9/2/2013 MM: "A Theros By Any Other Name, Part 1"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Amarsir wrote:

"Other creatures you control have vigilance." 
 
Does it seem odd to anyone else that he excludes himself?   Granting an ability that he doesn't himself have seems neither conceptually nor mechanically resonant. 
 
 
Also, did Mark basically say that he has a "strong" idea for a block that's "hard to pull off" and therefore was kickedout of the seven-year plan?   So maybe we'll get the rest of that story in 2018? 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Kafaldsbylur wrote:
 

Gods, I hate teachers who pull the kind of crap Mark mentioned in his blurb. If you put in 2 blanks, it should be if and only if you expect 2 answers. Otherwise you're going to have a lot of people who panic when they see the second blank because they can't figure out what they're supposed to put in, including, and often especially, the best students

 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Nathnor wrote:
 

Kafaldsbylur wrote:

Gods, I hate teachers who pull the kind of crap Mark mentioned in his blurb. If you put in 2 blanks, it should be if and only if you expect 2 answers. Otherwise you're going to have a lot of people who panic when they see the second blank because they can't figure out what they're supposed to put in, including, and often especially, the best students

Agreed. I would be like him and take my best guess at the second blank.

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

alextfish wrote:

 

 

I like that the solution to red and black dealing with enchantments is to make them creatures as well... and then the marquee cycle are all indestructible, making it much harder for red and black to do anything about them at all. (Most non-damage, non-destruction removal is exile, bounce or put into library, which are far more common in... that's right, the three colours that aren't red or black.)

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Fenix. wrote:
 

 rabian Nights did Persian mythology (straight-up, not a world inspired by it).

I don't know whether you're uninformed or just mixed the two up, but the set Arabian Nights has nothing to do with Persian mythology. Persians are NOT Arabs, Rosewater.

 

 

 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

TobyornotToby wrote:
 

 

Kafaldsbylur wrote:

 

Gods, I hate teachers who pull the kind of crap Mark mentioned in his blurb. If you put in 2 blanks, it should be if and only if you expect 2 answers. Otherwise you're going to have a lot of people who panic when they see the second blank because they can't figure out what they're supposed to put in, including, and often especially, the best students

 

 

Well, it requires both a mastery of the subject (you have to be confident there is only 1 answer) and you have to think meta. Although perhaps the latter is best saved for higher education.

 

Fenix. wrote:

 

 rabian Nights did Persian mythology (straight-up, not a world inspired by it).

I don't know whether you're uninformed or just mixed the two up, but the set Arabian Nights has nothing to do with Persian mythology. Persians are NOT Arabs, Rosewater.

 

After a quick wikipedia glance, it seems more complex than that:

"One Thousand and One Nights was collected over many centuries by various authors, translators, and scholars across West, Central, South Asia and North Africa. The tales themselves trace their roots back to ancient and medieval Arabic, Persian, Indian, Egyptian and Mesopotamian folklore and literature. In particular, many tales were originally folk stories from the Caliphate era, while others, especially the frame story, are most probably drawn from the Pahlavi Persian work Hazār Afsān (Persian: هزار افسان‎, lit. A Thousand Tales) which in turn relied partly on Indian elements.[2]"

 

 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Fenix. wrote:
 

Except that Arabian Nights is not just  drawing upon One Thousand One Nights, but more generic Arabic mythology as well. Which, again, have nothing to do with Persian mythology.

 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

TobyornotToby wrote:
 

Fenix. wrote:

 

Except that Arabian Nights is not just  drawing upon One Thousand One Nights, but more generic Arabic mythology as well. Which, again, have nothing to do with Persian mythology.

 

Ok then it's an awkward thing to say =p

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Kensan_Oni wrote:
 

Sounds to me that Mark could have saved himself a lot of trouble by just reading a little bit of Joseph Campbell's work.

 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Mata_Hari wrote:
 

Man, MaRo always brings up stuff he wanted to do but can't. I know he never elucidates in case he can find a way to pull it off, but still, it's a bit blerh.

 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

HavelockVetinari wrote:

Fenix. wrote:

 

Except that Arabian Nights is not just  drawing upon One Thousand One Nights, but more generic Arabic mythology as well. Which, again, have nothing to do with Persian mythology.

 

One minor nitpick: Hazār Afsān included the framing story of Scheherazade, so there is at least one card in Arabian Nights that comes from Persian mythology. (Albeit one that is banned in every format!)

 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

GreenBuster wrote:
 

alextfish wrote:

 

I like that the solution to red and black dealing with enchantments is to make them creatures as well... and then the marquee cycle are all indestructible, making it much harder for red and black to do anything about them at all. (Most non-damage, non-destruction removal is exile, bounce or put into library, which are far more common in... that's right, the three colours that aren't red or black.) 

 

Or you can have them sacrifice it (for black).  Red does get the short end of the stick though for dealing with those cards.

 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Qilong wrote:
 

Fenix. wrote:

 

Except that Arabian Nights is not just  drawing upon One Thousand One Nights, but more generic Arabic mythology as well. Which, again, have nothing to do with Persian mythology.

 

While the character of Scherezade is Farsi in nature, name and origin, the internal stories are borrowed mostly from the Arabian Peninsula. Many of the characters are borrowed from Arabian, Persian, and even further western locations, as many stories (such as Alladin) were derived along the Silk Road from China, as well as from India with which Persia had a strong rivalry. To claim that The Thousand and One Nights is essentially Persian as opposed to Arabian is to miss the point: Like the Grimm Tales, the stories are derived from a lot of different sources, some of them modified myths, others folktales, and still others generic stories or parables. None of it is exclusviely Persian or Arabian, and even to say that the final text and translation's origin is Farsi justifies claiming Persian origin is erroneous, and missing the point.

(Also, hilarious discussion on Mark's literary skills: As a former screenwriter [who plugs Roseanne constantly], editor [at the Duelist], and writer all around for the last 30-40 years, it should be expected that Rosewater knows how to write, and not just plug text with gimmicks for their own sake. Of course, recent design has shown that gimmicks are, in fact, Rosewater's intentions, and it frankly reflects on the waning inventiveness of his articles, writing, and design. There is no challenge for a writer who settles in and does what he's supposed to, and not strive for something more.)

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Fenix. wrote:
 

Qilong wrote:

 

Fenix. wrote:

 

Except that Arabian Nights is not just  drawing upon One Thousand One Nights, but more generic Arabic mythology as well. Which, again, have nothing to do with Persian mythology.

While the character of Scherezade is Farsi in nature, name and origin, the internal stories are borrowed mostly from the Arabian Peninsula. Many of the characters are borrowed from Arabian, Persian, and even further western locations, as many stories (such as Alladin) were derived along the Silk Road from China, as well as from India with which Persia had a strong rivalry. To claim that The Thousand and One Nights is essentially Persian as opposed to Arabian is to miss the point: Like the Grimm Tales, the stories are derived from a lot of different sources, some of them modified myths, others folktales, and still others generic stories or parables. None of it is exclusviely Persian or Arabian, and even to say that the final text and translation's origin is Farsi justifies claiming Persian origin is erroneous, and missing the point.

I never claimed One Thousand Nights to be pure Persian... in fact, I never said anything about Hezar Afsan's content at all.

 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Qilong wrote:
 

Fenix. wrote:

Qilong wrote:

 

Fenix. wrote:

 

Except that Arabian Nights is not just  drawing upon One Thousand One Nights, but more generic Arabic mythology as well. Which, again, have nothing to do with Persian mythology.

While the character of Scherezade is Farsi in nature, name and origin, the internal stories are borrowed mostly from the Arabian Peninsula. Many of the characters are borrowed from Arabian, Persian, and even further western locations, as many stories (such as Alladin) were derived along the Silk Road from China, as well as from India with which Persia had a strong rivalry. To claim that The Thousand and One Nights is essentially Persian as opposed to Arabian is to miss the point: Like the Grimm Tales, the stories are derived from a lot of different sources, some of them modified myths, others folktales, and still others generic stories or parables. None of it is exclusviely Persian or Arabian, and even to say that the final text and translation's origin is Farsi justifies claiming Persian origin is erroneous, and missing the point.

 

I never claimed One Thousand Nights to be pure Persian... in fact, I never said anything about Hezar Afsan's content at all.

And I never claimed you said it was pure Persian, did I? I was adding nuance to the entire argument, and disucssing this in relation to the topic itself, not merely what YOU said. Being as my post had a quote from you in it, I can see where this might be confusing, but as none of what I said tried to contradict anything you did, but merely by what it self may have argued something that contradicts a thing you might have intended or implied, it wasn't intentional that I discounted a particular statement of yours. I added clarity to confusion, and that is all. If you have a particular belief about this, then please consider that one might not intend outright denial first.

 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Stray_Dog wrote:
 

Now I'm curious to see what the other ten gods end up being. Some of them are obvious, but colours like UG, RU and WB will hopefully be a pleasant surprise. I'm particularly excited about RU because I'm hoping its a contrast to the mad-scientist Izzet

W/R would obviously be an Ares archetype.

W/G is definitely Karametra, the god of the hearth.

Based on what we've seen of Satyrs, I'm guessing R/G will be a Dyonisian/Pan archetype, which would be a nice change from the Gruul. 

WU is likely an Athena archetype. Athena was known as civic-minded, rational and protective, especially of her champions

I wonder if RU will be a god of storms and chaos? Might conflict with Thassa if he/she is about sudden, drastic change as opposed to gradual change.

UB: Hecate was a goddess of magic, witchcraft, night, the moon, ghosts and necromancy. Hypnos was a god of sleep.

GB: Adonis was a god of life, death and rebirth 

...but I'm hoping some of them aren't quite so obvious, especially since we just had the guilds.

 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Qilong wrote:
 

Stray_Dog wrote:

 

Now I'm curious to see what the other ten gods end up being. Some of them are obvious, but colours like UG, RU and WB will hopefully be a pleasant surprise. I'm particularly excited about RU because I'm hoping its a contrast to the mad-scientist Izzet

W/R would obviously be an Ares archetype.

W/G is definitely Karametra, the god of the hearth.

Based on what we've seen of Satyrs, I'm guessing R/G will be a Dyonisian/Pan archetype, which would be a nice change from the Gruul. 

WU is likely an Athena archetype. Athena was known as civic-minded, rational and protective, especially of her champions

I wonder if RU will be a god of storms and chaos? Might conflict with Thassa if he/she is about sudden, drastic change as opposed to gradual change.

UB: Hecate was a goddess of magic, witchcraft, night, the moon, ghosts and necromancy. Hypnos was a god of sleep.

GB: Adonis was a god of life, death and rebirth 

...but I'm hoping some of them aren't quite so obvious, especially since we just had the guilds.

 

Nitpick. Adonis wasn't a god, but a mortal man. You are thinking of Apollon, who was a god of muses, poetry, light when not in conflict with Helios (who was merely the puller of the sun across the sky), of inspiration, and of serpents and rebirth -- but not necessarily of death.

When it comes to death itself, there are several qualifications; the Greeks had a complicated afterlife, as everyone effectively went to the same place. There was Hades, who ruled the underworld and kept the peace of the scores of people kept there, from the fields of Elysios to "pit" of Tartaros. Hypnos and the Oneiroi were the lords whose domain was sleep, and his brother Thanatos was the one who (like Anubis) delivered the deceased to the realm of death. (You could bargain with him, but this was usually a matter of replacing one with another.) Charon was also not divine, and merely transported those across a barrier into the netherworld. And peace. Those who feared judgement either never crossed, or were brought across by force. Hades could opt for the direct approach if he so chose.

But more importantly, the decision of time of death was left to the Moirai, the Fates (maiden, mother, and crone), whose duties were to determine the time of birth, the duration of life, and make the final "cut" to when a person's time was over. No god was subject to them, but they were also not subject to gods, and as such were apart from time and death. Hades bows his head to the Fates. So did Zeus. Atropos's Roan equivalent was known as Morta -- Death.

But this is Magic. Greek mythology recieves a butchering the way Celtic lore did in Lorwyn, Japanese folklore and mythos in Kamigawa, and "Gothic" "horror" in Innistrad. Really, it's whatever they want and there's a passing nod to the actual mythos.

 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Jakusotsu wrote:
 

alextfish wrote:

 

I like that the solution to red and black dealing with enchantments is to make them creatures as well... and then the marquee cycle are all indestructible, making it much harder for red and black to do anything about them at all. (Most non-damage, non-destruction removal is exile, bounce or put into library, which are far more common in... that's right, the three colours that aren't red or black.)

 

While an indestructible 5/6 for four seems way over the top, I like the aspect that you can actually fight the Gods by eliminating their worshippers (i.e. devotion count). Red and Black should have the least problems with that, and all that's left of the God is a mostly irrelevant enchantment.

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

alextfish wrote:

Jakusotsu wrote:

alextfish wrote:

 

I like that the solution to red and black dealing with enchantments is to make them creatures as well... and then the marquee cycle are all indestructible, making it much harder for red and black to do anything about them at all. (Most non-damage, non-destruction removal is exile, bounce or put into library, which are far more common in... that's right, the three colours that aren't red or black.)

 

While an indestructible 5/6 for four seems way over the top, I like the aspect that you can actually fight the Gods by eliminating their worshippers (i.e. devotion count). Red and Black should have the least problems with that, and all that's left of the God is a mostly irrelevant enchantment.

 

Good point, that's true. It's like Worship: red and black can certainly answer that enchantment by removing its preconditions, and the same is true here.

 

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."

Amarsir wrote:

 

Unless of course the devotion comes from other enchantments...

"Words of power never disappear. They sleep, awaiting those with the will to rouse them."