2/4/2009 FtL: "Revisit Day"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's From the Lab, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
I think Charmed Pendant was the rare in the very first booster I opened, and even then I figured I'd been cheated out of a rare. I'm glad someone found a ridiculous combo to use it in.

Edit: On a sidenote, I'm really hoping I open several Master Transmuter and partner rares when my Conflux box gets in. That deck would be much fun.
I always love it when infinite combos using silly pieces are found. That one is golden.
I have yet to play with any Conflux, but am just dying to try this out when I do:

Esperzoa, Parasitic Strix, black permanent.
I always love it when infinite combos using silly pieces are found. That one is golden.

Haha this combo is amazing.
Yep, this combo is wonderful. I just opened a Charmed Pendant the other day, this is definitely going to inspire me to try and find a home for it.
I have five Charmed Pendants. Odyssey was not kind to me, as you might infer. I've been plotting to use Progenitus with them for a while, especially for a WUBRG deck, but Filigree Sages may just be the card I've been looking for to push it up a level!

Of course, you know... you can always Pendant a Progenitus to play another copy of the big hydra. And it's awfully hard to lose the game when you pull out a turn 4-5 10/10 with protection from everything.
I have five Charmed Pendants. Odyssey was not kind to me, as you might infer. I've been plotting to use Progenitus with them for a while, especially for a WUBRG deck, but Filigree Sages may just be the card I've been looking for to push it up a level!

Of course, you know... you can always Pendant a Progenitus to play another copy of the big hydra. And it's awfully hard to lose the game when you pull out a turn 4-5 10/10 with protection from everything.

Yes, strange he didn't use that with the card that puts 3 creatures on top of the library, draw one then pendant the second to cast the 1st.
Great combos, but I'm still a bit unsure of the last one... is it actually possible to do that? I mean, since there's a replacement effect the card never goes to the graveyard so... how do we check the mana cost? Or does it work with some kind of memory (like looking back in time to what the card was suppose to be?

If this really works I think Heed the mists may be a nice addition to the deck...

Good luck everyone!
Great combos, but I'm still a bit unsure of the last one... is it actually possible to do that? I mean, since there's a replacement effect the card never goes to the graveyard so... how do we check the mana cost? Or does it work with some kind of memory (like looking back in time to what the card was suppose to be?

It still sees the card...even though it never went to the graveyard, it still knows that the card it flipped was Progenitus. Nowhere on the Pendant does it state that the mana is in any way conditional on the card being sent to or being in the graveyard.


Yes, strange he didn't use that with the card that puts 3 creatures on top of the library, draw one then pendant the second to cast the 1st.

You and I both know that's just way too simple.
As long as you're a giant Magic fan, particularly in the game aspects of crazy combos, synergy, aloofness, and general wackiness, you're in good hands.

aloofness? i feel like this was one of those "find the one that doesn't belong" puzzles.

I have yet to play with any Conflux, but am just dying to try this out when I do:

Esperzoa, Parasitic Strix, black permanent.

it's fun. get the intro pack, which has an unusually fun synergy along those lines. i bounced the strix and also the faerie mechanist, which is a lot more exciting when you can do the effect over and over and over...
I got a deck pretty similar to the first one at my pre-release. Sadly no Master Transmuter or Inkwell Leviathan, but I did open a Tezzeret the Seeker, a Sphinx Summoner, and several Sanctum Gargoyles. It was a pretty sweet combo, and I took third! There were some awesome synergies, and the deck listed in the article should be really cool.
I had a dumb question. In the first deck, there were some Tidehollow Sculler tricks with Master Transmuter. If the Sculler, which is in play and already removed a card from an opponent's hand, leaves play using the Transmuter's ability, wouldn't the opponent get back his original card that was removed? Or maybe this is stacked in such a way that he doesn't get the removed card back?
I had a dumb question. In the first deck, there were some Tidehollow Sculler tricks with Master Transmuter. If the Sculler, which is in play and already removed a card from an opponent's hand, leaves play using the Transmuter's ability, wouldn't the opponent get back his original card that was removed? Or maybe this is stacked in such a way that he doesn't get the removed card back?

It is stacked so that the opponent never gets his card back. You put the Sculler into play and the trigger to remove a card goes onto the stack. You respond to that by using the Transmuter to put the Sculler back into your hand, which puts the remove-from-play trigger on the stack, above the comes-into-play trigger. Since the stack resolves Last In First Out, you first resolve the remove-from-play trigger, so whatever card was removed from the game with the Sculler goes back into your opponent's hand - only one hasn't yet been removed. That resolves (fizzles, I reckon), then the comes-into-play trigger resolves and tells you to remove a card fin someone's hand from the game. You do so, and then it never comes back.
This forum shouldn't have been made active until it was finished. There's just no excuse for this piece of garbage.
"Borken" is my new favorite word.
Since the stack resolves Last In First Out, you first resolve the remove-from-play trigger, so whatever card was removed from the game with the Sculler goes back into your opponent's hand - only one hasn't yet been removed. That resolves (fizzles, I reckon)...

The informal term "fizzles" specifically refers to a targeted spell or ability being countered by the rules because it no longer has a legal target when it would resolve.

Tidehollow Sculler's leaves-play ability doesn't fizzle - it simply resolves without doing anything.
The informal term "fizzles" specifically refers to a targeted spell or ability being countered by the rules because it no longer has a legal target when it would resolve.

Tidehollow Sculler's leaves-play ability doesn't fizzle - it simply resolves without doing anything.

Thanks for the correction - although I put it in parens next to the correct word because it's the word many casual players use when referring to an ability or spell that ends up not being able to do anything. I should have also included quotation marks, to further underscore the fact that it's not the correct word under the rules, only the slang word used in that situation.
This forum shouldn't have been made active until it was finished. There's just no excuse for this piece of garbage.
Hmm perhaps another combo for Charmed Pendant would be Kaleidostone then you only need to worry about adding colorless 5 mana and some change to play a Ultimatium.
- it simply resolves without doing anything.

So... It fizzles, basically.

That's the fun thing about informal terms. They're informal. They can mean any number of things. I personally define it as "verb: fails to not fail."
So... It fizzles, basically.

That's the fun thing about informal terms. They're informal. They can mean any number of things. I personally define it as "verb: fails to not fail."

Hey, be nice to the artillery dude. He's quite good at clearing up rules issues and his intentions are always good. The way I typed that was confusing, and heading that off at the pass is a good thing, not a bad one.
This forum shouldn't have been made active until it was finished. There's just no excuse for this piece of garbage.
Yay. I discovered Sludge Strider for the first time when it was passed to me in a booster at the prerelease, and I immediately loved it. The Master Transmuter / Esperzoa combos are one natural way to go, but there's another route: the Puppet Conjurer / Thopter Squadron / Tetravus / Pentavus interactions, along with things that care about artifacts/creatures going to the graveyard, such as Disciple of the Vault or Sadistic Glee. Arcbound Crusher is quite terrifying in this deck, as well as some of the other cards you mentioned in the Master Transmuter previews such as Serum Tank. Terrarion is a delightful inclusion in a Sludge Strider deck: it fixes mana to cast the Strider, or cantrips through the deck draining your opponent for 2 if you've already got a Strider out.

There's another delighful Limited combo on a similar theme that I got played against me at the prerelease: Esperzoa + Kaleidostone. Never pop the 'stone, just keep on drawing a card every turn.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I'd prioritise Thousand-Year Elixir above Rings of Brighthearth: though the Rings can be used on more things, the Elixir's cheaper to use, lets the two activations be on different turns, and crucially, prevents the one turn of summoning-sick vulnerability that you otherwise get with the Master Transmuter, Metallurgeon, and so on.
Hey, be nice to the artillery dude. He's quite good at clearing up rules issues and his intentions are always good. The way I typed that was confusing, and heading that off at the pass is a good thing, not a bad one.

Hey, I was being nice. I didn't threaten his person or make disparaging remarks about the marital status of his parents at the time of his conception or anything.

I'm behaving. You hush.
So... It fizzles, basically.

That's the fun thing about informal terms. They're informal. They can mean any number of things. I personally define it as "verb: fails to not fail."

No, it does not fizzle. It may be an informal term, but it is still defined by the Comprehensive Rules:

Fizzle (Informal)
The term “fizzle” is an informal term, used for when a spell or ability was countered as a result of all its targets being missing or illegal when it resolved. See rule 413.2a.
No, it does not fizzle. It may be an informal term, but it is still defined by the Comprehensive Rules:

Fizzle (Informal)
The term “fizzle” is an informal term, used for when a spell or ability was countered as a result of all its targets being missing or illegal when it resolved. See rule 413.2a.

I used to work really hard at informing people about the right word to use in particular situations - and I always prefer to be corrected when I'm using a term improperly. I've had to learn, however, that there are just some people who prefer to use terms differently, and when they're a casual player, they're often uninterested in learning the correct term, or learning to use a term in the correct way. This pains me greatly, but I've had to face the fact that there are things I'll never be able to correct for some people. I'd use a term other than 'fizzle' in this instance but that wouldn't help clarification because too many people use 'fizzle' in a way other than that specified in the CR - the same as some people use the term "monster" in place of "creature" and many other similar things.

My previous motto was "If you can't beat 'em, beat em harder." Now it's "If you can't beat 'em, at least try to understand them and help them understand you." It's the best I can do.
This forum shouldn't have been made active until it was finished. There's just no excuse for this piece of garbage.
Yay. I discovered Sludge Strider for the first time when it was passed to me in a booster at the prerelease, and I immediately loved it. The Master Transmuter / Esperzoa combos are one natural way to go, but there's another route: the Puppet Conjurer / Thopter Squadron / Tetravus / Pentavus interactions, along with things that care about artifacts/creatures going to the graveyard, such as Disciple of the Vault or Sadistic Glee. Arcbound Crusher is quite terrifying in this deck, as well as some of the other cards you mentioned in the Master Transmuter previews such as Serum Tank. Terrarion is a delightful inclusion in a Sludge Strider deck: it fixes mana to cast the Strider, or cantrips through the deck draining your opponent for 2 if you've already got a Strider out.

There's another delighful Limited combo on a similar theme that I got played against me at the prerelease: Esperzoa + Kaleidostone. Never pop the 'stone, just keep on drawing a card every turn.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I'd prioritise Thousand-Year Elixir above Rings of Brighthearth: though the Rings can be used on more things, the Elixir's cheaper to use, lets the two activations be on different turns, and crucially, prevents the one turn of summoning-sick vulnerability that you otherwise get with the Master Transmuter, Metallurgeon, and so on.

There's one other card that's begging to be used with Sludge Strider: Carnival of Souls. If you can put lots of artifact creatures into play, the mana from the Carnival pays for the Strider, and the life gain from the Strider offsets the life loss from the Carnival. The net result is that your opponent loses 1 life for each artifact creature.

The question, of course, is how to get all those artifact creatures. Perhaps an engine using cards like Myr Servitor, Genesis Chamber, and Spawning Pit would work. Between the free 1 life loss per artifact creature, the additional life drain (using the mana you already have) whenever you sacrifice an artifact creature, and just plain attacking, this could lead to a quick death for your opponent.
goblinrecruiter at wins life. Someone has finally found a use for Carnival of Souls!
There's one other card that's begging to be used with Sludge Strider: Carnival of Souls. If you can put lots of artifact creatures into play, the mana from the Carnival pays for the Strider, and the life gain from the Strider offsets the life loss from the Carnival. The net result is that your opponent loses 1 life for each artifact creature.

The question, of course, is how to get all those artifact creatures. Perhaps an engine using cards like Myr Servitor, Genesis Chamber, and Spawning Pit would work. Between the free 1 life loss per artifact creature, the additional life drain (using the mana you already have) whenever you sacrifice an artifact creature, and just plain attacking, this could lead to a quick death for your opponent.

Aww, you remembered Davvol's birthday! Have a birthday cookie.
No, it does not fizzle. It may be an informal term, but it is still defined by the Comprehensive Rules:

Fizzle (Informal)
The term “fizzle” is an informal term, used for when a spell or ability was countered as a result of all its targets being missing or illegal when it resolved. See rule 413.2a.

I used to work really hard at informing people about the right word to use in particular situations - and I always prefer to be corrected when I'm using a term improperly. I've had to learn, however, that there are just some people who prefer to use terms differently, and when they're a casual player, they're often uninterested in learning the correct term, or learning to use a term in the correct way. This pains me greatly, but I've had to face the fact that there are things I'll never be able to correct for some people. I'd use a term other than 'fizzle' in this instance but that wouldn't help clarification because too many people use 'fizzle' in a way other than that specified in the CR - the same as some people use the term "monster" in place of "creature" and many other similar things.

My previous motto was "If you can't beat 'em, beat em harder." Now it's "If you can't beat 'em, at least try to understand them and help them understand you." It's the best I can do.

Well, Kyrna, in typical fashion, said what I was about to say, only much nicer.

It's worth pointing out that I'm not Kyrna.

The comprehensive rules can go f**k themselves. Fizzle means "Did not work."

Period.

If you felt like being an Uber-Melvin rules tool about, I'm sure you could find a way to define it that suits your ends. But in doing so, you're missing the point that it's an informal term. Informal. As in, not formal. With no formal definition. It can mean anything. Within reason.

Look; If you played a Squall, and I played a Countersquall, and then someone else played another Countersquall targeting your Squall for some reason, than my spell fails to do anything. It fizzles. Easy. We both know what I'm talking about.

But now say you're in the middle of a big combo. If I Shatter a piece of it at just the right moment, than the whole thing fails to go off. It fizzles. We still both know what I'm talking about.

You can argue about it 'til you're blue in the breasts, but it won't do you any good. But the fact is, arguing over slang is roughly equivalent to getting mad at a person for speaking in a different accent.