9/23/13 Making Magic: Theroses Are Red (and White, Blue, Black, and Green), Part 1

31 posts / 0 new
Last post

This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.

So Journey to Nowhere, with the additional requirement that you must also control a mountain, was so "format warping" that it had to go to rare.  Wow.  That is really not a selling point.  Even if I could somehow buy tha removal-less Limited is a good thing, it basically admits the cards can't hold up in Constructed.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

The good guys in the story (i.e., the Greeks) are able to defeat the Trojans by gifting them a giant wooden horse.

In before everyone else jumps on this: an interesting thing the Iliad does is that it's explicitly not that the Greeks are the good guys, and the Trojans are the bad guys. After all, isn't it a more impressive victory if you defeat a powerful, honorable opponent? There are "good guys" and "bad guys" on both sides.

One of the big lessons of Kamigawa block was this: there's a big difference with being accurate to a source material and being resonant. Put another way, the reason most players enjoy top-down design is because they get to recognize things they know. Now yes, they like a little education, but if the core of the set doesn't meet their expectations, the top-down tends to fall flat.

'sup, it's one of the Defenders of Kamigawa brigade. There's some truth to this, but I don't think it's nearly that bad. A giant war between Spirits & everyone else isn't actually Shinto mythology, but is clearly Magic's spin so that Our Heroes have something to do. Even if the block hadn't been flavored with Japanese mythology, that rough idea sounds like something that could easily be done in an entirely "Magic" created world with no strong ties to any mythology. Sure, some of the block ideas fell flat, but the problem wasn't their Japanese myth roots, it was just that they weren't sold well. Okay, so we have snake people, whatever. But interesting snake people might have had a chance. Basically Japanese myth at best gives you names like "Orochi" and "Nezumi" but then what you do with them afterward is up to the Magic creative team. What I'm getting at is that if Kamigawa had deviated further from Japanese myth and used something else instead - Elves? - it's not clear that would have gotten people excited more. (Monk elves?)

Now, the one thing I'll agree with is that it was utterly bizarre how little used Ninjas were, and how their power level wasn't "pushed" a tad more, and how they were abandoned in Saviors of Kamigawa. The two obvious flavor wins that random Americans know about that are Japanese are samurai & ninja, so dig into that more. Support ninjas as well as Samurai - have random weirdo honorable White ninjas, have ninjas without ninjutsu, have 4 different legendary ninja who are competing for the title of Ninja Lord, whatever - and I suspect that'd have gotten more flavor resonance from casuals.

But hey, both Akroan Horse & Hundred-Handed One are pretty neat, and people who are totally unfamiliar with Greek mythology can just see Hundred-Handed One as a random cool beastie.  So good job.

A few things:

Show
1. Note the use of the capital God and lowercase titan. Idiocy.

2. The Hippocamp is yet another card that has to be "dealt with" when paired with Kiki-Jiki. It's getting annoying that we have to deal with these bloody infinite combo cards you guys are too blind not to make. To sever Kiki-Jiki from his infinite combos, you need to peel out a near half-dozen creatures all designed to untap him. Maybe, just maybe, you guys can restrict these cards in ways that stop that? "Target blue creature other than [THIS]"? Just a suggestion.

3. Prometheus made humans at the behest of the Gods. This was largely for a reason that I'm not sure half the people who understand the basic creation stories the Greek told know, but it had a LOT to do with Zeus growing dissatisfied at the previous creation of humans, who were about 10 feet tall and made of gold. Thinking it too perfect and dull, Zeus wipes the world with a raging flood (sound familiar?) and tasked the two Titans Prometheus and Epimetheus to devise a new race, one subservient and pliable, smaller, and weaker. See, the original race (Silver, followed by Gold) were just .. .flawless, and would not be so awed by the Gods. So the Olympians wanted some people who would cower. Prometheus grew attached to his creations, and decided to give them creatively, but also the ability to defy the Gods. Free will. Zues hated this rebellion, so punished Prometheus by rendering Man to a hobbled state, subjecting them to lack of shelter, to wander in darkness, and to never have succor. Prometheus enacted his final rebellion by taking a brand of flame from the Gods (he didn't "steal" it) and taught Man to make fire, thus providing themselves shelter, warmth, cooking, and a light to see through the darkness. He gave them insight. So big Pro was chained to a rock while Zeus enacted his final revenge: he had Epimetheus make a Woman, and gave to her a box which contained all evils in the world, and sent her among Man. She opens the box, releases evils, but seals Hope away from the world. The ultimate revenge.

One of these evils, in case Mark Rosewater knows nothing, is mortality. Surety about death. Amongst all the creations of the Gods, only Man would be mortal. Epimetheus' animals and such would also be subject to this torment, whilst Prometheus watches in agony from the top of a mountain.

4. In keeping with my rant that Mark Rosewater knows nothing about the Greek creation stories, I should also point out that no mortal gains immortality. Only the demigods did, those descended from at least one immortal parent. The "immortality" they offer, however, is one of alteration. Arachne was made immortal as a spider; Pollux was made immortal, but only at the cost of Castor's true immortality, and both were simply made stars; Herakles was made immortal by the same token, placed within the heavens as "sheltering." It goes on. All of it requires transformation. NO ONE RISES FROM THE DEAD. The one time Hades let someone take a person out, they bungled it. So a card that resurrects a creature isn't a conference of immortality. You're dealing with a "Returned" or whatever abomination you want to call them. Making something indestructible, now that's a way to make THAT creature "immortal." It never dies. By definition, a creature going to the graveyard from the battlefield "dies." That word is even in the bloody card's text! /shakes head

5. The Gorgonai were three sisters, of whom the most beautiful was Medusa. Her beauty so made Aphrodite jealeous (also due to Medusa's braggart nature) that she converted Medusa's hair to serpents and made her gaze turn those who met it to stone. They weren't a race, they weren't a cabal, and they weren't serpent-bodied. This confuses gorgons with the lamia, which were human-headed serpents who desired male flesh. I understand Magic needs to get its beastiary from D&D for the most part, but can't you do the research? You claim so egoistically that you know Greek mythology, but really -- you know nothing, Mark Rosewater (sorry, SOIAF ref there).

"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)

Qilong wrote:
2. The Hippocamp is yet another card that has to be "dealt with" when paired with Kiki-Jiki. It's getting annoying that we have to deal with these bloody infinite combo cards you guys are too blind not to make. To sever Kiki-Jiki from his infinite combos, you need to peel out a near half-dozen creatures all designed to untap him. Maybe, just maybe, you guys can restrict these cards in ways that stop that? "Target blue creature other than [THIS]"? Just a suggestion.

Why not deal with Kiki-Jiki himself? Why would you deal with his worthless-on-their-own enablers? I really don't understand the problem here. This one is worse than the others so it's not getting played above them so how does this one have any impact at all? 

And even if they would print a more powerful one than Restoration Angel or Deceiver Exarch, older formats always have banlists. Old interactions should not cripple Wizards to make the best game today.

The card is format warping BECAUSE it requires a mountain. A one mana land enchantment which acts as universal removal is a pretty damned good reason to play W/R, and given the quality of red cards in this block it's a safe bet to say that if this were uncommon the incentive to splash red just to get this and other red removal spells would probably be pretty strong. Maybe not overwhelming in all cases, but probably enough to skew the numbers. You seem to be underestimating this card as well: dropping the cost from two to one mana is a pretty clutch deal, even if you do have to play red (which is not exactly a high price in this block), and I'd be interested in hearing why you don't think so.

And where are you getting the idea that making a one drop exile removal spell somehow means Limited will be "removal-less"? White has plenty of removal spells, and in fact may be slightly better than even black in terms of lower cost removal casts (as opposed to say the gorgons).

Admittedly, the cards are going to have a hard time in standard because of enchantment creatures being doubly susceptible to conditional removal, but then limited ALSO has a lot of enchantment removal floating around at the common/uncommon level, and those decks seem to fare just fine in the face of Destructive Revelry or Ray of Dissolution...or are you saying Chained to The Rocks isn't constructed playable? In the latter case, you're just insane.

The big problem with Breaching Hippocamp? It looks like it has flying. It even starts with a keyword ability starting with "fl". So many people thought it had flying at the prerelease.

I really don't get the cross-block synergy argument that "gold cards have synergies with Return to Ravnica". A monowhite token-maker would have far more synergy with Selesnya, or RTR block in general, than Chronicler of Heroes. (Admittedly Chronicler of Heroes loves Golgari, Rakdos and Simic, but, um, he's green-white.) It's not like RTR block has the Shorecrasher Mimics or the Noxious Hatchlings that Shadowmoor-Eventide had. I just don't see why Theros has so many gold cards.

Ephara's Warden is a clever Rise of the Eldrazi-style card to encourage battlecruiser play. I really don't see why she had to be so very expensive though.

Hundred-Handed One is the printed card to elicit the most laughs out loud I've seen for years. Don't know whether that's what you were going for, but it definitely achieved something there

My thoughts on Theros in general, having played with it at the prerelease:

1) It is a heck of a lot of fun. It plays very well.

2) Bestow looks overcosted, but the costing is well deserved. A bestow aura hitting the table means you're pretty much guaranteed to get a 2-for-1 in your *favour*, unless the opponent has enchantment destruction. It's particularly groanworthy if the ability being bestowed is relevant in the current game (eg deathtouch on a blocker, Heliod's Emissary on an attacker). 

3) The scry lands are very good. I had a blue-white deck, and I was playing Temple of Deceit in place of an Island and was happy about it. About halfway through the prerelease I swapped in Temple of Abandon as well, despite my only other red mana symbol being on a Crackling Triton

4) Monstrosity is very good as a late-game mana sink. It does leave even the humble commons with monstrosity as an ominous ticking time bomb. I heard of an Abhorrent Overlord being used along with his 2 tokens to just trade with some random monstrous uncommon.

5) The prerelease cards vary vastly in their power levels. Abhorrent Overlord is crazygood; the white and blue ones are merely excellent; Anthousa will usually do nothing except be a Blanchwood Treefolk. But Ember Swallower? UGH. Okay, it's an undercosted Earth Elemental, fine. It's got a late-game mana sink ability, fine. But that monstrous trigger seems designed to make games end in the most cripplingly unenjoyable ways possible. One player happens to be mana-screwed? Say goodbye to any chance of drawing out of that one.

I'm with you on everything except Kiki-Jiki. It's a little unreasonable to ask them to completely remove untap  from the game forever just because they screwed up once. And it's not like it isn't a fairly unreasonable ability to beyond the tap loops (perfect copy tokens are the broken part: note what happens to a cloned Scion of Vitu-Ghazi, and those clones aren't sacrificed in the case of something like a fog).

But yeah, I'm pretty sure Rosewater's idea of Greek mythology is based almost entirely on the Disney movie Hercules, evidence:

--The obsession with "Heroes" fighting "Monsters" and the ideal of "heroism." This is not a trope that exists in Greek mythology in any greater abundance than in any other mythos, and Greek mythology is not the source of the modern archetype of the "hero." This is however, the main plot of the Disney movie. I'm pretty sure I've heard Rosewater mention "the epic hero" as if it corresponded to our idea of a hero who does like, EPIC STUFF and not a technical term designating the protagonist of a specific literary format.

--The Disney movie features a family-friendly, happy ending version of the Eurydice story where both people make it out alive.

--His allusion to monstrosity describing the arc of heroic stories involving a "level up" moment in a monster. This is not a feature of Greek monster myths (which tend to be of the style "Theseus saw the Minotaur, it was gross looking, and he stabbed it in the neck until it was dead") but the use of such a volta is used multiple times in the Disney movie

To be fair about the rest, though, gorgon CAN be used as a general term: the association with the specific trio of which Medusa was a member came later. But these earlier creatures weren't necessarily snake like at all. But again, throwing them a bone, Gorgons are already an established creature type, so they've been kind of grandfathered in as sexy snake ladies.

And Prometheus is described in several sources as having stolen the fire (as part of the myth of the origin of the burnt offering), and the "hope" that was sealed in Pandora's box was not good hope, but rather Prometheus' fault of "foresight" (that is, only being preoccupied with the future and what may be, both of which were negative attributes by this point in this story). Not that this has anything to do with the set, I'm just picking nits.

One of the things that I really liked about Kamigawa was actually how much of it was new to me. It made me want to go learn things.

I don't doubt that it wasn't popular, though. Some people are probably not as interested in that as I was.

That said, I do think it could be redone and be really cool. I think Theros did a very good job of balancing being really flavorful with being resonant, and while I can definitely see where things don't match up exactly to Greek mythology, I don't really mind. I think there's probably a way to do Shinto World that feels a little less foreign to a lot of the audience.

I'm not sure what that would be, though. Part of me thinks it might have worked better to simply drop the Kami War, and have kami be spirit creatures that sometimes help and sometimes harm. Part of me thinks losing the Kami War would be losing the conflict that brought everything to life. And hey, the major theme of Scars of Mirrodin block was conflict between races we understood and a race we didn't know too much about that had a very elaborate culture of its own. And that worked very well.

But it may well be that Scars block was able to go that deep because we'd already been to Mirrodin -- so maybe Shinto World is too complicated.

I don't know, though. It seems to me that if Wizards can do Greek this well, they should be able to do something non-Western well, too. It may be harder because they're Westerners, but -- the game has worldwide appeal. I'd hate for Western mythologies and Western tropes (I'm thinking here of Innistrad, The Horror Block) to be the only things they feel safe doing (as much as I like the flavor of both things I just mentioned.)

I'd love to see another block based on a mythology I know very little about that encourages me to learn new things. Or even a "fixed" Kamigawa, whether a revisit to the plane or a new take on Japanese mythology/culture/religious tradition/etc.

I think MaRo hits the mark (pun intended) in recognizing he screwed up with Kamigawa block and the reason why.  I also agree with earlier posters that Ninja's and Samurai would have resonated a lot more with the general audience and should have been pushed more.  For me, I actually liked a lot of Kamigawa block though, even if I recognize it wasn't popular.  Ninjas are some of my favorite creatures ever printed and to me ninjitsu was an absolute success both mechanically and in terms of flavor.  I thought Ghost Dad was cool and I thought spirits were flavorful as well, so for me the set actually hit the mark in constructed.  I'll admit I began playing in Kamigawa so I only had an opportunity to play with it in constructed, I never drafted it, which I heard was a nightmare.  For me the absolute worst set I ever drafted was Shadowmoor/Eventide and it's not even close...all of the cards were so yawn that it was basically undraftable and there were no clear archetypes or strategy to it.

As far as Theros goes, it seems like a whole lot of people are taking umbrage to it's flavor.  They are questioning how much MaRo knows about Greek Mythology.  But does it really matter?  The set is fun to draft and it has many cards will make it into standard.  It's a fun set.  It's what Kamigawa should have been.  AND it has a ton of flavor, the flavor just may not be true to real Greek mythology, but to me that doesn't matter so long as the set is fun to play with and balanced, which it is.

 

I thought planeswalkers didn't die, they just lost interest. Are you telling me that if I get enough loyalty on Liliana to ultimate her, she brings all the creatures back from the dead and then blows her brains out because she didn't like me a little bit more?

I am a little confused as to the use of a rarity symbol as a flavor marker. Planeswalkers 'die' as often as they are played and 'killed', and it has nothing to do with a rarity symbol. Similarly, the 'seasoning' cards are just as familiar as everything else if you read the visual spoiler that is available before packs go on sale as the introduction to a set. Something appearing less often in packs doesn't make it appear less often on the spoiler or in constructed games of Magic.

Finally, the trick to top-down cards is that they still have to be the last word-cards. If there was no chained to rocks story and someone came up with the idea of chaining a creature to a rock or tree, you'd have quickly dismissed it. Why does my white card want me to have a mountain (or forest for the hypothetical) in order to use it? Why do I want to encourage my opponent to blow up my lands to get their creature back? Curse of swine is as close to the line as you should get. It functions as a blue Magic card even if it is a head scrather as to why it is making such random tokens if you don't know the story.

12three45 wrote:
.

Finally, the trick to top-down cards is that they still have to be the last word-cards. If there was no chained to rocks story and someone came up with the idea of chaining a creature to a rock or tree, you'd have quickly dismissed it. Why does my white card want me to have a mountain (or forest for the hypothetical) in order to use it? Why do I want to encourage my opponent to blow up my lands to get their creature back? Curse of swine is as close to the line as you should get. It functions as a blue Magic card even if it is a head scrather as to why it is making such random tokens if you don't know the story.

 

Interesting because chained to the rocks is one of my favorite cards in the set in terms of flavor.  It's also quite a good card mechanically, in Boros with Sacred Foundry.  Magic has a long history of white removal at 1cc with wierd and sometimes marginal drawbacks (Path, Swords to Plowshares, etc.)  I see this as just another of its ilk and it will be good.

ZursApprentice wrote:
Interesting because chained to the rocks is one of my favorite cards in the set in terms of flavor.  It's also quite a good card mechanically, in Boros with Sacred Foundry.  Magic has a long history of white removal at 1cc with wierd and sometimes marginal drawbacks (Path, Swords to Plowshares, etc.)  I see this as just another of its ilk and it will be good.
I think people who are keen to notice the 1cc are too willing to overlook the Sorcery speed and two-color requirements.  It's niche removal in Constructed for Boros aggro, and certainly playable in Limited as most removal is.  But it's not up to the level of even Condemn let alone Swords and Path.

This is a format that has changed Grasp of Darkness into Lash of the Whip.  It's not a good removal set.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

@Qilong

The Medusa story changed a whole bunch throughtout the years and the one you described is only a singular version of it. Sometimes it is Athena who monstrifies Medusa for getting raped by Poseidon in her temple (Gods aren't really known for their rationality), sometimes Medusa is just ugly in the first place, sometimes she doesn't have sisters. The mythology developed gorgons from ritual masks made by some of the earliest Greeks. Although you're correct on the serpentine body being derivative of pop culture, their appearances were so varied in the historical depictions (from near what an M:tG angel looks like to a boar-like human) that I'd say it hardly matters. What you're doing would actually be similar to saying that Frank Miller's Batman is the only Batman and all Batmans that don't look like Frank Miller's Batman or follow Frank Miller's Batman mythos are wrong.

Everything else is pretty much exactly as it should be, though.

If you are having a hard time with Kiki-Jiki, may I suggest becoming familiar with how the combo works on the stack and then using instant speed kill spells? The exact reason why creatures can get powercreeped as much as they are is that the "Dies to Doomblade" crowd has a really good point.

 

@12three45

I think you're right that the idea behind this being rare has nothing to do with flavor. I'd blatantly accuse MaRo of taking credit where it isn't due (or at least taking more than he deserves) and say that the spell is rare because of the combo of limited and money. Limited shouldn't have unconditional removal at 3 mana at common, making this uncommon. Money pushes it to rare.

since he brought up the akroan horse, I'll say it again.

Here is what the card should have been,
akroan horse 4

artifact creature - horse

defender

when akroan horse enters the battlefield target opponent gains control of it.

at the end of your turn sacrifice akroan horse.

if you do, its owner puts four 1/1 soldier tokens into play and creatures you control cannot block until the your next upkeep.

0/4

The horse was not a magical endless supply of soldiers. It was a one trick pony, that was used to infiltrate enemy lines. IT had a fixed (small) amount of soldiers inside that opened the gates for the soldiers outside.

Did anyone notice that the artifact creatures with Defender in Theros don't have the sub-type "wall" like other defenders such as Mneumonic Wall? Is there a rule that you assume all creatures with Defender are walls? Or would these creatures not interact with cards like Prowler's Helm? I don't know if this is new or if I just never noticed it before...

Guest182532702 wrote:
Did anyone notice that the artifact creatures with Defender in Theros don't have the sub-type "wall" like other defenders such as Mneumonic Wall? Is there a rule that you assume all creatures with Defender are walls? Or would these creatures not interact with cards like Prowler's Helm? I don't know if this is new or if I just never noticed it before...

Walls were the first "defenders" way back when. Walls had "rules baggage" that other creatures didn't (if you saw a wall, you were expected to know from reading the rules that walls are special and can't attack, just like you were supposed to know the "legend rule" for any creature with type Legend). Eventually they rearranged rules so that "wall" was just another type (the rules baggage was moved to the defender keyword) and the "legends" creature type ceased to exist (they are all now creatures with the "Legendary" supertype instead).

Prowler's Helm is a nod to Athena's helm from "Clash of the Titans", one fo the three gifts Zeus sent to Perseus. It turns you invisible. Invisibility in Magic in Alpha through Eigth edition meant "Can't be blocked except by Walls" (because a wall doesn't have to see you to block you). So there you go, two references in one: Alpha Invisibility and "Clash of the Titans".


Regarding Breaching Hippocamp: I'm honestly a little torn between the falvor and mechanics of the type line. On the one hand, no hippocamp type (boo!). On the other hand it plays well with horse and fish tribes (yay!). And on the third hand, caring about either means I care about hippocamp type and/or "horse" and "fish" tribal (huh?). (I did say I was only a LITTLE torn.)

Something thing I found interesting: this may be the first time where a "mythical hybrid" gets the split types rather than it's own type. All bird-horses end up as a pegasus. All fish-people end up as merfolk. All horned herbivore-headed humanoids end up as minotaurs, and all quadruped-bottomed humanoids end up as centaurs. The only new addition in a while, the hippofriff, got to add his own type. But hippocamp here just gets the weird "fish horse" combo.

There are other creaures with the stapled-together animal types, but almost all are considered magical abberations, not "narutal" mythical creatures. For example, the Simic mutants and the planar chaos Razorfin Hunter. Is this the first time a "natural" creature is recognized by a stapled-together typeline?

I think this set does a good job of creating tribal mechanics with out explicitely doing so

 

NO WAR
Asking ITC Defense Corp. ‏@itc_defense DoD SBIR/STTR ‏@dodsbir
why does why does the face of defense #DOD calls its targets terrorist invoking bias?
airstrike article / twitter cell

 

 

 

mulen wrote:
Here is what the card should have been,

akroan horse 4

artifact creature - horse

defender

when akroan horse enters the battlefield target opponent gains control of it.

at the end of your turn sacrifice akroan horse.

if you do, its owner puts four 1/1 soldier tokens into play and creatures you control cannot block until the your next upkeep.

0/4

I like that better too.

longwinded wrote:
Something thing I found interesting: this may be the first time where a "mythical hybrid" gets the split types rather than it's own type. All bird-horses end up as a pegasus. All fish-people end up as merfolk. All horned herbivore-headed humanoids end up as minotaurs, and all quadruped-bottomed humanoids end up as centaurs. The only new addition in a while, the hippofriff, got to add his own type. But hippocamp here just gets the weird "fish horse" combo.

There are other creaures with the stapled-together animal types, but almost all are considered magical abberations, not "narutal" mythical creatures. For example, the Simic mutants and the planar chaos Razorfin Hunter. Is this the first time a "natural" creature is recognized by a stapled-together typeline?

I don't know flavor enough to answer that, but I think you're right.  Shadowmoor certainly gave us Noggles and Hags and Scarecrows.  So they weren't shy about new types back then.

Is there a naturally-conceived "plant zombie"?  Because the way it comes up I don't know if it's a top-down design or if it's just Creative being ... well ... creative.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

@Amarsir. I like your comparison of Chained to Rocks to Journey to Nowhere. I get the flavor, but it's just a worse version of that and Path to Exile. I hate that the cost is mono white, bit it's strictly a Boros card... so frustrating. It definitely shouldn't be rare. I think Path to Exile would have been ok in this environment with so many 3+ color decks. It's a bigger penalty for cheap removal than in environments with less color splash.
@longwinded. You did not even begin to answer my question. I've been playing a while and understand how walls used to work. My question was, do the new rules state that all creatures with Defender are considered walls? Or do they have to have the wall subtype to be considered walls? This difference is important when it come to cards that interact with walls only.

Guest182532702 wrote:
@longwinded. You did not even begin to answer my question. I've been playing a while and understand how walls used to work. My question was, do the new rules state that all creatures with Defender are considered walls? Or do they have to have the wall subtype to be considered walls? This difference is important when it come to cards that interact with walls only.
No, not all creatures with Defender are walls.  Prowler's Helm will get you right past a Corpse Blockade.  

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

I like chained to the rocks for its inclusion of a locationn

adds the imagined landscape

NO WAR
Asking ITC Defense Corp. ‏@itc_defense DoD SBIR/STTR ‏@dodsbir
why does why does the face of defense #DOD calls its targets terrorist invoking bias?
airstrike article / twitter cell

 

 

 

Amarsir wrote:

 

ZursApprentice wrote:
Interesting because chained to the rocks is one of my favorite cards in the set in terms of flavor.  It's also quite a good card mechanically, in Boros with Sacred Foundry.  Magic has a long history of white removal at 1cc with wierd and sometimes marginal drawbacks (Path, Swords to Plowshares, etc.)  I see this as just another of its ilk and it will be good.

I think people who are keen to notice the 1cc are too willing to overlook the Sorcery speed and two-color requirements.  It's niche removal in Constructed for Boros aggro, and certainly playable in Limited as most removal is.  But it's not up to the level of even Condemn let alone Swords and Path.

This is a format that has changed Grasp of Darkness into Lash of the Whip.  It's not a good removal set.

Clearly this is worse than Condemn, which is worse than Path, which is worse than Swords to Plowshares.  But none of those are in Standard.  1cc removal is 1cc removal.  It depends on what you mean by niche, because this WILL be played...whether that's only in Boros, in UWR, in Naya, etc idk but it will be played.  Sacred Foundry makes it a real card.

ZursApprentice wrote:
Clearly this is worse than Condemn, which is worse than Path, which is worse than Swords to Plowshares.  But none of those are in Standard.  1cc removal is 1cc removal.  It depends on what you mean by niche, because this WILL be played...whether that's only in Boros, in UWR, in Naya, etc idk but it will be played.  Sacred Foundry makes it a real card.
Just to reiterate, I never said it wouldn't be played.  I said if a card that's worse than Condemn and narrower than Journey to Nowhere is so good in this environment as to be "format warping", that's a significant commentary on the environment itself.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

I would guess that the format warping nature is due to it being a RW (essentially) card.  Imagine if Pacifism cost UW in M14. That would cause a significant bias toward playing UW in limited.

Does it seem to anyone else like Hundred Handed One would only be able to block an additional 49 creatures? My reasoning is this: most creatures in Magic have two arms (or forelimbs) and can block one creature, setting the standard at 2 arms per block. 

Perhaps his hands become bigger when he becomes monstrous.

Rhdhighness wrote:

Does it seem to anyone else like Hundred Handed One would only be able to block an additional 49 creatures? My reasoning is this: most creatures in Magic have two arms (or forelimbs) and can block one creature, setting the standard at 2 arms per block. 

Hundred-Handed One being able to block only fifty creatures would be both more correct and less clear, flavorfully. It's nearly always better to opt for the obvious flavor over the "correct" or "consistent" flavor—after all, is the flavor really correct if fewer players understand it immediately?

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

Taudisban wrote:

If you are having a hard time with Kiki-Jiki, may I suggest becoming familiar with how the combo works on the stack and then using instant speed kill spells? The exact reason why creatures can get powercreeped as much as they are is that the "Dies to Doomblade" crowd has a really good point.

Kiki-Jiki enjoys a love-hate relationship amongst the EDH crowd. It can be teir 1, or incredibly frustrating as an open-ended game-finisher. Knowledge of the stack is pointless, as this delays the inevitable when it comes to games like this. When you drop a card, which can be the general, in such a manner that the player has backups, counters, or redirects available to solve the problem of keeping it down, you worry. The problem witj Kiki-Jiki is that despite the issues it derives, and the calls for banning because it is so frustrating to fight, or the fact that the only way to reasonably fight it is bringing a top-end mostly-premade deck to face it or the crap it brings, Meanery and the RC won't do anything about it. It doesn't "warp the format," it's just incredibly unfun. Once Kiki "goes online," games just end. There's no "fight" left. MTG decided to introduce intro-level product, an expensive collector-based product to supplement, and this brought a lot of new players into the fold, but NONE of them have the resources to fight a tuned Kiki-Jiki deck ... which , I may remaind you, doesn't need it as a general to function incredibly well. So many players are ill-suited, by money or by skill, to deal with the card. And any card that forms an instant drop and win, two-card-instant-win-combo with Kiki-Jiki deserves a second look.

Part of EDH is about "fun," and while fun is relative to the player, fun for a table requires the ability to come back from the brink, or fight an archenemy. "Fun" means something better when the whole table has it, not when one person sits there masturbating his deck. Think about it (or don't, depending on what you think I'm asking.)

"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
Sign In to post comments