3/10/2009 SF: "The Timmy Manifesto"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Serious Fun, which goes live Tuesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
this article is beautiful. also kelly digges looks like justin timberlake.

Sure, winning is fun. Strategy helps you win. Great! But if it isn't fun, Timmy says, don't do it. Magic's not a job. Your deck list isn't a term paper. Magic is fun, and if you're not having fun, you really are doing it wrong.

emphasis mine. people insist on misunderstanding this, from both ends. but it's nice to hear it from a timmy biased source.

i think i have just enough spike in me to be interested in optimizing to get my decks working as effectively as possible...but those decks aren't decks spike would play.
Wait a minute... is this Timmy Week?
it's funny, i'd completely forgotten about the different types of timmies from that column. looking at them again, i'm pretty well-rounded for a timmy (with a good bit of johnny involved, at that).

Power gaming is the best kind of gaming, i have several decks dedicated to the big, smashy and stupid things one can do. In the first timmy, johnny and spike article Rosewater describes timmy as he opens his first verdant force, that's almost exactly how I reacted to the one I opened in a tempest pack. it was a 7/7 that grew his own personal army, i had found heaven.

Social gaming is my favorite type of gaming. my local gaming store closed down in winter of 2007 i think, no warning, just one weekend they were closing, after that they were gone. I actually cried a little when i found out, it just wasn't Magic without all the people and the environment of all these gamers together. I played with a friend on campus after a little while, but it wasn't the same until i found a new store to play at.

Diversity isn't exactly my favorite way to game, but I do find it very hard to play the same deck twice, and love building and writing up lists for new ones. i've also been lured by the siren call of EDH recently.

And adrenaline gaming? "This is a bad hand. I'm keeping," is like my mantra. I have a 20-land deck that has no curve, stuttering around three and four with the meat of it being 6 and over, topping off at Iname as one. it's horribly awesome. I have two mono-red decks that basically need to draw the seething song and mana flare or gauntlet of power to function. there's nothing like winning because you top-decked the third land, allowing you to seething song out the gauntlet that lets you play your dragons and hellions and orggs.
This is the happy swamp. Love it. I am red/blue, I think logically and act impulsively.
I'm a Spike, but I really have to make some timmy decks at some point and just have fun with the game a bit more. Time to make that Krosan Cloudscraper deck and actually cast it.
As an ardent Timmy...

This article is perfect. My favorite decks include a ridiculous Oni deck, a fantastically fun Simic deck, a rather generic but fun to play white-black deck, a Ghost Orzhov deck, a giant (Not the Battle of Wits kind) deck, and a hilariously brutal in multiplayer Guile/Dovescape deck. My favorite decks to play against are my friend's Ninja deck, my friend's land destruction/Magnivore deck, and my friend's simic "beatstick deck", which involves pumping creatures absurdly with Loxodon Warhammer and Moldervine Cloak. What's the part I enjoy the most? Playing against my best friend, of course!

I'm a Spike, but I really have to make some timmy decks at some point and just have fun with the game a bit more. Time to make that Krosan Cloudscraper deck and actually cast it.

Do you have fun playing the game itself (As in having fun even when you lose)? If you do, you're already a Timmy!
I'm a fairly well rounded player but my Timmy and Johnny do usually overwhelm my inner Spike.
I liked this article but I must say I can't wait until Johnny week. COMBOS!
Look at all these Timmies. Playing their creatures, playing their bombs, having *scoff* fun.

But don't worry. Eventually they'll learn. Eventually they'll know better. Magic isn't a game, it's an occupation. It's a full-time job where your only paycheck is the Pro Tour.

So go back to your silly little card game and leave the real playing for... hey, is that a Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker? Awesome, you're facing down a Progenitus?! Wow, that looks like so much... fun!

Rock on, Timmies!
You want a Timmy? You got a Timmy right here. You can look at the decks I carry around with me when I go out to play Magic if you don't believe me.

I guess I might say the ultimate expression of my Timmy-ness is what I did with my elf deck. At one point I had a full set of Wren's Run Vanquishers and a triplet of Overruns, and the deck was consistent and aggressive and won all the time. But then I re-evaluated my strategy and realized that the best part about the elf deck was not the turn 5 wins that came from being the aggro, but the turn 10 wins that came from the critical mass of tokens from Wren's Run Packmaster or Lys Alana Huntmaster or Elvish Promenade. All of my favorite elf cards were left on the sidelines as "win-more" and couldn't do their job, because they didn't get to the battlefield until after the war was over.

So I took out the Overruns because they made me win too quick.

Timmy FTW!

A friend of mine showed me an elf deck he built, asserting that Llanowar Elves was the essential one-mana elf. I basically just looked at him funny, because I really couldn't see how the Lawnmower could beat out powerhouses like Essence Warden and Rhys the Redeemed. To me, the massive, must-answer, life-gaining, token-making machines are just impossible to top. (Maybe Wirewood Symbiote. Or Skullclamp, in moderation.)

And this other deck I've been playing is a green-white concoction I put together out of a bunch of my favorite cards, because there were a few in particular that I was dying to see in play. Not Loxodon Hierarch, not Glare of Subdual (although I did have both of those). Juniper Order Ranger. And not with Kitchen Finks either; no, that would be too cliché. No, Pollenbright Wings. That's right, my main incentive to go green-white was not Glare or Hierarch or Finks, but Pollenbright Wings.

And I have a great story about that combo too. I was playing this three-player game and my brother played his Daru Spiritualist/Starlit Sanctum/Shuko infinite life combo, sacrificing his Spiritualist, and he made the mistake of choosing, as his arbitrarily large number, 3.6 billion life. And I happened to have my Ranger with a pair of Wings in my hand. So with a little math, I deduced that despite his life total being just shy of 2^32, I could still kill him in less than 12 turns. And since the third player was a blue mage with a hand full of permission, there wasn't really anything he could do about it. Ooh man did that feel good.

Everyone else left before I could actually play the thing out though. I guess the math scared them all off.
I must disagree slightly. While it's true that timmy =/= inexperienced etc. I do think that most players start as Timmies.
Zammm = Batman. Bronies unite. "I'd call you a genius, but I'm in the room."
It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.
Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
I must disagree slightly. While it's true that timmy =/= inexperienced etc. I do think that most players start as Timmies.

Well, another way to put it is that a new player is unlikely to be able to satisfy his or her Spike or Johnny tendencies with Magic. Winning is hard when you don't know what you're doing, and building clever decks and making clever plays is difficult before you know the rules well and have a good collection. So a new player really has to be playing for Timmy reasons, because the other two aren't viable options at that point.
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
Well, this article was a breath of fresh air. Good to see that someone understands the Timmy psychograph. Players who play to have fun and/or see others have fun.

However, though I do laude Kelly's effort on showing why some Timmys do not spend much time on mana curves, I feel that it may be the small leak that sinks the boat. What I mean is that it still leaves room for the perception that "Timmys are bad deckbuilders because they are dead-set on thinking that 4-ofs and good land percentage are not fun. How can they be good deckbuilders if every deck they build is inconsistant?" Though I know this is not the intent, I think it comes across as making Timmy sound like someone who stubbornly builds bad decks, and less like a player who chooses to build decks how he likes. The problem might be the example, where timmy is being told how to improve his deck, rather than looking at a pile of cards and putting together the deck that is most fun to him.

Forgive me if I'm being picky, but I do appreciate this article as I feel it does a good job pointing out many things that have gone unsaid until now. In fact, it is good enough that what I said above is the only real problem with it. I personally consider myself a pure timmy, although I used to tack spike onto that because I like to build decks that are low curved and consistent. What I realized is that I do so because I find it more fun to sacrifice some randomness in favor of consistently being able to play every card I draw. Don't get me wrong, I love having versitile, interesting decks that are full of variety. I just don't like to put in cards that I won't be able to play when I draw them. While I do love the big play, I get much more out of playing a well oiled machine. Oh and I'm not a Johnny either. Keep your Zur's Wierdings away!
I dunno, Timmies get efficiency, they even like it. I think what Timmy dosn't give a crap about that Spike does is consistancy and solvability. Look at Manaplasm and Wake Thrasher as examples, they both cost the same, and really do the same kind of thing. When they're working, they're awesome, they'll overwhelm your opponent before he know what the hell is going on, but if they're 1/1s for 3 mana with no evasion or resistance to removal, they kinda suck. That's the kind of randomness that Timmy loves to bits.
A friend of mine showed me an elf deck he built, asserting that Llanowar Elves was the essential one-mana elf. I basically just looked at him funny, because I really couldn't see how the Lawnmower could beat out powerhouses like Essence Warden and Rhys the Redeemed. To me, the massive, must-answer, life-gaining, token-making machines are just impossible to top. (Maybe Wirewood Symbiote. Or Skullclamp, in moderation.)

Eh. I would say that, for an Elf deck, Birchlore Rangers (or maybe Heritage Druid) is better. With it, you can consistently accelerate a lot of good 1-mana Elves (Taunting Elf, Elvish Lyrist, Elvish Scrapper) so that the third-turn Timberwatch Elf, Imperious Prefect, Alpha Status or Elvish Champion becomes all the more devastating. At least, that's how my Elf deck works, and it's pretty insane. You don't really need to attack with the small 1/1 Elves anyway, you want to wait until you get the pumpers.

Anyway, I would identify myself as all three profiles, and on the Timmy side, a Diversity Timmy. I love to build my decks to have a lot of synergy and obscure combos (for example, my Elf deck plays Vitalize and Thousand-Year Elixir to take advantage of the many tap abilities Elves have), I love to build my decks to be very good (Spike), but, most of all, I love to build my decks to have fun. Decks shouldn't be too powerful (if the game is over too quickly, nobody's having fun and the other deck didn't really do what it wants to do). I also love the diversity of Magic, which is shown by the fact that I currently have 42 (soon to be 46) decks, all with their own personality and game plan.
76125763 wrote:
Zindaras' meta is like a fossil, ancient and its secrets yet to be uncovered. Only men of yore, long dead, knew of it.
Timmaaahh!!!!

I always embrace my inner Timmy, whether I'm playing an all-cat deck, or picking cards to fit song lyrics and building a deck out of them*. I have a strong Johnny side too, but there is virtually no spike in there at all.

*We're no strangers to love
You know the rules and so do I
A full commitment's what I'm thinking of
You wouldn't get this from any other guy...
Great, psychographic weeks. I think I'll cycle along then, embracing my timmy side now since from time to time I fit in every psychographic. Now let's see, what shall I try to dig up and make fun with (I mean a magic card of course, what were you thinking there?) Too bad there weren't any decks as examples to fire up my timmy spark. Still, good article, enjoyed reading it.
Thanks, Kelly, for making the defense of Timmy that MaRo could not.

I don't think I'm a Timmy, but I can understand it a lot better after reading your article.
The whole lot of prejudice and misconception comes from the stupid, silly moniker "Timmy".

Me, I'm a Chuck.
The whole lot of prejudice and misconception comes from the stupid, silly moniker "Timmy".

It definitely doesn't help. Nor does the fact that MaRo started things off by making Timmy look like a scrub that no one wants to be seen as.

This article does a better job of defining the type than MaRo's six years of backpedaling, but they need to stop acting like Spikes and Johnnies do not play to have fun. The difference is where the fun comes from, if anything, not that Timmy cares more about fun than winning, which is something Johnnies and most Spikes also share.

This mentality doesn't speak to Timmy. Sure, winning is fun. Strategy helps you win. Great! But if it isn't fun, Timmy says, don't do it. Magic's not a job. Your deck list isn't a term paper. Magic is fun, and if you're not having fun, you really are doing it wrong.

People actually enjoy the deckbuilding process and the tweaking of decks, believe it or not.

Play cards because you like them. Build your deck the way you want to. Make some plays because they're funny, even if they don't necessarily help you win.

Laugh while you're playing. Enjoy your friends' company. Applaud a great play, even if it's the one that crushes you. Tell stories. Scrawl deck lists on every available surface. Make piles of cards for decks until you don't remember what color your table is.

This is called casual Magic, something people of all profiles do enjoy from time to time. It is not the exclusive domain of Timmy.
So I took out the Overruns because they made me win too quick.

Timmy FTW!

Awesome! I've done similar things. Great to find a kindred spirit!

And I have a great story about that combo too. I was playing this three-player game and my brother played his Daru Spiritualist/Starlit Sanctum/Shuko infinite life combo, sacrificing his Spiritualist, and he made the mistake of choosing, as his arbitrarily large number, 3.6 billion life. And I happened to have my Ranger with a pair of Wings in my hand. So with a little math, I deduced that despite his life total being just shy of 2^32, I could still kill him in less than 12 turns. And since the third player was a blue mage with a hand full of permission, there wasn't really anything he could do about it. Ooh man did that feel good.

Everyone else left before I could actually play the thing out though. I guess the math scared them all off.

Wow. That is awesome. I salute you!

(I've done something similar. An Enduring Ideal deck of mine has my all-time favourite combo in it, which I fetched out over the course of 3 turns: Doubling Season, Opalescence, and Followed Footsteps on the Season. I got up to 1031 Seasons in play by the time I won attacking with 11 5/5s. Next turn I would have got over a googol of Seasons. :D )
I don't like to win!

Well, that's not entirely true. I do like to win. But only from a non-winning position. Winning isn't fun. I could build a powerful deck, go for the throat at every turn, but then what's the point? Winning again? Or feeling bad because my super great deck lost, or it wasn't super great after all. Or making my friends feel bad because their deck isn't as good, or because they aren't as good. Or because they really are better than me and I'm just extremely lucky (which is usually the case).

To me, the game is about fun. It's about getting together with friends, showing them what you made, running it out there, and seeing what happens.

It's a social networking puzzle.

PS: I've been known to hold "answer" cards in my hand at least a turn longer than necessary just to see what might happen.
Yes, trying to play all the cards in your hand is wrong! We're treating winning like sex during the Victorian era. Sorry guys, winning isn't everything but losing isn't a virtue, either. Making a decision to play what works is as valid as playing what catches your eye: it is, afterall, just an arbitrary decision.

"Spikes" don't have to be single-minded jerks. Perhaps people legitimately enjoy testing and improving themselves? Perhaps curving-out is as fun to some as dropping a big green monster is to others? Perhaps taking something seriously is a sign of enjoyment to some? Perhaps people of all these dumb psychographics love/hate to be beaten by that insane topdeck?

Play competitively? You might still be a Timmy. Pick decks you like. Treat your opponents like friends instead of enemies. Be the player everybody enjoys playing against, win or lose.

Everyone always picks a deck they'd like to play, though their criteria for choosing it may fall outside the scope of this theme week. And the last two sentences aren't something exclusive to a "Timmy", that's just not being a douche-bag.

I saw a lot of myself described in this article so I took the "official" test again. Turns out I'm a Johnny/Spike! It just goes to show, once again, that these psychographics are meaningless to us as players.

Kelly, I always enjoy your articles, but this week was just a bad topic they forced on you.
I came up as Spike/Timmy (or maybe the other way around) the last time I took MaRo's test, and as such I've found that when you're trying to win the "good" cards take on the level of "awesomeness" usually associated with giant spells and creatures. "It gets any rid of any creature for just one mana? Who cares if it gives my opponent another land? That's sooo good!"
Well, another way to put it is that a new player is unlikely to be able to satisfy his or her Spike or Johnny tendencies with Magic. Winning is hard when you don't know what you're doing, and building clever decks and making clever plays is difficult before you know the rules well and have a good collection. So a new player really has to be playing for Timmy reasons, because the other two aren't viable options at that point.

I don't think that is true, at least for certain Spikes. I'm the type of Spike that plays to test myself. I remember that the first time my cousin introduced me to the game, I was immediately asking the kinds of questions that I always ask when learning a new game (i.e. the kind that help me get better).

"What's the advantage of playing this instead of this? Why would you play it that way? Is what I'm doing right now not as efficient?" Of course I was pretty weak when I first started out, but getting smashed didn't (and still doesn't) deter me as long as I felt like I was improving. So even since the very beginning I was clearly a Spike.
Me, I'm a Chuck.

Eww, Chuck was the name of the guy my friend played in the first round of the first FNM that either of us played in. It was Ravnica/Ravnica/Guildpact draft and Chuck had a deck with Souls of the Faultless and Vertigo Spawn. After playing slowly all match, Chuck tried to play to pressure my friend to play fast at the end. The game ended in a draw. It was excruciating.

Kelly, I always enjoy your articles, but this week was just a bad topic they forced on you.

Is that a joke or did you miss the part where Kelly wrote that this theme week was his idea and that he had had the idea for this column even before the idea for the theme week?

I came up as Spike/Timmy (or maybe the other way around) the last time I took MaRo's test, and as such I've found that when you're trying to win the "good" cards take on the level of "awesomeness" usually associated with giant spells and creatures. "It gets any rid of any creature for just one mana? Who cares if it gives my opponent another land? That's sooo good!"

I can definitely agree with this. The first time I took the test I came up Johnny/Timmy/Spike. Today, I retook both tests and got straight Spike in one and straight Johnny in the other. Because Magic is a game where the objective is to win, things start to get a bit pointless for me when people stray too far from optimal play/deckbuilding (so I'm partly Spike). However, I do like to have fun and encounter unusual play decisions that I haven't seen before (which I believe is my diversity gaming Timmy part). I find that alternative formats or putting extra restrictions on myself (like "make a Standard deck without any rares that can at least finish FNM with a winning record") are good ways to create these situations (I think deckbuilding with an additional challenge is a Johnny trait). For me all three psychographics are usually involved whenever I play. I'd think that's true for most people.
I have enjoyed the articles this week so far (Can't wait for "From the Lab" and BOAB").

I have been playing Magic since the mid 90's and am often the person my friends rush to with rules questions and yes, I am a Timmy (and proud of it). Sometimes I find it even hard to understand Spikes and Johnnies. I can't tell you what I hate worse, dominating a game just so my friend pulls a 3 card combo that ends the game, or my other friend who has to play with a Senei Divining Top in every deck.

This doesn't mean I dislike Johnny/ Spike types, and I certainly know how and when to throw a counter spell, I just choose not to. No fun for me to counter and control everything (unless I can fling it at someone with Stoutarm of course). The only counter deck I have is faires, and that because it's kewl to have a deck of all things fae. I win my fair share of games at the casual table and love my Giant themed deck as well as my Angels and Demons.

It is sometimes hard being a Timmy, because no one takes you seriously at times. If you were to type that you were looking to build a fun Conflux deck as a Timmy, people will either steer you to outragiously priced cards, or tell you to replace that Child of Alara with more crappy removal spells. Sure I don't WANT to lose, but I would rather lose with my Child of Alara sporting 4 enchantments on it (Fists of the Demigod, Steel of the Godhead, Edge of Difinity, Favor of the Overbeing) than to win with Kitchen Finks.
I really enjoyed this article, because it made me realize a lot of things about myself and the people I play with. I read everything MaRo wrote about the three psychographics, yet Kelly expanded on the topic of Timmy in ways I’ve never seen before. I’m a Spike / Timmy, more the former than the latter. As such, I’m the kind of Spike who, in casual games, will constantly give advice to the other players to try and make their decks and their play skill better, and some of them get annoyed by that. Reading the article made me understand better why they do, and now I realize I’m often exaggerating with my advice. I’ll keep giving them some, but only when I think that what I’m suggesting may really improve their fun. For example, if one of my friends seems to have no fun with one of his decks because it constantly is mana screwed, then I’ll suggest him to add lands. But on the other hand, I have to learn to leave alone the adrenaline gamer who also has mana problems but doesn’t care and even thrills on the risk.

As a tournament player, the article strengthened my view of myself as a semi-Timmy. As much as I value winning, for tournaments I’ll always build a deck that fits my style, rather than netdeck the consensus best deck. When I happen to play the consensus best deck, it’s because it’s aggro or aggro-control, which is what fits my tastes better. Also, I enjoy the social aspect of tournaments, I try to be a pleasant opponent, and I always hope to play against the most enjoyable people rather that the easiest to beat. I generally have a good time even if I lose, as long as my opponent is fun to play with. Luckily, most people in our community are sympathetic, and there are only a few jerks I pray to not have to face, because their attitude ruins my fun.
Magic The Gathering DCI Lvl 1 Judge Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
And, as much as I liked the article in general, I was hoping to catch a glimpse of a fun Timmy Multiplayer deck this week. Or at the very least some Timmy Multiplayer interaction stories.
"Applaud a great play, even if it's the one that crushes you."

Amen, brother.
First let me preface this with, I am more or less a Spike/Johnny. First and foremost a deck must win, secondly I prefer a uniquely designed deck that combos and has a wow factor to it rather than a boring agro or net deck or having a fun deck.


That said, the game the last two blocks has become too timmified... I think there are a lack of COMPETITIVE comboloicious cards that were likewise available during say the Time Spiral Era (best block of all time), sure I like to have fun but generally if I am not winning I am not having fun so I am not going to build combo decks that dont win > 50% period (with the exception of multiplayer, this is the casual players format). Big slow creatures are boring and make games take longer than they need.

My advice to wizards make some good competitive combolicious cards that Spike and Johnny type players will like next block.
The problem with many Timmies, is that their ability to have fun is largely decided on what they can get everyone else around them to play. So they will get really upset when their spell gets countered, or their creature destroyed, or they encounter mass removal, and so on. It's a really annoying personality type to deal with sometimes.
That's more of a scrub mentality than a Timmy, I would say. I play with a number of people that consider themselves Timmies that actually understand and appreciate interaction. Sure they are happier when they get to do their thing, but they understand that you need an opponent to play and he is not always going to let you just cast everything or keep it on the board.
I opened a progenitus at the pre-release and I had to play it.



I laughed hard outloud at this. As I was this guy to a tee. I had one and I had to run it.


When did I become a timmy? lol. There are much worse things out there lol.
(I've done something similar. An Enduring Ideal deck of mine has my all-time favourite combo in it, which I fetched out over the course of 3 turns: Doubling Season, Opalescence, and Followed Footsteps on the Season. I got up to 1031 Seasons in play by the time I won attacking with 11 5/5s. Next turn I would have got over a googol of Seasons. :D )

You definitely need some Paradox Hazes in that deck so that you have a chance to get 2^1031 tokens before you attack for lethal.

If you also throw in a Copy Enchantment, copying nothing, with an extra Followed Footsteps on it, then you can make token copies of Paradox Haze every upkeep, and the number of tokens quickly becomes much larger than anything that can be described in terms of any commonly used notation for describing numbers. (If you start with one Season and one Haze, next turn you will have 3 Seasons and 9 Hazes during the first upkeep, and 11 Seasons and 2057 Hazes during the second. The turn after, the number of Seasons will be approximately 2^2^...2^11, where the number of "2^"s is 2057 and the association is right to left. This is a huge, huge number, and you can make it even bigger by using some of the Copy Enchantment copies to copy Footsteps or extra Doubling Seasons.)

This begs the question of what happens if your opponent has an "infinite" life combo, and wants to gain enough life to survive 1000 turns of attacks from animated Doubling Seasons. Clearly the amount of damage you can do is finite, so your opponent can choose a life total large enough, but does he/she actually have to be able to describe said life total in numerical terms?
This begs the question of what happens if your opponent has an "infinite" life combo, and wants to gain enough life to survive 1000 turns of attacks from animated Doubling Seasons. Clearly the amount of damage you can do is finite, so your opponent can choose a life total large enough, but does he/she actually have to be able to describe said life total in numerical terms?

You could try factorials. Last time I had an infinite loop I went with 10^(10^100)! iterations of it. Then you could maybe go with 10^(2^(10^(10^100)!))! if you need to get bigger. I don't know about exact values, but if you stack enough exponents together and toss in some exclamation points, it's really easy to get arbitrarily huge numbers.
Hmm. I'm actually wondering if Graham's number is big enough to work here XD.

I gain something like... 10-->10-->10-->2-->4-->56-->67-->45-->67-->2-->42-->3 =P
Man. They really ruined the Forsythe story by tossing in pictures from the three-color block.

Poor editorial choice on the part of whoever made that (still pretty good) picture.
You could try factorials. Last time I had an infinite loop I went with 10^(10^100)! iterations of it. Then you could maybe go with 10^(2^(10^(10^100)!))! if you need to get bigger. I don't know about exact values, but if you stack enough exponents together and toss in some exclamation points, it's really easy to get arbitrarily huge numbers.

X! grows faster than 2^X, but not as fast as 2^(2^X). Hence, you'd need hundreds of exponentials and factorials to get the number of copies of Doubling Season that you'd have after 2 turns, let alone 100.

Hmm. I'm actually wondering if Graham's number is big enough to work here XD.

I gain something like... 10-->10-->10-->2-->4-->56-->67-->45-->67-->2-->42-->3 =P

This, on the other hand, would probably work.
The problem with many Timmies, is that their ability to have fun is largely decided on what they can get everyone else around them to play. So they will get really upset when their spell gets countered, or their creature destroyed, or they encounter mass removal, and so on. It's a really annoying personality type to deal with sometimes.

Nooooo counterspells and mass removal, -that's- annoying to play against sometimes ;)
Hee, yay, it's the "how huge can your numbers go" question.
ToothyWiki's page MagicTheGathering/ComboMeThis has a discussion of that (inspired by this old thread from before the boards moved - find UyOwned's post). What's the greatest amount of mana you can make by turn 6, with just the 13 cards you've drawn by that point, and with no infinite combo?
Recall that a^^b = a^(a^(...a tower b high...(a^a)...)). So 2^^3 = 2^2^2 = 2^4 = 16; and 3^^2 = 3^3 = 27; and 3^^3 = 3^(3^3) = 3^27 = 7,625,597,484,987.
This notation can be extended to a^^^b = a^^(a^^(...a tower b high...(a^^a)...)). It can be extended even further, but this'll do for now.
2 ^^^ 2 is 2^^2 = 2^2 = 4.
2 ^^^ 3 is 2^^4 = 2^^4 = 2^2^2^2 = 65536
2 ^^^ 4 is 2^^65536 = 2^2^2^(...65536 levels...)^2^2.
And remember, the top 4 levels of this tower make 65536. The 5th level down is 2^65536, which has nearly 20000 digits. There are another 65531 levels to go. This 2^^^4 is one absurd, unimaginably large number.)
2 ^^^ 5 is 2^^ that number, which is a tower that high of 2s.
2 ^^^ 13 is how many creatures this guy makes on turn 6, using only 13 cards.

This is probably going a bit beyond "Timmy" and into "Maths geek", though...
The problem with many Timmies, is that their ability to have fun is largely decided on what they can get everyone else around them to play. So they will get really upset when their spell gets countered, or their creature destroyed, or they encounter mass removal, and so on. It's a really annoying personality type to deal with sometimes.

I agree with that first part 100%.

My friend is a Timmy-type player, but every time he gets excited for his 135/135 creature I just PtE and he cries. It's fun to put a Nicol Bolas in your deck to use it's ultimate, but if you die 99.9% of the time before you get a chance to play it whats the fun in that?

I probably don't know enough about the personality, but it seems to me Timmys can't be competitive because what they want out of the game for fun factor can never be had in a sanctioned environment.

I rarely get to play casually (to let my inner Timmy come out so to speak) because it's hard to coordinate my friends in one space on a regular basis to have fun with various game types. So all my decks are built around competitive play where I go play at my weekly events and tend to be much less fun to play against when I play casually with my friends.
According to everyone on these forums. You should only play the best decks in whatever format you want. You are a bad player and should just quit if you intend on using anything else.