8/16/2013 LD: "Days of Future Future, Part 2

21 posts / 0 new
Last post
This thread is for discussion of this week's Latest Developments, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Talking about the FFL is always a crowd favorite.  But Sam gets extra points for awesome detail.

I have trouble seeing Bogbrew witch as trouble at any casting cost.  But if it even played around tier 1, it's so linear that I think people would get sick of it fast.  So for that reason only it's OK to be weaker.

And yeah, you guys have been pushing the heck out of 1-drops lately.  Odd that it took Ranger of Eos to drive that home. 

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

They did not reprint Telling Time because "you could set up miracle far too easily with it".... because it matters what six weeks of superstandard looks like

And Bogbrew Witch was scary at 1BB because you could power it out t2 with an elf... when Arbor Elf is leaving and there's no reliable way to get 1BB on t2 using Elvish Mystic.

Definitely seems like this article is suffering because they can't talk about what sort of effects Theros will have, but worrying about anything that happens in superstandard seems foolish.
T1 Overgrown Tomb into T2 swamp does fairly well, although it is weird to mention. I can't imagine a whole lot of decks that cared for both the witch and ramping. Maybe she became an engine in some sort of Jund build?

Telling Time probaly moreso has the problem of instant speed than anything else. Looking at their decklist, it doesn't seem that bad. It seems way too reliant on getting a good split off a T2 Telling Time vs aggro. I would not feel at all good being on the draw against Gruul aggro or even some of the old BR zombies. I guess players would have constructed a better list (where are the azorius charms and Snappys?) but still.

I wonder if the FFL ever tests for things that might be completely degenerate in a casual setting? Things like Ghostly Prison that are kind of meh in a tournament setting, but in casual land force a playgroup to splash green for Naturalize in every deck.
I love these FFL articles. If only they could be weekly, too. (And in addition to other R&D columns!)

They're willing to give us Rancor for infect for 6 weeks because it's AIRQUOTES hillarious, but they're nervous about Telling Time with miracles? It must've been a really good deck.

Was that art for Imposing Sovereign supposed to go on Ranger of Eos? Or did I misread that?

A combo deck which tries to cast a billion elves and you didn't try to squeeze Beck into it? Soul of the Harvest costs 6 mana.

I could keep going. Everything is interesting!

When playing in the FFL, the adjustment of cards can lead to a certain amount of frustration when, unlike in the real world, your reward for breaking something or creating the best deck in the format isn't to win a tournament, but instead it is often to see some card in it tweaked. It's all part of the job, though, and you get used to focusing, not on your favorite individual decks and cards, but on an overall feeling of what Standard plays like, and trying to make sure there are plenty of fun and interesting things going on in that format.

I don't want to pick on any article like this. Especially one that I like. But you know how much it hurts to watch someone REB a Daze rather than just pay the 1? It hurts like an ice cream-headache doesn't it?


Awesome seeing all these decks that will never be. Looking forward to seeing more like these in the future future.

I have actually seen the 'ramp into Behemoth' decks in the tournament practice room on magic online. Not sure if they were running Soul of the Harvest though.
By the way, that deck can actually only really be competitive if UWR decks start dropping in popularity. If they wrath before you get your Soul of the Harvest there's no chance of winning anymore.
Very interesting article. It's always awesome to get these inside looks into the design & development process. Excellent amount of details too. I love the decklists with notes specifying how the cards used to look. Thumbs up once again, Sam!
I assume Ranger of Eos would've gotten new art if it were reprinted, but the Imposing Sovereign art really doesn't look like a ranger to me.  If anything, Imposing Sovereign makes me think "Lady who escaped from Kamigawa".
Awesome article, more please!

Although I'm always disheartened when I hear a fun fringe card used to cost more competitively... 
While I always love talk of hypotheticals and what-ifs, some are a little too hard to swallow - like those decks with 24 rare dual lands.

yeesh 
Proud member of C.A.R.D. - Campaign Against Rare Duals "...but the time has come when lands just need to be better. Creatures have gotten stronger, spells have always been insane, and lands just sat in this awkward place of necessity." Jacob Van Lunen on the refuge duals, 16 Sep 2009. "While it made thematic sense to separate enemy and allied color fixing in the past, we have come around to the definite conclusion that it is just plain incorrect from a game-play perspective. This is one of these situations where game play should just trump flavor." - Sam Stoddard on ending the separation of allied/enemy dual lands. 05 July 2013
Was that art for Imposing Sovereign supposed to go on Ranger of Eos? Or did I misread that?



I assume Ranger of Eos would've gotten new art if it were reprinted, but the Imposing Sovereign art really doesn't look like a ranger to me.  If anything, Imposing Sovereign makes me think "Lady who escaped from Kamigawa".



No. He said that when they took Ranger out, they were just in time to comission new art for replacements (which shouldn't be a lot). Imposing Sovereign was created as a result of filling that slot in a very tiny window.
A few quotes I'd like to respond to:

If our small group of playtesters can divine exactly what Standard will look a year in the future, then we just haven't made the environment complex enough to be interesting.



At what point is this excuse for "Sorry Standard sucks, guys" going to fade away?  How many more times do we have to hear it before you take responsibility for creating a horrible, degenerate, one-deck format that we have to bear with for months on end?  Can we fast-forward to the part where you, as a developer, do the job I'm paying you for, through my purchases of booster packs etc, and make sure that Standard is a balanced format now and for the rest of eternity?  Honestly, I'd rather play a format which is easily solved but has a Rock-Paper-Scissors metagame with fun and cool interactions that a bland, one-deck format like Standard circa 2007 through 2012 (note I left out 2013; I understand Standard this year has been uncharacteristically pleasant).

was exciting and memorable, but its power is directly tied to the number and power of one-drop creatures that it could get in Standard. Standard has quite a few right now.



"Right now" as in "in Superstandard"?  For a whole 3 months?  You couldn't give us Ranger of Eos because of an interaction that would exist for 3 whole months?  Well hold the phone there, Charlie, I guess you didn't give us Liliana's Caress + Megrim for 3 whole months, you didn't give us Glistener Elf + Rancor for 3 whole months, I guess you can't give us Ranger of Eos + Doomed Traveler for 3 whole months either.  Oh wait, you did give us those first 2 things.  My mistake.

...we found that casting a miracle of some sort every other turn...leading to incredibly frustrating games.



IT'S A MIRACLE!  R&D figures out that the Miracle mechanic with any form of library manipulation is unfun!  Hooray!  Except they figured it out (I'm guessing) about 1 year ago when testing M14, when the rest of us figured it out 4 months prior when AVR was released.  Oh well, better late than never, I guess...

Because the Accord was only two mana, it was easy to stick one or more before you actually started casting your lifegain spells, ensuring that you could curve into it at maximum efficiency.



Hooray!  R&D was about to send a card to print for Johnnies to build a deck around and not feel like they were flailing in misery constantly!  This story has to have a happy ending for everyone, right?  RIGHT?!

What we quickly found out was that the card was just a larger risk than we were comfortable taking, and we knocked Angelic Accord up to four mana so it would still fulfill what it needed to do in Limited.



*facepalm*


Because the Accord was only two mana, it was easy to stick one or more before you actually started casting your lifegain spells, ensuring that you could curve into it at maximum efficiency.



Hooray!  R&D was about to send a card to print for Johnnies to build a deck around and not feel like they were flailing in misery constantly!  This story has to have a happy ending for everyone, right?  RIGHT?!

What we quickly found out was that the card was just a larger risk than we were comfortable taking, and we knocked Angelic Accord up to four mana so it would still fulfill what it needed to do in Limited.



*facepalm*



Yeah...funny how this was too degenerated, too dangerous, when printing a card like Voice of Resurgence at 2 mana is completely balanced and is not forcing you to print a bunch of removal that exils the target...


And about this "superstandard": Just remove it, if it really limits your option as much as you have told us in this article. Let core sets be 1 exactly year valid for standard and that's it!
I still haven't got over the fact that they thought Burning Vengeance, OF ALL THINGS, would be the best standard deck, which resulted in a lot of very fun and cool strategies to be just outright terrible forever.

IMAGE(http://i1.minus.com/jbcBXM4z66fMtK.jpg)

192884403 wrote:
surely one can't say complex conditional passive language is bad grammar ?
I still haven't got over the fact that they thought Burning Vengeance, OF ALL THINGS, would be the best standard deck[...]

Is it really that hard to believe? "Get a bonus when you {do something that's already good for you}" can be quite good.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

The more I think about it ... Is anything "build around me" automatically bad?  At least for non-creatures?  Is it development's goal that the only theme of a deck can be vaguely-defined aggro, midrange, or control, sometimes enhanced by Tribal?

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

The more I think about it ... Is anything "build around me" automatically bad?  At least for non-creatures?  Is it development's goal that the only theme of a deck can be vaguely-defined aggro, midrange, or control, sometimes enhanced by Tribal?


Are you really just now figuring this out?  This has been true for at least 3 years, probably even longer.
Glad to see official confirmation that creative deckbuilding is officially discouraged, with any useable build-around-me card getting thoroughly nerfed in development. Preventing broken combinations is nice and all, but it would be nice to see some similar concern regarding individual cards. I'd love to believe things like angelic accord were on the verge of breaking standard, but I can't really imagine them standing up to the raw power levels that are readily printed these days. 
 
 
I'm especially annoyed at the treatment Bogbrew witch seems to have gotten. I can see the original values causing some issues*, but that doesn't require simultaneously upping the cc ánd raising the activation cost ánd having the searchables enter tapped. One or two of those tweakings seems sensible, but all three looks ridiculous.


*Although I'd still expect its frailty, summoning sickness, and demand of several deckslots to keep it under control...
The more I think about it ... Is anything "build around me" automatically bad?  At least for non-creatures?  Is it development's goal that the only theme of a deck can be vaguely-defined aggro, midrange, or control, sometimes enhanced by Tribal?


Are you really just now figuring this out?  This has been true for at least 3 years, probably even longer.

Lol. Yeah I guess so.  I mean, I knew they want creatures to be the forefront (which is good).  And I know they set "only X cards are designed to make competitive decks" (which is bad).  I just didn't know they were also sabotaging the alternatives.

I guess I need to add "orthagonal decks" to the list I made last week of things that are no longer wanted because they change the way the game plays out.

Although I'd still like to naievely hold out a little hope.  If Theros is going to be "the enchantment block", maybe a few build-around-me enchantments aren't too much to ask for? 

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

The more I think about it ... Is anything "build around me" automatically bad?  At least for non-creatures?  Is it development's goal that the only theme of a deck can be vaguely-defined aggro, midrange, or control, sometimes enhanced by Tribal?


Are you really just now figuring this out?  This has been true for at least 3 years, probably even longer.

Lol. Yeah I guess so.  I mean, I knew they want creatures to be the forefront (which is good).  And I know they set "only X cards are designed to make competitive decks" (which is bad).  I just didn't know they were also sabotaging the alternatives.

I guess I need to add "orthagonal decks" to the list I made last week of things that are no longer wanted because they change the way the game plays out.

Although I'd still like to naievely hold out a little hope.  If Theros is going to be "the enchantment block", maybe a few build-around-me enchantments aren't too much to ask for? 


Oh, there will be plenty of "build-around-me" enchantments for you.  They will all suck, though.  For examples of some "awesome" build-around-me enchantments, as an example of the power level you should be expecting:

Near-Death Experience
Dragon Appeasement
Confusion in the Ranks

Have fun!
Oh, there will be plenty of "build-around-me" enchantments for you.  They will all suck, though.  For examples of some "awesome" build-around-me enchantments, as an example of the power level you should be expecting:

Near-Death Experience
Dragon Appeasement
Confusion in the Ranks

Have fun!


Just be glad it's too late to include the awesome new You Make The Card. Undecided