I've seen this argument made before, but it never quite made sense to me - the value of Force of Will is not that you can use it on every spell, but that you can use it on any spell. Yes, it's not going to be in your best interest to Will away everything your opponent casts, but when the time arises that it is worth it, Force of Will is always available - tapped out, caught off-guard, no matter what. In every game there will be at least one play that is worth two cards and 1 life; the beauty of Force of Will is that whenever that play happens, it is always there to stop it. It's not that you want every play to 2-for-1 you; it's that if that's the best your opponent can ever do, you're in a fantastic position.

I think they could print a free-spell Negate that would be OK for Standard.  The best way to fight counter-heavy decks was to get a threat out early so they're staring at a hand full of cards that can't deal with it.  And FoW broke that balance.  Since they favor creatures over spells now, creating that hole is more important than ever.  But a free spell that only stops other evil spells?  Useful but not broken.  (Mainly used in U/x aggro decks as protection against pure control stuff like DoJ, Revelation, or Cruel Ultimatum.). 

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

Thank you so much for developing cards for Vintage!! True-Name Nemesis looks like it will be very interesting indeed.

Amarsir wrote:

I think they could print a free-spell Negate that would be OK for Standard.  The best way to fight counter-heavy decks was to get a threat out early so they're staring at a hand full of cards that can't deal with it.  And FoW broke that balance.  Since they favor creatures over spells now, creating that hole is more important than ever.  But a free spell that only stops other evil spells?  Useful but not broken.  (Mainly used in U/x aggro decks as protection against pure control stuff like DoJ, Revelation, or Cruel Ultimatum.). 

I'm not sure where I heard this, but I seem to remember Misdirection was seriously considered for M13. That seems to be about what you're looking for.

I think we have a great opportunity to keep the most popular eternal format on its toes, and I think that has a lot of benefits for its players.

If Legacy is so popular (which it is), then why does it see so little tournament support from Wizards?

How many packs do you think the average Legacy player buys?

 

If WotC could rewind time and un-invent all non-draft formats, they would do so in a heartbeat.

evouga wrote:

How many packs do you think the average Legacy player buys?

 

If WotC could rewind time and un-invent all non-draft formats, they would do so in a heartbeat.

Even sealed?

"I’m going out on a limb and say that undying is better than persist." --- Mark Rosewater

While I'm not that familiar with Legacy or vintage, and know they're typically much faster formats (generally speaking), this on an Isochron Scepter seems like a pretty solid lock in a good number of situations.

I feel the same about fireshrieker

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Elton John - Sad songs say so much - Español/Inglés

You develop for Eternal formats by not printing horrid, uninteractive abominations like True-Name Nemesis. Tarmogoyf already did a number on the creature variety of the format when it was introduced, it's taken years of creature power creep to recover. And now this? Seriously? The best fair anti-combo decks in the format can't even deal with it because they have a red removal base, and this trainwreck is immune to anything red. Or just about anything for that matter. There's a real risk of turning the format into play Nemesis or play combo, much moreso than it is now. As a dedicated fast combo pilot, that sounds shitty.

 

If they want to do good for Legacy, ban the bastard on the first announcement, and take either Show and Derp or Leyline of "Braindead three-card combos and coinflippy mulligan decisions are fun, really" with it. Many would thank you.

 

Trying to help "I'm original" people build better decks is self-sabotage: Good advice will inevitably be ignored because someone did it before. The gist of Magic is going to MWS/MTGO, playing Island, Ponder and watching the opponent ragequit.
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